General Tuning Guide (Updated 1.09)
- Thread starter DolHaus
- 631 comments
- 162,593 views
- 3,867
- Saltash
- Dolhaus
Ok, so the easiest ways of stabilising a car are lowering the car to bring its centre of gravity closer to the ground, raising the rear ride height above the front to move the centre of gravity towards the front wheels, and adding some ballast to the front of the car to again move the the centre of gravity towards the front.
The other key element is the LSD, raise the Initial to stabilise the rear axle, lower the Accel to help prevent the outside wheel spinning when you accelerate and increase the Decel to keep the rear wheels in check when braking. Adding some rear toe out will also help to stabilise the car when accelerating and braking.
MR's are naturally unstable, the weight is mostly at the rear of the car which makes the car very sharp and easy to over rotate, this is both a blessing and a curse because it allows for fast direction changes meaning you can enter corners faster and maintain rotation but they are kind of unstable at the limit and will tend to spin rather than slide when the grip limit is exceeded.
When driving them you need to alter your driving style to suit the car, try to get all the braking taken care of before you turn into the corner, turn in smoothly in order to avoid unbalancing the car, avoid clipping curbs or cutting the grass where possible, try to make sure you are pointing mostly straight before getting back on the power as it is very easy to lose grip on the outside rear wheel which will lead to a spin
- 94
- United Kingdom
Does anyone know if the camber issues have now been fixed, sure I saw this mentioned in one of the recent updates?
- 3,867
- Saltash
- Dolhaus
Sort of....
Its somewhat of a contentious issue amongst the tuning community, its not massively reducing grip as it did pre 1.09 but gains are still fairly fickle and hard to find
- 1,175
- In front of you.
- F1_Racer68
Sort of....
Its somewhat of a contentious issue amongst the tuning community, its not massively reducing grip as it did pre 1.09 but gains are still fairly fickle and hard to find
To echo what @DolHaus said, short answer is YES..... and NO
They claimed to have fixed it with the 1.09 update, but in my opinion it still has the same issues such as:
- Adding more rear camber than front camber causes rear end to loosen up. Actually reduces rear cornering grip instead of improving it.
- Small amounts (below 1.0) seem to work best
On most of my FR tunes I end up somewhere in the 0.5 front and 0.8 rear range. I find this split helps with mid corner rotation as the rear has just a little bit of slip to it. I almost NEVER go over 1.0 on either end. Keep in mind that this is personal preference and due to individual driving styles you will get hundreds of different opinions.
Definitely it is not back to how it worked in GT5, so I think most will still agree it is still "broken".
- 94
- United Kingdom
To echo what @DolHaus said, short answer is YES..... and NO
They claimed to have fixed it with the 1.09 update, but in my opinion it still has the same issues such as:
- Adding more rear camber than front camber causes rear end to loosen up. Actually reduces rear cornering grip instead of improving it.
- Small amounts (below 1.0) seem to work best
On most of my FR tunes I end up somewhere in the 0.5 front and 0.8 rear range. I find this split helps with mid corner rotation as the rear has just a little bit of slip to it. I almost NEVER go over 1.0 on either end. Keep in mind that this is personal preference and due to individual driving styles you will get hundreds of different opinions.
Definitely it is not back to how it worked in GT5, so I think most will still agree it is still "broken".
Thanks guys, have just returned to GT6 from FM5 and hadn't even started playing around with camber settings so wasn't sure if it was worth even messing with it if still broken, if there are some small gains possible may give it a go.
- 3,867
- Saltash
- Dolhaus
Its worth fiddling around with, can be useful for adjusting the characteristics of a car. The losses are small and only really show up if you are building a time attack style car where every tenth counts, for racing the losses are entirely manageable đź‘Ť
- 359
- Virginia Beach, VA, US
It can be difficult to be as critical when tuning for people who don't have a real knowledge base for it other than the game's advice. I usually base my tunes off of setups that are already in the game, such as the trial celica. But I appreciate this thread.
- 3,867
- Saltash
- Dolhaus
Its sort of complicated but also quite simple in principal. If you understand the physics and processes involved then it is fairly easy to work out where to begin, this said, unless you've had some form of mechanical/engineering training then chances are you won't have had exposure to the core principals.
I trained and worked as a mechanical engineer when I left school and have spent countless hours learning to understand the physics involved so its not so difficult for me but I can completely understand how someone from a less specialised knowledge pool might be overwhelmed as these things aren't taught in normal education. My best advice would probably be to spend some time trying to learn the basic principals such as how the centre of gravity/weight distribution affects things, weight transfer, friction/grip/slip and basic aerodynamics. Once you have an understanding of these things then it makes it much easier to get your head around and put them into practice đź‘Ť
Basing your tunes off of pre existing setups can work but understanding why these tunes work and what affects the parameters will work a lot better in the long run, it takes time and effort but a bi of learning never did any harm
- 359
- Virginia Beach, VA, US
Its sort of complicated but also quite simple in principal. If you understand the physics and processes involved then it is fairly easy to work out where to begin, this said, unless you've had some form of mechanical/engineering training then chances are you won't have had exposure to the core principals.
I trained and worked as a mechanical engineer when I left school and have spent countless hours learning to understand the physics involved so its not so difficult for me but I can completely understand how someone from a less specialised knowledge pool might be overwhelmed as these things aren't taught in normal education. My best advice would probably be to spend some time trying to learn the basic principals such as how the centre of gravity/weight distribution affects things, weight transfer, friction/grip/slip and basic aerodynamics. Once you have an understanding of these things then it makes it much easier to get your head around and put them into practice đź‘Ť
Basing your tunes off of pre existing setups can work but understanding why these tunes work and what affects the parameters will work a lot better in the long run, it takes time and effort but a bi of learning never did any harm
Couldn't agree more, that's why this thread is great. I have made a couple of decent tunes since discovering this. I am out of a PS3 at the moment so I've returned to GT4 but nevertheless made a few good tunes.
- 1,370
- Laval, Canada
- OutbackV6
I've been working on a few more tests and before continuing I have an existential question for you
. Will the camber angle have a different effect depending on the tire compound used? For example if I put F=0.5 & R=0.5 on CS, and then put SS, will my time difference between the two types of tires be the same as if I did the same test with camber at F=0.0 , R=0.0? ( I guess you sort of wish I had asked what came first, the chicken or the egg instead). I'm thinking of writing a Tuners Guide, going to call it "1000 ways to never finish a tune in". I'll probably try this at some point, but if others have done this I could change my title to 999 way to not finish a tune.
Take care and until the next
.
. Will the camber angle have a different effect depending on the tire compound used? For example if I put F=0.5 & R=0.5 on CS, and then put SS, will my time difference between the two types of tires be the same as if I did the same test with camber at F=0.0 , R=0.0? ( I guess you sort of wish I had asked what came first, the chicken or the egg instead). I'm thinking of writing a Tuners Guide, going to call it "1000 ways to never finish a tune in". I'll probably try this at some point, but if others have done this I could change my title to 999 way to not finish a tune.Take care and until the next
.
- 3,867
- Saltash
- Dolhaus
Its.... complicatedI've been working on a few more tests and before continuing I have an existential question for you
Take care and until the next
In short - When you change the tyre, you alter the grip levels. If you increase the grip levels then you will encounter more body roll and and change the active geometry of the suspension, camber works in direct relation to suspension geometry so therefore you are altering the ideal camber angle.
1000 ways to never finish a tune -
Chapter 1: Giving it a good coat of looking at
Chapter 2: Making a plan but not writing it down
Chapter 3: "Research"
Chapter 4: What's for dinner? How much does my TV weigh? Where exactly is Timbuktu? And other such important questions
Chapter 5: Making a new plan because you've forgotten the 1st one
Chapter 6: Rim selection - They've got to be worth at least 3/10ths
Chapter 7: Promotional photos and the importance of being able to do burnouts/donuts
- 1,370
- Laval, Canada
- OutbackV6
It would make sense, since almost everything in the suspension settings can benefit from minor changes when you change tire types. So I think I'll try to see what the difference there is at some point in time. (Just realized I should have quoted the preceding post).
I was thinking that chapter 6 could easily be stretched to three different chapters, I'm pretty good at wasting time & space, đź’ˇ time divided by distance (space) = speed, snail speed = 24 hours divided by 1 meter = 0.024 kmh, now that's fast. Take care of yourself, and as a great prophet once said, "Watch out where the huskies go, don't you eat that yellow snow" (Frank Zappa)
I was thinking that chapter 6 could easily be stretched to three different chapters, I'm pretty good at wasting time & space, đź’ˇ time divided by distance (space) = speed, snail speed = 24 hours divided by 1 meter = 0.024 kmh, now that's fast
. Take care of yourself, and as a great prophet once said, "Watch out where the huskies go, don't you eat that yellow snow" (Frank Zappa)
- 3,867
- Saltash
- Dolhaus
http://www.gizmag.com/fermilab-holometer-examines-spacetime/16829/It would make sense, since almost everything in the suspension settings can benefit from minor changes when you change tire types. So I think I'll try to see what the difference there is at some point in time. (Just realized I should have quoted the preceding post).
I was thinking that chapter 6 could easily be stretched to three different chapters, I'm pretty good at wasting time & space, đź’ˇ time divided by distance (space) = speed, snail speed = 24 hours divided by 1 meter = 0.024 kmh, now that's fast
I'm just going to leave that there and walk away whistling a jaunty tune
Happy procrastinating good sir
Thorin Cain
Premium
- 2,298
- Glasgow
- THORIN-RAYVEN
Would that time not have been better spent clearing up any misunderstanding, rather than just plain insulting someone who has spent a lot of time and effort trying to help others by producing this guide?
I'm pretty sure DolHaus will happily admit he doesn't know it all and is keen to learn as would I. So, would you like to share your better understanding of the physics involved or are you just interested in throwing sticks and stones?
eclipsee
Premium
- 796
- Spain
- eclipsi_RC
It's not needed to be so upset, you take an observation as an insult where it isn't.
BTW, @DolHaus is enough mature to reply me if he needs to do so, I don't think he needs anyone else to reply what I said to him, in case he feels offended for my observation I'll offer my apologies with no problem at all.
I won't share my understanding of the camber effects because it's not needed, they're worldwide known and there are thousands of documents in internet about this.
BTW, @DolHaus is enough mature to reply me if he needs to do so, I don't think he needs anyone else to reply what I said to him, in case he feels offended for my observation I'll offer my apologies with no problem at all.
I won't share my understanding of the camber effects because it's not needed, they're worldwide known and there are thousands of documents in internet about this.
eclipsee
Premium
- 796
- Spain
- eclipsi_RC
The correct text in your guide should be this one:
Here we see a wheel at 0.0 degrees of camber, the contact patch is bigger in a straight line than a wheel with heavy negative camber, which means it can handle less lateral (sideways) forces because there's less contact patch when cornering, but it can handle more linear (accelerating/braking) forces because there's more contact patch when going in a straight line. This makes it ideal for accelerating and braking.
Here we see a wheel with negative camber, the contact patch is smaller in a straight line than a wheel with 0.0 camber, which means it can handle more lateral (sideways) forces because there's more contact patch when cornering, but it can handle less linear (accelerating/braking) forces because there's less contact patch when going in a straight line. This makes it ideal for cornering.
Here we see a wheel at 0.0 degrees of camber, the contact patch is bigger in a straight line than a wheel with heavy negative camber, which means it can handle less lateral (sideways) forces because there's less contact patch when cornering, but it can handle more linear (accelerating/braking) forces because there's more contact patch when going in a straight line. This makes it ideal for accelerating and braking.
Here we see a wheel with negative camber, the contact patch is smaller in a straight line than a wheel with 0.0 camber, which means it can handle more lateral (sideways) forces because there's more contact patch when cornering, but it can handle less linear (accelerating/braking) forces because there's less contact patch when going in a straight line. This makes it ideal for cornering.
- 3,867
- Saltash
- Dolhaus
Please do, I'm always interested in furthering my own knowledge so I can impart it on others. I do not claim to be an expert on camber, I have done research so as to gain an understanding and expressed it in my own words.
The issue I'm seeing with your statement about the shape of the contact patch on a cambered wheel is that you are saying leaning the tyre onto a narrower edge is somehow making the contact patch wider? And conversely with the 0.0 wheel that using the full width of the tyre is somehow making the contact patch narrower?
To me this doesn't make sense
just my two cents but i think that eclipsee is right for what happens in real
no camber makes the car accelerate and brake better
camber makes the car able to corner with higher speed
then someone with the tools can make a laboratory experimentation
take a rubber band put weight on it
take a dynamo-meter and pull it by the narrow section,
record the force needed to make it slide
now do the same experiment but pulling by the wide section
like that we will see if there is differences
but i'm sure it has already been covered and explained somewhere
no camber makes the car accelerate and brake better
camber makes the car able to corner with higher speed
then someone with the tools can make a laboratory experimentation
take a rubber band put weight on it
take a dynamo-meter and pull it by the narrow section,
record the force needed to make it slide
now do the same experiment but pulling by the wide section
like that we will see if there is differences
but i'm sure it has already been covered and explained somewhere
Last edited:
eclipsee
Premium
- 796
- Spain
- eclipsi_RC
I'm not saying this, I'm saying that leaning the tyre onto a narrower edge (negative camber) is making the contact patch narrower and smaller in a straight line (less grip), but when you are cornering this contact patch becomes bigger due to the tire flex and body roll (more grip).
Conversely the 0.0 wheel is using the full width patch when going straight (max possible grip), but when cornering that patch becomes narrower and smaller (less grip).
@PsuPepperoni explained this quite well in his first post of the Camber Theory, this is what happens in real life but it's not well modeled in GT6.
In my opinion, in GT6, camber works like in real life in a straight line (it can be easily proven), but tire drag is not modeled, as for cornering, camber angle is a mess, it's like PD forgot to model the tire flex.
Links:
====
Camber angle explained (source: Wikipedia)
Racing setup, look at wheel camber component (source: Wikipedia)
wheel alignment (source: Hankook) (negative camber cornering performance)
Camber angle explained (source:Tire Rack)
If you need more links just let me know.
Thorin Cain
Premium
- 2,298
- Glasgow
- THORIN-RAYVEN
Firstly. Apologies for sticking my big nose in earlier. Clear the air time...
I read this thread to try and learn something new and I misunderstood your post. You see, an observation to me would be something like...
So I asked you two questions. Did I not?
Thank you for answering them so well.
Ah, now I see what you mean. And yeah, that actually sounds about right.
I read this thread to try and learn something new and I misunderstood your post. You see, an observation to me would be something like...
So I asked you two questions. Did I not?
Thank you for answering them so well.
Not exactly helpful but fair enough. And the other?...
Ah, now I see what you mean. And yeah, that actually sounds about right.
Now that wasn't too hard now was it? And it only took 13 and a half hours.
- 51,156
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
http://www.spcc.co.za/2014-regulations/
I'm sharing this for people to see what is involved in tuning vehicles to certain regulations. This particular series is the Bridgestone Super Production Series. It shows how much camber, toe angle is used for specific drivetrains.
I'm sharing this for people to see what is involved in tuning vehicles to certain regulations. This particular series is the Bridgestone Super Production Series. It shows how much camber, toe angle is used for specific drivetrains.
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