Four Hours: The Nürburgring 4Hr Companion & Competition

[Famine]

This is what the Countach does on every 4th and 5th lap of a stint:

It's as mad as a box of frogs - I had 27 attempts at that corner (Eschbach to Brünnchen, for reference) and I only didn't leave two huge black stripes twice. Oh and it has the best horn in the game.

I have to say, the XJ13 idea is most tempting for my next effort, but I'm looking to pare the Sport Soft benchmark back to 485PP or so. I actually think Speccy, the MX-5 from my first write-up, would bang out the times but I like to vary my cars and I'm going for as close to stock as I can each time

 

[bonobo4]

Nice driving there Famine. That must have been hard to control with worn tyres!

I have a RUF CTR2 '96 in the UCD, should I buy it? I see it is a possible AI car but is it competitive enough for this race?

 

[Famine]

Yes, very much so.

I noticed the AI Ruf CTR2 used almost all of its fuel in its five lap stint - no more than 10 litres remaining - so it might be a fight for gas, but it's easily fast enough. In the AI hands it also ripped its front tyres to shreds.

 

[bonobo4]

That's a problem I have noticed in other Endurances. Even if I use RH Tyres I still seem to use up tyres faster than the AI. It can't be they use them to the limit, because I pit as soon as I get tyre steer. So either the AI shred their tyres but control them very well (I don't see them crashing when they're about to pit) or I use tyres up far too quickly (which seems unlikely, but if so how do you make them last longer)?

 

[Famine]

The AI can use far less grip, simply because they are all the driving aids. If you slapped TCS, ASM, ABS, SRF on and had a reaction time of 0.002s, you'd be able to use one bar of tyres too

The Art Morrison Corvette, Opera 350Z, Nismo Z-Tune and RE Amemiya RX-7 all had no bars of tyre left on the rear at all when they pitted. Largely they ran out right at the end of the lap, but the Corvette ran out of tyres at Karussell on his last lap every time. This meant lots of crashing


The key to tyre preservation is smoothness. Feed the steering lock on and off, feed the power in and press the brakes. Be the Button.

 

[bonobo4]

So is it perfectly normal how the AI last around 25-50% longer with the same tyres?

 

[Famine]

Yep. They wear them at about the same rate (sometimes a little harder), but they can use less - I pit in at half for anything other than a FWD car.

I'll take a photo of the Corvette's tyres on my replay tomorrow.

 

[bonobo4]

Okay I'm feeling worried now. The worst average lap time for the RUF CTR2 is 9:16.884. With RH on Practice I did (I did go off twice, once after the end of the straight after Galgenkopf somehow I seemed to spin out after braking from 186mph, not even top speed and another I don't remember where) a 9:52.741. Without these incidents it would have still been slower. Do the AI use RM by any chance?

Oh and, for your information, in the GT-R Record Trophy, you need a 7:29.03 or better with a Nissan GT-R '07 on the Nordschleife with SH or worse tyres. My best after many attempts (10+) was a 7:40. I just seem to be far too slow on the 'Ring. I hope this isn't the case on all tracks.

 

[Famine]

Yes, all AI use Racing Mediums in this event.

As a note, due to a quirk of GT5's tyre physics, soft tyres are both grippiest and longest-lived - tyre wear is calculated through a combination of distance travelled and slip. Harder tyres slip more and so they wear more. Go figure.

 

[Onboy123]

Hmm……Famine, how about trying this car?

 

[W3H5]

Quick question for GTSail or Famine -

Did you guys sit through the whole replay flicking through car listings measuring times and specs......... or did you do it on the fly by pausing the game while racing?

I've got a full replay of mine an intend to write a report. It's seems a bit daunting to sit through 4 hours of race replay making notes is all.

 

[Famine]

Hmm……Famine, how about trying this car with this setup? Should be intresting with only 450PP to play with…
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=5624947 (Yes, I could have hyperlinked it, but I don't know how and everyone refuses to teach me)

Nah, I'm avoid excessively tuned cars. I like to play with cars in their native forms so I get all of their quirks and flaws. Besides, I've done low PP now. I'm moving onto crap tyres. (Edit: I've just picked up in the 470-490PP range, two V8 Esprits, a TVR T350 and a TVR Griffith, and a 550PP Jaguar XJ220 to give Sport Hards a bash; I've also found a low 400PP car that might lower the Racing Soft benchmark, but I'll need to test it)

Nested link version:

[url=http://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=5624947]This car[/url]

Generates:

This car

Quick question for GTSail or Famine -

Did you guys sit through the whole replay flicking through car listings measuring times and specs......... or did you do it on the fly by pausing the game while racing?

I've got a full replay of mine an intend to write a report. It's seems a bit daunting to sit through 4 hours of race replay making notes is all.

I've never watched more than eight laps of a replay, and that was to see when the Mine's Evo pitted.

I take photos. I photo the start lineup, the "result" and every third lap of my own times - plus I have a notepad next to my rig. The eight cars placing around you are displayed at all times, which helps keep track of race orders, so you know who you're passing and can guess who you're lapping.

The result can be wrong due to timed endurance rules - in my last race the Mine's was listed last on 23 laps and the Amuse Carbon R second last on 25 laps because they were the only two cars who hadn't finished their four hours and then crossed the line. The reality was the Mine's was last on 24 laps and over eight minutes down (he started lap 24 at 3:58) and the Carbon R was eighth on 26 laps and seven minutes down (he started lap 26 at 3:58 too). Had I not been keeping track of who I lapped and when, I'd have reported the wrong result and the wrong race speed for them.

 

[bonobo4]

Thanks for that thing about RS Tyres, but what about this bit?

Okay I'm feeling worried now. The worst average lap time for the RUF CTR2 is 9:16.884. With RH on Practice I did (I did go off twice, once after the end of the straight after Galgenkopf somehow I seemed to spin out after braking from 186mph, not even top speed and another I don't remember where) a 9:52.741. Without these incidents it would have still been slower.

I am actually kinda scared by this. Should I just try the lap again on RS and hope for the best or am I actually really slow?

Okay after using RS Tyres and with two spins/offs I did a 9:15.941. With a clean lap I reckon I could get a 9:10, which sounds to me to be competitive.

 

[Famine]

It doesn't sound too bad to me. The Countach was running 9'25 laps on Sport Hard, 8'55 on Sport Softs and there seems to be little appreciable difference in cornering speeds between that and my first run in Speccy on Racing Softs.

 

[bonobo4]

My mistake, that 9:15.941 was with RS. But it should be competitive enough? That's good to know, because whilst that car isn't easiest to drive (easy enough) it is fun to drive.

 

[Famine]

Really, you need 9'12 laps or better in the race to account for pit stops. We've found it helps to be nearer 9'08 most of the time in case of error.

 

[bonobo4]

Well this sucks. I'm using a very fast car with RS Tyres driving at my limit and I'm still 8 seconds too slow.

 

[HaylRayzor]

Well this sucks. I'm using a very fast car with RS Tyres driving at my limit and I'm still 8 seconds too slow.

It sounds to me like you're driving beyond the limits of the car and tires. Remember these are street cars. Take it easy. Slow down in the turns. Any sliding is going to hurt your lap time. And never turn your tires red in an endurance race.

Keep your eyes up. Your focus should be down the track. When you enter a corner you should be looking at the exit of the corner, or as far through the corner as you can see. Staring at the track in front of you will cause you to make constant corrections trying to stay on line. That slows you down and kills your tires.

Don't brake and turn at the same time. Tires have a limited amount of traction and you have to keep that in mind. The more the wheels are turned the less brake you can use, and vice versa.

 

[Famine]

Try something a little less wayward first. Walk before run and all that. I'm itching to give an Impreza 22B a run on race softs and I reckon it'd be a good start.

(Edit: I've just picked up in the 470-490PP range, two V8 Esprits, a TVR T350 and a TVR Griffith, and a 550PP Jaguar XJ220 to give Sport Hards a bash; I've also found a low 400PP car that might lower the Racing Soft benchmark, but I'll need to test it)

And the Jag is gold. 9'05 out of the box on the Sport Hards, so that's my next run sorted. Just need to Matte Purple it

It's a bit heavy - 1372kg - so it might chew up the tyres and drink the gas, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

The Esprits and TVRs can't cut it on hards and the T350 is geared to just 152mph so that's out for the softs. I'll give the Griffith a whirl post-Jag.

 

[bonobo4]

It sounds to me like you're driving beyond the limits of the car and tires. Remember these are street cars. Take it easy. Slow down in the turns. Any sliding is going to hurt your lap time. And never turn your tires red in an endurance race.

Keep your eyes up. Your focus should be down the track. When you enter a corner you should be looking at the exit of the corner, or as far through the corner as you can see. Staring at the track in front of you will cause you to make constant corrections trying to stay on line. That slows you down and kills your tires.

Don't brake and turn at the same time. Tires have a limited amount of traction and you have to keep that in mind. The more the wheels are turned the less brake you can use, and vice versa.

RS Tyres are Racing tyres not street tyres.

 

[GTsail]

....
Did you guys sit through the whole replay flicking through car listings measuring times and specs......... or did you do it on the fly by pausing the game while racing?....

I take race notes as I drive. I think it helps break up the length of the race, and its easier to remember the important points. I pause the game a few seconds after anything interesting happens, though sometimes I wait to get to a safe place on the track, because if you don't happen to remember where you are when you re-start, you can immediately drive off into the weeds!

I have only once watched the 4 hour re-play to the end. If we had the 3x fast-forward, then I would be more likely to watch this more often.

Respectfully,
GTsail

 

[Famine]

sometimes I wait to get to a safe place on the track

That'll be Dottinger Hohe then

 

[bonobo4]

Off-topic, but how many times have you lapped the Ring? I must've done around 500 Laps with B-Spec included, but even I can't remember all the names of the corners. I know the Karussel, Galgenkopf, Gottinger Hohe, Aremburg and that's it.

 

[Famine]

Well... I've done the 24 hour race in GT4, my Bobs have done the 24 hour race in GT5, I've finished all of A-Spec in GT4 and GT5, done the four hour race five times (Bobs have done it once) and tested twenty or so cars for it... Probably about 500 myself and a couple hundred Bobs.

I wouldn't say I can remember all of the corners, but I can remember the ones I like and the ones I crash at a lot. Have a go at the AMG Driving Academy in Special Events - it brings the corner names up for you on the Beginner challenge.

 

[ItsHim]

Off-topic, but how many times have you lapped the Ring?

Sorry for that awfull post. My iPhone did it I swear edited:

A thousand times for sure.

Though around only 50 to 80 in full attack mode in GT5. Maybe another 100 in GT4 and the rest goes to mainly FM2 (online races) and Shift.

I'd say try to gold the AMG event with the SLS in the dry first. You'd be surprised how much time can be found in the different sectors.
Once you've done that, run the Arcade stock GT-R challenge and gold it. I still find physics more refined and challenging and fun in Arcade Mode than GT life mode.

Don't take Famine, GT Sail or even me as a benchmark. Speaking only for myself, I'm a Nordschleife maniac You'll get there eventually!

 

[HaylRayzor]

RS Tyres are Racing tyres not street tyres.

I said street CARS my good man. Meaning they don't have the grip of a race car, even if you put race tires on them.


I ran the 4 hour again today in a different car, 510PP this time.

Again the R8 LMS was in the field. I actually restarted several times until I got the R8. I like the faster race pace.

Part of the race I ran on race hard, and part on race medium. It turned out to be a VERY close race at the end, and the outcome was very much in doubt. I am in the process of writing the report.

 

[W3H5]

For my next run I'll take breaks and make notes. I feel it gets in the way of the realism a bit but the last time I did it I was gagging for a smoke after an hour. I'll make cigarette breaks into note taking breaks.
Planning on using a real basic car with very little tuning on RH for the next one, possibly Monday; a Honda Civic maybe. Anything that anyone can reccomend?

 

[ItsHim]

Just a little piece of info for pit strategy - I'm going to need one because in my test run my car used up 13 litres a lap!

I meassured the pit time from when the AI takes over entering the pits to when the player regains controll on exit.

Refuelling should be 1.5 litres per second.

Pit entry to full halt 15 seconds; changing tyres 9 seconds; pit exit 7 seconds. That's ~ 31 seconds plus any additional fuel and time lost due to Pit Lane speed limit.

Keep up the good work guys!

 

[HaylRayzor]

OK my latest run at the 4 hours:
Me:
Lotus 111R
510PP
277hp
834 kilos
RM and RH tires
28 laps
TRT 4hr 8'08

2nd place: R8 LMS
TRT 4hr 8'13
Average lap 8'51.9

…….My time….Gap…Difference to LMS
Lap 1: 8’55.4 -23.6 -23.6
Lap 2: 8’44.6 -41.5 -17.9
Lap 3: 8’48.0 -59.1 -17.6
Lap 4: 8’48.5 -1’11.5 -12.4
Lap 5: 8’51.6 -3.0 +1’8.5 ...15 liters Switch to RM
Lap 6: 9’02.5 -13.8 -10.8
Lap 7: 8’38.4 -21.4 -7.6 ...4 wheels off at pflanzgarten
Lap 8: 8’37.4 -30.3 -8.9
Lap 9: 8’38.2 -32.3 -2.0
Lap 10: 8’56.1 +14.5 +46.8 ...Spun at schwedenkreuz 40 liters
Lap 11: 9’32.3 -5.4 -19.9 ...Caught sight of his headlights at Kesselchen. He was entering the Karussel as I was leaving it. I gave him room and he went by at Eschbach. He caught the Morrison vette at schwalbenschwanz and I passed it at Kleines Karussel.
Lap 12: 8’37.7 -15.0 -9.6 ...Lapped GT Fairlady Z at Galgenkopf
Lap 13: 8’40.6 -25.4 -10.4 ...Caught the curb exiting Galgenkopf and slid sideways, losing 10mph.
Lap 14: 8’50.1 -38.9 -13.5 ...Lapped GT Skyline going into Karussel a few seconds past the 2 hour mark. Looped it in Hohenrain.
Lap 15: 8’46.4 +28.2 +1’07.1 ...20 liters
Lap 16: 9’09.4 +14.9 -13.3 ...First full lap in the lead
Lap 17: 8’37.6 +5.0 -9.9 ...Lapped the Yellow Bird at Dreifach Rechts. It was beat up and spun as I passed it. Could see LMS headlights on Dottinger Hoe
Lap 18: 8’36.5 -0.4 -5.4 ...Stayed ahead all lap until the front stretch. LMS just barely caught up to me on dottinger hoe and passed me on pit straight.
Lap 19: 8’41.5 +3.6 +4.0 ...By making maximum use of the curbs passed LMS back at Veedol. Stayed in the lead for the full lap. Lapped a white Mines on the outside in the Karussel. Came across 3 cars. G37, other white Mines, silver 350Z at Schwalbenschwanz. Mines followed me down Dottinger and crossed the line behind me. LMS behind the Mines.
Lap 20: 8’44.6 +1.26.2 +1’29.8 ...Mines followed me through the GP course. In my rear view I saw the LMS nip the Mines at Haztenbach. Lapped CT230R on dottinger. 20 liters
Lap 21: 9’15.3 +1’18.9 -7.3 ...Came out of the pits right behind white Mines. Silver Z and white Mines right behind me. Re-lapped the Mines in the arena.
Lap 22: 8’50.9 +49.1 -29.2 ...Came up to lap the CT230 at schwedenkreuz, spun again. Lapped the CT230 again at Kallenhard.
Lap 23: 8’43.6 -2.5 -51.6 ...Pitted early. Switched back to racing hard 40 liters
Lap 24: 9’33.3 -19.3 -16.8 ...Came out of pits just as LMS went by, followed by CTR-2. Relapped the CTR-2 at Hocheichen. Relapped the CT230 at Brünnchen.
Lap 25: 8’49.9 +8.9 +25.7 ...Passed the LMS just before Kleines Karussel.
Lap 26: 8’53.6 +26.1 +50.3 ...LMS came out of the pits 1’16 behind.
Lap 27: 8’53.2 +36.7 -39.3 ...Crossed the line with 42 seconds to go.
Lap 28: 8’51.1 +5.6 -31.1 ...Surprised myself by running this quick lap on worn tires. I was seriously motivated not to lose.

My fictionalized account of the race can be found here: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=215096

 

[W3H5]

I read your fiction which was rather good. The question I have, I want to ask is, the 111R, is it too much for the competition? I've been putting in 7.49 laps around the north loop for the seasonals on SS, I've a feeling this eliminates the actual 'race'. Can you confirm?

I'm thinking for my next run (Tomorrow) I'd use a Masarati Gran Turismo, stock apart from 'box and sports suspension. Any thoughts? I can be the thread test dummy for the next run.