Give us better sounds - PLEASE !!

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Sound is 50% of inmersion, the other 50% is FFB, the physics don't have to be ultra-realistic to make a game feel right or good enough, graphics are the catch for millions of casuals that buy the game but never really get into it. Since casuals are the main target, PD will continue to ignore sound and physics, they'll just focus on making GT a bit prettier with each new installment.

By graphics I mean, the high polygon count premium models and ''new'' lightning engines, game performance and optimization is way more important, I would rather have a loss in the quality of the models than frame-rate issues and aliasing.
 
You're right on the sound being their #2 priority part, but to the rest of your post, just no, there's not a single good/accurate/realistic sound in any of the GT games, GT has never ever had good sound.

That's pushing it a little too far I think.
 
You're right on the sound being their #2 priority part, but to the rest of your post, just no, there's not a single good/accurate/realistic sound in any of the GT games, GT has never ever had good sound.

Forza's sounds may be good but some of them aren't much more accurate or realistic. Considering the bass and distortion have been turned to 11 to make them sound mean like that, I wouldn't say they're much different than GT sounds other than they have substance and life in them.

EDIT: I will admit that some sounds in GT are just plain wrong, but the ones are right would sound nearly identical to Forza if you turned up the distortion and bass.


Sound is 50% of inmersion, the other 50% is FFB, the physics don't have to be ultra-realistic to make a game feel right or good enough, graphics are the catch for millions of casuals that buy the game but never really get into it. Since casuals are the main target, PD will continue to ignore sound and physics, they'll just focus on making GT a bit prettier with each new installment.

By graphics I mean, the high polygon count premium models and ''new'' lightning engines, game performance and optimization is way more important, I would rather have a loss in the quality of the models than frame-rate issues and aliasing.

So if Forza had 2D graphics it would be exactly as immersive to you? Because that's exactly what you said up there. Sound and FFB are by far not the only two immersive things.

Couple this with some of your other statements and I get the feeling that you overlook and assume too much.

Also, how does having graphics as a main priority make you a casual gamer? Absolutely ridiculous.

They're called preferences. Yours are different than other people's, but they're no more "correct" or "right". It's personal taste.
 
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PD really messed up the sound on some cars, e.g., Sauber C9, but on others like the Mine’s BNR34 SKYLINE GT-R or Amuse S2000 GT1 Turbo they nailed it. Its a mixed bag but for the one's they nailed it is sweet :)
 
Seriously it is. So I guess even the Lexus LFA and Lamborghini Gallardo (which both to me sounds very accurate and realistic) are vacuum cleaners too than..... >_>

The LFA is OK, the Gallardo quite good stock - but only in terms of exhaust sound. Both cars have very prominent, and highly distinct (different firing orders) intake sounds that are entirely missing. That means they are a bit too thin and "vacuum cleaner" in cockpit view (not bad in chase view), where the engine sound doesn't have the intake's gargle on the Gallardo or honking, rolling beat on the LFA to counteract its wooshiness, nor to modulate their respective piercing exhaust notes.
 
You're right on the sound being their #2 priority part, but to the rest of your post, just no, there's not a single good/accurate/realistic sound in any of the GT games, GT has never ever had good sound.

Nahbro... What about 787B, Premium Asparadrink RX-7, Ford GT LM/GT Road with Race Exhaust, Nissan Skyline GT-R (any),R89C, R92CP, Diesel Peugeot 908 and Audi R10,...?
I think these are some sounds which are very good...
 
The LFA is OK, the Gallardo quite good stock - but only in terms of exhaust sound. Both cars have very prominent, and highly distinct (different firing orders) intake sounds that are entirely missing. That means they are a bit too thin and "vacuum cleaner" in cockpit view (not bad in chase view), where the engine sound doesn't have the intake's gargle on the Gallardo or honking, rolling beat on the LFA to counteract its wooshiness, nor to modulate their respective piercing exhaust notes.

Ahh okay. So close but not quite it seems. :guilty:
 
What if GT6 has this kind of sound details :

www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdpUWBgP-WY

Will this be good enough ?

Not for me. I bought that game and the sounds were very disappointing, for me. I'm just tired of inappropriate pitch shifting, it sounds awful (alternatives are tricky). And the canned effects are just not good enough in this age of built-in DSP in commercial middleware etc. It's never been so easy to ween yourself off of fixed samples for incidental effects.

But, it did its job. (A showcase of Ferraris past and present).


Adding those extra detail layers would obviously be nice, but it can be done much better than that. Although, saying that, the "gear wobble" (available only in replays) added to GT5 isn't exactly a stellar example of "doing things right".
 
No, sry but No

Not for me. I bought that game and the sounds were very disappointing, for me. I'm just tired of inappropriate pitch shifting, it sounds awful (alternatives are tricky). And the canned effects are just not good enough in this age of built-in DSP in commercial middleware etc. It's never been so easy to ween yourself off of fixed samples for incidental effects.

But, it did its job. (A showcase of Ferraris past and present).


Adding those extra detail layers would obviously be nice, but it can be done much better than that. Although, saying that, the "gear wobble" (available only in replays) added to GT5 isn't exactly a stellar example of "doing things right".



Is it that bad ? :ill: What if it has authentic sample and realistic sound recreation - no dramatic effect like in FM4 + added more intake and exhaust sound details - backfire etc. And most importantly accurate sound field physics inside the cockpit and other cam position, we'll hear it as if we are in the real car, not loud brutal sound effect as if you are in front of engine bay with popped hood and exhaust going out the front bumper :lol:
 
Crowood
Jeah, the GT-R GT3 really sounds good, a bit more crackle while up and downshifting would be nice.
Ok so its not just me :) I LOVE the gt3 sounds.
Let a bandwagoner tell it, and the car sounds horrible beyond repair haha.

At the end of the day its just opinion though 👍
 
Yes, and some good POP during backfires. There are a lot of details that would add to the quality of sound in GT6, and I defer to Griff on just about all of them. He's not just knowledgeable, but has done some work in this area.
 
Yes, and some good POP during backfires. There are a lot of details that would add to the quality of sound in GT6, and I defer to Griff on just about all of them. He's not just knowledgeable, but has done some work in this area.

None of which I have demonstrated (here), nor can I until my computer has been resurrected, to be fair.

A simple pop generator is pretty easy, though, but colouring it to fit the exhaust sound can be tricky. Luckily I generate mine directly, so I just feed the pops etc. through the same "colouring" system as the exhaust itself (it sounds cohesive, if not necessarily realistic; a better "system" would help...). Crackles, fluff and other subtle effects are harder, and probably more important - especially for carburettors, where the various excess fuel sounds are effectively a performance indicator at part throttle.

What might be fun in a GT game is, if they should (for whatever glorious reason) open up ECU tuning to allow us to make our own fuel maps (really just indulgence), we could go all TVR and dump ridiculous amounts of fuel in the exhaust (well, via the cylinders) at all times for maximum silly! :dopey:
 
A simple pop generator is pretty easy, though, but colouring it to fit the exhaust sound can be tricky. Luckily I generate mine directly, so I just feed the pops etc. through the same "colouring" system as the exhaust itself (it sounds cohesive, if not necessarily realistic; a better "system" would help...). Crackles, fluff and other subtle effects are harder, and probably more important - especially for carburettors, where the various excess fuel sounds are effectively a performance indicator at part throttle.
I was going to discuss the difficulty of doing a race car soundset properly so that it sounds authentic, as you have tried several times to do. The above Raceroom video is a great springboard for that.

It does sound really good. But one thing that people don't grasp who have no experience in the area of sound design, are all the little aspects of noise a car makes just in the decelleration stage - and yes it's not a real word, but I want to change English to where it makes more sense. I also use "perplexion" in my writing, and no one was aware that it's not a proper English word yet either. Bloody Oxford braintrusts, meh. But I digress.

Listen closely to that Porsche in that video and focus intently on the sounds it makes solely when it's braking for turns. It makes an astonishing number of distinct sounds. A real sound designer has to mike up a car like that right to start with, and that's a bear in and of itself. I discovered this firsthand when I tried to mike up a drumkit for my Jewish-Christian friend, and what should have been a 30 minute doddle ended up being a few hours of torment and grouching from him. Miking is NOT that easy. It just isn't. ESPECIALLY on a car, and ESPECIALLY when you want to mike it racing around a track like that. It's a recording engineer's worst case scenario.

THEN You have the fact that every decelleration the car goes through sounds different. Every single one. The car creaks, pops and bangs. It backfires. The transmission whines, and it lurches over track undulations. There's wind noise to filter. And every single recording is completely different. All those little noises have to be isolated and filtered out, but saved so that they can be added in, possibly, so they blend in right. But of course with each one, the exhaust note will be different, the tranny whine will be a unique pitch, the wind will be at a different level and timbre... Sometimes it just won't work.

It takes dozens, sometimes hundreds of recordings just to get a pure exhaust "performance." You have to sift through all these recordings and splice together all the two second or less bits to get a pure accelleration/decelleration cycle, and make it sound like it's not spliced together at all. And then pitch-match all those little elements like backfires, pops, bangs, creaks, tranny lurches to match what's going on on-screen. Because if you just use a best sample, it sounds canned and fake because you use the same thing every time and it comes across like a rap song with the same loop every two seconds. And if you use more than one, you have to have an intelligent way to have the game engine pick the right one for what the car is doing.

Get the point yet?

As an audiophile and recording engineer, I can hear where the splices are in the Raceroom beta video, but the quality is so high I don't care. It sounds plenty immersive and authentic. But at the same time, HOW long has it taken game developers to get to this point?

You guys who think this is no big deal have no clue.
 
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You guys who think this is no big deal have no clue.

And you sound engineers don't seem to grasp that fact that games with a sliver of PD's budget do a 100 times better job with sounds than PD does. Yes it's difficult, no I cannot do it, but as other, extremely low budget sims relative to GT5 have shown, it is possible to do and do well, with a tiny fraction of the resources that PD has at it's disposal.

An appropriate analogy would be, some dude building cars in his garage comes along and lays a beating on the Red Bull F1 team in the next F1 race and the race engineers for Red Bull release a statement saying, "You guys who think what this guy did is no big deal have no clue". Sorry man, it doesn't wash. Hire the guy working in his garage for God's sake!!! I don't need to have a clue how something is done, I just need to know it can be done and direct resources towards that goal.
 
And you sound engineers don't seem to grasp that fact that games with a sliver of PD's budget do a 100 times better job with sounds than PD does. Yes it's difficult, no I cannot do it, but as other, extremely low budget sims relative to GT5 have shown, it is possible to do and do well, with a tiny fraction of the resources that PD has at it's disposal.
Yes, and you have fallen into something of a trap. ;) Which I will explain.

Let's say the typical racing sim has 30 unique cars in the stable. And that the sound team has 18 months to get the audio package together for a game's release. This means they have almost three weeks they can devote to each car and get it right.

Let's say that GT5 has 600 unique cars, probably way low, but let's use that. And they worked on the audio for the game for four years, which is probably way long, but let's go with that. This means they have about three days to spend getting the sound right for every car.

Sound like a job you'd want? :D I mean, even given the fact that they use common soundsets for roughly similar cars which get people complaining they aren't right, it's really ludicrous to think you can get the same quality in one-seventh the time. Want to try and get a week's worth of work done in a day? Not me!
 
But they've had the majority of the cars in GT5 to work on since what, 2003? Maybe even 2002? Then as you say, for a large majority of them they don't need to record them all, they can modify the selection they have recorded.

There is no avoiding the fact that no matter what other 'future' evolution of audio PD are working on their work on the 'in the meantime' sounds haven't been good and that was probably a poor choice. If they knew this new system wouldn't be ready for PS3 more effort should have gone into making the sample based sounds better, not just "giving it to the intern" as Griffith suggests they did.
 
Simon, there's still the matter of whacking out all the elements that I mentioned and getting all that work done in the studio. I doubt it takes 30 days to record 30 race cars, because I sincerely doubt it takes 12 hours to record one. And even if it did, and you only had one team with one recording package, that's 30 days of recording max. 17 months of studio time to play with.

I didn't even mention the muffler variations that can quadruple the workload for each car - stock, sport, semi-racing, racing. Or that the new cars in other games like Forza are something like 70 each game with some additional ones available as DLC later, and they do the same sample fudging across multiple similar car types to save workload.

I had to dig up a video from GT2, because I had a hoot, literally, with the Mazda Demio. You'll see. ;)



I have a VHS recording - no VCR unfortunately - of a Demio I race modded in GT2, and it sounded exactly like this. I did a race at Seattle, and when I downshifted and tranny braked for some of the turns, the rev limiter would ping and it would flutter like a hoot owl being choked. It was hilarious! :lol: I shared it with friends and relatives. and while I have a feeling it would make you nauseous, they all had a great laugh over it, went home and did the same thing with theirs.

We obviously have different outlooks on life.
 
I'm not for one second saying sound recording and manipulation for games is easy or fast. All I'm saying is, to rebut your valid point that PC sims have a lot less cars, PD have had 80% of the GT5/GT6 car list in their minds for a decade or more. In that time, with the budgets they've had it large chunk of it should have gone on sound. I take Griffith's word for it that they are working on something new and completely different to simulate the sounds but my point is still the same, if they knew there was a chance that wasn't going to be ready/viable on PS3 they should have had in place another team working on the sample based sounds.

I don't expect them to properly record 700 cars, or however truly unique cars there are in GT5 because they don't need to. I do/did expect them to do the same as Forza, record as many as they could and hire a large number of sound/recording experts to do it. Sure some cars would have reused samples but they already do now, they're just bad samples.
 
One more point, and then I'm done. For a good while, Forza 4 had more than four hundred freaking people working on it around the world! And how many cars and tracks were added? And what were the sounds like? People disagree about everything about Forza. I will give them their due, it's a solid racer. But the sounds just aren't right, unless you insist that in your universe, every "stock" car has a Borla on it.

Polyphony has how many people on staff? Heck, we don't even know for sure. But it sure as skidmarks isn't 400.
 
..and therein lies the problem. GT is the biggest selling PS exclusive franchise, it earns them hundreds of millions of dollars, no matter what the actual number is the employees they do have should be the highest of any Sony studio. It's not. They have approx. 110 according to their website. Naughty Dog have 250+ and have been able to split into two teams thanks to that number. Guerrilla Games have 270+. PD should have 200 at the minimum, probably 300.

PS Neither are perfect but I'll take the slightly OTT but fairly realistic sounds of Forza 4 over the lifeless, synthetic drone of GT5 any day.
 
Let's say the typical racing sim has 30 unique cars in the stable. And that the sound team has 18 months to get the audio package together for a game's release. This means they have almost three weeks they can devote to each car and get it right.

Let's say that GT5 has 600 unique cars, probably way low, but let's use that. And they worked on the audio for the game for four years, which is probably way long, but let's go with that. This means they have about three days to spend getting the sound right for every car.

The Microsoft video with the lead sound guy for Forza 4 which is linked somewhere in this thread has a quote from him that sounds for one car in FM4 took about three days to turn around once they'd got their process down.


PD's choice to have a small team is just that, their choice. They have the budget and the resources to have many, many more people if they wanted. They choose not to, so they don't get cut any slack for having a small team in my book. A relatively small team like PD on a console-selling AAA title budget is a totally different kettle of fish from a small team on a shoestring budget.

Still no one knows why they don't just hire more people, or not that I've heard anyway.
 
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