Front end grip!!!

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OK here is the questions. Say on a front engine rear wheel drive car I wana ask how to gain the most front end grip for online racing.. We all know that a higher front spring or camber near 2.0 to 2.5 will give better front grip. But I wana ask about dampers and sway bars.. Dont need any info about the rear got that figured out. I know how to make the rear looser or tighter this is just about the front. First dampers. Does a high damper setting say 8 ext and a 8 comp on the front give better grip or a lower setting say 4 ext and 4 comp give better grip. Or a large split say 8 ext and 4 comp or even reversed say 4 ext and 8 comp give better grip. Or is it impossible to just set the front dampers to get the max front grip without messing with the rear. Some say the only way to get the front to turn is to have the front comp higher than the rear comp. Second roll bars. Does a large front roll bar give more front grip or a small front roll bar give more grip. Or is it reversed does a large rear roll bar give more front grip or a small rear roll bar give more front grip. Tire wear dosent matter just looking at dampers and roll bars what would give the best turn in and mid corner grip and not worry about how it affects the rear.. Also toe does negative toe help turn in and mid corner grip or does positive front toe give more turn in and mid corner grip. I dont care if it slows response down but gives an overall more grip whats the best front settings to gain the most front grip with toe, dampers, and rollbars without being concerned about makeing the rear looser or tighter. Seems its very hard to gain front grip and lot easier to make the car looser with the rear. But a loose car that pushes trying to figure how to get the push out without loosing the rear up any. So without LSD and rear toe and ride height being a factor. With dampers, front toe, and roll bars what gives he most front grip for online play... Thanks for any input.
 
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We all know that a higher front spring or camber near 2.0 to 2.5 will give better front grip.
does negative toe help turn in
So without LSD

No
Yes
LSD effects the front of the car, even in RWD.
 
Ok Adrenaline please explain if you dont mind... Do you think that softer springs and less camber up front give more frontend grip? Dr slump and Jackthalad besides from the grammar lesson do you guys have any input. Ill hit the enter button next time but whats your take on the issue? Looking for some real input :embarrassed:) please...
 
Ok Adrenaline please explain if you dont mind... Do you think that softer springs and less camber up front give more frontend grip? Dr slump and Jackthalad besides from the grammar lesson do you guys have any input. Ill hit the enter button next time but whats your take on the issue? Looking for some real input :embarrassed:) please...

I simply dislike comments like "2.0 and 2.5 camber give better front end grip" because that's false.
 
Okay, to give you a hint, even an X2011 with low downforce doesn't need more than 2 front camber. I'd actually not put a street car above 0.8 front and 1.3 rear generally, unless it's extremely powerful. Lower front spring rates and anti roll than the rear should give better turn in and the front toe should be positive for a more responsive car; the in game advice is wrong, a friend of mine has looked at the book that came with one of the special editions of the game (his brother has it, lucky guy) and it said positive front toe gave better turn in. We tried it and it worked.
 
Ok what camber setting is the best for a street car to get the most grip from the front tires..

:dunce:
There isn't a single setting. That's the point. Every car is different, every setup is different, every track is different. You have to find the balance. Camber will be directly related to Ride Height, Spring stiffness and potentially other variables.
 
In real life, the BBSS setup (big bar soft spring) has completely taken over both flat oval track and road racing where rules permit : GT5 seems completely unaware of this and/or ignores the physics that make it dominate real life racing. You use a HUGE front swaybar and a very light spring, which both plants the nose under braking / provides aero benefit at high speeds with no real downside.

I cannot get a single car in GT5 to respond to it.

But then again, I also can't get my Golf to lift the inside rear wheel during corners, and they all do it in Showroom Stock .... sigh.
 
Im with you modified4 that is how its done in real life. I will try using less camber up front. Adrenaline how is camber and ride height related im not saying anyone is wrong or right. I just wana hear what everyones input is and try anything that someone suggests.. 69 Camaro, Dodge SRT8, regular Camaro, 06 vette all have front grip issues and I wana see what everyone does. Heck the 06 vette you cant adjust ride height so that isnt even in the equation. Mistersafeway you sure about the + toe in the front at least thats what the latest version of GT5 said? ive sen online some of these big heavy cars turn with S2000s and NSXs and so on but they got the front working and its far and few. And when someone online has it nailed down they never wana come up off of there frontend settings lol..
 
I've not tested negative versus positive front toe since 2.08 came out, but positive was more responsive before. The book my friend read, which as I said was specifically about Gran Turismo 5, said that negative would make countersteering easier and positive would make turn in better. They could have changed it recently, but my cars feel as responsive as ever, just minor grip characteristic changes that occured due to the physics changes of 2.08.
 
Thanks mistersafeway.. So what is everyone thoughts on roll bars. Bigger up front gives more grip or a smaller bar gives more grip.. And we still havent talked about dampers. Is a big split in the front like 8 ext and 4 comp give more grip than say 4/4 or 8/8?
 
Any more advice out there?

What have you found in back to back tests? You will gain more respect around the tuning forum if you offer up test results and then ask for advice. The path that you are on now seems a little like, "tell me everything so that I don't need to put forth any effort."
 
I wish it was like that. I dont know how many hrs I have online in a room alone testing and testing and some cars I just cant get to turn like some guys online have. I am asking for help and yea I would like to know everything so I could enjoy playing the game instead of spending days trying to figure things out. Agin just looking for things that will improve or optimize frontend grip..
 
that's one long paragraph...

suspension is all about balance. springs will stiffen/unstiffen the chassis at any given moment and dampers shift the weight around at any given moment. during braking, accelerating and cornering.

there's nothing you can do to the front that won't affect the rear and vice-versa

this depends solely on the car and it's weight balance. you want the most weight on the front while cornering without it being too much and overloading the tires, and you also want said weight to be rebounded before it becomes overloaded under heavy g-forces.

lets say you have the front dampers set to 5/5 (rebound/compression) then that will have a certain effect... given
now if you increase the rebound then the weight will be unloaded faster. the consequence may be understeer because now the weight is bounced off too soon..
if you increase the compression, then there is less weight allowed onto those tires, but still rebounded at the same rate.

when tuning, I tend to use the Tire Load Indicator and go for maximum load, but at safe levels. that way you can use as much grip as your tires allow.
 
SolidSnake when you say increase the rebound or ext. Do you mean a higher number in the ext damping lets it un-compress faster or slower. On a real world shock the higher the rebound # the slower the shock will extend and allow the weight to stay over those tires longer.. But you said increase the rebound and the weight will be unloaded sooner.. So just asking to explain a little more.
 
What tires are you using? And can you give an example of the car's that won't turn?

The biggest flaw in this game engine is the ride height, don't just lower the suspension. having the front end higher than the rear will actual help with front grip. I normally use 5/2 as my starting ride-height. After a few laps I'll go back and lower it and see if that helped or hurt front grip. If it hurts it I'll raise it to 10, repeat until happy.
I have used ride heights of 18/10 on some cars that lack front grip (ZR1 for example).
 
I tend to tell myself that the cars we tune don't drive themselves. The gas and brake pedal, as well as your steering wheel make for excellent tuning characteristics too.
 
There is only one way to help grip and thats to lower the car ,the lower the car the lower its centre of gravity and centre fuegal force when in turns you can say it gives a natural tightness

LSD tuning can assist in this by only delivering enough power to stop you pushing up or out

The Dampers in my opinion the lower the number the quicker the car will turn into it but a lower rebound will throw it back quicker than a high number ,but i think this is tuned by your feel of the car on the track and every car on any track reacts different

Anti rolls much like the dampers the lower the number the more the car will lean in a corner too much causes oversteer particuarly when exiting a corner

Camber does help the car turn a little better but it shouldnt be used in any great ammounts 2 should be the maximum your looking for in any car ,what your looking for here is ,front if the car slides then youve got too much and rear if the car slides then you have too little

i only tune toe if i`m racing using tyre wear ,and thats always negative
 
TheBull so when you softer anyiroll bar will cause oversteer do you mean a softer bar in the front will give better grip or a larger bar in the front will give better grip..
 
One issue with what TheBull said... lowering the car doesn't do that in GT5, despite what they said about 2.08 it's still better for grip to raise it. I've tested it (albeit only briefly) and it appears that they still have the ride height settings reversed.
 
mistersafeway online or offline.. I race online and ride height higher in the front or rear makes a difference. Offline they took it away. Dosent matter where you set the ride height..
 
In general I tend to use lower ARB at the front than the back for front grip. Eg. 1 3

Raising the front spring rate gives better turn-in.

Negative front toe gives better mid corner grip.

As for camber, I use that very carefully as it seems to effect tire wear. Seldom over 1.0

But that said I'm no expert, and as stated in a earlier post, every car is different. The key for every setup is to find the balance between front and back grip. But that's just what I believe anyway.
 
Adrenaline how is camber and ride height related im not saying anyone is wrong or right.

The higher the car, the higher the center of gravity, the more body roll, the more camber is needed.

The lower the car, the lower the center of gravity, the less body roll, the less camber is needed.
 
mistersafeway online or offline.. I race online and ride height higher in the front or rear makes a difference. Offline they took it away. Dosent matter where you set the ride height..

I've heard that its been taken away offline myself and never checked that properly, so yes, I mean online.

I'm curious though, are the physics in Time Trials online or offline, does anyone here know for certain? I've been doing quite a bit of running in the Formula Gran Turismo one currently active and changing the ride height has affected the car, but when I tried running the same setup on the car online it handled very differently.
 
taz a softer roll bar ie 1 will help the car turn and also with it more oversteer and mistersafeway you can lower the ride height now in gt5 but you now have to have the ride height on front and rear somewhere similar for it to work ,if you put the front at 0 and have the rear at 30 it seems to be unbalanced
 
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