Give us better sounds - PLEASE !!

[RACECAR]

The recent VGT trailers have had some interesting V8 sounds in them.




Obviously, these can't be in-game; superficially, they're too detailed. There's also gobs of intake sound, which is vital for this engine configuration's animalistic impression.

On the other hand, the gear changes are so very GT. The way the engine holds rpm perfectly, no fluttering or faltering, and what sounds like GT's rev-limiter (in a high gear), additionally, absolutely scream in-game. (All of this can be best heard towards the end of the Aston video).

My guess is this is the new sound method. Whether we hear that on PS3 remains to be seen, but signs are good for the future.

Come to think about it, I can hear some of the same characteristics from the Red Bull X cars like I did with the WSR Ralt F3 and Lotus 97T.

 

[Griffith500]

Come to think about it, I can hear some of the same characteristics from the Red Bull X cars like I did with the WSR Ralt F3 and Lotus 97T.

The on / off throttle transition, and off-throttle tone in particular?
Or is it the slight scratchy, crunchiness to the sound?

I'm not sure; I think for me, it's mostly the control, so the gear changes and "rev-limiter" in particular.


Thinking back to the Mercedes video now, I remember hearing what I though was additive synthesis in there, as well as some "vintage" straight-8 sounds.



I think they're all from Mercedes' library of real recordings, though, except the additive stuff, which will probably be from any sound augmentation research they're doing (think BMW). There's obviously some real clips of a V8 starting up and revving, and there's also some random race engine sounds for the race version.

So the sound in the other VGT clips seems somewhat deliberate.

 

[RACECAR]

The on / off throttle transition, and off-throttle tone in particular?
Or is it the slight scratchy, crunchiness to the sound?
.

That right there.

 

[TurismoBad]

The car do sound Gran Turismo-ish to me as well. The way they talked about it implies that we (the players) will "feel it driving DP-100". Could it be...

 

[Griffith500]

That right there.

Good ear!

I didn't really pick up on that at first, as I said, it was the gear changes.

The car do sound Gran Turismo-ish to me as well. The way they talked about it implies that we (the players) will "feel it driving DP-100". Could it be...

The DP-100 has a V12, or at least that's what's visible through the rear cover, so I hope not!

I think Kaz's comments come first on this issue: no major changes before GT7. That doesn't mean they won't continue to tease us until the full revealing.

 

[ScottPuss20]

I'd be jumping for joy if the sounds in the trailer are in the game!!!

 

[HoneyBadger]

I find it sad that some cars in GT3 sound better than they do now.

Quite sad indeed. Take the Sauber C9 for instance, my favorite car in GT4. In GT4 the sound of the car was to die for. In GT5 and GT6 it sounds like a dentist drill. I'm still mystified as to how PD could totally screw up the sound of one of the most beloved cars in the game especially after it sounded so good in the previous version.

 

[RACECAR]

Good ear!

I didn't really pick up on that at first, as I said, it was the gear changes.

I wonder if that is new way of creating that rasp certain cars have. On some cars its good but on every car using this new method you mention, its more pronounced and more easily heard.

 

[TurismoBad]

High-res version. (readable text)

 

[Griffith500]

Quite sad indeed. Take the Sauber C9 for instance, my favorite car in GT4. In GT4 the sound of the car was to die for. In GT5 and GT6 it sounds like a dentist drill. I'm still mystified as to how PD could totally screw up the sound of one of the most beloved cars in the game especially after it sounded so good in the previous version.

It sounded wrong in GT4, also. It's the same sample as the TS020 used. It's another perennial, in that it was applied to many of the racing cars in GT2 (e.g. both Lotus GT1s, just from memory). It's a very annoying loop, which might be why it's not heard so much any more (if at all?).

I wonder if that is new way of creating that rasp certain cars have. On some cars its good but on every car using this new method you mention, its more pronounced and more easily heard.

I think these clips are the first hint of what the Red-Bull- / Senna-style sounds could be if they were toned down a bit to be more "realistic". But they only achieved that by including intake sound, which is unmistakable in those snippets.

The crunchiness seems inherent to the method outright, as it's audible in the intake too. We have to remember that it's mixed in with music, speech and other effects in the video, so there is considerable masking; a full "quality" assessment cannot really be made. It might be that it still sounds dubious in practice.

There is the tiniest possibility that this crunchiness won't be present on PS4 (it implies low bit depths somewhere, potentially), and so that might be what Kaz means by "major". But that's really reaching, I think.

High-res version. (readable text)

Ooh, how did you do that? Reverse image search?

The workspace is "Mastering" something or other (can't read kanji; not that I can "read" kana either).
The file name has a date (1st Feb 2013) then a load of numbers. It's a long file at over 40 seconds, and the non-steady-state recording probably indicates it's not really for generating samples with, only for reference. The histogram probably says something about the adequacy of the recording technique / microphone used.

The highest frequency in the spectrogram is somewhere around 70 Hz; that translates to about 8500 rpm for a four-stroke. Counting the harmonics, we get a strong fourth and an even stronger eighth (plus substantial 16th); there's a lot of energy between the 4th and 8th harmonics at lower rpm. It could be the exhaust sound of something like the HSV-01, or F355 challenge, a GP2 car etc.

 

[TurismoBad]

@Griffith500 It's just the "out of the box" Wordpress setup they used for pit-stop. You can disable access to these folders with free plugins but by default it's open.

http://pitstop.gran-turismo.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/

 

[Blkout]

How does that answer any of my questions?
Or is that your way of saying you have no idea?

Maybe you shouldn't make assertions if you don't actually know.

Is that your way of saying that you're living in denial?

That's my way of saying you're being too optimistic about something you won't ever get.

 

[Griffith500]

Is that your way of saying that you're living in denial?

That's my way of saying you're being too optimistic about something you won't ever get.

Fine, let's go back to last week, then:

Never going to get better sound in GT6, its way too late now to go back and re-record all of those vehicles. Those resources are being used for GT7 I'm sure.

Provide evidence that recording is the issue, else rescind your claim.

 

[Blkout]

Fine, let's go back to last week, then:


Provide evidence that recording is the issue, else rescind your claim.

I don't need evidence of anything other than you won't get better sounds in GT6, no matter how much optimism you have. Any of your silly arguments related to it is just muddying the waters of the fantasy you want to keep alive. Good luck to you but prepare to be very dissapointed in the end.

 

[Griffith500]

I don't need evidence of anything other than you won't get better sounds in GT6, no matter how much optimism you have. Any of your silly arguments related to it is just muddying the waters of the fantasy you want to keep alive. Good luck to you but prepare to be very dissapointed in the end.

You can have your opinion, by all means, but if you want to start making statements like that, do it right, or don't bother.

I am perfectly in control of my expectations, and I think I know more than enough to be able mitigate my disappointment; if that fails, I'm pretty good at living with disappointment anyway, so try not to worry about me. Besides, I've been telling people on these fora for years (since GT5P) to expect better sounds no sooner than the first PS4 GT game. That does not stop me from contemplating the possibility of getting anything sooner, and nor should it.

The way you're lecturing me implies you know something I don't, but you have been entirely unable to demonstrate that. Nor did you engage with my questions, so it seems you have no intention of actually discussing the issue, only to wax sanctimonious behind a thin veil of supposed concern. Or maybe you're just trying to justify your own pessimism to yourself, I don't know.

 

[Blkout]

I don't know anything officially from PD. I do have very strong suspicion that if they were able to have more realistic car sounds in Gran Turismo, they would have done it LONG ago after each release has gotten criticized for poor car sounds. What I can't figure out is if you're blindly trying to be optimistic because you love this series this much or really incapable of using logic to determine that if things could have been improved in a number of areas (not just car sounds) that PD has been criticized for over the years, they would have done it already if they were capable. So that leads me to one of two conclusions, they either lack the resources (ie. proper car recordings) or they simply don't care what their customers want. Both are unnaceptable. Either way, I've long come to this conclusion that PD is so far behind now in the sim racing market that they don't have the ability to catch up with their current resources which may be funds, manpower, or talent. No one can deny how powerful the Gran Turismo series was for years(GT1 - GT3) and what influence it had on sim racing games, and yet they found a way to let it all slip away(GT4 - GT6) and a number of other sim racers take away their market domination.

I certainly still have hope for GT7 but only because I'm a racing sim fan and I like variety but the realistic side of me says it will be a slight improvement in all areas, but will still be lacking in many familiar areas and the competition will still be ahead again. You can however stick a fork in GT6, because its done.

 

[Griffith500]

I don't know anything officially from PD. I do have very strong suspicion that if they were able to have more realistic car sounds in Gran Turismo, they would have done it LONG ago after each release has gotten criticized for poor car sounds. What I can't figure out is if you're blindly trying to be optimistic because you love this series this much or really incapable of using logic to determine that if things could have been improved in a number of areas (not just car sounds) that PD has been criticized for over the years, they would have done it already if they were capable. So that leads me to one of two conclusions, they either lack the resources (ie. proper car recordings) or they simply don't care what their customers want. Both are unnaceptable. Either way, I've long come to this conclusion that PD is so far behind now in the sim racing market that they don't have the ability to catch up with their current resources which may be funds, manpower, or talent. No one can deny how powerful the Gran Turismo series was for years(GT1 - GT3) and what influence it had on sim racing games, and yet they found a way to let it all slip away(GT4 - GT6) and a number of other sim racers take away their market domination.

I certainly still have hope for GT7 but only because I'm a racing sim fan and I like variety but the realistic side of me says it will be a slight improvement in all areas, but will still be lacking in many familiar areas and the competition will still be ahead again. You can however stick a fork in GT6, because its done.

So: argument from ignorance, basically.

After GT5P, I made the prediction that in order to improve the sounds substantially on PS3, they'd need extra sources. In order to do that without increasing RAM usage significantly, and ballooning the concurrent source count even further over the hardware limit of 64 (four tyres, engine and exhaust per car currently; needs intake additionally at least), they'd have to abandon samplers in favour of something that exchanges the convenience of RAM (samples) with processing power (DSP).

Lo and behold, along come the Red Bull cars, then the Senna ones, and what do I hear (recognised from first hand experience)? DSP.

 

[Blkout]

So: argument from ignorance, basically.

After GT5P, I made the prediction that in order to improve the sounds substantially on PS3, they'd need extra sources. In order to do that without increasing RAM usage significantly, and ballooning the concurrent source count even further over the hardware limit of 64 (four tyres, engine and exhaust per car currently; needs intake additionally at least), they'd have to abandon samplers in favour of something that exchanges the convenience of RAM (samples) with processing power (DSP).

Lo and behold, along come the Red Bull cars, then the Senna ones, and what do I hear (recognised from first hand experience)? DSP.

Your blind fanaticism and ignorance is hilarious.

Do you work for PD? If you don't, you can throw out your entire argument out since you basically said my argument was from ignorance because I have nothing officially from PD. Show me that you work for PD and I'll let you slide on this stupid fantasy of yours. If not, crawl back into your bed, go back to sleep and keep dreaming of the GT6 game you want it to be.

Your predictions, your silly hypothesis, your analyzing of sounds mean absolutely nothing since the sounds coming out everyone's speakers are still the same as they were years ago, rinse and repeat...the Gran Turismo formula.

 

[Griffith500]

Your blind fanaticism and ignorance is hilarious.

Do you work for PD? If you don't, you can throw out your entire argument out since you basically said my argument was from ignorance because I have nothing officially from PD. Show me that you work for PD and I'll let you slide on this stupid fantasy of yours. If not, crawl back into your bed, go back to sleep and keep dreaming of the GT6 game you want it to be.

Your predictions, your silly hypothesis, your analyzing of sounds mean absolutely nothing since the sounds coming out everyone's speakers are still the same as they were years ago, rinse and repeat...the Gran Turismo formula.

As comforting as it must clearly be, why not take a break from constructing this artificial reality of yours for one second, and come back to the facts?


The sounds coming from the Red Bull and Senna cars are like nothing that has come from practically any game, ever, in terms of the technical underpinnings. Don't take my word for it; why not research it a bit? It'll do you good.

If you can't manage that, let's stick to the superficial impression. They're like nothing in any other GT game, simply owing to the fact that they have a different on- and off-throttle tone. That surely must be apparent to you.

 

[RACECAR]

 

[Blkout]

As comforting as it must clearly be, why not take a break from constructing this artificial reality of yours for one second, and come back to the facts?


The sounds coming from the Red Bull and Senna cars are like nothing that has come from practically any game, ever, in terms of the technical underpinnings. Don't take my word for it; why not research it a bit? It'll do you good.

If you can't manage that, let's stick to the superficial impression. They're like nothing in any other GT game, simply owing to the fact that they have a different on- and off-throttle tone. That surely must be apparent to you.

Keep hope alive for GT7.

 

[Zelalem]

The sounds coming from the Red Bull and Senna cars are like nothing that has come from practically any game, ever, in terms of the technical underpinnings. Don't take my word for it; why not research it a bit? It'll do you good.

You made the claim, this means you have to proof it. Simple as that.

 

[OdeFinn]

 

[sems4arsenal]

Are you Spyker88?

 

[Johnnypenso]

You made the claim, this means you have to proof it. Simple as that.

He already has, many times over. You'll have to read through the entire thread to find it because it's spread out. Too big to fit into one post.

 

[RACECAR]

Are you Spyker88?

Yep, that's me.

 

[Griffith500]

Keep hope alive for GT7.

We were talking about GT6. But yet again you dodge any reasonable interactivity in favour of an anti-social response.

You made the claim, this means you have to proof it. Simple as that.

I wouldn't say I've quite proven it, because some of the key points are recognisable only by listening (which is likely to be hit and miss for some), but I think it's highly plausible at least.

I'm going to ask you the questions, because there is an awful lot of past, inter-connected reasoning and observation (and experimentation) behind my supposition, and it's far too easy to post a ridiculously long and rambling post that would probably only confuse / irritate anyone who isn't familiar with my peculiar vocabulary and writing "style". I've certainly done that often enough in the past. I don't know that reading the whole thread is workable, either.

So, let's start with that on- and off-throttle tone difference. Why are the Red Bull and Senna cars the only cars in the game with that difference? Additionally, do you consider it a coincidence that they are also the only cars that sound substantially (completely in some cases) different in the data-logger, including losing that on- / off-throttle expression?

 

[sems4arsenal]

Yep, that's me.

Love your videos, one of my favorite channels, not just your sound ones everything you do especially the tributes.

 

[Blkout]

We were talking about GT6. But yet again you dodge any reasonable interactivity in favour of an anti-social response.

There's nothing to talk about GT6. You fail to see that. I said keep hope alive that GT7 will have better car sounds. You seem to be of some ridiculous belief that the PS3 hardware limitations are making the cars sound like vacuum cleaners so there can be no solution except wait until GT7. I find it hilarious you don't notice that PD has recycled a handful of car sounds that they use on every vehicle in the game.

Your only argument seems to be that the Red Bull and Senna cars have different sounds so that's less than 10 cars total with a different sound than the vacuum cleaners used for every other car, but wait, the PS3 has a hardware limitation so therefore how can those cars sound differently? Oh that's right, you claim some sort of DSP effect so let me get this straight, you think PD is going to go back and edit the car sounds of every car in the game with some DSP effect? So 10 down, 1200 more to go. How long will that take you think?

 

[machschnel]

I wouldn't say I've quite proven it, because some of the key points are recognisable only by listening (which is likely to be hit and miss for some), but I think it's highly plausible at least

This is the part I find most odd about this whole sound debate - we are all clamoring for the best/most accurate sounds, but will we even know when we've got it? Case in point Forza, whose sounds supposedly aren't very accurate, sound good to my plebeian ears.

How many people will actually be able to appreciate these new, super-accurate sounds?