Gaming and Social Justice (The #Gamergate Thread)

[Imari]

Can someone explain to me, simply, what this "gamergate" idiocy even is? It's blown up everywhere, but all I've seen is constant talk of "backlash" towards it with no reference to what "it" even was in the first place; and I'm not particularly interested in watching a 15 minute video where what I assume is a YouTube celebrity decries another YouTube celebrity on the assumption that it is an objective source for the answer.

Watch the GamerGate in 60 seconds video posted by @TheDrummingKING above. It does as good a job as any of summarising it.

 

[niky]

I don't buy it. I don't believe for one second that GG as a whole is a movement in good faith.

Pretty much.

Even after watching those videos, there's nothing there but the same, self-entitled "We're gamers, you're not, we're really not anti-feminists, though we're lobbying as hard as hell to take you down..." rhetoric you hear from insider hardliners. And some of the stuff has already been debunked by the other side.

And actually lobbying for advertisers to pull money over just one... supposed... bad faith review and a few opinion pieces after all those years of big magazines being in bed with big titles with exclusive reviews and completely underserved high ratings?

Yeah... right. Pull the other leg.

-

I don't think anything of either woman involved in this... and Sarkeesian's videos do have their problems... Thunderfoot's analysis, though, has a lot of issues of its own... put another way... it's in the same vein as: "Oh, you can't have a game about busting a child pornography ring without showing child pornography... right?" Try to digest that for a minute...

But it's been pretty obvious that GamerGate is personal... otherwise the vitriol of those involved would not be anywhere near so intense.

-

In the meantime, such unbridled hate for the mere idea of the existence of "social justice warriors" merely reinforces how misguided it is. Doesn't matter that there are minorities and women on the "Gamer's" side. Those people are gamers. This is all about a reactionary witch-hunt by gamers against outsiders.

-

In the end... it can do nothing but backfire. Dividing the whole field into "us" and "them" will simply turn the 80% of the world that is not made up of gamers against "us".

Good luck with that.

 

[Ibonibo]

Firstly sorry about language. It was late, watched and read a bit about it, I hate hypocrties and one lead to an other. Doesn't excuses it. Been here years, never overstepped, happens to all I guess.
Redacted it. You can leave the red banner, as warning for abuse and misuse of an accepted
word.
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Now on the mouvement. I don't care for the mouvement that was started by A. Baldwin with a hashtag (i do like him as actor thou). I don't use twitter, yes I have an account, it's been rotting for years without tweets...
And a mouvement on the internet about an hobby where there are alot of 14 year old "COD" mentality, it can only end in something that colours the whole mouvement as bad, due to threats and language (I know)
A movement will always have idiots in it. If it happens IRL on demos, it certainly will happen on a loose medium like the internet, where everybody can hide behind a fake name.

This isn't about sleeping your way up, that the girls business, if her morals are that low and her selfestime is non existent, I don't care. She isn't even pretty... (personal taste)

It's about self proclaimed journalist censoring. And false statement about mysogyn

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I summarize really quickly. A game developper makes a contest :girls give ideas for a game (as to show that they can do it too, and we are not all mysogynic bigots). They make it. Girl get 8% only for throwing in an idea, not for developping it, rest is for charity. Quinn comes in, says the boss of said devel. team haressed her (court dismissed it). Game dev is shattered business wise. Said journalist she slept with (she confirmed 3/5) give only her side of the story out. Censors the side of the developer.

Guess what the dev got death threats too, his kids are mobbed in school. People come to his house, haress his wife.

Every story has two side.

But as the excuse is mysogyny, nobody cares for the other side. It can only be wrong. It doesn't even get published. and it was a noble idea. This is exactly what I posted in my first response when I didn't know what it all was. Girls, woman taking advantage of being girls, crying rape or haressment where none is. Now that is sexist as hell!!!!

That's the big story. That's where the hate comes from...

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I guess a lot of us love Mirror Edge, and well guess what EA is listening to Anita. A person that has zero interest in video games (said it herself) will help shape a video game

Apparently Anitsas ex or current was involved in a pyramid scam in 2006.... The "proves" are often linked in the videos....

I can't and won't link them due to excessive languague. Some of these videos with the links are on page one.

It's 15 min. vid worth you time if you stand on the wrong side, as it is way out of porportion with dev. like Tim Schäfer, Staint Row, EA taking the wrong side.

I am clearly as stated for equal respect and am against xenophobia. Gaming is often sexist in some ways, but it should be lead by people with conviction and an interest in the domain. Not by money and fame grabbers.

And jade Raymond makes what games. Shooters and Hack and slash games.... I really would be interested in her side
There are enough vids of Female game dev. on utube taking a stance against those two public hypocrite caracters.

THey are the idiots when they say Gamergate is only white virgins and minorities. Calling out minorities shows their true colours. Lot of girls and other than caucasians are gamergate or against those two....


And yes it's all blew out of proportion.
I don't really care. But when it transforms the media I use (games) and love, it makes me puke a little inside....

Would Transformers be that of an blockbuster if instead of Megan Fox we would have her instead:

Pleasing to the eye sells. Sex sells. Always has, always will. It's human nature. All we need is a bit more repect for each other...

But as also stated in my first post. Bu-hu, the world has bigger problems

 

[niky]

And that's precisely it.

The world has bigger problems than the shenanigans of indie game makers and the social commentary of a single YouTube channel. If a company chooses to listen to her, that's their decision. And given that nobody's even seen the game yet... how do we know how good or bad it will be?

If games change... tough. Developers will always follow the market. Which means that, right now, we have RPGs with bikini-clad warriors, ultra-violent games with decapitation and dismemberment, yet another Grand Theft Auto in which you can shoot random civilians and leer at scantily clad females, and sports and fighting games which use females purely as eye-candy.

But in addition to that, we have games that kids can play, without bloodshed and without scantily-clad nightclub dancers, games which young girls can play, with female leads, and games which women enjoy playing (Sims).

-

Also, Transformers sucked. But hey, it's full of fratboy humor, racist stereotypes and overt sexual innuendo. (and let's not get into the "US (big corporate) Gubmint suxx, Chinese (big corporate communist totalitarian) Gubmint rules" subtext here )... yet somehow... all the "Social Justice Warriors" in the world haven't gotten it pulled off of the shelves.

Funny how that works out, huh?

 

[Joel]

This isn't about sleeping your way up, that the girls business, if her morals are that low and her selfestime is non existent, I don't care. She isn't even pretty... (personal taste)

Girls, woman taking advantage of being girls, crying rape or haressment where none is.

You're not really helping yourself here. If you're trying to show that gaming doesn't have an issue here, perhaps it would be best if your argument didn't shame a woman for having sex, imply she's immoral because of it, and comment on how you don't think she's pretty as if it's relevant to your argument. Not to mention the trite BS about "crying rape".

 

[Ibonibo]

Never said gaming doesn't have an issue. Even to the contrary. I say these girls use this argument for their own personal advantage which has very little to do with the mysogynic problem.

"She isn't even pretty... (personal taste)" It is clearly a phrase on it's own. Punctuation. Followed by saying that it is my personal opinion.

"Girls, woman taking advantage of being girls, crying rape or haressment where none is." Quote all :"This is sexist"

This has been in court. And has been dismissed. More prove can not be given. It's a sad reality that some girls take advantage of this and it is a slap in the face for all the real victims of it. And I can't stand both to the maximum. But when you do it to screw over the life of an innocent, even with a court ruling in his favor, the accusations will always have a nasty after taste for him.

While my choice of words was poor in my second post. How do you call people that sell their body for money or other advantages ??

I am not putting all woman in a same pit here. I talk about that one girl. She slept with other dudes while in a relationship. And even slept with a married man, and still condemn cheating of married man? Come on. And this is not assumptions, she admitted to it.

"if your argument didn't shame a woman for having sex"

My argument is she used sex for an unfair advantage. If it would have been money transfers, would that be okay. Both are dispicable. She can have sex with who she wants, but if it creates a unfair advantage, there are more parties involved than just the sex parteners


(where is the quote button gone??)

 

[Encyclopedia]

And yes it's all blew out of proportion.
I don't really care. But when it transforms the media I use (games) and love, it makes me puke a little inside....

I often see this statement. I've yet to see any negative change in games due to the evil feminists. The only change I see is for the better. That is, more varied female characters whose purpose is more than simple lazy eye candy.

Pleasing to the eye sells. Sex sells. Always has, always will. It's human nature. All we need is a bit more repect for each other...

But as also stated in my first post. Bu-hu, the world has bigger problems

True, it sells. It's the lazy minimal effort approach though. But some games have shown that you can sell with well written and designed characters as well. And in my opinion, as someone who thinks games can be much more than simple shallow entertainment, that's something that should be encouraged.

And the debate that Sarkeesian has started has actually helped do just that. Ask Neil Druckmann.

While my choice of words was poor in my second post. How do you call people that sell their body for money or other advantages ??

I've yet to see any conclusive proof that Quinn slept around for a good review of her game.

 

[Sanji Himura]

Watch the GamerGate in 60 seconds video posted by @TheDrummingKING above. It does as good a job as any of summarising it.

Here is a summary of the whole GamerGate situation:

Zoe Quinn, developer of the steam game Depression Quest, was caught cheating on her boyfriend Aaron with five different men, three of whom were identified as Nathan Grayson and Robin Arnott of Kotaku and Joshua Boggs. It wasn't the fact that she slept with those men that was the issue here, it was the fact that she did so to gain favorable press. Before we go any further, let's see the Wikipedia definition of prostitution, shall we?

Prostitution is the business or practice of engaging in sexual relations in exchange for payment or some other benefit.

This didn't stop there. Nathan and Robin were also caught, along with other members of the gaming press, donating to Quinn's exploits.

But it isn't just Quinn who was caught in the dragnet. Mighty No. 9's Community Manager, Dina, recently banned quite a few backers of GamerGate after it was found out that she too was sleeping around with staff...





There is now chargebacks that are now a result of this mass banning.

 

[TRGTspecialist]

Can't say I know a great deal about this story, so at risk of bringing some ignorance.........

Zoe Quinn, developer of the steam game Depression Quest, was caught cheating on her boyfriend Aaron with five different men, three of whom were identified as Nathan Grayson and Robin Arnott of Kotaku and Joshua Boggs. It wasn't the fact that she slept with those men that was the issue here, it was the fact that she did so to gain favorable press. Before we go any further, let's see the Wikipedia definition of prostitution, shall we?

Are these actual established facts, or is that all assumed to be cast iron because some guy said so?

If it's even all true, it's a freaking indie game no one played made by some girl no one has heard of..............it's hardly Mr. PR person at EA securing their millions of sales, or press officer for a company on the NASDAQ trying to influence the markets is it? Why would anyone give a damn?

I can only agree with @Encyclopedia on this - utter rubbish this is a 'movement' by people 'concerned about journalistic interity'. Looks much more like a great excuse to take a stab at some bitch who doesn't know her place yadda yadda. And you wonder why 'gamers' are perceived as immature..............

 

[Ibonibo]

What are facts?

We will never see a written piece of evidence or contract from the girls and the journos.

In german they call it : Indizienprozess, translation would boil to : trial based on circumstantial evidence. And the internet is the judge. And we all know the internet isn't populated with only smarts.

"And you wonder why 'gamers' are perceived as immature"

And that is the problem. They try to diffame gamers at exactly that.

When a politican says games lead to real world violence. Uproar is strong.

If a not important girl says, gamers are all immature mysogenic violent dumb virgin white males, because they are so stupid that mysogenic games influence them... nobody cares or takes the side of the girl. Partely because the part of the journalistic integriety portion of the argument. Partely because Political correctness.... You don't oppose to someone fighting for a good cause? Right? No matter what the intentions are hidden behind it? :S

I rather have a Jade Raymond fight for the role of females in games than a con artist.

Biggest problem is, while some try to fight a good cause here, they are joined by trolls, real mysogenic, haters,.. which makes the whole problem turn in circle.

The whole problem exists since sex exists. Scamming always existed.
Kickstarter and the like, while having awesome projects is poisened by scammers like Anita (160k for 3 or whatever vids with copyright infrigments...)


As for the proof. The strongest proof I found is the Quinn court part. She tried to do the same with that guy (sex for a favour), who is married and has kids. He said no, kicked her out of the project. Gets sued for haressement. Court dismisses it very quicky (quicky means evidence, 'cause those cases can go on for a long time)

 

[TheDrummingKING]

A fair article (very few of these exist in regards to GG): http://techcrunch.com/2014/09/25/gamergate-an-issue-with-2-sides.

To the people saying "it's just some indie devs" it's actually a lot deeper than that. There are ties (financial and other) between indie devs, gaming journalists, the PR company Silverstring Media (which ties in Anita Sarkeesian), and DiGRA. Oh and two indie game festival/awards programs (which because of the very serious rakateering allegations which come about from that, meant the youtube videos on it had to be taken down and the subjects dealt with in private).

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At this point, unless you're willing to spend the whole day catching up on GamerGate you won't be able to really appreciate the depth of it all. You're going to have to spend hours watching youtube videos and reading up on the internet (I've been paying close attention from the beginning thankfully).

And something I want to stress, to those who think GamerGate is about misogyny: /v/ of 4chan (prior to threads about GG being censored on there) donated $24k (of the $70k total) to The Fine Young Capitalists Indiegogo campaign to help women in gaming (the same one Zoe Quinn tried to ruin). They even made their own character for the game, Vivian James (a play on Vidya Games).

A sentiment I and the majority of GG supporters hold is this: We don't care who you are, white, black, asian, man, woman, transgender, etc. we just want to game and if you do too you're gonna be welcome with open arms. But no matter who you are, when you start to tell gamers that we're horrible people for liking certain games or that we can't have certain things in games, basically when you try to inject politics into our hobby then you're gonna have a bad time. You want more diverse video games about social and political issues? That's fine, make them and let the free market decide if they're any good or not. DON'T go stomping your feet demanding everyone else (game devs) change what they're doing to suit your political agenda (the hysteria of Assassin's Creed not having playable female avatars comes to mind).

In the end we just want to game, we don't want gaming to become a political minefield to the point where games are laid in with "trigger warnings" (because some part of it might offend someone) or so dull as to insure no possible offense can be taken.


That could have been worded better, but I hope you all can understand the point of what I was trying to say.

 

[TRGTspecialist]

You don't oppose to someone fighting for a good cause? Right? No matter what the intentions are hidden behind it? :S

Biggest problem is, while some try to fight a good cause here, they are joined by trolls, real mysogenic, haters,.. which makes the whole problem turn in circle.

Well this is where our opinions ultimately differ, because all I've seen - and again I'll admit I've not been looking hard - is not people "fighting" for a "cause", but people moaning and sending the usual doses of anonymised internet abuse. To be honest, even ignoring all that I struggle to see how it is a "cause" at all, or how anyone thinks they are "fighting" - the parties involved are small players in the industry at best. It's hardly the civil rights movement of the century, is it? And as has been pointed out in this thread, AAA developers with their marketing juggernauts actually do influence journalism and have done for years - but that never spawned a bloody hashtag did it!

 

[TheDrummingKING]

Another good article for those interested: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/ar...d_videogames_124244.html#.VDbWmQ7vAYQ.twitter

To be honest, even ignoring all that I struggle to see how it is a "cause" at all, or how anyone thinks they are "fighting" - the parties involved are small players in the industry at best. It's hardly the civil rights movement of the century, is it

As I said above, the indie devs have quite a few ties to people more powerful than them, it's not as simple as it seems with a quick glance over.

And as has been pointed out in this thread, AAA developers with their marketing juggernauts actually do influence journalism and have done for years - but that never spawned a bloody hashtag did it!

It is indeed known that some AAA developers will buy out reviews and the like but it's not that simple with indie devs. Gaming "journalists" on the more popular sites (Kotaku, Polygon, Gamasutra, etc) are far from professional, big league players (it's just the sites they write on that could be considered big league), and this creates problems. The journalists don't act with any professional integrity. This is highlighted when you have indie devs having relationships (sometimes sexual) with the journalists covering their games, and those same journalists and devs giving eachother money through patreon, and then bring in ties to big PR companies like Silverstring Media (again more friendships and exchanging of money), and then bring in MORE connections (friendships and vetted financial interest) with the people behind indie game awards, and then secret mailing lists where gaming journalists from the big name sites all collude with eachother to spin a narritive, and harrasment and doxxing of supporters of GG by the "big wigs" of the anti-GG side, you get what we have here, you get an "in clique" with disturbing power to push a political agenda and create issues over nothing.

Again poorly worded I know, but I think it gets the point across.




Edit: The KnowYourMeme page on GG isn't bad either: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/gamergate

 

[Sanji Himura]

Can't say I know a great deal about this story, so at risk of bringing some ignorance.........



Are these actual established facts, or is that all assumed to be cast iron because some guy said so?

If it's even all true, it's a freaking indie game no one played made by some girl no one has heard of..............it's hardly Mr. PR person at EA securing their millions of sales, or press officer for a company on the NASDAQ trying to influence the markets is it? Why would anyone give a damn?

I can only agree with @Encyclopedia on this - utter rubbish this is a 'movement' by people 'concerned about journalistic interity'. Looks much more like a great excuse to take a stab at some bitch who doesn't know her place yadda yadda. And you wonder why 'gamers' are perceived as immature..............

http://thezoepost.wordpress.com/

Here's the blog that started it all. Run by a nice enough chap by the name of Aaron (the ex-boyfriend of Zoe Quinn). He documented everything that went on in the relationship, not because he was a scornful lover, but because he wanted to prove to the world that there is sl*** like her around that would willingly sleep around just to get favorable press.

And if there is that much unaccountability in the gaming media today that is documented, just picture what else may go on behind the scenes.

 

[TheDrummingKING]

Speaking of Eron (correct spelling of ZQ's ex ), he's having a wonderful time in kangaroo court: http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2i50xp/i_went_to_erons_hearing_on_tuesday/

 

[TenEightyOne]

He documented everything that went on in the relationship, not because he was a scornful lover, but because he wanted to prove to the world that there is sl*** like her around that would willingly sleep around just to get favorable press.

I don't see that her motivation was "just to get favorable press", fascinating though the whole saga is.

Did you know that ladies like "doing it" as much as men do? And that some people just can't be faithful? And that gamer-girls who "like doing it" are pretty much quids-in if they fall into the unfaithful category too? It's quite possible that she was scratching an all-together more personal itch, as it were.

And men, well. What did you expect?

 

[Sanji Himura]

I don't see that her motivation was "just to get favorable press", fascinating though the whole saga is.

Did you know that ladies like "doing it" as much as men do? And that some people just can't be faithful? And that gamer-girls who "like doing it" are pretty much quids-in if they fall into the unfaithful category too? It's quite possible that she was scratching an all-together more personal itch, as it were.

And men, well. What did you expect?

Going back to the first Quinnsperacy video posted, Depression Quest was a game that got greenlit on steam despite the fact that no one wanted that pos greenlit. She slept with Grayson for the expressed purpose of getting positive coverage on a number of websites, including Kotaku, Polygon, Ars Technica, GamePolitics, need I go on?

 

[LeMansAid]

Going back to the first Quinnsperacy video posted, Depression Quest was a game that got greenlit on steam despite the fact that no one wanted that pos greenlit. She slept with Grayson for the expressed purpose of getting positive coverage on a number of websites, including Kotaku, Polygon, Ars Technica, GamePolitics, need I go on?

So what? If you're the boss, you're damaging your brand. I you're a employee. you're risking your job.

Do what you want - have sex for good press, give good press for sex, lazily greenlight based on good press - but understand that there's consequences. Punishment for "crimes" is sewn in.

 

[Sanji Himura]

So what? If you're the boss, you're damaging your brand. I you're a employee. you're risking your job.

Do what you want - have sex for good press, give good press for sex, lazily greenlight based on good press - but understand that there's consequences. Punishment for "crimes" is sewn in.

The issue is not HER! The issue at hand is the integrity of the gaming media for accepting sex in exchange for favorable coverage. That by definition is prostitution.

To basically recap the point, if we can't trust any form of media, then what else is there for concise objective news reporting, especially gaming?

 

[LeMansAid]

The issue is not HER! The issue at hand is the integrity of the gaming media for accepting sex in exchange for favorable coverage. That by definition is prostitution.

Again, so what? They literally and figuratively made their own bed.... When people lose faith in one outlet's material, another will gain favour. It very easily fixes itself.

Maybe the sex story is getting you all excited, but the basic premise of these sorts of things is long established. I see no difference between money for press, sex for press, and press for advertising (money). The pay and payoff specifics are arbitrary, and the outlet that balances it's push and pull best will prevail in the long run.

To basically recap the point, if we can't trust any form of media, then what else is there for concise objective news reporting, especially gaming?

Actually, I think the gaming arena is particularly well positioned to deal with these things considering how much communication there is between consumers.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The issue is not HER! The issue at hand is the integrity of the gaming media for accepting sex in exchange for favorable coverage. That by definition is prostitution.

She is The Gaming Media? I think not. She's a person. The Gaming Media is made of people-persons, so it works just like they do. The whole sex aspect of the story seems to be raising some uncontrollable ire within you.

Perhaps you could name a section of the media that isn't corrupted by nepotism, old-school-ties, sexual history and social power games? Gaming could model itself on that maybe?

When you fail to do that you could try looking for another industry to form a shining example? Clue: pick one with no humans in.

 

[Imari]

The issue is not HER! The issue at hand is the integrity of the gaming media for accepting sex in exchange for favorable coverage. That by definition is prostitution.

Yes and no.

If I was a gaming journalist and some non-land-whale chick was throwing herself at me, I'd take the free sex and then write whatever the hell article I wanted to write anyway. If that article happened to be positive, so be it. If a lady wants to give it away in the hopes of swaying a journalist, more power to them. If she just wants to jump my bones because I'm a sexy piece of man meat, so much the better.

If a journalist actually lets themselves be swayed by this, then they're awful at their job. If you're so desperate for action that you'd compromise your job just to get laid, you're doing it wrong. Not that it seems to stop a lot of people.

The problem is that this "relationship" had to be dug out. Real journalists declare when they have personal connections to whatever they're reporting on, and when they do that's just fine.

"Here's what I think of this game for reasons X, Y and Z. I also had a brief personal relationship with one of the devs. I don't feel that it has biased me towards the game, but you're free to take my review with a grain of salt if you wish."


The issue is both her attempt to "buy" the media, and the journalists allowing themselves to be "bought". Either party is fully capable of walking away from this transaction, and both are culpable to me.

That the currency used was sex is neither here nor there. I don't have the hangups about people using their naughty bits that many westerners seem to, and so I couldn't care if she bribed them with truckloads of donuts or 🤬🤬 in her 🤬 with a 🤬.

 

[Encyclopedia]

Going back to the first Quinnsperacy video posted, Depression Quest was a game that got greenlit on steam despite the fact that no one wanted that pos greenlit. She slept with Grayson for the expressed purpose of getting positive coverage on a number of websites, including Kotaku, Polygon, Ars Technica, GamePolitics, need I go on?

I greenlighted it. It seemed interesting to me, struggling with depression and all, so...

Also, expressed purpsose?

The issue is not HER! The issue at hand is the integrity of the gaming media for accepting sex in exchange for favorable coverage. That by definition is prostitution.

To basically recap the point, if we can't trust any form of media, then what else is there for concise objective news reporting, especially gaming?

For the issue not being about her, there sure seems to be a morbid fixation amongst a significant number of GGers of her and few other individuals who get a disproportionate amount of hate. Meanwhile plenty of other worthy stuff is being basically completely ignored.

Like Youtubers and the Shadow of Mordor contract. Of course, youtubers aren't journalists, but they are increasingly influential. Add to that they seems to be held in high regard by GamerGate.

I wonder if we'll get to see some criticism of this.

 

[Sanji Himura]

Yes and no.

If I was a gaming journalist and some non-land-whale chick was throwing herself at me, I'd take the free sex and then write whatever the hell article I wanted to write anyway. If that article happened to be positive, so be it. If a lady wants to give it away in the hopes of swaying a journalist, more power to them. If she just wants to jump my bones because I'm a sexy piece of man meat, so much the better.

If a journalist actually lets themselves be swayed by this, then they're awful at their job. If you're so desperate for action that you'd compromise your job just to get laid, you're doing it wrong. Not that it seems to stop a lot of people.

The problem is that this "relationship" had to be dug out. Real journalists declare when they have personal connections to whatever they're reporting on, and when they do that's just fine.

"Here's what I think of this game for reasons X, Y and Z. I also had a brief personal relationship with one of the devs. I don't feel that it has biased me towards the game, but you're free to take my review with a grain of salt if you wish."


The issue is both her attempt to "buy" the media, and the journalists allowing themselves to be "bought". Either party is fully capable of walking away from this transaction, and both are culpable to me.

That the currency used was sex is neither here nor there. I don't have the hangups about people using their naughty bits that many westerners seem to, and so I couldn't care if she bribed them with truckloads of donuts or 🤬🤬 in her 🤬 with a 🤬.

Not when they(the sites that I mentioned earlier) all attempt to spin the same story that gamers are dead. There is virtually no accountability on any level about gaming journalism today, and the only source of news about it, Eron, was hit with a gag order.

 

[Imari]

Not when they(the sites that I mentioned earlier) all attempt to spin the same story that gamers are dead. There is virtually no accountability on any level about gaming journalism today, and the only source of news about it, Eron, was hit with a gag order.

I'm not even sure what part of my post this is responding to...

 

[niky]

Speaking of Eron (correct spelling of ZQ's ex ), he's having a wonderful time in kangaroo court: http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2i50xp/i_went_to_erons_hearing_on_tuesday/

You do know what a kangaroo court is?

Reading through it, it seems like the judge is merely reaffirming a restraining order... one which simply asks him not to discuss Zoe Quinn's sex life as this is causing her to be harrassed and threatened.

That neither he, nor anyone else in on this whole sordid deal, can actually restrain themselves from doing so, merely signalled to the judge that the order was necessary.

Not when they(the sites that I mentioned earlier) all attempt to spin the same story that gamers are dead. There is virtually no accountability on any level about gaming journalism today, and the only source of news about it, Eron, was hit with a gag order.

Will you listen to yourself for just one minute?

You have one source of news. One legitimate source of news.

And your legitimate source is an ex-lover, whose supposedly pure intentions are... from the intro to his blog... supposedly to let the world know what a 🤬 Zoe Quinn is.

You don't actually see a problem with that? Not a single problem? Not a single: "Hey, maybe an estranged ex-lover is not a very objective source" problem with that?

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Let's get this all straight... people are mad at Zoe Quinn... mad enough to harrass her on every social media medium on Earth and to send her rape and death threats, for a personal matter that happened between Eron and Zoe. It was a very nasty thing, and perhaps the woman needs professional help if what he says is true, but it was a personal matter.

Granted, like all women suffering from depression, she is probably a drama-vortex that swallowed him up and spit him out... and he should be glad to be out of that relationship... but in the Zoe Post, he already notes that he doesn't believe that Zoe had a sexual relationship with the Kotaku writer before April... after he had published his only article mentioning her. This is also what has come out in the internal investigation by the editors.

That by definition is prostitution.

That, by definition is a woman who's having an affair.

GamerGate is a house of cards built on the messy end of a terrible relationship, co-opted by trolls as an excuse to be trolls.

Journalistic ethics nothing. Know what? Journalists are people. Developers are people. And these are people who run in the same circles, know the same people, go to the same events and share the same interests.

Of course they're going to fraternize. This is how we get content for articles and access to insider information. And people who interact so closely do sometimes share the sheets. That happens everywhere. As long as you don't write about your sexual partner, who gives a 🤬? In the end, Grayson did not write anything about his partner during their relationship.

And to go from "this guy might be sleeping with this girl" to claiming there's a grand conspiracy against gaming... first you'd have to prove that they're doing... something. And it's this nebulous something that I have yet to see evidence of.

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And the calls demanding that any writing about games be objective... please... spare me.

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A "review" is about the least objective article possible in journalism. Car reviews are subective. Movie reviews are even more subjective. (Ask Roger Ebert) Game reviews are almost entirely subjective, since gameplay and "enjoyment" depend almost entirely on the gamer.

Want an objective review? Read Consumer Reports, and skip right to the specifications panel. Don't read the road testing results, those are entirely dependent on a subjective evaluation of the car, and any performance data is at best an approximation of what is possible under certain conditions.

Don't bother reading the reliability scores, either, because that's subjective data, as well.

In the end, the only objective game review is one that gives you file sizes, frame rates and polygon counts, and nothing else. And that would suck, righteously.

Game design is an art, Game review is art appreciation. If you declare games to be beyond such subjective analysis, then you're seriously deluded.

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Any claims that this was all about journalistic integrity went out the window the moment the movement started to pick on Anita Sarkeesian. Whether you think she's a social commentator or an opportunistic troll, her videos are about as dryly objective as you can get. Saying they take things out of context... context is subjective. Saying they are cherry picking, that's subjective too. She states her aim is merely to present examples of certain tropes. The presence of counter-examples does not make her examples invalid.

"You're given a choice not to" or "you're given incentive not to" are weak defenses. The examples are there. I'm given a choice not to sleep with a dead-eyed prostitute in Fallout 3. That doesn't change the fact that I'm given a choice to sleep with one. Refer back to the idea that you can't write a game about busting child pornography without showing child pornography to see the issues with that.

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And yet... despite all this uproar... we still have Grand Theft Auto, where you can sleep with and kill hookers. We still have the big sites paying lip service to the big games. And the dev that Zoe Quinn supposedly tried to destroy still got its funding (even before GamerGate). Woohoo... that conspiracy to kill gamers worked out pretty well, didn't it?

Just going through all this has given me enough material for my own "The Gamer is Dead" article... but I wouldn't want to be part of the "conspiracy" now, would I?

 

[RACECAR]

I get the feeling the people that feel the need to send death threats and rape threats (that's new to me) for something like this aren't so much as people who actually thinking about this debate as they are people that need professional help (that or very tasteless trolls, which I would put on the same level as the morons who recently decided it was a wonderful idea to incite panic using ebola as the punchline). While I'm not at all a fan of for instance, how Sarkeesian's points are made, not once have I expressed the desire to carry out violent acts against her. Those just don't come off to me as people who are rational in anyway.

 

[Encyclopedia]

Another woman in the industry harrassed and threathened.

https://twitter.com/Spacekatgal/status/520739878993420290

 

[RACECAR]

Just downright disgusting, and over a game.

 

[Imari]

Another woman in the industry harrassed and threathened.

https://twitter.com/Spacekatgal/status/520739878993420290

To be fair, male developers cop a lot of 🤬 too. I wonder how much of a disparity there is between the abuse that male and female developers receive, and how much men are expected to just suck it up and move on because that's part of the industry?

I seem to recall a story about one of the COD devs getting death threats when they made changes to weapons. The Flappy Bird guy got death threats. I'm sure there's others.

Why are people pretending that this is an issue relating to gender, when really it's an issue relating to the unstable :censored:holes that feel that the internet is somewhere that they can behave however they like without consequence?