Gas prices and alaska

[lsucowboy]

I don't know if anyone pointed this out, but drilling in Alaska wouldn't produce any recoverable oil for ~10 years. It wouldn't really lower prices, since prices are set on a global scale. Even if 1 million barrels are recovered per day, it would have little effect on the market, considering 80 million (and drastically rising) are consumed each day. Even if drilling in Alaska did something other than ruining an ecosystem, perminantly (I would love to hear how proponents of it justify ruining this ecosystem and/or anyone saying that it wouldn't do any damage), it would only increase, or more specifically allow us to increase our dependancy on oil as an energy source. What I mean, is that higher prices drives research for alternatives and public and private investment into those alternatives. Although, in a perfect world, we would be smart enough as a species, to plan ahead regardless of price, that isn't going to happen.

Also, I wish people would realize that no one has ever stated we will "run out" of oil, because we probably never will. What will happen is it's cost will be so great that we'll be forces to switch to more affordable means. Besides the inherant problems with switching, and the upcoming stratospheric inflation rates, we need to accept the fact that preparing now will ultimately save lives.

 

[Joey D]

Actually drilling wouldn't really ruin the ecosystem that much, sure some trees would be chopped down and what not. But these companies aren't out to kill the land. They would try to be as careful as they could because you'd get the tree huggers in there complaining and everything.

I would drastically reduce gas prices, but it would though. More domestic oil means cheaper prices for us, even if its only a few cents. I mean gas dropped around here the other day and it cost me somewhere like $3 less to fill up my truck. That adds up over time.

We will run out of oil, since it is a fossil fuel. We will switch before hand due to your reason, but since oil is not renewable we will run out eventually. Unless you know of away to make old things turn into oil faster then a couple million years or whatever it is.

 

[lsucowboy]

Actually drilling wouldn't really ruin the ecosystem that much, sure some trees would be chopped down and what not. But these companies aren't out to kill the land. They would try to be as careful as they could because you'd get the tree huggers in there complaining and everything.

I would drastically reduce gas prices, but it would though. More domestic oil means cheaper prices for us, even if its only a few cents. I mean gas dropped around here the other day and it cost me somewhere like $3 less to fill up my truck. That adds up over time.

We will run out of oil, since it is a fossil fuel. We will switch before hand due to your reason, but since oil is not renewable we will run out eventually. Unless you know of away to make old things turn into oil faster then a couple million years or whatever it is.

I say it will ruin the ecosystem for many well founded reasons, mainly dealing with the law of averages. First, they must drill test wells- thousands of them. That means creating an infrastructure and clearing an acre or two at a time for drilling rigs. On average, that adds up to many mishaps and spills, especially if a gusher is hit. There would have to be a large number of pipelines build to get the newly found oil out of there...Well, the Trans-Alaskan Pipeline already leaks 10 gallons a minute (I'm not sure if that number is an average of accidents/time between them, or an actual constant drip). Do you think building more and more pipelines would somehow miraculously never leak?

Because the oil is found in the US doesn't mean anything. Since the vast majority of our oil will be from foreign sources, we still depend on the global price. Saying that we will be any less dependant on things is rediculous as well. Why? Because the world's oil price is set in US dollars. Therefore, the little bit extra would be factored into the global price. If you believe it wouldn't be factored in on a global scale, I'll ask you why does OPEC have any impact whatsoever on our prices?

We will NEVER run out of oil because we can NEVER use it all. Since we've been pumping oil out of the ground, we've only been recovering about 45% of the oil that's down there. I heard a simply analogy explaining it the other day. Imagine eating a cup of yogurt with a large spoon. When you start, you can get a full spoonful of yogurt. But when you near the bottom, the yogurt is in the crevasses of the cup and it takes much skill to manuver your spoon to get the last remaining bit. Well, drilling for oil is even more complex than that. We normally leave around 60% of oil in each well. Not only is it because we can't really reach it, but because of stability issues. Sure, we pump in salt water or something so that we don't rupture the cavern, but at some point you hit a critical stage- my guess is due to the different densities of oil and water as a support medium. So we won't run out, simply because we can't really get to it all. That being said, new technologies are allowing us to go back to old wells and get out a few more barrels. So, we one day may be able to get to all the oil, but the price will be so great for recovery that it isn't worth it...

 

[HID45]

Don't really know about the whole Alaskan situation, but hey. I always wanted to say this, and now I will;

STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT YOUR GAS PRICES YOU SILLY AMERICANS!!!

Here gas (basic 95 octaine) costs 1,60 dollars PER LITRE. So shut your mouth and fill up those SUV's.

 

[Joey D]

Wow great arguement , think about the taxes you pay then get back to me. It's not my fault your government screws it's own people is it?

Not to mention you guys use way to high of an octane gas. I use 87 in my truck and I've never had a problem. I just think Europeans like to screw people over personally.

And oh yes because everyone in American owns, drives, and just makes havoc in their big old SUV's that get 6 gallons to the mile .

 

[Solid Fro]

lsucowboy needs to take a trip to http://www.anwr.org/

If we started drilling 20 years ago, we wouldn't have this problem.

 

[lsucowboy]

Wow great arguement , think about the taxes you pay then get back to me. It's not my fault your government screws it's own people is it?

Not to mention you guys use way to high of an octane gas. I use 87 in my truck and I've never had a problem. I just think Europeans like to screw people over personally.

And oh yes because everyone in American owns, drives, and just makes havoc in their big old SUV's that get 6 gallons to the mile .

Yeah, but they also have lower Income taxes, and get great social programs.

 

[Joey D]

Once again is that may fault? Not really, but I guess what I was trying to say is that Europeans either don't have the right to complain like American, or they do have the right to complain like us American. It doesn't work one way. If they want to complain go for it, I'm sure gas is expensive, but take away there unholy taxes and they would pay the same as us American's would.

To us American $3 is as high as it's ever been therefore it's expensive to us.

But since they lower income taxes and social programs ( ) then they shouldn't complain either since it all balances out.

 

[lsucowboy]

lsucowboy needs to take a trip to http://www.anwr.org/

If we started drilling 20 years ago, we wouldn't have this problem.

Already have. Everyone arguing in favor of it brings this up.

From this fact sheet, I can see that at best, there is 27 billion barrels of oil recoverable. Median is 18. We, in the US, use over 7 Billion a year, and rising. By 2020, we'll use over 10 billion. The world consumption would dry up the recoverable ANWR oil in less than a year, at 2000 levels.


Here's a chart you may want to take a look at.


Now, let's take a look at some "myths."

I want to point out some misleading statements whcih were made in the sheet they produced to "dispell myths".

"The U.S. Geological Survey says ANWR could produce up to 16 billion barrels of oil. That’s enough to replace 30 years of Saudi Arabian imports."
Saudi Arabia is responsible for only 13-14% of our annual oil imports. That ammounts to .98 billion a year. Even if our consumption levels remain neutral, by replacing Saudi Arabian imports with ANWR oil would mean we would use up the estimated reserves in 5.7, 16, 18, 27, 30 years? Which one would it be? They say 30. By the HIGHEST estimates, 27 would be the optimum number. By the estimate they use on the "myth" sheet, it would be 16 years. By the median estimation listed on the facts page, it would be 18 years. By the lowest estimate by the USGS, it is 5.7 BB- 16 is the highest. By any account, things don't add up. And remember, the year estimations I made based on their data disregarded the ever increasing demand for oil. In any event, there is nowheres near 30 years worth.

In response to the "myth" that "We can’t balance energy
exploration and our concern for the
environment," they contend, "Experience shows us we can.
For example, since Prudhoe Bay
production began, the Central Arctic
Caribou Herd has grown from 3,000
to 32,000."

I don't know what to say about this, really. As you can see, though, a larger herd of Caribou have their offspring in the very spot where the proposed ANWR drilling would take place.

And as you can see from this, the development of oil infrastructure nearby have drastically altered the habits of the aformentioned herd. Furthermore, although there has been a net increase, there was a drastic decrease in the mid 90's. If that's not enough, I will contend that this drastic increase is NOT healthy for the ecosystem. Why? Take any ecosystem, drastically change the number of the major members of that ecosystem and see if things are sustainable, stable.

"Seventy-five percent of Alaskans, including the original stewards of Alaska’s Coastal Plain — the native Inupiat people — support responsible energy exploration. With today’s advanced energy exploration technology, we can balance our need for energy and our concern for the environment."

Funny, tonight on the "Daily Show", they interviewed a Republican spinster- when asked what he would tell a politician to say instead of drilling for oil, he said "responsible energy exploration." But I'd really love to see the study that this was taken from because I don't know what alternative would be listed to "responsible energy exploration." Irresponsible energy exploration? Also taken into consideration should be the fact that these people don't pay taxes. The revenues from oil sales pay their taxes. State tax, that is.

Lastly, I would love to know what good it would do us if we " started drilling 20 years ago," and what problem wouldn't we have? We'd be nearly out of oil from there, consuming at the levels we import from Saudi Arabia.

 

[lsucowboy]

Once again is that may fault? Not really, but I guess what I was trying to say is that Europeans either don't have the right to complain like American, or they do have the right to complain like us American. It doesn't work one way. If they want to complain go for it, I'm sure gas is expensive, but take away there unholy taxes and they would pay the same as us American's would.

To us American $3 is as high as it's ever been therefore it's expensive to us.

But since they lower income taxes and social programs ( ) then they shouldn't complain either since it all balances out.

Actually, if you want to look at it that way, no one should complain, at all. Why? Because if oil would have kept up with inflation, we, as Americans, would be paying something like 6 dollars/gallon right now.

 

[Solid Fro]

Already have. Everyone arguing in favor of it brings this up.

From this fact sheet, I can see that at best, there is 27 billion barrels of oil recoverable. Median is 18. We, in the US, use over 7 Billion a year, and rising. By 2020, we'll use over 10 billion. The world consumption would dry up the recoverable ANWR oil in less than a year, at 2000 levels.

Who said ANWR will be our only source? ANWR will only help relieve demand on foreign oil, not replace it.

Funny, tonight on the "Daily Show", they interviewed a Republican spinster...

People actually watch this show? I couldn't even laugh at the Kerry jokes. Only political posers would find value out of this show.

 

[HID45]

Don't really know about the whole Alaskan situation, but hey. I always wanted to say this, and now I will;

STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT YOUR GAS PRICES YOU SILLY AMERICANS!!!

Here gas (basic 95 octaine) costs 1,60 dollars PER LITRE. So shut your mouth and fill up those SUV's.

Quoting myself here... I MIGHT have been just a little bit drunk there writing that argument. Didn'y mean to flame or anything, sorry about that.

I am very well aware of the differencies between taxation policies and social benefits between N.A and Europe. Still, the thing is I'm jealous to you american folks, traffic wise. I admit it. I don't know do you have THE chepest cars and gas in the world but I bet you are close. I'm just plain jealous.

I consider myself as an car enthusiast. I like cars and driving very much. I read lot of car magazines. I play driving games. Sad thing is I'm a student doing part-time job. Because of car and gas prices here, all I can afford here is a -98 Corolla with whooping 1.3 liter engine. Anyone up for some street racing??
For a long time I have dreamed owning a Honda S2000. And I'm sure I will someday. But just look a the prices, dudes. $33150 in USA, $94004 (!!) in Finland. Almost three times as much. Doesn't make sense to me.
If (after I graduate) I'm assigned to USA the first thing I would do is to run to nearest Honduh dealer and got myself a half-free sports car and then drive around 24/7 using half-free gas.

So sorry about the flaming earlier, will not happen again. I'm not contributing so much to whole Alaska debate here so I think I'll just stop now and go sleep my hangover away.

 

[Max_DC]

someday. But just look a the prices, dudes. $33150 in USA, $94004 (!!) in Finland. Almost three times as much. Doesn't make sense to me.
If (after I graduate) I'm assigned to USA the first thing I would do is to run to nearest Honduh dealer and got myself a half-free sports car and then drive around 24/7 using half-free gas.

Today I filled up my car, and i payed 1,74 $ per litre = 6,60 $ / gallon ... I am slowly reaching a point, where even I think it is enough...

94000$ for a S2000? That can't be right... we pay 47000 $ here in Germany... you can't have taxes that high, can you ?

 

[Famine]

Not to mention you guys use way to high of an octane gas. I use 87 in my truck and I've never had a problem.

This has been covered earlier.

In Europe, pumps are labelled by RON - Research Octane Number. We have 95RON regular and 98RON Super-Unleaded.

In the US, pumps are labelled by PON - Pump Octance Number. PON is calculated by adding the RON to the MON (Motor Octane Number) and dividing by two.

RON is calculated at 65.6 degrees inlet temperature and 600rpm. MON is calculated at 148.9 degrees inlet temperature and 900rpm. MON is typically much lower than RON, so PON is typically lower than RON.

European 95RON is equivalent to about 91PON. European 98RON is equivalent to about 94PON.

One should always use the lowest octane rated fuel to give little to no knock. If your engine is fine on 87PON (about 91RON) I suspect it's a massive capacity engine with a low specific power output. More stressed engines require higher octane fuels to prevent preignition and engine damage. High power turbos require 98RON typically as a minimum.

 

[HID45]

Today I filled up my car, and i payed 1,74 $ per litre = 6,60 $ / gallon ... I am slowly reaching a point, where even I think it is enough...

94000$ for a S2000? That can't be right... we pay 47000 $ here in Germany... you can't have taxes that high, can you ?

94000$ is exactly the price. Without accessories, of course. Check it out.

http://www.honda.fi/models/?main=prices

74000 euros translates into 94000$ according to current exchange rate. Anyone want an NSX for 248 000$?? We got 'em here... 👍

 

[lsucowboy]

Who said ANWR will be our only source? ANWR will only help relieve demand on foreign oil, not replace it.



People actually watch this show? I couldn't even laugh at the Kerry jokes. Only political posers would find value out of this show.

Thanks for totally ignoring the point, . As I pointed out, it wouldn't allieviate much demand on foreign oil. At most, it would relieve the demand from Saudi Arabia, for somewheres between 5 and 18 years. And even that is assuming our consumption levels stay at the year 2000 levels. As we all know, that isn't going to happen. We are already significantly above that.

I'm so happy you don't watch the Daily Show. I do. It fits in nicely with my sense of humor and usually is a convienient time to take time off from studying. If you are implying that I am a "political poser".... Well, we'll see about that.

 

[Max_DC]

94000$ is exactly the price. Without accessories, of course. Check it out.

http://www.honda.fi/models/?main=prices

74000 euros translates into 94000$ according to current exchange rate. Anyone want an NSX for 248 000$?? We got 'em here... 👍

Wow that is extreme... is that a matter of taxes or just Honda policy ? You know how about importing it from Germany or so ? I mean ok, perhaps its just because convertibles are not a Top seller in a norrdic country and that is the reason?