Geneva VGT???

[Imari]

Jordan gives us some interesting and exciting news form reliable sources. For some reason, unknown to Jordan and us, things happen to change.

What is the response that many give him for his efforts??? Whining, Crying, Negativity, Disrespect.

I'm not sure I've seen anyone being disrespectful to Jordan. On the contrary, I've seen a number of people sympathise with him about how it's sad that he tried to help out the fans and was thrown under the bus.

Does anyone other than me see why PD may possibly choose to not interact with the GT Community as much as we would all like. This community has many great and helpful people, and an even greater number of ungrateful, overly entitled users that seem to feel that they are owed the world.

I paid money for a game that is not yet complete. That is not overly entitled, that's exactly as entitled as I should be. I am owed the features that were advertised. I do not expect them all straight away, that would be unreasonable. I do expect at least some, and if that's not possible I expect some communication.

They still have 27 VGT cars to go, for instance. At a rate of one every three months, we'll be here until 2021. That is not acceptable.

While I have not had nearly as much face-to-face time with Kaz and the PD Staff as Jordan has, I have spent a few days interacting with PD's Modeling Staff, SCEA's crew, and one superb evening in the VIP Lounge of the GT Awards with Kaz, And Staff. These are real people who are as enamored with Gran Turismo as any of the " Fans" are. They seem to respect the Fans more than many of the fans respect them. I think that it is hiogh time that some of the fans start to show some class and respect.

Geez........

While there are some here flinging rotten vegetables in PDs direction, I think on the whole the reception has been remarkably positive considering what the game is right now. It's an improved GT5 with some big bits removed from it, on the promise that they'll return later on.

We're three months in with none of the major features added or even alluded to, no monthly track or car DLC, and some showstopper bugs still floating around (eg. pitstop bug). We have one VGT and some advertising driven models of new cars. Which are nice, I'll grant you, but it's highly likely that PD was paid to include those.

I think PD has one of the most dedicated and tolerant fan bases anywhere, and that those people are starting to become restless is a bad sign. PD has not earned themselves any respect with GT6. It is an incomplete game. I think they'll start being shown respect the moment they start making GT6 the game they said it would be, and not a moment sooner. That is reasonable, and they shouldn't expect otherwise.

Sweet words butter no parsnips, the community wants to see results.

 

[SWERV_GRIFFIN]

So your HIGHLY TRUSTED SOURCES are full of crap. Noted.

I won't spend much of my time quoting, nor anyone else's time reading. Here is one "shining example".

I'm not sure I've seen anyone being disrespectful to Jordan. On the contrary, I've seen a number of people sympathise with him about how it's sad that he tried to help out the fans and was thrown under the bus.



I paid money for a game that is not yet complete. That is not overly entitled, that's exactly as entitled as I should be. I am owed the features that were advertised. I do not expect them all straight away, that would be unreasonable. I do expect at least some, and if that's not possible I expect some communication.

They still have 27 VGT cars to go, for instance. At a rate of one every three months, we'll be here until 2021. That is not acceptable.



While there are some here flinging rotten vegetables in PDs direction, I think on the whole the reception has been remarkably positive considering what the game is right now. It's an improved GT5 with some big bits removed from it, on the promise that they'll return later on.

We're three months in with none of the major features added or even alluded to, no monthly track or car DLC, and some showstopper bugs still floating around (eg. pitstop bug). We have one VGT and some advertising driven models of new cars. Which are nice, I'll grant you, but it's highly likely that PD was paid to include those.

I think PD has one of the most dedicated and tolerant fan bases anywhere, and that those people are starting to become restless is a bad sign. PD has not earned themselves any respect with GT6. It is an incomplete game. I think they'll start being shown respect the moment they start making GT6 the game they said it would be, and not a moment sooner. That is reasonable, and they shouldn't expect otherwise.

Sweet words butter no parsnips, the community wants to see results.

Just because "some People" seem to be sipping " AK-RITE" , doesn't mean the vast majority of you lot are.
Most of the posts I read are IN MY OPINION overly critical and demanding. They are also in my opinion, childish, negative, demanding, and defeatist. I have seen all this same negativity for many,. many years. Still Gran Turismo and PD still sell millions of copies of their game, regardless of all the negative crap spewed forth by may fans who call themselves loyal.

I say, be patient, and wait. We may see this game reach the height that you all DEMAND it to. We may not. I seriously doubt that your "demands" are going to be the main reason that PD finally finish the game to everyone's satisfaction, but we'll never really know.

I'd just like to see some of you quit acting like some petulant children. You paid what, a whole $60 for this game??? Good lord, if Sony had their way, it would have been a grand........ :/

 

[Quakebass]

Most of the posts I read are IN MY OPINION overly critical and demanding.

So how you take someone's statement overrides what they actually meant in saying it…?

 

[Imari]

I'd just like to see some of you quit acting like some petulant children. You paid what, a whole $60 for this game??? Good lord, if Sony had their way, it would have been a grand........ :/

You know how everyone doesn't live in the same country as you, or has the same income?

I dare say to a lot of people $60 is a non-trivial amount of money. And it was more like $100 in Australia at release.

There's nothing wrong with expecting value for money, particularly if you've worked hard for that money. I think people are entitled to express their displeasure.


If I may ask a simple question: In your opinion, at what point is it acceptable to complain about the game?

I think it's obvious that for a lot of people that point was reached when they missed the February update, but I'm interested and where you think it is.

 

[eran0004]

If I may ask a simple question: In your opinion, at what point is it acceptable to complain about the game?

I think it's obvious that for a lot of people that point was reached when they missed the February update, but I'm interested and where you think it is.

I think it's fine to complain at any point. But there are reasonable complaints and unreasonable complaints.

For example:

Reasonable complaint: The updates are long overdue, I'm tired of waiting, this is bad.

Unreasonable complaint: Kaz is a liar and a thief.

 

[machschnel]

They still have 27 VGT cars to go, for instance. At a rate of one every three months, we'll be here until 2021. That is not acceptable.

God damn that's a lot of cars. Good luck with that Polyphony.

 

[clemenskaa]

They still have 27 VGT cars to go, for instance. At a rate of one every three months, we'll be here until 2021. That is not acceptable.

I think it is unlikely that there is a release schedule for the VGTs. PD came up with the idea and some manufactures participated. Maybe some started to work on the cars nearly simultanously, maybe some do not even work now and maybe some of them will finish their cars simultanously. I would not expect a continious flow of finished cars (for example monthly) by the different manufactures. They will be finished, when they are finished.

 

[Imari]

I think it is unlikely that there is a release schedule for the VGTs. PD came up with the idea and some manufactures participated. Maybe some started to work on the cars nearly simultanously, maybe some do not even work now and maybe some of them will finish their cars simultanously. I would not expect a continious flow of finished cars (for example monthly) by the different manufactures. They will be finished, when they are finished.

True. Although PD has said (or Sony has said, depending on where you think the information on the official website comes from) that they'll be released over the first year.

So they've got to average about three a month from now until December. Frankly, I suspect we'll get to November 30 and have about 20 to go.

With the work rate demonstrated from years of GT5 and GT6 development, I can't see how they can possibly make 27 VGTs and DLC cars and DLC tracks. And presumably work on GT7. Something has to give.

It seems like one of those things that seemed like a good idea at the time, but I'm not sure someone really sat down and did the numbers to make sure there was enough manpower to get the job done.

 

[///M3]

The cars and the tracks are free wins for the dev team as presumably they will feature in GT7......

 

[jimipitbull]

With the work rate demonstrated from years of GT5 and GT6 development, I can't see how they can possibly make 27 VGTs and DLC cars and DLC tracks. And presumably work on GT7. Something has to give.

.

Even the post you quoted stated this, but I'll try to break it down, then expand it into point form.

- The car manufacturers design their own VGT.
- PD are not a car manufacturer
- 27 different car manufacturers are involved
- 1 car (minimum) per manufacturer
- 27 (minimum) VGTs.

Keeping these points in mind, how does PD's demonstrated work rate have any relevance towards individual car manufacturers designing and/or developing their own VGT?

 

[talkin_2_me]

Keeping these points in mind, how does PD's demonstrated work rate have any relevance towards individual car manufacturers designing and/or developing their own VGT?

PD still have to develope a premium model for each VGT car to be implemented in the game, no?
Based on the amount of non-premium cars in the game at the moment, I assume developing a premium model is rather time consuming.

 

[jimipitbull]

PD still have to develope a premium model for each VGT car to be implemented in the game, no?
Based on the amount of non-premium cars in the game at the moment, I assume developing a premium model is rather time consuming.

Premium cars have cockpits, Merc VGT does not.

I assume the data supplied to PD just needs to be converted to whatever format is used in game. They don't need to design or measure anything, or take photos etc

 

[Squach240]

PD still have to develope a premium model for each VGT car to be implemented in the game, no?
Based on the amount of non-premium cars in the game at the moment, I assume developing a premium model is rather time consuming.

Honestly, after some thought, who said or labeled the VGT's as "Premium" cars? They're purely exterior design practices.

 

[Imari]

Even the post you quoted stated this, but I'll try to break it down, then expand it into point form.

- The car manufacturers design their own VGT.
- PD are not a car manufacturer
- 27 different car manufacturers are involved
- 1 car (minimum) per manufacturer
- 27 (minimum) VGTs.

Keeping these points in mind, how does PD's demonstrated work rate have any relevance towards individual car manufacturers designing and/or developing their own VGT?

I didn't say it impacted the designers at the car companies designing the VGT. I said it impacts all the other things that the people at PD who will be working on the VGTs might be doing.

Because even assuming that they have all the information and everything else from the manufacturers that they needed right now, and that's a best case scenario, I doubt their ability to put out 27 VGTs in 9 months and maintain everything else.

Their work rate is relevant because even if there were no other obstacles at all, I don't think they could do it.

And as you've pointed out, there ARE other obstacles. Presumably all the cars aren't fully designed yet or we would have had some in January and February. Presumably some manufacturers will be easier to work with than others. Presumably something will go horribly wrong with at least one of the models, because that's how the universe works.

Maybe the rate at which PD can model is not the limiting factor in producing VGTs, but having an idea of their work rate gives you an idea of how large a proportion of time the VGTs are taking up.


Basically, work rate is relevant because PD have a lot of stuff to do. With premium cars especially, we've got a pretty good handle on how fast they make them after 8 years of GT5 and GT6 development. Somewhere around 50-60 a year, in terms of fully unique models, not simple tweaks of an existing model. VGTs are then roughly half their quota for the year.

That has an impact on new cars being made for GT7, which they will likely be working on (current date late this year or early next year, remember). They also likely have car DLC intended for GT6, and we know they have track DLC planned. It will have an impact on car DLC, and may have an impact on track DLC also.

I'm fairly comfortable in assuming that at least some of the people involved in track and car modelling can work on either as needed, but it is an assumption and I don't insist that the car modelling necessarily impact the track modelling.


The assumption has to be made that the car manufacturers deliver their design to PD sometime in the next 7 months or so. If they don't, it's not PD's fault and there's probably bugger all that PD can do. But once they do get the design, PD needs to be looking at how fast can they really pump out VGTs, and can they sacrifice the resources necessary to put them out at the rate they've suggested that they would.

 

[Griffith500]

Just a note: PD's modeling team has consistently grown since GT5 launched, and there is considerable delay initially (before GT5 for whatever reason, as evidenced by the jump in car count in GT5.P through updates and from there to GT5 proper) before it seems they even started work on Premiums - remember GT HD as it was originally conceived and the GT HD demo that was released with sub-premium cars.

There's also the small matter of race mods and visual customisation, which I don't think have disappeared, merely morphed into something different that we're yet to see, plus all the touched up standards. That's possibly a modeling / texturing / rigging burden that is not yet evidenced to us directly.

As has been mentioned before, it is very difficult to externally quantify PD's work rate when we're not privy to all of the products of that work (they have almost certainly been simultaneously targeting PS4 for the last year at least, like they did with GT3, for example).


As for the communication issue, I'm reminded of the German phrase Teufelskreis - "Devil's circle" - whereby, in communication terms, consistent and cyclic misunderstanding of intentions / meaning because of different viewpoints (personal) and interpretations of connotations and tone and body language and silence and so on, leads to a feed-back loop of "escalation". It was coined by Watzlawick. Certainly a potential demotivator to participation.

There's also another interesting concept, relevant here: "the spiral of silence", where minorities don't feel their voice will be heard, so keep quiet, further diminishing their impact on the collective vox populi, which feeds back as a further reduction in motivation to speak up. I certainly feel that way about some of the "popular" opinions regarding what GT and PD should be doing. Majority rule is not cool.

 

[Imari]

As has been mentioned before, it is very difficult to externally quantify PD's work rate when we're not privy to all of the products of that work (they have almost certainly been simultaneously targeting PS4 for the last year at least, like they did with GT3, for example).

Given that we're only really interested in the work we get to see, it's not that hard to quantify.

Between the release of GT5 and GT6 they produced ~200 premiums. Some of those were minor tweaks of existing models, such as the base models and the multiple Huayras. 50 to 60 a year sounds about right to me.

Whatever work they've been doing for GT7/PS4 is not relevant to producing VGTs for PS3, except to notice that it's potentially even more man-hours drained away from supporting the current product.

 

[danielc]

And to pile up, i dont think the manufacturers are going to want their vgt release in the middle of multiple vgt pack, they will want it to be (because they are) special and one by one...

 

[Griffith500]

Given that we're only really interested in the work we get to see, it's not that hard to quantify.

Yes, it is, because nobody's interested in an absolute (literal) "quantification". It's always relative to something else. The moment attention shifts to absolutes, there is always someone who states "but other games". What is actually happening, then, is qualification, not quantification. And it's really not that hard to qualify from one's own preconceptions, no.

We need all of the data, but we don't have the half of it.

Between the release of GT5 and GT6 they produced ~200 premiums. Some of those were minor tweaks of existing models, such as the base models and the multiple Huayras. 50 to 60 a year sounds about right to me.

You're not even using all the data available to you.

Between GT5 Prologue and GT5, there was an increase from 37 to 200 over three years. And taking the timeline from GT4 to the release of GT5, it's still 40 per year on average (closer to 50 given the delay I mentioned, plus artists working on other projects), with a team smaller than it currently is.

The fact that PD are making the same number of cars with more people just does not tally, so we are missing something very big in our estimation of their work (via the products of that work; "absence of evidence" and all that.) Arguments from ignorance are fallacious.

Whatever work they've been doing for GT7/PS4 is not relevant to producing VGTs for PS3, except to notice that it's potentially even more man-hours drained away from supporting the current product.

You don't know that. "Whatever work", indeed. It's wholly possible they have been producing assets for systems that are destined for PS4 / GT7, and there are also assets that were produced for previous games and even promotional material that haven't been seen since. I find it unlikely that these have been disposed of entirely.

EDIT: messed up the numbers by a factor of two, but the point stands.

 

[mcalva98]

Ok guys so I contacted Nissan and asked about their vision GT. But sadly this is what they said

- No information has been released on that at this time. Stay tuned! Thanks – Sarah, Nissan Community Manager

 

[///M3]

Let's have a quick reality check.

PD will release cars, maps at their own schedule.

VGT cars are just concept cars that each manufacturer makes as part and parcel of making cars.

PD premium assets are built for gt7 too.

So, the only choice we have is to wait until things come to us. Or fight about semantics and workflows none of us have a clue about.

 

[Griffith500]

Right, so I thought I should substantiate / quantify my claims about the numbers of modelers, and have taken note of the modeling staff from GT5 Prologue, GT5 and GT6.

GT5 Prologue

Car Modeling Director - 4

Tadashi Terashima
Keiichi Ashizawa
Mutsumi Sakakibara
Takayashi Kawakami


Car Modeling - 31

Tadashi Watanabe
Yuichiro Kohno
Kento Minemura
Satoru Miyamoto
Yuji Kawamura
Emi Imazeki
Tsutomu Sonehara
Mihiko Suzuki
Yoko Onagi
Toshiyuki Maenou
Takashi Watanabe
Masao Kikuichi
Kohei Kasai
Yuko Ikeda
Youjiro Ishihara
Akira Nogami
Masayoshi Kawashima
Miharu Imazeki
Kensei Kitai
Junya Tsubaki
Yuki Mineo
Mariko Yogo
Mariko Tsutsumi
Eriko Takura
Satoshi Kawamata
Kei Ichimura
Minori Miura
Norihiro Sueyoshi
Yasanari Hagiwara
Mazina Fukushi
Ryo Nishikawa


Landscape Design Director - 3

Hiroshi Samatsu
Junichiro Kurata
Shinobu Sawamura


Landscape Design - 23

Masaaki Goto
Yuichi Matsumoto
Tomi Kambe
Koji Miyata
Takeshi Ikegami
Satoru Takasugi
Nodoka Kinsho
Madhab Ghose
Akiko Tamazaki
Akira Saito
Kaori Takahashi
nobuo Minegishi
Yukari Sekizawa
Koichiro Maeda
Yoshiomi Kure
Morimichi Kyan
Tomonari Kai
Takaya Naito
Kenichiro Yasutomi
Satoshi Hitomi
Junko Mizuno
Michiko Inoue
Yu Inaba



GT5

Car Modeling Director - 5

Mutsumi Sakakibara
Keiichi Ashizawa
Takayoshi Kawakumi
Kento Minemura
Tadashi Terashima


Car Modeling - 38

Tadashi Watanabe
Yuichiro Kono
Satoru Miyamoto
Yuji Kawamura
Tsutomu Sonehara
Mihoko Suzuki
Yoko Onagi
Toshiyuki Maeno
Takashi Watanabe
Masao Kikuichi
Kohei Kasai
Yuko Ikeda
Yojiro Ishihara
Akira Nogami
Masayoshi Kawashima
Miharu Imazeki
Kensei Kitai
Junya Tsubaki
Yuki Mineo
Kei Ichimura
Takashi Hiratsuka
Marina Fukushi
Gou Morimoto
Keisuke Isomura
Asuka Nihei
Yukino Ito
Sumika Sakai
Taiichiro Yoshida
Nobuaki Momose
Takaaki Kumagai
Kayoko Nobori
Shogo Takemoto
Chinatsu Shimodaira
Kumiko Niidome
Tetsushi Adachi
Mayu Koike
Midori Ikeda
Yusuke Suga


Landscape Design Director - 3

Hiroshi Samatsu
Junichiro Kurata
Shinobu Sawamura


Landscape Design - 27

Masaaki Goto
Yuichi Matsumoto
Sanae Ebihara
Tomi Kambe
Koji Miyata
Takeshi Ikegami
Satoru Takasugi
Nodoka Kinsho
Madhab Ghose
Akiko Yamazaki
Akira Saito
Kaori Takahashi
Nobuo Minegishi
Yukari Sekizawa
Koichiro Maeda
Morimichi Kyan
Tomonari Kai
Takaya Naito
Kenichiro Yasumtomi
Satoshi Hitomi
Yu Inaba
Michiko Kawamata
Junko Mizuno
Hitomi Hatasawa
Kotaru Tamura
Mizuki Kitajima
Shota Inui



GT6

Car Modeling Director - 7

Keiichi Ashizawa
Mutsumi Sakakibara
Yuichiro Kono
Takayoshi Kawakami
Kento Minemura
Satoru Miyamoto
Tsutomo Sonehara


Car Modeling Chief - 12

Yuji Kawamura
Yoko Onagi
Toshiyuki Maeno
Masao Kikuichi
Kouhei Kasai
Yojiro Ishihara
Masayoshi Kawashima
Miharu Imazeki
Junya Tsubaki
Yuki Mineo
Kei Ichimura
Takashi Hiratsuka


Car Modeling - 18

Tadashi Watanabe
Mihoko Suzuki
Takashi Watanabe
Yuko Ikeda
Akira Nogami
Kensei Kitai
Marina Ishioka
Norihiro Sueyoshi
Go Morimoto
Keisuke Isomura
Asuka Nihei
Yukino Ito
Nobuaki Momose
Takaaki Kumagai
Shogo Takemoto
Kumiko Niidome
Tetsushi Adachi
Mayu Koike


Car Modeling Assistant - 19

Taiichirou Yoshida
Kayaoko Nobori
Wataru Iizuka
Shota Hatano
Naoko Hayashi
Mai Shikama
Azumi Matsumura
Masai Hieno
Yasuo Okuda
Yuko Nakanishi
Sanami Shimada
Izumi Igarashi
Chise Shimomura
Riku Marumo
Miki Kobayashi
Taiji Shimizu
Fumiya Noguchi
Minori Miura
Osamu Sekiya


Car Modeling Technical Support - 1

Yasunari Hagiwara


Landscape Design Director - 5

Satoru Takasugi
Akira Saito
Tomonari Kai
Takaya Naito
Kenichiro Yasutomi


Landscape Design - 30

Tomi Kambe
Sanae Ebihara
Yuichi Matsumoto
Hiroshi Samatsu
Koji Miyata
Shinobu Sawamura
Takeshi Ikegami
Nodoka Kinsho
Junichiro Kurata
Madhab Ghose
Akiko Yamazaki
Kaori Takahashi
Nobuo Minegishi
Koichiro Maeda
Morimichi Kyan
Satoshi Hitomi
Hitomi Hatasawa
Kotaru Tamura
Mizuki Kitajima
Shota Inui
Tatsuhide Tanaka
Umito Koga
Yuka Yoshida
Hiroyuki Yamamoto
Koki Ishibashi
Hirokazu Ichii
Momoko Furugori
Ayako Okada
Reiko Shimada
Moe Aoki

In summary:

GT5 Prologue had:

4 car modeling directors
31 car modelers
3 landscape design directors
23 landscape designers

35 car staff, 26 landscape staff.
61 total.

GT5 had:

5 car modeling directors
38 car modelers
3 landscape design directors
27 landscape designers

43 car staff, 30 landscape staff.
71 total.

GT6 had:

7 car modeling directors
12 car modeling chiefs
18 car modelers
19 car modeling assistants
1 car modeling technical support
5 landscape design directors
30 landscape designers

57 car staff, 35 landscape staff.
92 total.

So the total numbers of modelers has steadily increased with each game. What's telling with GT6 is a large upheaval in structure, if only in nomenclature, of splitting the team into chiefs, modelers and assistants - the assistants all new names, and the familiar names from the previous games have been distributed amongst the other two groups. There is a loss of some of the familiar names, which is probably due to the shift of some of the staff (intially 50 in total, described as "engineers", though) to Fukuoka after the earthquake / tsunami. Maybe the re-structuring is necessary given the size of the team and its total work load now.

The addition of a dedicated technical support dude is also interesting - surely their modeling workflow is pretty much nailed down by now, after "eight years"? What do they need "technical support" in at this stage? There is no explicitly named technical support for landscape modeling, but there is a guy who does the "landscape tool" and no sign of anyone doing the course creator - there were three people credited for that in GT5.

Even more telling is the increase in number of directors and modelers for "landscape design", which is probably the result of ideas like the new course creator (Ronda / Andalucía / Zahara etc.), but there is no accompanying restructuring of titles etc., nor loss of familiar faces.

That implies the new focus on massive, open and contiguous landscapes (including with the new "circuits") is less of a change than what's happened with car modeling since GT5. Perhaps the move of the car modeling team was just an opportune time to restructure things, and the landscape team stayed in Tokyo. Or there is a fundamental change to what the car team is actually doing (even if it's just scale), more so than the landscape team.


Some productivity thoughts:

GT5 Prologue was 2 years after GT4, with 37 cars and 31 modelers: 0.60 cars per person per year.
(GT5 was 5 years after GT4, with 200 premiums and 38 modelers: 1.05 cars per person per year.)
GT5 was 3 years after GT5 Prologue with 163 additional premiums and 38 modelers: 1.43 cars per person per year.
GT6 was 3 years after GT5 with an additional 200 Premiums and 49 modelers: 1.36 cars per person per year.

The delay in starting modeling is clearly evident with GT5 Prologue, even after accounting for TT etc. Guess at one extra year's delay and they achieved 1.19 cars per person per year, and GT5 was then 1.32 cars per person per year since GT4.


So really, they are working at the same overall productivity. However, it's nowhere near 6 months (2 per person per year), is it? It's more like 9 months per car, 50% longer than claimed. That still doesn't add up, to me (33% of their work is effectively unaccounted for) - looking at the extreme long term planning they did with sounds, I think there's something we've not seen with car models, too.

 

[nuTTTz]

What do they need "technical support" in at this stage?

They have a server room as big as an apartment, it likely takes more than one person to keep it all running smoothly.

 

[Griffith500]

They have a server room as big as an apartment, it likely takes more than one person to keep it all running smoothly.

That's covered separately in the credits, and the servers you play the game on are not PD's own responsibility (they will virtualised and distributed). They do have their own servers, though, which presumably facilitate the communication of instructions, feedback and productivity itself between the two main sites, as well as for general IT infrastructure purposes, no doubt. But that's also accounted for separately in the credits.

No, the single modeling technical support guy is more likely for custom plugins and such in 3D modeling software, or something similar. But my point was, why so late in the production run? What's changed for all those artists to need technical support, and only for the cars? Unless it's just for all those fresh-faced assistants.

 

[nuTTTz]

That's covered separately in the credits, and the servers you play the game on are not PD's own responsibility (they will virtualised and distributed). They do have their own servers, though, which presumably facilitate the communication of instructions, feedback and productivity itself between the two main sites, as well as for general IT infrastructure purposes, no doubt. But that's also accounted for separately in the credits.

No, the modeling technical support is more likely for custom plugins and such in 3D modeling software, or something similar. But my point was, why so late in the production run? What's changed for all those artists to need technical support, and only for the cars? Unless it's just for all those fresh-faced assistants.

Having some IT experience, my best guess?

As the staff and game have expanded, so have the tools used for creating GT.
Hard to say what kind of transition was required to incorporate 'adaptive tessellation' alone.

When I did the IT thing years ago auto-cad users were under our care, while those folks could work wonders with the software when it worked correctly, as soon as something unexpected or unfamiliar arose they were lost.

I can imagine something similar being required with PD considering just how complex GT has become.

 

[Youngun]

Right, so I thought I should substantiate / quantify my claims about the numbers of modelers, and have taken note of the modeling staff from GT5 Prologue, GT5 and GT6.



In summary:

GT5 Prologue had:

4 car modeling directors
31 car modelers
3 landscape design directors
23 landscape designers

35 car staff, 26 landscape staff.
61 total.

GT5 had:

5 car modeling directors
38 car modelers
3 landscape design directors
27 landscape designers

43 car staff, 30 landscape staff.
71 total.

GT6 had:

7 car modeling directors
12 car modeling chiefs
18 car modelers
19 car modeling assistants
1 car modeling technical support
5 landscape design directors
30 landscape designers

57 car staff, 35 landscape staff.
92 total.

So the total numbers of modelers has steadily increased with each game. What's telling with GT6 is a large upheaval in structure, if only in nomenclature, of splitting the team into chiefs, modelers and assistants - the assistants all new names, and the familiar names from the previous games have been distributed amongst the other two groups. There is a loss of some of the familiar names, which is probably due to the shift of some of the staff (intially 50 in total, described as "engineers", though) to Fukuoka after the earthquake / tsunami. Maybe the re-structuring is necessary given the size of the team and its total work load now.

The addition of a dedicated technical support dude is also interesting - surely their modeling workflow is pretty much nailed down by now, after "eight years"? What do they need "technical support" in at this stage? There is no explicitly named technical support for landscape modeling, but there is a guy who does the "landscape tool" and no sign of anyone doing the course creator - there were three people credited for that in GT5.

Even more telling is the increase in number of directors and modelers for "landscape design", which is probably the result of ideas like the new course creator (Ronda / Andalucía / Zahara etc.), but there is no accompanying restructuring of titles etc., nor loss of familiar faces.

That implies the new focus on massive, open and contiguous landscapes (including with the new "circuits") is less of a change than what's happened with car modeling since GT5. Perhaps the move of the car modeling team was just an opportune time to restructure things, and the landscape team stayed in Tokyo. Or there is a fundamental change to what the car team is actually doing (even if it's just scale), more so than the landscape team.


Some productivity thoughts:

GT5 Prologue was 2 years after GT4, with 37 cars and 31 modelers: 0.60 cars per person per year.
(GT5 was 5 years after GT4, with 200 premiums and 38 modelers: 1.05 cars per person per year.)
GT5 was 3 years after GT5 Prologue with 163 additional premiums and 38 modelers: 1.43 cars per person per year.
GT6 was 3 years after GT5 with an additional 200 Premiums and 49 modelers: 1.36 cars per person per year.

The delay in starting modeling is clearly evident with GT5 Prologue, even after accounting for TT etc. Guess at one extra year's delay and they achieved 1.19 cars per person per year, and GT5 was then 1.32 cars per person per year since GT4.


So really, they are working at the same overall productivity. However, it's nowhere near 6 months (2 per person per year), is it? It's more like 9 months per car, 50% longer than claimed. That still doesn't add up, to me (33% of their work is effectively unaccounted for) - looking at the extreme long term planning they did with sounds, I think there's something we've not seen with car models, too.

Thought it was 6 months of man hours. So 9-12months could be right if you include days off, holidays and SLEEP.
Still, big staff were Turn 10 seem to crank out way more cars per year.

 

[Griffith500]

Having some IT experience, my best guess?

As the staff and game have expanded, so have the tools used for creating GT.
Hard to say what kind of transition was required to incorporate 'adaptive tessellation' alone.

When I did the IT thing years ago auto-cad users were under our care, while those folks could work wonders with the software when it worked correctly, as soon as something unexpected or unfamiliar arose they were lost.

I can imagine something similar being required with PD considering just how complex GT has become.

I understand what IT support is, but that is also accounted for in the credits. Presumably these problems you describe were happening before GT6, but were handled by the existing tech support team. Now there is specific mention of an individual whose sole role is to deal with the technical woes of the car modeling team only.

I personally see that as a reflection of the size of that one task, but there is no evidence in GT6 that the task has grown to that extent. It's the same deal as GT5, outwardly.

The tessellation is handled by the graphics engine programmers (as distinct from the graphics programmers), and any change in the mesh specs to accommodate tessellation would be dictated and overseen by the directors. But the meshes in GT5 were already optimised for tessellation. That's probably because PD were targeting PS4 with them from the start.

Thought it was 6 months of man hours. So 9-12months could be right if you include days off, holidays and SLEEP.
Still, big staff were Turn 10 seem to crank out way more cars per year.

Then it would be over 25 actual months per person per car, excluding holidays (working 40 hours in 168). Even assuming they work crunch hours all the time, it should take 12 months of real time, minimum.

No, I think it's 6 months of real time per person per car, as per the original claim.

EDIT: Even accounting for the possibility that not all of the credited modelers worked for all of the time between releases (new hires during development, for instance), we still get 7.44 real months per car per person with 31 modelers making GT5's 200 premiums, and the extra 200 premiums in GT6 with GT5's 38 modelers took 6.84 months (shorten the development time by half a year, and you get the 6 month figure for GT6 with 38 modelers). That's an overrun of 25% and 14% respectively, and are the absolute minimum values attributable, the real values will be larger.

Realistically, since the staff grew relatively rapidly after GT5 released, and the disaster only really delayed them by a few months maximum, somewhere between a quarter and a third of their modeling effort is not visible to us at this time.

 

[lancia delta hf]

To me, this highlights EXACTLY why PD may not communicate as much with it's user base as "it should".

This is nonsense and just another excuse for PD

Does anyone other than me see why PD may possibly choose to not interact with the GT Community as much as we would all like

Yes, Because they dont value their customers and have no respect for them

They seem to respect the Fans more than many of the fans respect them. I think that it is hiogh time that some of the fans start to show some class and respect.

Lets get something straight, Anyone who hands over money is a customer, This isnt a football club, Its a company selling a product to which i owe nothing if i feel like i've deliberately misslead, And no they dont seam to respect their customers more than their customers respect them, Their loyal customers have blindly believed their hype and handed over their custom despite previous shortcommings and failed promises, Now thats respect, Respect that has not been returned by PD in any way,

And lets just say they got some abuse if they came on here, So damn what? it comes with the territorry that is business, This doesnt mean you neglet the people that keep you in business just because you're scared to face the angry mob which was the cause of bad customer service, Every other forum i belong has reps from their companies to answer questions, Big companies but PD think they are above it and customers arent worthy, This negligence can only keep PD alive for so long, Then there will be no need for anyone to be around to defend them at every corner.

 

[Darragh]

So the mercedes vgt concept was at the geneva motoring show. Because of that, would it not be right to say that BMW would have had theres there too, and they did have a concept car on display. Therefore, I think that's the BMW vgt.

 

[Beat the Beat]

So really, they are working at the same overall productivity. However, it's nowhere near 6 months (2 per person per year), is it? It's more like 9 months per car, 50% longer than claimed. That still doesn't add up, to me (33% of their work is effectively unaccounted for) - looking at the extreme long term planning they did with sounds, I think there's something we've not seen with car models, too.

If, as rumoured, they're planning on releasing GT7 relatively soon, then some of the content is going to have to be held back for that so that it looks like a significant boost on what GT6 has.
But reading above I think this has been pointed out a number of times already.

 

[Griffith500]

If, as rumoured, they're planning on releasing GT7 relatively soon, then some of the content is going to have to be held back for that so that it looks like a significant boost on what GT6 has.
But reading above I think this has been pointed out a number of times already.

That's possible, there would be an extra 210 or so cars by December this year, which includes the 30% (ish) my figures would project is "missing" to-date and the 98 ish they can push out in a year (going by the six-month figure).

But going by that same figure, there should have been 250 (4*31*2) premiums in GT5, an extra 209 (38*2.75*2) for GT6 (459 total) and then another 98 (49*1*2) on top of that for GT7 (557 total). That's still a substantial underestimate (minimum 10%, well over 50 cars), by using the minimum number of modelers at each step.


I don't know that PD have ever held back content like that before, except for when GT5 Prologue (e.g. the cars added in the updates were probably fewer than they had made by that time), and the cars they must have made after release but didn't offer as DLC for GT5. Whilst it might be true that it takes 6 months to model the (base) car, maybe what they do after that takes an extra month or three...