Gas prices and alaska

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Delirious

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Metroider17
i dont had the opportunity of filling up my gas tank when gas prices in the states were a dollar, but now being 2.29 and rising...will i ever see gas prices back down to a dollar?

Plus all this commotion with oil in alaska that we won't drill because of environmental issues? Isn't most of alaska barren wasteland anyhow? If we did drill in alaska, would we still have to buy oil from other places?
 
XVII
i dont had the opportunity of filling up my gas tank when gas prices in the states were a dollar, but now being 2.29 and rising...will i ever see gas prices back down to a dollar?

Most likely not.

Plus all this commotion with oil in alaska that we won't drill because of environmental issues?

Yes.

Isn't most of alaska barren wasteland anyhow?

There is a coastal region with towns, cities, and petroleum industrial plants;
the Alaska Panhandle, also known as Southeast Alaska, is home to towns, tidewater glaciers and extensive forests; the state has big rivers, for example the Yukon River, as well as Arctic tundra lands and shorelines; the so-called "Alaskan Bush" is the remote, uncrowded part of the state.

If we did drill in alaska, would we still have to buy oil from other places?

Yes.

By the way, I apologize for the lack of detail. I'll try to add more later -- it's getting late.
 
XVII
Plus all this commotion with oil in alaska that we won't drill because of environmental issues? Isn't most of alaska barren wasteland anyhow?

The Democrats and the "environmentalists" are the ones who are complaining about drilling in ANWR. If I remember correctly, it was something about migrating birds that fly over the area during the time when they do not drill for oil.

If we did drill in alaska, would we still have to buy oil from other places?

Yes, but it will stir up OPEC for sure. ANWR would produce 1 million barrels of oil each day and there is over 15 billion barrels of recoverable oil. The US would be less dependant on foreign oil.



You can check out more information here: http://www.anwr.org/
 
XVII
i dont had the opportunity of filling up my gas tank when gas prices in the states were a dollar, but now being 2.29 and rising...will i ever see gas prices back down to a dollar?

No in fact they will keep going up and up because OPEC wants to screw us Americans...err scratch that the civilized world over. I think they enjoy doing it to us to tell you the truth. Look for $3.00 by Summer.

Plus all this commotion with oil in alaska that we won't drill because of environmental issues? Isn't most of alaska barren wasteland anyhow? If we did drill in alaska, would we still have to buy oil from other places?

We would be able to slightley lower prices if we drilled, but we still must go through OPEC for some reason. I don't fully understand all of it.

But should we drill in Alaska? Of course, it's not like the oil companies are going to destroy the land, they aren't evil. Sure they will build on it and what not, but Alaska is what the size of the lower 48? I think a few animals can set up shop a few miles away and not feel the difference.

oil is running out, no matter if you drill in alaska or not. gas will never become cheap again.

You make it sound like we have almost no oil left, hell in our national supply we have something like 15 years worth of oil. Sure we will run out eventually, but it will be when I'm old. Although we should start thinking about what to do now so we aren't f'ed when the time comes.
 
Viper Zero
The Democrats and the "environmentalists" are the ones who are complaining about drilling in ANWR. If I remember correctly, it was something about migrating birds that fly over the area during the time when they do not drill for oil.

so because of some birds, thats why we wont drill in alaska?
 
the opec isn't srewing us, we are screwing ourselves, because we depend too much on that stuff.

the problem is that the price for something will not stay fixed until it suddenly is gone. even if we still have 60 years or maybe even 100 years left till the oil runs out (there can always be some new sources or miscalculations), the price will rise as the amount decreases, so in maybe 30 or 50 years, it might be too expensive to fuel private cars with gas or passenger planes.

now instead of reducing the amount of oil we use, we (meaning the whole world now) are actually using more of it. as far as i know the OPEC is thinking about increasing their output because of the rising prices.

sure, the OPEC could sell it cheaper, these nations are making a lot of money, but its a free market, the price is that high mostly because of the huge demand.


btw, 3 $ for a gallon? you are lucky...we are already paying about 4.50€ for a gallon. ;)


XVII
so because of some birds, thats why we wont drill in alaska?
you should have a look on how we built railways and highways in germany. they all go zig-zag around villages, places were strangee birds live, places were strange plants stay, special woods and whatnot. so in the end the highway is twice as long and all the cars use twice as much fuel and all the birds, flowers, trees and people suffocate because of all the extra CO and CO2. ;)
 
It was $2.40 gallon the other day in Michigan. Now its back down to a cheap $2.20. 👎:guilty:
Cheapest I ever saw was back around 1995-1996 and it was $0.79 cents a gallon. :dopey:
 
I paid 2.65 the other day. It's still relatively cheap. I expect that before consumption is driven down significantly gas will have to top $4.00/gallon.

Until then, traffic and smog and huge vehicles will stick around.

I hope it goes up some more. I'd like to see fuel economy become more important in vehicles.

BTW I think we should have been doing more drilling in alaska for a long time now.
 
CAMAROBOY69
It was $2.40 gallon the other day in Michigan. Now its back down to a cheap $2.20. 👎:guilty:
Cheapest I ever saw was back around 1995-1996 and it was $0.79 cents a gallon. :dopey:

Damn 2.20? Where I live in Michigan it's in the 2.30's.
 
The cost for any transportation is increasing. Not just the big SUV's or muscle cars. Plane tickets are just going to keep going up with the fuel prices. I quit driving my truck about 2 years ago. I only drive it once in a while to bring my quad out to trails. Soon I will probably sell the truck and just get a trailor to haul the quad on. I also dont drive the Camaro as often. For a 400HP muscle car it does real well on gas. 20MPG highway and about 12ish city. Gas prices were the primary reason I installed a 6 speed transmission. If it wasnt for that I would not bother driving my car anywhere.
Gas prices are also the reason I bought a crappy Saturn in place of my 1996 Firebird Formula.
BlazinXtreme
Damn 2.20? Where I live in Michigan it's in the 2.30's.
I live in Muskegon and if you want pics of the signs I can easily do that for you. Oh wait by the time I leave work it will probably be $2.60. :lol:
 
Ya that's why I'm buying a Golf TDi, sure diesel is expensive but I can go futher.
 
That really makes me angry.... what do you want ? The USA wastes the world resources like nobody else, I pay 1,69 USD for one litre, yes ONE litre 100 Octan fuel
so what do you want? Your gas is cheap as hell, I hope the prices will raise like they did here in Europe... have fun with paying 5 $ +... hey what about driving other cars than 6 litre V8 3 ton trucks ?
But really what annoys me most is Mr. Jesus Religion himself.... is that a christian attitude ? Protecting the enviroment would be a better hobby for you than giving quotes out of a 2000 year old book all day long...wtf..... :yuck:
 
That really makes me angry.... what do you want ? The USA wastes the world resources like nobody else, I pay 1,69 USD for one litre, yes ONE litre 100 Octan fuel
so what do you want? Your gas is cheap as hell, I hope the prices will raise like they did here in Europe... have fun with paying 5 $ +... hey what about driving other cars than 6 litre V8 3 ton trucks ?
But really what annoys me most is Mr. Jesus Religion himself.... is that a christian attitude ? Protecting the enviroment would be a better hobby for you than giving quotes out of a 2000 year old book all day long...wtf.....

Your gas would be a hell of a lot cheaper if they'd lay off the taxes over there.
 
Personally, I've always thought we're really saving the reserves in Alaska for when the rest of the world runs dry in about 50-100 years. This way, we're in charge of the oil supply to other nations, and OPEC can go back to making castles out of sand.

We can test the environmental aspect later on; but nobody's going to be happy with the results. If a certain type of creature is thriving in the middle of Alaska, then some people will point to the progress made to that species. If the species becomes endangered, then some people will beg that we leave that particular area free.

Of course, it's just a theory of mine.
 
danoff
Your gas would be a hell of a lot cheaper if they'd lay off the taxes over there.

Yes but these taxes are partly used for the protection of environment and they teach people not toab use the resources of the world... and it pushes alternative energies and new technologies... You destroy the world with this waste... ... nobody can deny that... What do you think what happens if the gulf stream dies ? Then you can invade Mexico in order to survive... I don't want to start flaming here, but the major problem seems to be your actual president, I don't really think that the Iraq war was a bad idea, but your president doesn't want to take responsibility for the world ( Kyoto agreement ) and that is his greatest disadvantage... I'm no enviromental angel flying around the planet, I drive a Sti... but hey I pay a lot for that and the gas price prevents a wasting behavior in general ... I don't complain, because it is right and I know, that I have to pay hard if I want to destroy the earth more than needed in order to come from A to B...
 
pupik
Personally, I've always thought we're really saving the reserves in Alaska for when the rest of the world runs dry in about 50-100 years. This way, we're in charge of the oil supply to other nations, and OPEC can go back to making castles out of sand.

We can test the environmental aspect later on; but nobody's going to be happy with the results. If a certain type of creature is thriving in the middle of Alaska, then some people will point to the progress made to that species. If the species becomes endangered, then some people will beg that we leave that particular area free.

Of course, it's just a theory of mine.

alternative energies is the only key... solar energy to produce H2 ... cars etc are only one point, but 80% wouldn't care about driving a hybrid or whatever, and those people who want gas cars should pay for this luxury... btw, I read something that in California laws should become really extreme within the next few years, is that true ? ( Emissions etc )
 
Yes but these taxes are partly used for the protection of environment and they teach people not toab use the resources of the world... and it pushes alternative energies and new technologies... You destroy the world with this waste... ... nobody can deny that... What do you think what happens if the gulf stream dies ? Then you can invade Mexico in order to survive... I don't want to start flaming here, but the major problem seems to be your actual president, I don't really think that the Iraq war was a bad idea, but your president doesn't want to take responsibility for the world ( Kyoto agreement ) and that is his greatest disadvantage... I'm no enviromental angel flying around the planet, I drive a Sti... but hey I pay a lot for that and the gas price prevents a wasting behavior in general ... I don't complain, because it is right and I know, that I have to pay hard if I want to destroy the earth more than needed in order to come from A to B...

The Kyoto thing is a sham. I think it's pathetic. Look your government is in the business of "teaching" you not to "abuse" the environment by taking your money. If you like that that's fine but stop b*tching about the prices you pay for gas.

As oil starts to become scarce prices will go up. When that happens (like I said $4/gallon in the states) then you'll see the free market respond in a way your government hasn't been able to.
 
vladimir
you should have a look on how we built railways and highways in germany. they all go zig-zag around villages, places were strangee birds live, places were strange plants stay, special woods and whatnot. so in the end the highway is twice as long and all the cars use twice as much fuel and all the birds, flowers, trees and people suffocate because of all the extra CO and CO2. ;)

Sad how true it is.
 
danoff
The Kyoto thing is a sham. I think it's pathetic. Look your government is in the business of "teaching" you not to "abuse" the environment by taking your money. If you like that that's fine but stop b*tching about the prices you pay for gas.

As oil starts to become scarce prices will go up. When that happens (like I said $4/gallon in the states) then you'll see the free market respond in a way your government hasn't been able to.

:lol: AHAHA... wake up dude, 60 % of the world population is by far to SILLY to do anything right without being forced to... if you want to wait until the day the normal population will solve world's problems, well, then I hope you have a lot of time...
The majority would start to complain when 50% of them die because of pollution... the world is no happy paradise... money is the king... everybody wants a maximum for himself... no matter what consequenses that has... and that is not an American problem but that is the case in every nation... It is the job of the intelligent people and governments to take care of the world... and the biggest polluter on earth shouldn't be the last to join the wise nations... and I know a lot of Americans personally, who hate the behavior of your actual government concerning the environment, perhaps not a every truck driving redneck, but if we would have waited here in Germany for every idiot we wouldn't have achieved anything...
 
AHAHA... wake up dude, 60 % of the world population is by far to SILLY to do anything right without being forced to... if you want to wait until the day the normal population will solve world's problems, well, then I hope you have a lot of time...
The majority would start to complain when 50% of them die because of pollution... the world is no happy paradise... money is the king... everybody wants a maximum for himself... no matter what consequenses that has... and that is not an American problem but that is the case in every nation... It is the job of the intelligent people and governments to take care of the world... and the biggest polluter on earth shouldn't be the last to join the wise nations... and I know a lot of Americans personally, who hate the behavior of your actual government concerning the environment, perhaps not a every truck driving redneck, but if we would have waited here in Germany for every idiot we wouldn't have achieved anything...

Look, people follow their pocketbooks. When gas starts to become scarce the price will go up and they'll look for alternatives.

Gas prices will rise naturally as supply runs out. The result will be a switch to alternative technologies and a reduction in pollution. In the meantime your government is stealing your money in hopes of controlling your behavior.
 
danoff
Look, people follow their pocketbooks. When gas starts to become scarce the price will go up and they'll look for alternatives.

Gas prices will rise naturally as supply runs out. The result will be a switch to alternative technologies and a reduction in pollution. In the meantime your government is stealing your money in hopes of controlling your behavior.

Yes, but what you don't seem to get is, that you POLLUTE the world with burning fossils, that you heat up the atmosphere and that the consequences might be fatal, as I said it is possible that a dissapearing gulf stream turns Northamerica into a ice desert... + you seem to forget that oil is needed for many other products, like plastic and medicaments, oil is almost in everything, yes I konw that a lot of stuff can be made out of different materials, but why should we wait until everything is wasted and the planet poulluted ? And for what ? You can also drive with alternative energies... ok I don't want a electric Porsche that makes zooooom when it accerleates, but the majority doesn't car about this carfreak stuff, so nobody has a problem, see?
Waiting until the end is not intelligent, a common human problem I see that and I have to face it everytime I think about learning for university early, not 10 days before the tests....
 
Yes, but what you don't seem to get is, that you POLLUTE the world with burning fossils, that you heat up the atmosphere and that the consequences might be fatal, as I said it is possible that a dissapearing gulf stream turns Northamerica into a ice desert... + you seem to forget that oil is needed for many other products, like plastic and medicaments, oil is almost in everything, yes I konw that a lot of stuff can be made out of different materials, but why should we wait until everything is wasted and the planet poulluted ? And for what ? You can also drive with alternative energies... ok I don't want a electric Porsche that makes zooooom when it accerleates, but the majority doesn't car about this carfreak stuff, so nobody has a problem, see?
Waiting until the end is not intelligent, a common human problem I see that and I have to face it everytime I think about learning for university early, not 10 days before the tests....

Who said anything about waiting until the end? I'm talking about waiting until the prices go up further. That's not the end. But it is the time when everyone will VOLUNTARILY cry out for change. All of the sudden there will be HUGE demand for alternative energy cars (and other products). You won't have to steal people's money to create insentives. You won't have to fund a project with taxpayer dollars to get it going - it'll get going to take advantage of all of the new consumers. People will make fortunes from their efforst (rather than be ruined by government).

This doomsday talk isn't helping either. You're getting pretty sensational with the "10 days before the test" business. The fact of the matter is that gas prices are going up NOW and will continue to go up over the long run - which will continue to automatically funnel money into alternatives.
 
danoff
Who said anything about waiting until the end? I'm talking about waiting until the prices go up further. That's not the end. But it is the time when everyone will VOLUNTARILY cry out for change. All of the sudden there will be HUGE demand for alternative energy cars (and other products). You won't have to steal people's money to create insentives. You won't have to fund a project with taxpayer dollars to get it going - it'll get going to take advantage of all of the new consumers. People will make fortunes from their efforst (rather than be ruined by government).

This doomsday talk isn't helping either. You're getting pretty sensational with the "10 days before the test" business. The fact of the matter is that gas prices are going up NOW and will continue to go up over the long run - which will continue to automatically funnel money into alternatives.

Well, I really think you miss my point... and your argument is also a litlle...well... because : We started the decrease of pollution earlier, and if the US would have done that too the world would have saved a lot of resources, I don't know the exact figures, but you play a huge role in wasting ( or "using")resources and with that in polluting ... and you could have stopped that years ago as we did, or right now...
Second : Waiting until the end... why do prices rise ? One important reason is the
fact, that the end aproches...

Third point might be, that Germany is a pionner in enviromental technologies ( along with Japan ) and exports them worldwide ... a market you could have entered years ago... japanese ( gas prices equal to Europe ) is No. 1 in alternative energy cars... again a hard hit for US car industry....
 
Max_DC
That really makes me angry.... what do you want ? The USA wastes the world resources like nobody else, I pay 1,69 USD for one litre, yes ONE litre 100 Octan fuel
so what do you want? Your gas is cheap as hell, I hope the prices will raise like they did here in Europe... have fun with paying 5 $ +... hey what about driving other cars than 6 litre V8 3 ton trucks ?
But really what annoys me most is Mr. Jesus Religion himself.... is that a christian attitude ? Protecting the enviroment would be a better hobby for you than giving quotes out of a 2000 year old book all day long...wtf..... :yuck:

Wow thats the rudest comment I've heard in a while, and there is not need to attack his religion just because you disagree with him. I don't think I can even take your comments seriously if you are going to have a disscussion like that.

Anyways some of us need a big truck to haul around whatever. I use my dad's truck to haul my dirt bike around, I could do it with mine but it's lowered. And you make it sound like Amercians drive big cars, not really many of us drive small ones. It's just I prefer something bigger so I don't die in an accident.
 
BlazinXtreme
Wow thats the rudest comment I've heard in a while, and there is not need to attack his religion just because you disagree with him. I don't think I can even take your comments seriously if you are going to have a disscussion like that.

Anyways some of us need a big truck to haul around whatever. I use my dad's truck to haul my dirt bike around, I could do it with mine but it's lowered. And you make it sound like Amercians drive big cars, not really many of us drive small ones. It's just I prefer something bigger so I don't die in an accident.

Well you are right in a way... it sounds a bit too rude.... But a man of god who accepts the death of god's creation for his personal pleasure ( driving a lot with cheap gas, buying video games for the saved money ) doesn't fit into the picture he provides here with his bible quotes and his 19th century radical opinions... offensive again? I don't want to attack him personally but it seems fake to me, sorry if I hurt his feelings, but I'm sure he is able to handle some critisism ....

I'm not a truck fan, but I don't want to take your holy truck away from you ;) , But
either pay for the possibilty of transporting your dirt bike by accepting high gas prices or drive a SUV with alternative energies, I know it isn't out yet, but hey ou work at GM, suggest that... might be the begin of a dream career for you, that is the future.....
 
XVII
i dont had the opportunity of filling up my gas tank when gas prices in the states were a dollar, but now being 2.29 and rising...will i ever see gas prices back down to a dollar?

Plus all this commotion with oil in alaska that we won't drill because of environmental issues? Isn't most of alaska barren wasteland anyhow? If we did drill in alaska, would we still have to buy oil from other places?
Bringing this back on topic...

This is being discussed on a dozen boards and mailing lists, and the arguments sum up to three things:

A) It'll "destroy" an untouched pristine wildlife refuge.
B) It only has ten weeks/six months/less than a year's oil so it's not worth tapping.
C) It won't affect oil prices.

Plus the usual side jabs of it taking years to ramp up to production, etc.

The typical argument is "Why not spend all the exploration and development money on researching alternative fuels?"

In response:

As far as the "destruction", the entire Arctic National Wildlife Refuge is 19.5 million acres, or just under the size of the entire State of Ohio. The Coastal Plain, the only area to be explored, is 1.5 million acres, and the actual "footprint", or area that can be developed, altered or even driven on, is 2,000 acres, or smaller than just the parking lot at JFK International Airport.

That's just over three square miles in a state of 572,000 square miles, or four times the size of California.

You'd have a hard time "destroying" it with a nuclear warhead, let alone a few roads.

Now, the majority of the exploration and drilling will take place in the winter, on roads and pads made of ice. Snow will be dozed into berms, flooded, and smoothed. Drilling modules trucked in, set up, and operated. Come spring, the rig is dismantled; the modules disconnected trucked back out. The roads and pads melt, leaving only a wellhead, a device about eight feet high, on a pad of gravel about ten feet in diameter.

Pipelines for outlying wells can be a flexible stainless tube, simply unrolled and laid down. When the well is depleted, the pipe is rolled up, leaving no pylons, no legs, no trenches, nothing.

Some new production pads will be made, yes. But again, you're looking at pads of a few acres, in an area literally a million times that size.

As for the wildlife, they are almost entirely migratory, passing by the production equipment a few times a year. Thirty years of North Slope production hasn't affected the Caribou in the least- their numbers are actually growing, and have been for over a decade.

'Slope' workers are forbidden from even honking a truck horn at the animals. There is no hunting of them, no harassment. If and when wildlife shows up on the pad, it's the workers that shut down and get out of the way, not the other way around.

"B" is, of course, a straw man argument, not only wrong but intentionally misleading.

Yes, if only ANWR production was taken into account, it would indeed be something like a year's supply. But obviously we're not going to stop production on the Slope, and in Texas and Pennsylvania, stop importing from Saudi Arabia and Venezuela, and shut down the Gulf rigs to JUST live off the estimated ANWR production.

None of those will, of course, happen. To say otherwise is either willful misdirection or plain ignorance.

Now, the US consumes about 19.7 million barrels of oil a day, about 55% of which is imported, mainly from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iraq and Venezuela.

Best estimates from ANWR say it could pump a million barrels a day, possibly surpassing the North Slopes' current 3/4-million barrels a day. Personally I think that's a bit optimistic, but even if it "only" pumped half a million barrels per day, that's better than 5% of the current US production today.

Also, at about $50 a barrel at the moment, if ANWR means we can reduce Saudi imports by the same half-million a day, that's a quarter of a billion dollars a day going to US or US-based companies, and staying in US employees' pockets. And NOT, I might add, going to a barely semi stable theocratic dictatorship with known anti-American tendencies.

And on top of THAT, the Saudis are doing very little, if any, research into alternative fuels or alternative energy sources. Whereas the US and British companies, like BP, Shell and Unocal, are doing extensive research and development on things like fuel cells, gas-to-liquids conversion, thermal depolymerization and even the old standbys of solar and wind power.

Personally, I'd prefer to see those companies have that quarter-billion a day, rather than some Saudi prince.

And "C", no, it probably won't affect oil prices. So? Won't higher gas prices tend to convince those "evil" SUV owners to maybe buy something a bit more efficient? I thought that's what everyone wanted.

Also keep in mind that higher oil prices are a good thing for domestic producers. If they were making a living back when oil was only $20 a barrel, the cost to produce that barrel hasn't gone up, only the value of that barrel has risen. That means better profits for oil companies- and if you try and tell me they're all evil oil barons bent on destroying the land for money, I suggest putting down the Greenpeace pamphlet and going to the library sometime.

The oil industry and it's subsidiaries is a huge industry in the US, employing millions. The company makes more money, then the employees make more money, and/or the company can hire more employees, etc.

And those same "evil" oil companies are the ones doing the majority of the alternative fuel research in the US right now. Higher profits means more R&D funding. Again, isn't that what everyone wants?

The other benefit to higher oil prices is the fact that oil recovery systems that were too costly to bother with before, are now becoming economically viable. The Alberta Tar Sands in Canada, for example, has estimated oil reserves in excess of Saudi Arabia's- some ten or twenty trillion barrels of oil.

Unfortunately, it's thick and tarry, and saturated into loose sands. It takes quite a bit of energy, and thus cost, to recover a barrel of oil, and get rid of the leftover residues and sand. The process loses money at $20 a barrel, but starts to make money at $35 or $40 a barrel.

If that could be brought to high production, the US could significantly cut it's Middle East imports.

There's also the brand-new conversion technology that can convert abundant and relatively cheap Natural Gas into a very clean non-cryogenic liquid that's basically a synthetic crude oil. This synthetic can be run directly into existing refineries as a feedstock.

There's the old but previously too-expensive process that can convert Coal into a sort of synthetic crude. And we have massive coal supplies; over 50% of our US electrical production is from coal-fired plants.

All these are not worth chasing at $20 a barrel, but start being very attractive at $50 a barrel.

All told, other than the purely emotional arguments of "it'll ruin an unspoiled wilderness!" and similar nonsense, I have yet to hear a good reason why ANWR should not be explored.

AO
 
Quality post, der Alta and fits perfect into the topic... Nevertheless the main problem is not this little area in Alaska ( as you've pointed out ), but in my opinion as I wrote before, the fact that the world burns to much fossil energy ( coal is not better ! )... I think there is already a topic abour that, so perhaps I am wrong in this thread, but you all seem to talk about a "sandcorn", while standing at the beach... why do you complain about the prices = Complain about your government that is strongly envolved in the oil business with personal interests ( money...) and that is not investing in the future of our planet, there is no need to free any country, if you slowly destroy the world by pollution, well, not that bringing freedom to countries ever was the real the intension of Bush.... $$$
 

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