General Workout Routines and Questions

[Omnis]

I can't do chin-ups... 300 pounds to pull up. But, yeah, I already do my compound exercises. Just looking for that killer lat exercise to throw in since my traps and teres stay fried all week while my lats seem to have it easy.

And, dude, you don't have to be a bodybuilder to have big arms. Your arms are bigger than 99% of the population. @Pako's are like 99.9999%ile too. I'm still trying to get out of the first standard deviation. But, anyway, my point is that it's obvious that you lift. Looking at me? Maybe not so much... but I'm working on it because, however shallow it may seem, I think it lends a sense of confidence and also projects an image of health. The latter is very important to me. I don't want to be an obese doctor.

Anyway, I found a great exercise that I can't believe I didn't even consider. They're called kayak rows and they're a pulldown variation.





My gym also has a bar with sleeve-bearing handgrips that attaches to either end. Perhaps placing a cable on the end of this bar and doing the row will work even better.

 

[Bram Turismo]

This is incorrect from a training perspective. It's good for overhead pressing for competition though.

Let me re-phrase that for you so that what you were actually trying to say comes through more clearly. Because the way you wrote it, it makes zero sense:

A strict overhead press suits bodybuilding more, while powerlifters prefer a push press.

A strict overhead press requires less explosiveness because it forces you to use the shoulders exclusively, thus you recruit more muscle fibres in the shoulders. Therefore more time under tension is used while doing this exercise, resulting in making it a better option for bodybuilding purposes.

With all due respect, but last I checked a push press wasn't part of the list of exercises weightlifters, strongmen, and powerlifters don't perform. I think you should take a step away from broscience. I have enough reasons to think a man with 30 years of experience in the business isn't trying to sell me crap and injure myself on purpose.

 

[Omnis]

Let me re-phrase that for you so that what you were actually trying to say comes through more clearly. Because the way you wrote it, it makes zero sense:

Actually, I thought I was pretty clear. See below:

For training the overhead press, you want to completely take your back out of the movement. None of that sway crap. And you don't want to shrug up your shoulders to your ears because that will most likely cause subacromial impingement depending on your anatomy.

But your attempt to clarify my statement shows that you didn't understand what I wrote.

A strict overhead press suits bodybuilding more, while powerlifters prefer a push press.

A strict overhead press requires less explosiveness because it forces you to use the shoulders exclusively, thus you recruit more muscle fibres in the shoulders. Therefore more time under tension is used while doing this exercise, resulting in making it a better option for bodybuilding purposes.

This has nothing to do with powerlifters vs bodybuilders. I don't even know where you're getting that from. Overhead pressing is a training exercise. If you want to do a training exercise correctly, you do it correctly. If you want to have a big ego and lift more than you could otherwise lift with correct technique, you can use your low back (the sway) or your legs (the push press) to "cheat" the weight up.

With all due respect, but last I checked a push press wasn't part of the list of exercises weightlifters, strongmen, and powerlifters don't perform. I think you should take a step away from broscience. I have enough reasons to think a man with 30 years of experience in the business isn't trying to sell me crap and injure myself on purpose.

When the clean and press was part of the Olympic games, push pressing was illegal. Any leg drive could disqualify the lift. Exaggerated sway could also DQ a lift. The reason they got rid of the lift was because "exaggerated" was too subjective to judge consistently. Eventually, guys looked like the dude @Michael88 posted, so the lift was rightly axed from competition.

Now, back to what I was getting at to begin with. Rippetoe demonstrates a good "competition" press. But why would you want to do those unless you were competing for something? Would you rather lift 25% more weight and put all that extra stress on your lower back, or would you rather train the lift correctly where the load is placed on the core musculature keeping neutral spine while the big movers do their jobs? If the former, you might as well go do incline presses. It will save your back, at least.

I don't know why you decided that you needed to have a hostile attitude. And accusing me of broscience... that's hilarious. Nobody is trying to fight here or be mean or dismissive. I thought I was being constructive in my response, anyway. The science is on my side as well, if Dr. Stuart McGill is to be believed. And I think I would trust him more than Rippetoe.

 

[Luminis]

Holy crap man, my spine's aching just from looking at that picture! Ouch!

Regarding the calory intake thingy, I'm currently averaging about 2,500 calories a day, give or take. That's slightly below maintanence for me, and I'm just 175 lbs / 79,5 kgs. Not even doing much cardio at the moment and my body fat is still decreasing (ever so slightly) over time. I'd personally advice against going with a calory deficit of 1,000 calories, let alone more. 500's a lot already. That big a deficit might degrade muscles as much as it'll cause a fat loss. That's my experience, at least.

Speaking of not doing cardio, I ordered some boxing equipment today (as mentioned in the Show of Your Latest Purchase threat), going to do some boxing with a friend of mine. Nothing serious, just throwing some punches once or twice a week. Helped a lot to improve my endurance and overall level of fitness while I was in school and I just dislike most other cardio excercises like running or cycling. What do you guys thing of boxing as a cardio workout? Any experiences?

 

[Michael88]

Holy crap man, my spine's aching just from looking at that picture! Ouch!

Yeah, thats really bad, though there is still something very similar to shoulder pressing in the strongmen competition called the log lift. There the athletes actually don't lean that much but they still use leg drive. I think if you were leaning like in the picture with 200kg on your arms your spine would simply snap right in half.



Thats pretty damn impressive by the way, with leg drive and some leaning I can do 100kg-110kg, once, that guy is doing twice as much. (But clearly with aids of roids though.)

 

[Michael88]

I just did military presses, standing with no leg drive or hip swinging, 2x 85kg, 3x80kg, and 2x 8 reps of 70kg. Doing them raw standing feels so much better than doing them seated.
I wonder if I could do more with a belt...

 

[phillgt2002]

Currently at 248 lbs. If I can get down to 240 by the end of May or early June, I'll probably shed a tear. I haven't noticed much out of the usual when it comes to toning after lifting. I don't know.

I just have to watch what I'm eating and make the calories I do eat worth it.

Say no to junk food

 

[EvanJamesLee]

I can do 20 chin ups in a row because I'm skinny. I only weigh around 125 pounds. Usually I do any work out in 3 sets of 8 though.

 

[Michael88]

I can do 20 chin ups in a row because I'm skinny. I only weigh around 125 pounds. Usually I do any work out in 3 sets of 8 though.

Skinny guys have it easy at body weight exercises. I crap out at around 9-10 chin ups (dead hang) with my 225lbs.

 

[Omnis]

I could do chinups at those weights.

 

[phillgt2002]

Skinny guys have it easy at body weight exercises. I crap out at around 9-10 chin ups (dead hang) with my 225lbs.

Yeah. Being 250lbs makes those workouts too strenuous on my body.

That and being somewhat weak right now.

 

[Michael88]

Yeah. Being 250lbs makes those workouts too strenuous on my body.

That and being somewhat weak right now.

Take comfort in the fact that most people can't do a single proper chin up, no matter their weight or age.

 

[phillgt2002]

How does 250lbs on a shoulder press machine like this look?

I think 250lbs is my near max.

 

[Michael88]

Get rid of that machine and learn to shoulder press with a barbell. According to science muscle activation is up to 25% greater when doing them standing because you need a lot of core to keep your upper body straight. Also doing them standing disengages your pecs which will help to lift when doing them seated.

Its much manlier to pick up a heavy weight from the floor and lifting it over your head instead doing it with a contraption helping you.

Really, if I was allowed only one suggestion to all the gym beginners it would be: screw the machines, work with free weights, you can thank me later.

 

[Omnis]

That's a terrible suggestion for beginners. Intermediate lifters, maybe. But machines can be great if designed right.

The one pictured is a good one. How much of that 250lbs is thrown up by momentum generated by your traps though? Can you do it slowly and controlled?

 

[phillgt2002]

That's a terrible suggestion for beginners. Intermediate lifters, maybe. But machines can be great if designed right.

The one pictured is a good one. How much of that 250lbs is thrown up by momentum generated by your traps though? Can you do it slowly and controlled?

Basically its all shoulders and traps. I don't know if I can go too slow without being unstable, but I can do it at an alright pace.

Also, I'm not that inexperienced at lifting, though I'm just starting back up. I understand what Michael means when he says that it's better to use a free bar with weights instead of fixed. You're getting the whole body working when doing lifts like shoulder presses and squats with a bar. (Main reason why i don't care for leg press machines.. When someone brags about the amount they can leg press, i just laugh.) Really, I don't know if it's me, but machines don't tire me as much as free weights. In order for me to get tired on machines, I have to push myself really hard.

 

[Michael88]

That's a terrible suggestion for beginners. Intermediate lifters, maybe. But machines can be great if designed right.

On the contrary, its the best and absolutely most important advice I can give, the most crucial thing for a beginner is to build a solid core and good stabilizers to prevent injury, you do not build a core from using cozy machines which support your back, disengage your abs + obliques and prevent you from developing a good balance.

Just make the test. Tell somebody who has spend most of his time in the gym using machines to do a heavy barbell overhead press. Or to lift something heavy like a washing machine upstairs. He either can't lift half of what he does on the machine or he will injure himself because of his underdeveloped stabilizers. I see that happen all the times.

The sole purpose of machines is to support free weight training, nothing else. But by all means, if you think training on machines is whats best go ahead, but let me tell you one more time, if you don't build a good core and stabilizers right from the start you'll inevitably run into problems down the road. The first thing a beginner should work on is the core.

Don't praise machines just because they feel so damn good, I know they do, just sitting there comfortably and focusing on one muscle group while not having to give a damn about the rest of your body. Oh and you can use more weight too!
Awesome? No.
Machines feel easy for a reason, free weights require much more full body strength and coordination, they hit the CNS much harder, build a better balanced system and are simply more effective in building raw strength.

 

[Omnis]

I don't disagree with you about the merits of free weights. However, we must have a different idea of what beginner means. Maybe everyone in Austria is already a terminator in the making.

My idea of beginner is much less capable than yours. You'd be surprised at what's out there.

 

[Michael88]

Its the other way around, the less capable the more important it is to start with free weights. Having people lift heavy stuff without having a good core that prevents them from screwing up their backs is a very bad idea.
The absolute first thing the should do is dead lifts, even if its performed with tiny weights.

My idea of beginner is much less capable than yours. You'd be surprised at what's out there.

Ha! I'm currently training someone who can't do a single squat without any weight. But shes making tons of progress, only with free weights.

 

[Mike_grpA]

I agree that free weights are the way to go. Beginners should just focus on learning proper form with light weights. The problem is too many of them want to look tough so they go for a weight they can't properly handle. Using machines is fine for a couple of exercises to isolate a specific muscle, but only once you've done all of your compound exercises and free weight lifts.

 

[Omnis]

Bodyweight exercise is often too much for beginners. Free weights don't make sense when they can't even move. Machines offer a way to safely go through a range of motion, especially at lighter-than-body weights.

I used machines to train large muscle groups while establishing proper free-weight movement patterns. That is exactly what I think beginners should do.

 

[Mike_grpA]

Machines aid the movement too much to aid in developing good form. The free weights at my gym start at 1kg, I can't imagine someone who can't lift 1kg.

I also disagree that bodyweight exercises are too much for a beginner. Bodyweight exercises are exactly what a beginner should do. Machines isolate muscles and create strength imbalances. They're fine for building a bit of bulk and looking strong, but you'll find people who focus on machines tend to not be able to do simple bodyweight exercises.

The best exercises for building strength are pull ups/chin ups, dips, push ups, free weight bench presses, squats, and dead lifts. Beginners should focus on those to build a good base to work from. Those exercises, coupled with a few free weight exercises, will build whole body strength.

 

[Omnis]

People focus on machines because they can't do simple bodyweight exercises.

Have you ever been above 300 pounds? OK then.

Also, it's much safer to do a chest press on a properly-designed machine and to do all pulling motions on machines. We're not talking about skynet here.

You guys are way overstating muscular imbalances and stabilizers, etc. The body defers load to the larger muscle groups. For a beginner with absolutely no training experience, they're going to need to strengthen those large groups before getting all athletic au-iron-gratis.

 

[Mike_grpA]

If you're above 300lbs you should focus on losing fat.

Free weights can be as light as you want, and recruit more muscles to balance. Any PT will tell you the same.

Machines can be good for advanced lifters, as I said, to isolate a muscle. An example would be once I've done weighted pull ups and dumbell rear delt flys, I'll do pull downs and kayak rows on the machines to really finish off my back.

 

[Omnis]

Go google image search a pushup. Can't screw that up, right?

More than half of the pictures are incorrect. All of the women pictured are doing it wrong.

(Exhibit A)

Some machine totally suck and I wouldn't recommend them. But it's much harder to screw up on a machine. It's almost impossible to do it wrong if you follow the pictures. Still, where there's a will, there's a way...

RIP knees.

Knee hardly knew ye.

 

[phillgt2002]

Go google image search a pushup. Can't screw that up, right?

More than half of the pictures are incorrect. All of the women pictured are doing it wrong.

(Exhibit A)

Honestly, I'm not even focusing on the push-up.. I'm paying attention to... how I can't see her legs.

 

[Omnis]

I'm sure the medicine balls are softer.

 

[Mike_grpA]

Learning good form is the first thing you should do before even stepping foot in the gym. If you can't execute a push up you shouldn't be going into the weight room. You don't get strong by isolating muscles, you increase your chances of injuring yourself. Compound exercises first. If your body weight is too high to do pull ups and push ups, focus on cardio and losing the fat. Fat dudes with big arms don't look fit, they look like a heart attack waiting to happen.

If I was obese I would be just doing flat out cardio. It's far more important to me to be fit than to look tough. Fortunately I was always the really skinny guy in school, so I've started at the opposite end of the spectrum. But I'm now close to 100kgs and I can do all kinds of bodyweight exercises at that weight.

I know people at 80kg that can't do a single pull up, despite working out every day, because all they do is machine work, presses, and curls. They look big, and have big arms and chest, but lack the core strength because they've avoided exercises like pull ups that work so many different muscles at once. It's fine if their goal is to look tough, but not if they want any usable strength. Useless for sport.

 

[Johnnypenso]

If someone is way out of shape they shouldn't be doing push ups to begin with or any body weight exercises that are even moderately taxing. I'm also a big fan of free weights but whether one uses machine or free weights, no one should start using even moderately taxing weights without some supervision by an experienced trainer. You can get overconfident and hurt on a machine just like you can with free weights. Like a lot of people, when I first joined the gym many years ago, I was steered to the machines as it was all the rage back then, and then free weight area was quite small. I tried the machines for months but didn't make a lot of muscle/strength gains or fat loss. I did some research and decided on strength training with free weights, using the 5x5 Stronglifts program for inspiration.

The difference was night and day. Immediately, even though I was using much lighter weights at first, the workouts were were much more taxing. Once I worked my way up to my limits, the gains came much quicker in strength, definition and fat loss and the workouts were much more intense for the same amount of time spent.

I would highly recommend free weights to everyone that is thinking about getting into working out, male or female, just start with a trainer if you can afford it, or do a ton of research on proper technique and watch yourself in the mirror. Those mirrors surrounding the free weight section of the gym aren't to admire your stunning body, it's to check your form! Start slow, with much less weight than you can handle, and focus on form at first, and gradually increase the weights by 5 pounds a week until you approach your maximum weights for a particular routine.

 

[phillgt2002]

Eh, sticking to strictly cardio when you're obese isn't going to do much. For my height, I'm considered obese. If I want to keep my weight off, I have to start lifting and do cardio.