FWD Sports Car?

  • Thread starter TVC
  • 482 comments
  • 44,060 views

Can a sports car be front wheel drive?

  • Yes

    Votes: 129 78.2%
  • No

    Votes: 36 21.8%

  • Total voters
    165
It's not so much whether there is such a thing as a FWD sports car, but actually more along the lines what is a "sporty car" vs a "sports car". I'll use my own car vs my uncle's car as an example.

My car - DC2 Honda Integra
View attachment 71250
Uncle's - Supra (no pic)

My car is FWD. Has a 1.8L V-tec engine. It's got great handling, excellent response and is relatively easy to maneuver and to hit the limit in. It can be tuned to deliver sports car like performance engine-wise but unfortunately due to its FWD layout, it will never deliver handling performance that of AWD and RWD cars. Sad to say, it can only be considered a "sporty car" as it can only satisfy one of the many criterion needed for sports car certification.

My uncle's Supra is RWD with a 3.0L 2JZGTE twin turbo charged beast of a car. It's meant to crush kill and destroy practically anything in its way. It also helps that it's block can withstand 600hp without rebuilding the bottom end - basically bolts on (lots of them). His Supra, though limited to 280hp from factory, is a sports car. It has two seats only. Does not accommodate much else other than a hot shorty in the passenger and golf clubs with an overnight bag in the rear. It handles pretty good if you tune it right. The aforementioned 600hp will not help (while these are nigh super car like numbers it doesn't have the handling or grip prowess enough to put it down on the tarmac - which is what holds it back from super car status), but there is potential for more as the car allows you to be more versatile with setups as RWD has many physics based advantages over FWD.

That being said, its worth noting that in recent years access to faster road going normal cars has become rampant what with Golf GTis growing turbos, Evos, STIs, Focus RS and even cars like the Lotus Carlton, but with all their wizardry behind their performance they've only managed to make a regular car sportier rather than producing an all out sports car.

I could be wrong and it wouldn't be the first time, but heck what's a forum thread without opinions. Having just read page 13 i feel some what silly having posted this as an additional response, but then i figure i took time out to contribute might as well keep it up until i get flamed. :S

Is an Integra a Civic? No. It's a sportscar.

Is a 350Z a G35 sedan? No. It's a sportscar.

Honestly, it's that simple. Doesn't matter whether or not it's the best sportscar on the planet or the worst, as long as it's built with performance in mind and in the right body style, it's a sportscar.
 
Is an Integra a Civic? No. It's a sportscar.
Yes?

I understand your point, but my point is that an Integra is basically a fasthatch Civic, and neither of those are sports cars.
 
TVC
I really do not think a sport compact is a sports car. It's just a compact car/economy car that is faster than the base model. Not really a sports car.

Just look at any definition of a sports car.

"a low small usually 2-passenger automobile designed for quick response, easy maneuverability, and high-speed driving"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sports car

No.

Just because this is your thread does not mean you have any extra say over the issue. Many people have spoken, many cars have been posted and it turns out a sport compact car is a sports car. Sorry - but 80% isn't usually wrong.

Sport = performance = any FWD car that posted that is meant to go slightly faster than other cars. Size does not come into it. An old wonan looking at an Integra type R would not say "ooooohh - look at that sport compact" (she probably wouldn't as anything actually), if anything, she would say "ooooh - look at that sports car". Sport compact is a sub division recognised only by car bores - and there's not much recognition anyway. If you asked here whether an Integra Type R is a sports car, 99% of people would say yes, because its got an aggressive stance, a very exciting engine and brilliant dynamics and designed for a spirited drive now and again. If someone corrected me when I said it was a sports car and they said (most likely in an annoying tone) "er no - actually its a sports compact for your information", I'd either punch them in the face, or distance myself from them, and I'd do it immediatly because I wouldn't want to listen to them anymore.

I wouldn't even call the ITR very compact. Sure - things like the 205 GIT are (no less of a sports car, mind) but an ITR is verging on a coupe shape, whcih isn't as compact as possible. A Civic Type R is more compact anyway.
 
I wouldn't call hot hatches sports cars. I'm quite happy with the "designed for purpose" open topped definition. A 205 GTI is still just a 205 that's been breathed on. It may be quick and fun but it's not a sports car.

And Keef - so what if the CRZ is a hybrid? Really? If it's fun then it'll be a great car. You seem to have unfortunately got into the mindset that power is the be-all and end-all of having fun. Yet you go on about the Miata enough, so you know that can't be the case. The experience of driving is so much more important than outright performance, on the road at least. If Honda gets the experience right, then they'll have done well. It's worth remembering that the original 1.5 Honda CRX had only 108bhp. And they also did a 1.3 version. Yet it was light, aerodynamic, and had a great chassis. How about that? Light, fun, economical... sounds just like the CR-Z's mission statement.

The Civic Si's engine would be overkill. You just don't need that sort of power in a car that small. Sure, it's fun, but giving it twice the power wouldn't automatically give it twice the fun.
 
In my opinion there is no reason because a FWD car can't be a sports car if it's built to be a sports car.

Clearly if I must choose a car for a track day 99% of times I take a RWD, the only thing that can make difference is the driving pleasure.
 
Sorry niky, but an integra r will never be a sports car by virtue that it is a factory tuned version of a volume carrier b18b non vtec Or b18c vtec gsr coupe. It's a great SPORTY car not sports car, same like a civic, same like an evo, same like a Mazda 3, same like a srt4 neon etc etc.
 
If we resort to the complaint that there are lower-performance base models for the Integra… the same can be said of the Porsche 911. Or the Mazda Miata. Or the Porsche Boxster. (Case in point: a base Mazda Miata is significantly slower than a base Integra)

The fact that there are lower-tuned versions of a sports car doesn't mean a sports car is not a sports car. Power and performance doesn't disqualify a sports car, otherwise none of the classic examples of sports cars count. And no, even during its day, a base Mazda Miata could hardly hope to win a drag-race against a cooking Civic. I should know, I've driven a few. Even tuned with a full exhaust and an ECU remap, it hardly qualifies as "warm" in hatchback terms.

Yes?

I understand your point, but my point is that an Integra is basically a fasthatch Civic, and neither of those are sports cars.

The DC2 Integra isn’t a Civic.

They're based on the same floorpan, yes, and you can swap engines between them, but they don't share body panels, suspension tuning and brakes are different, and the Integra even had its own sedan variant (which was eventually dropped).

The 350Z and G35 share platforms, basic suspension design and engines... is a 350Z a G35 and thus not a sports car? Does that make the 350Z a luxury sedan? (the same argument can be made for the Mustang... it's not a pony car! It's a Jaguar S-Type with a live axle and two less doors!)

A Civic Type R isn't a sports car, it's a hot hatch. A four-door Civic Si isn't a sports car, it's a sports sedan (though that can be argued). A Civic Si... you might have a point about it being a breathed-on Civic... but an Integra (of old) is an entirely separate model that just happens to be built on the same platform.

Shall we talk about the cruddy Ford engine and rear axle in the Lotus Super Seven? Does their presence make the Super Seven an economy car?

The definition does not care where the parts have come from or how much of them you use. Simply, if a car does what a sports car is supposed to do and has the proper shape, it's a sports car.
 
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I guess I should be happy someone considers my teg a sports car.

Though it must be said that were that the case the term sports car definitely has too wide a spectrum, with that I will agree to disagree.

Ps porsches are built with no compromise for performance whether a 911 has variants within it's particular sku or not. However an integra was not conceived to be at type r trim from launch, in fact it was a volume driver for car segment under coupe economy. Totally different philosophies involved. I daresay comparing the two have ole Ferdinand rolling in his grave.
 
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I guess I should be happy someone considers my teg a sports car.

Though it must be said that were that the case the term sports car definitely has too wide a spectrum, with that I will agree to disagree.

Ps porsches are built with no compromise for performance whether a 911 has variants within it's particular sku or not. However an integra was not conceived to be at type r trim from launch, in fact it was a volume driver for car segment under coupe economy. Totally different philosophies involved. I daresay comparing the two have ole Ferdinand rolling in his grave.

I covered that earlier:

Famine
Oddly, in Europe the DC2 is much more of a sportscar than elsewhere. We never got the "normal" versions of the Integra, just the Type-R coupe, whereas other regions got 5-doors and dull engines and all sorts of dross. I forgot to take that into account earlier.
 
Sorry niky, but an integra r will never be a sports car by virtue that it is a factory tuned version of a volume carrier b18b non vtec Or b18c vtec gsr coupe. It's a great SPORTY car not sports car, same like a civic, same like an evo, same like a Mazda 3, same like a srt4 neon etc etc.

So I guess the M3/M5 & Mercedes AMG cars aren't sports cars because they're just factory tuned versions of volume carriers.
 
Well....technically, by that definition, yes. And I'm not too displeased at all with that notion.
 
I wouldn't consider the M3 nor the M5 sports cars either (The M3 is a GT and has been since the E36 version. The M5 is a sports sedan.)

...but not for the reason listed above.

A 911 GT3 RS wouldn't be a sports car by that definition then, since it is derived from the 911 Carrera, which is Porsche's volume carrier.


EDIT: After some consideration, I would grant the M3 CSL and M3 GTS both as "sports cars". The CSL by a hair thin margin since it does have rear seats. The GTS is absolutely a sports car.


M
 
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Ps porsches are built with no compromise for performance whether a 911 has variants within it's particular sku or not. However an integra was not conceived to be at type r trim from launch, in fact it was a volume driver for car segment under coupe economy. Totally different philosophies involved. I daresay comparing the two have ole Ferdinand rolling in his grave.

So Porsche starts with a 911 GT3 RS as the base car and then creates luxury variants? No? Okay then, you can't tell me that a base Carrera takes no compromise for performance.


@Keef: Yeah, nobody is gonna want the CR-Z. And its not entirely because its slow. Being a hybrid itself will make it boring. And heavier than it needs to be. It has like 120hp from a 1.5L. And I'd expect Insight-like weight. Its not like you can really upgrade hybrid cars either. At least having the R18 as an available engine would've helped.
 
A 911 GT3 RS wouldn't be a sports car by that definition then, since it is derived from the 911 Carrera, which is Porsche's volume carrier.
I'd say that is a bit different from the BMW example, because even the volume carrier Porsche Carrera is a sports car.
 
I would say a Carrera rides the fence between sports car and GT. It has two small back seats as a nod to practicality. The basic 911 has been drifting towards GT for decades now. A Cayman (and Boxster) is more of a proper sports car than a Carrera.

The GT3 and GT3 RS does away with back seats, so hence more of a sports car.


M
 
I'd say the 911 was a sports car, but crossed over to GT probably with the 964.
 
So what do we call a 911 GT3 RS anyway? A gussied up 911? Because I wouldn't call it a GT at that point.
 
I'd personally call the 911 a sports car, although whether it's as much of a sports car as the Boxter and Cayman is a different matter. And the Boxter is the only sports car by the traditional definition.
 
I'd call the 2WD 911s sports cars because they tend to be quite a pure driving car with very communicative steering and braking and basically talks to the driver, while handling superbly. That is lost with the 4WD system, which has different dynamics, which would move it into GT territory.
 
I guess I should be happy someone considers my teg a sports car.

Though it must be said that were that the case the term sports car definitely has too wide a spectrum, with that I will agree to disagree.

Ps porsches are built with no compromise for performance whether a 911 has variants within it's particular sku or not. However an integra was not conceived to be at type r trim from launch, in fact it was a volume driver for car segment under coupe economy. Totally different philosophies involved. I daresay comparing the two have ole Ferdinand rolling in his grave.

Answer: Here:

I'd say the 911 was a sports car, but crossed over to GT probably with the 964.

Basically, if you offer your car with a choice of eleventy million different interior options and leather trims, a sports chrono pack, the choice of cabriolet or glass-top, the choice of automatic gearbox... for convenience's sake, the choice of all-wheel drive... for safety's sake, etcetera... you're not building a car with "no compromise"... you're building a sports car with a hell of a lot of compromises to please a luxury-oriented audience. One which doesn't mind an extra four hundred to six hundred pounds of pork on their "sports car".

The proof? The mere fact that they need to market a GT3 version, which takes the 911 back to its roots as a sports car... and the fact that they further need to market a 911 GT3RS variant, to show that they're actually serious about it.

An Integra more fits the bill as a sportscar than a Porsche 911 42 Cabrio. A 911 GT3 or GT3RS is lightweight, however, and fully meets the requirements of the definition.

Remember: The Definition. Not "my" definition. I don't support the old exclusive definition of "sports car", because it's a bit daft to stick to one which no longer adequately or completely covers the modern performance car genre.

Though again, FWD is nowhere mentioned in any of the classic definitions.

And Ferdinand Porsche has been spinning in his grave for years, already... over the Cayenne. He's so upset that his gyrations are being used by a secret underground dynamo to power the Porsche factory to churn out even more Cayennes. The more Cayennes they make, the lower their electric bill is.

I wouldn't consider the M3 nor the M5 sports cars either (The M3 is a GT and has been since the E36 version. The M5 is a sports sedan.)

...but not for the reason listed above.

A 911 GT3 RS wouldn't be a sports car by that definition then, since it is derived from the 911 Carrera, which is Porsche's volume carrier.


EDIT: After some consideration, I would grant the M3 CSL and M3 GTS both as "sports cars". The CSL by a hair thin margin since it does have rear seats. The GTS is absolutely a sports car.


M

Actually... the M3 doesn't count (for some people... I remember this was a problem with one racing series... but can't recall where) because it's not a coupe. It's a two door sedan/saloon body-style. Technically true, but a ridiculous assertion.

-

Which brings up the question: does the fact that the RX8 has four-doors disqualify it? Note: the RX8 is, by all intents and purposes, a coupe. It fulfills all the requirements of being a coupe (swoopy roofline).
 
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Well if we are going to compare volume drivers for companies... How many 911s in a single generation of any variant does Porsche produce compared with the amount of Integra produced during it's DC2 run?

Price points should be considered here. Part of owning a sports car is exclusivity. While a 911 GT3 and GT3 RS are both derivatives of a base model 911 Carrera, in total i doubt Porsche would have sold as many as Honda.

Honda Integra DC2 301,103 were sold from 1994 to 2001.

Say for example we have a base model Integra LS B18B engine no VTEC nothing, squat, nada, kaput. We take it apart cram it full of VTEC parts performing an LS/VTEC conversion, we paint Championship White, we give it 16 inch 5 lug PCD 114.3 rims a la 98 spec Type R, and we put Type R badges all over it, will it then be considered a sports car same as a Type R? I really don't think so.

What i'm trying to say in this post is that, sure you can take whatever car you want retrofit them with go fast parts from AMG, M division, Mugen, Spoon, "Type R" it, but it won't change the fact that the car started out life with meager intentions - saloon cars turned gangbusters.

When i say Porsche builds cars with no compromise they do so with the intention of selling exhilaration and acceleration (power, handling, prestige etc etc). Sure the car comes with some added luxuries, and sometimes adorns the GT, or a GT3, or a GT2, or a GT3 RS badge, but that doesn't make it less of a sports car. Because that's what it was intended to be - a sports car.

So to answer a question that might be lurking in your minds - what the heck is an AMG, M, Type R, blah blah car?

An LEV - Limited Edition Vehicle. Anomalies that grace us every so often because everyone wants that little bit extra exclusivity. That age old attitude of "mine is better than yours" stands true here.

But again, in the grand scheme of things it shouldn't be ignored, the fact that yes some LEVs deliver mind blowing performance and generally do deliver in terms of excitement. Perhaps the reason why there are so many different opinions is because we look at all cars with an emotive connotation - how it makes us feel...

I may have lost the plot already, a thousand apologies.

PS - I think the RX8 is a sports car, it ticks all the right boxes but has a nice party trick - suicide doors, flashy.
 
Well if we are going to compare volume drivers for companies... How many 911s in a single generation of any variant does Porsche produce compared with the amount of Integra produced during it's DC2 run?

Price points should be considered here. Part of owning a sports car is exclusivity. While a 911 GT3 and GT3 RS are both derivatives of a base model 911 Carrera, in total i doubt Porsche would have sold as many as Honda.

Honda Integra DC2 301,103 were sold from 1994 to 2001.

Nope. The Mazda MX5 has sold nearly a million copies. Exclusivity is part of owning an exotic, a luxury car, or a supercar... though the last two are debatable.

Does the fact that the Porsche Boxster is a volume model (one that basically saved Porsche's behind) make it any less of a sports car? No. Does it make it less exclusive and/or less of a premium car? Maybe.

Say for example we have a base model Integra LS B18B engine no VTEC nothing, squat, nada, kaput. We take it apart cram it full of VTEC parts performing an LS/VTEC conversion, we paint Championship White, we give it 16 inch 5 lug PCD 114.3 rims a la 98 spec Type R, and we put Type R badges all over it, will it then be considered a sports car same as a Type R? I really don't think so.

What i'm trying to say in this post is that, sure you can take whatever car you want retrofit them with go fast parts from AMG, M division, Mugen, Spoon, "Type R" it, but it won't change the fact that the car started out life with meager intentions - saloon cars turned gangbusters.

Only the Integra isn't a saloon. It's a coupe that's built on a platform shared with a sedan. Again: 350Z and G35. Not really that much difference (though the 350Z has a shorter wheelbase).

When i say Porsche builds cars with no compromise they do so with the intention of selling exhilaration and acceleration (power, handling, prestige etc etc). Sure the car comes with some added luxuries, and sometimes adorns the GT, or a GT3, or a GT2, or a GT3 RS badge, but that doesn't make it less of a sports car. Because that's what it was intended to be - a sports car.

A Porsche 911 is built to make money. That's the long and short of it. And to make money, it's offered with "selling points" like interior leather, a glass roof, a turbo-charged engine, PASM and all-wheel drive.

If a 911 weren't built to make money, and were built surely for the sole intention of providing thrills, profit-be-damned, they wouldn't be Porsche 911s. They'd be Nissan GT-Rs (Nissan doesn't make any money on the GT-R)... or better yet... Honda NSXs (they don't make much money on them, either, even after fifteen years of sales... which is why they're being cancelled). You don't see AWD or turbocharged versions of the NSX. Nothing is therein included (besides the wonderfully ergonomic interior) to cater to those wanting more luxury, more seats, more safety, etcetera.

There is no GT-R convertible (though I wouldn't put it past Nissan to do that), there is no "base model" as there was with the R32-R34 GT-Rs. It's a bespoke model. Of course, it's incredibly porky, but so are many so-called sports cars nowadays.

-

The only cars being sold nowadays with "no compromise" in mind are the Ariel Atom, various Super Seven clones and assorted track-specials.

Of coruse, there's no "prestige" in these, but "prestige" is not a requirement for sports cars. Exotics, yes, premium cars, mostly yes. Sports cars: No.

So to answer a question that might be lurking in your minds - what the heck is an AMG, M, Type R, blah blah car?

A retuned and often rebuilt version of a more meager car. An M3 shares nearly no body panels with the base 3-series, has a different suspension (and even a different track width, which is why it can't use the regular body panels), and a bespoke engine (hand built). Again... does the fact that the GT3 is based on the base 911 make it any less of a sports racer?

An LEV - Limited Edition Vehicle. Anomalies that grace us every so often because everyone wants that little bit extra exclusivity. That age old attitude of "mine is better than yours" stands true here.

But again, in the grand scheme of things it shouldn't be ignored, the fact that yes some LEVs deliver mind blowing performance and generally do deliver in terms of excitement. Perhaps the reason why there are so many different opinions is because we look at all cars with an emotive connotation - how it makes us feel...

On a personal level, I consider such cars sports cars. But that is my opinion. The facts are that if the body-style and parameters is correct (low, small, one or two seater or two-plus-two), and the vehicle is built to be driven quickly, it's a sports car by definition. If it's of the wrong body type, it isn't.

Again, personal opinion: body style doesn't count. But that's opinion only.

I may have lost the plot already, a thousand apologies.

No problem... this question naturally sparks long posts. :lol:

PS - I think the RX8 is a sports car, it ticks all the right boxes but has a nice party trick - suicide doors, flashy.

As do I.
 
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Actually... the M3 doesn't count (for some people... I remember this was a problem with one racing series... but can't recall where) because it's not a coupe. It's a two door sedan/saloon body-style. Technically true, but a ridiculous assertion.

It is only a 2 door sedan if it has the same interior volume as the 4 door sedan upon which it is based. So in the case of the current 3-series, the 2 door is indeed a Coupe in the classical sense, since there is less leg and head room in the Coupe, especially in the rear.

The only generation 3-series 2 door that may be called a "2 door sedan" is (possibly) the E30. But I don't have the numbers handy at the moment.


Well if we are going to compare volume drivers for companies... How many 911s in a single generation of any variant does Porsche produce compared with the amount of Integra produced during it's DC2 run?

Price points should be considered here. Part of owning a sports car is exclusivity. While a 911 GT3 and GT3 RS are both derivatives of a base model 911 Carrera, in total i doubt Porsche would have sold as many as Honda.

Honda Integra DC2 301,103 were sold from 1994 to 2001.

What does this prove? That Honda sold more Integras than 911s? Of course it did; the 911 is far more expensive.

Ford probably made three times as many (close to a million) SN-95 Mustangs during that time period. (Source) It probably made six times as many Escorts and Focuses over the same period. (I'm guessing here, since I can't find the exact numbers)

So in absolute terms, the Integra is comparatively rare when counted against the Fords. This would break your premise that the Integra is a volume leader. That you would draw an arbitrary line between "volume" and "rare" at the Integra makes your argument shaky.

The basic 911 Carrera exists to make money for Porsche. It may be expensive, but it is a "mainstream" product in the market segment where it lives. It is designed and built to appeal to a wide range of buyers ---most of them casual consumers. Yes, they have money, but not exotic tastes.

Consider that the Carrera has been available with an automatic transmission for about 20 years now. Consider that it shares the same water cooled semi-dry sump motor as the Boxster, rather than the race proven M30 block derived from classic 911s --something the GT3 retains. Consider the existence of PASM as well as the sports suspension package. Why is there a sports suspension option on a sports car? Isn't a sports car supposed to be sporty all the time? Consider the wide array of mundane conveniences Porsche will charge you an arm and a leg for... full leather, heated seats, navigation system, hi-fi stereo, a big glass roof, all-wheel-drive, etc.

The ITR is to the Integra as the GT3 is to the 911. The only reason I wouldn't consider it a sports car is because it has back seats and some semblance of cargo capacity.

So to answer a question that might be lurking in your minds - what the heck is an AMG, M, Type R, blah blah car?

An LEV - Limited Edition Vehicle. Anomalies that grace us every so often because everyone wants that little bit extra exclusivity. That age old attitude of "mine is better than yours" stands true here.

An M3 is not "limited". There is no set production number. BMW will sell as many as there are people willing to buy them. They are "exclusive" because they are expensive. The more expensive you make something, the smaller the market is for that item. It's a simple economic function.


Re: RX-8. Negative. Has back seats.

EDIT: I see I've been tree'd by niky on a few points.



M
 
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