Give us better sounds - PLEASE !!

[Griffith500]

Ooh, yeah, I'm really interested to see what T10 can do with 8 Gig of unified memory. I guess it won't be long until we see what PD are doing with it, either.

Still, it's true that memory limitations aren't causing the wrong samples to be attributed to certain cars (well, any car, really, if you consider "modified" sounds), but that memory limitation is still there. It's interesting that T10 basically have every other car at a lower "level of detail" than the one in focus.

That's also what GT2 did, using the newly recorded sounds for your car, whilst the AI used GT's sounds instead; although it didn't swap in the "good" samples if you switched to a different car in the replay. I think GT3 had the same sounds (the "good" ones from GT2) for all cars in the scene, so that's a compromise they took - the overall sound quality (in terms of the number of samples, their length and their bitrate) is limited by dividing your memory budget (for engine sound samples) amongst all cars equally, rather than maximising it for the one car likely to be nearest / of most interest (the player's).

Qualitatively, it is possible for some cars to sound good in a given sample format, and others to sound terrible. It depends on how well the loops are made, and how well suited to the looping mechanism (effectively) the actual car's sounds are - an example being the 787B's idle being the perfect period / frequency for the short loops in the game. This is analogous to Kaz's comments regarding the dynamic lighting requirements being harder to achieve aesthetically pleasing results for (within the constraints of the system) with some tracks than with others.

 

[Imari]

But those expecting a quantum jump in exhaust quality along with the DLC, I doubt you're going to see that on PS3. Bring up PC sims, that's fine, but it's apples and Volvos. I sincerely doubt many PC gaming rigs have 256 megs of ram, and the car list is paltry compared to GT5. I think the only real comparison you can make is that dreaded F-word game on XB360.

I don't think so. If we're just looking at sounds, there's no need to stick to purely simulation style racing games. There are plenty of racing games that have very decent sounds on PS3.

Admittedly, they don't have a car list the size of GT5, but nothing does. That was a design decision on the part of PD. If they couldn't do a thousand cars to the quality level they found acceptable, they were free to do less. They chose to make a game with a thousand cars, and they need to meet the challenges associated with that. Not just use it as a marketing tool and half-ass stuff because "but so many cars".

This is not kindergarten where you get brownie points for trying hard. They're professional developers getting paid millions of dollars, and if they can't deliver a quality comparable with other games in the genre then perhaps they should lower their sights.

 

[Tenacious D]

I don't think so. If we're just looking at sounds, there's no need to stick to purely simulation style racing games. There are plenty of racing games that have very decent sounds on PS3.

Admittedly, they don't have a car list the size of GT5, but nothing does. That was a design decision on the part of PD. If they couldn't do a thousand cars to the quality level they found acceptable, they were free to do less. They chose to make a game with a thousand cars, and they need to meet the challenges associated with that. Not just use it as a marketing tool and half-ass stuff because "but so many cars".

Yes, but that's not "our" problem. Neither Griffith or I would say half assing a good number of car sounds is a good thing. We just accept the consequences because we want that massive car list. You and your fellow sound purists don't because of whatever.

So who's right?

 

[Imari]

Yes, but that's not "our" problem. Neither Griffith or I would say half assing a good number of car sounds is a good thing. We just accept the consequences because we want that massive car list. You and your fellow sound purists don't because of whatever.

So who's right?

That's not what I was saying. You're willing to accept (and excuse me for making this sound bad, but I can't think of a better way to say it) sub-standard sounds for a large car list. That's fine. Not what I'd do, but a valid choice. You're aware of the limitations but they don't bother you. That's cool.

What I was replying to was the feeling that somehow the sounds were OK because of the large amount of cars. PD have created the limitations that led to their presumed need to cut corners, whether it's the car list or dedicating hardware resources to other things or whatever. It's essentially their design choice to have poor quality sounds. That's not and will never be good design.

I can understand the stance that "the sounds are not great but I'm willing to put up with them because of X". I strongly disagree with the argument that turns up sometimes that because PD have so many cars it's OK to have poor sounds. Bad sounds are bad. There's a certain amount of subjectivity but I'm yet to see anyone claim that GT5s sounds are good outside of a few select examples. Overall, they're just not up to standard.

I suspect that I misunderstood what you were saying, so I apologise.

 

[Samus]

Yes, but that's not "our" problem. Neither Griffith or I would say half assing a good number of car sounds is a good thing. We just accept the consequences because we want that massive car list. You and your fellow sound purists don't because of whatever.

So who's right?

It's a joke that wanting virtual cars to sound something like real cars in a car game makes you a 'sound purist'. I could quite easily swing that around and say bad sounds, bad standard cars and whatever other valid issues people bring up don't bother you because Gran Turismo. You overlook or ignore them because Gran Turismo.

 

[McLOVIN5489]

I don't think so. If we're just looking at sounds, there's no need to stick to purely simulation style racing games. There are plenty of racing games that have very decent sounds on PS3.

Admittedly, they don't have a car list the size of GT5, but nothing does. That was a design decision on the part of PD. If they couldn't do a thousand cars to the quality level they found acceptable, they were free to do less. They chose to make a game with a thousand cars, and they need to meet the challenges associated with that. Not just use it as a marketing tool and half-ass stuff because "but so many cars".

This is not kindergarten where you get brownie points for trying hard. They're professional developers getting paid millions of dollars, and if they can't deliver a quality comparable with other games in the genre then perhaps they should lower their sights.

I disagree with that implication.....analogy time:

If you're locked in a room for a year (or any extended period of time),
Would you rather have a console with one great game, or a similar console with 15 games that aren't as good? My replay factor Jones gets satisfied with the variety of GTs cars, and if that means sacrificing some sound detail, I can live with it.
Im not the type of guy that'll push away my plate because its missing the decorative basil leaf....I'm there to EAT.

Ok, you can continue

 

[Imari]

I disagree with that implication.....analogy time:

If you're locked in a room for a year (or any extended period of time),
Would you rather have a console with one great game, or a similar console with 15 games that aren't as good? My replay factor Jones gets satisfied with the variety of GTs cars, and if that means sacrificing some sound detail, I can live with it.
Im not the type of guy that'll push away my plate because its missing the decorative basil leaf....I'm there to EAT.

Ok, you can continue

I'm guessing you're implying that GT is the one great game, and other racing games are the 15 not so good games? Can you see how some people might disagree with that?

I'm not saying other people can't have their own opinion on how strongly it affects the game. Some people don't notice the screen tearing in GT5. Good for them. It still drives other people mental, and it's always there regardless of whether you notice or not.

Sounds are the same. If you're OK with it, good for you. But the poor sounds drive some people mental, and they're always there regardless of whether you personally notice or not.

Sounds are a big part of the immersion to some people. I dunno about you, but when I go to a racetrack and hear a nice car go past at full throttle it gives me a bit of a tingle. It's exciting. Some games do that for me. GT never has, and I sort of wish it would.

Sounds in GT are not good. If you don't mind looking at it as some sort of trade-off or just can't notice then that's great. It doesn't make them any better for the rest of us, and it's not like the sounds aren't a valid area of concern.

 

[machschnel]

My replay factor Jones gets satisfied with the variety of GTs cars, and if that means sacrificing some sound detail, I can live with it.

But aren't car's more than just a name on a list?

Don't the graphics (standards?) contribute to the car?

Don't the sounds contribute to the car (if a V8 doesn't sound like a V8, is it still a V8?)?

I put it to you that while you not only sacrifice sound detail, you are also sacrificing the very variety that satisfies your desires.


What you would rather - two sons, complete with everything that makes a human, or, two daughters and two sons with random legs/arms etc missing. Sounds gruesome, but at least you'd have the variety of two different sexes and twice as many kids to keep your attention.

 

[Tenacious D]

Ahem. Well... I agree with every post below mine. Samus should love that.

With one of those dreaded TenD caveats, which I'll get to. You just can't argue with PD having fallen pretty short and being content with pretty much the same samples as GT3 and 4. Those who state that Gran Turismo has never changed since GT1 are just blowing vapor, but GT3? Yeah, pretty much. It has been improving right along, but at a snails pace. And usually it's in these quantum jumps like the NASCARs and Honda HSV, just new cars here and there.

Now for that caveat, or so. You know my pesky mantra which has been creeping into my posts increasingly. "I love cars. I want those cars. Gimme those cars." While PD has been fudging the game along arguably since GT3, guilty as charged, I'm sure that there are reasons for that along some combo of "We put emphasis on new work and content, and we have a work budget we had to meet" and "The current Playstation technology is still insufficient to really progress as we would like."

And listen, I really doubt that Turn 10 half assed the non-focus car samples because it would be cute or kitchy to do. And those lame samples sound rather similar to GT5's pencil sharpeners to me. To really throw this point on its head, I prefer the pencil sharpeners in a number of cases. But this is what I think is the real point. Even the "much better" - point much debated - 360 couldn't give you everything Turn 10 wanted to deliver, and the PS3 architecture isn't as flexible in many ways. And the vague "other games are better" meme doesn't work too well for me, because other than Dirt 3 or the F1 games off the top of my head, I don't think they're nearly as good. And of course you have much fewer cars, and fewer types in race at once, meaning fewer samples to squeeze into the console. Apples and bananas.

I really think that on consoles, the overall best games are GT5 and Forza 4. Personal opinion to be sure but I think my footing is pretty solid. And I would put both of them up against any current gen PC sim because I did - current gen being shy of iRacing and rFactor 2 which I have no experience with. And then there's this.

I can understand the stance that "the sounds are not great but I'm willing to put up with them because of X". I strongly disagree with the argument that turns up sometimes that because PD have so many cars it's OK to have poor sounds. Bad sounds are bad. There's a certain amount of subjectivity but I'm yet to see anyone claim that GT5's sounds are good outside of a few select examples. Overall, they're just not up to standard.

I know in communication, especially net chat, there is room for a certain amount of nuance. If you and your fellows' point is that you want Gran Turismo to improve and so you're bringing the hammer, ehh... kind of heavy handed for me, but hey, I'm in agreement with the goal. But if it's that "these sounds make GT5 a sucky game," we'll just have to differ on that, because I've bought and haven't played about a dozen or more PS3 games still in shrinkwrap because GT5 is just that awesome to me. And I like the choices PD made in order for me to have my full toybox full of cars.

And no need to apologize. Sometimes I get miffy, and sometimes it's hard to tell if I'm not because of the nature of quick posts and all, but I really do prefer to be humorie rather than disagreeable.

 

[Johnnypenso]

...wall of text...

You know, all you really have to say is, "I love GT5 in spite of it's obvious shortcomings, yes the sounds are not very good especially for 2013, I believe PD made tradeoffs in the allocation of resources and sound just hasn't been a priority so far. In spite of that, I still feel it's a great game". End of discussion.

 

[McLOVIN5489]

I'm guessing you're implying that GT is the one great game, and other racing games are the 15 not so good games? Can you see how some people might disagree with that?

I'm not saying other people can't have their own opinion on how strongly it affects the game. Some people don't notice the screen tearing in GT5. Good for them. It still drives other people mental, and it's always there regardless of whether you notice or not.

Sounds are the same. If you're OK with it, good for you. But the poor sounds drive some people mental, and they're always there regardless of whether you personally notice or not.

Sounds are a big part of the immersion to some people. I dunno about you, but when I go to a racetrack and hear a nice car go past at full throttle it gives me a bit of a tingle. It's exciting. Some games do that for me. GT never has, and I sort of wish it would.

Sounds in GT are not good. If you don't mind looking at it as some sort of trade-off or just can't notice then that's great. It doesn't make them any better for the rest of us, and it's not like the sounds aren't a valid area of concern.

You misunderstand the analogy.....the one great game is the less varied but more detailed cars in a PC sim or other racing game... The 15 great games are the hundreds of cars in GT that some of you are "driven mental" with because of sounds or some other individual character flaw. If that's enough to turn you off to the entire game then hey, gamestop is right down the street. I still have the most fun with the DRIVING/HANDLING aspect of each car. The sounds are not enough to turn me off to mastering each one of them. But as I've said before,that's just me.
A guy like me just wants to drive and have fun 👍

@mach none of those factor in to the BEHAVIOR of the car when you handle it.....which is the MEAT of what I love about mastering each car.

 

[Griffith500]

There is obviously a difficulty with the scope a game like GT (or Forza, the only thing really comparable in terms of scope) has. I mean, there's obviously the gargantuan car list (that we all pretty much take for granted now, I reckon) but there's also the fact that these cars can be "modified".

The scope for that, given you can effectively (although not directly, really) change things like cams, aspiration, fueling and of course the bigger stuff like exhaust and intake tract (as well as the smaller stuff like displacement, bore / stroke and compression ratio etc.), is just insane.

This is a very real problem, and the current method of just recording cars means that in order to properly account for all those changes in the sound (which is surely something we'd all quite like? Is that just a silly assumption of mine?) you need to record examples of every single one of them in isolation and, crucially, in combination. The number starts to get very big, especially when these changes can occur on continuous scales - how finely do you sample them?


Now you could just take shortcuts and say this is what a six cylinder will sound like with these parts, but that's not very interesting (and would get annoying quick if that's not how you want your six cylinder to sound anyway). A better way might be to test all of those modifications on real cars and see what the larger differences are and focus on those - see if some of them can be folded together, effectively. That should reduce the number significantly, but you still need to put that work in (and without any real technical understanding, you will be doing it blindly and inefficiently).

What might help with that selection process would be to start thinking about changes before you actually do them - what do we expect will be the major factors? Are some effects two sides of the same phenomenon? Etc. You could start messing around with crude simulations and compare it to data freely available (and what manufacturers have, potentially) and then validate that against a small selection of cars / mods.

Whilst you're making this simulation, you could probably go into some real depth, though, and see how the sounds are made from the ground up. See if there are shortcuts you could take that might save you recording quite so many cars at all, simply by modifying what sounds you have based on insight from that simulation framework. That's when things get interesting.


Once you have a fully featured simulation, you don't need to worry too much (once it's validated at least) with getting all the combinations in real life, because you can get the behaviour you need from the model. You can even do things that don't exist in real life, for whatever reason (which is not to say it's not realistic, necessarily - some of "my" exhaust configurations are an exmaple of that; e.g. straight 8s weren't really around long enough for things to diversify very much, and there's a lot of room for experimentation).

For something that is supposed to offer that scope, it would be nice if it were reflected in the game - especially with the sound. At the momnet, all we have are compromises, and it'd be nice to sidestep all of that entirely and do it a more sensible way.
This is ultimately what I hope PD are doing, as they've kept with the multiple exhausts thing even though it clearly got away from them, whereas T10 abandoned it not long before their car list ballooned. That's not a quality judgment either way (partly because T10 are looking at this stuff themselves), just an observation on the overall difficulty and scale of the task in front of them both.

Clearly, GT needs this improvement to come sooner rather than later.

 

[Samus]

Tenacious D, I like how you just avoid answering specific questions aimed at you in a 'debate'.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

GT5 actually has pretty good sound engine, I increase the rpm red line of my Supra MA70 Gr A replica to over 8000rpm, the sound changes, higher in pitch in a good way, fitted with sports exhaust

 

[Johnnypenso]

@mach none of those factor in to the BEHAVIOR of the car when you handle it.....which is the MEAT of what I love about mastering each car.

Problem is, most people eat vegetables with their meat because only meat, no matter how good it is, get's boring after a while. Sound is a core element of any car game and a huge part of the immersion process. No game that calls itself a "driving simulator" can be taken seriously as such without somewhat close to accurate sounds. Doesn't mean they can't get by, they obviously do, all of us who bought the game can get over the sounds as they are and still enjoy the game, but that doesn't mean they are acceptable as they are and not in need of dramatic improvement.

 

[Samus]

Also a high number of cars isn't a great excuse when they certainly don't all need a unique sound recording.

 

[Griffith500]

GT5 actually has pretty good sound engine, I increase the rpm red line of my Supra MA70 Gr A replica to over 8000rpm, the sound changes, higher in pitch in a good way, fitted with sports exhaust

That's one of the problems; your samples are only really good for the range they're meant to cover. GT doesn't allow overrevving, and I'd bet a big part of that is because the samples would bug out if it did (or at least, it'd have to be handled carefully, but probably wouldn't sound great even then). In fact, I can't think of many games that do handle overrevving properly, except LFS and GPL (which just asploded the engine immediately anyway).

My main prototype, in that it's the one I played with the most, was sample based, but it did it in a different way. That meant that although I didn't have samples above, say, 9000 rpm, you could happily rev it well above that and not have weird pitching effects because of the way the synthesis worked - there was plenty of variation left, even though the samples were "constant", up to around 11k for a typical 4 cylinder. What artefacts did creep in were there for samples made for that engine speed anyway (which is why I need to write my own software...)

With GT, NA cars always seemed a bit underwhelming, because the tuning descriptions promise higher revs etc. with upgrades, but they never really materialise. You might get 500 - 1000 rpm if you're lucky, and then only if the samples will allow it (or rather, if they have samples / recordings available for it). It's unlikely to be the single consideration involved, but I doubt it's unimportant.

 

[McLOVIN5489]

Problem is, most people eat vegetables with their meat because only meat, no matter how good it is, get's boring after a while.

Favoring my point on having many cars vs a few reeeeaaaallly good looking and sounding ones.... You could sub the lower variety of super detailed cars in other titles in as the meat while the much wider variety in GT as the veggies with meat...

 

[Johnnypenso]

Favoring my point on having many cars vs a few reeeeaaaallly good looking and sounding ones...

Do you think that there are only two options? How about premium sound on the premium cars only for now? Cars can be premium in the visual and auditory sense as well. That is far less work than premium sound for all. Also, there are so many duplicates that you wouldn't actually have to do all of the cars, many could be complete copies of one another or nearly so with little tweaks here and there.

The cars are already made you won't lose any by updating the sounds. There are ways to have all the cars and begin the upgrade to premium sound at the same time.

 

[Imari]

If that's enough to turn you off to the entire game then hey, gamestop is right down the street.

 

[Garland]

Kinda appreciate that I'm not a big car buff; to me, all the cars sound like cars, and that's all I care about. GT doesn't even try to be immersive. There's a LOT of work to be done to even approach that realm, and Polyphony's kinda small. That doesn't mean there isn't a problem with the sound (Griffith 500's post is a great read), but it does mean that it's kinda hard to slight Polyphony over. Instead, car models are definitely something to complain about, and I say this when the standard models look great to me (but GT3 also looks great to me). Thing is, I think modeling the cars is going to be a lot easier than anything else.

However, I'm worried about just how small Polyphony might be; they might very well be spending their every waking hour working on car models anyway. Even if they can't be considered "small", it's pretty clear they need more raw manpower.

(There are a few problems that are really easy to fix, though. I need to send a letter to Polyphony somehow. Wish I could just go there and help them.)

(Pretty much every GT6 thread can be considered as one, as with all upcoming games.)

 

[Imari]

There's a LOT of work to be done to even approach that realm, and Polyphony's kinda small.

http://digitalbattle.com/2010/02/20/top-10-most-expensive-video-game-budgets-ever/

At the time, GT5 had the second largest budget for a video ever. PD is small by choice. They (presumably) think they can do a better job with a small team than a large one.

It's one thing to give indies a break for having small teams, they're on tight budgets and have to make do with what they have. There simply isn't the money.

A first party studio with a budget of an estimated $80 million dollars does not get to claim that faults in the game are due to a lack of resources. If anyone has the resources to do it right, PD does. If they can't do it properly with a small team, they're more than able to address that. And if they choose not to, I don't see how it's anyone's fault but PD's.

 

[Samus]

http://digitalbattle.com/2010/02/20/top-10-most-expensive-video-game-budgets-ever/

At the time, GT5 had the second largest budget for a video ever. PD is small by choice. They (presumably) think they can do a better job with a small team than a large one.

It's one thing to give indies a break for having small teams, they're on tight budgets and have to make do with what they have. There simply isn't the money.

A first party studio with a budget of an estimated $80 million dollars does not get to claim that faults in the game are due to a lack of resources. If anyone has the resources to do it right, PD does. If they can't do it properly with a small team, they're more than able to address that. And if they choose not to, I don't see how it's anyone's fault but PD's.

But, they're, like, a family. That counts for so much more. Oh and don't forget this:

3. I prefer SONY's and Polyphony's ability to keep a secret. Microsoft does it their own way... you know. SONY is tight lipped. Polyphony does it by Kaz hand picking quality, trustworthy people.

 

[Johnnypenso]

But, they're, like, a family. That counts for so much more. Oh and don't forget this:

Well why didn't someone say that earlier? That makes everything ok!! And, they can keep a secret? Great Odin's ravin, that excuses everything. How dare anyone criticize the secretive family of PD!!!!

 

[Griffith500]

Do you think that there are only two options? How about premium sound on the premium cars only for now? Cars can be premium in the visual and auditory sense as well. That is far less work than premium sound for all.

This is something I considered before the game released. It might have worked, but I would expect that the sounds would be under the spotlight more than the models are (there's nowhere really for them to hide). Regardless of that, such a split brings back the "consistency" and "quality over quantity" arguments. I doubt I would have minded.

Also, there are so many duplicates that you wouldn't actually have to do all of the cars, many could be complete copies of one another or nearly so with little tweaks here and there.

To an extent, yes. But how do you simplify the issue of which cars to choose? Pick the "most popular" ones? Or the sub-set that best approximates the full set with the fewest extra recordings / re-renderings of existing recordings? How do you achieve either? The latter comes back to what I said in a previous post about doing something like that efficiently practically requiring steps into modeling anyway. On the other hand, whilst you're investigating your physical modeling, you can use that insight to strategically record (/ re-master samples for) a few cars to cover the perceptually important bases.

Also, we're not just talking about stock cars here (which must surely all be being recorded), and as long as there is a degree of mix'n'match and broad ranges of adjustment (in tuning), there must surely be a desire for the sounds to mirror all of that (or is that up for debate?). If you improve the stock sounds but neglect the modifieds just the same as before (because to tackle them requires the above simplifications, only there are far more of them to do), the gulf will be even worse than it already is.

I'm talking about "boosting" the quality of the existing sampling scheme here, not their "completely new" method - which is hindered technically, not in terms of content, as I expect they'll be making them for a format that'll work on PS4 and are simply trying to shoehorn that into the PS3.

The cars are already made you won't lose any by updating the sounds. There are ways to have all the cars and begin the upgrade to premium sound at the same time.

This is true, but they would still always only be stopgaps (and, again, how do you choose the right cars?). The tradeoff is the value of the goodwill lost on stale sounds versus the time saved in producing the very newest ones, as well as their "intrinsic value". PD obviously think that balance lies fully in favour of the new stuff. I can't tell you how much I want them to get them working on PS3, but I'd already convinced myself it wasn't possible. I really shouldn't be as "involved" as I am! .

 

[Tenacious D]

Tenacious D, I like how you just avoid answering specific questions aimed at you in a 'debate'.

Well, Mr Grumpy, there are a few reasons.

1. Often, I find that an authority figure like Griffith 500 answers them for me much better than I could myself. And a constant stream of "What they said" would probably get old, am I right?

2. I don't intend to spend my life on these boards embroiled in "stupid board politics" as my relatives calls endless board squabbles. And I do a certain amount of skimming, especially when the point is usually "The sounds are sucky," "The Standard cars are sucky," and "Because of this, Kaz and PD are sucky." Which is pretty pointless to debate. I usually just ignore those and move on.

3. There is this corpse of you, Tornado, Luminis, LMS Corvette, Slipztreme and someone else, Devedander at one time too, who seem to delight in nothing but using your opinions as baseball bats to beat people up with. It's not to shake out ideas and see what gold falls out on either side, it even sometimes seems mean spirited. I see no value in even getting into it with you many times, and I just step around your posts. In particular, I'm still baffled by Slip stating that the Mazda 6 isn't really much of a race car. Oh except the diesel - as if it's no longer a Mazda 6. That one I pretty much just walked away from because there was NO point to even considering it any longer.

If that's not enough, I have a criminal brother running from the law who has miraculously been thrown out of my dad's house, now my house since he recently passed away, and he and a group of drug casualties nearly wrecked it the way he seriously trashed one of dad's other properties, to the point we nearly lost it from condemnation. I'm going over every night and struggling to get it sorted so I can move in, and inbetween bouts, recording a friend's album project in lengthy sessions, and when I can grab some me time, write a bit and occasionally hop into a discussion here. I hope now you understand why I post sporadically these days.

So, look, if you really have a point you think I'm slighting, at some time I'll scope out the last couple of posts and see if you were inadvertently being dissed. But if this is just another one of your condescending guilt trips, I'm just not impressed with them at all, sorry.

 

[Samus]

1. How can Griffith500 answer questions specifically directed at you and things you've said?

2. So why start a debate if you don't intend to finish it?

3. Oh yes we're the big bad meanies who just wants to beat you up. Sure thing.

As for the rest I'm sorry if you're having personal issues but I would bring you back to point 2. You also seem to have had time to reply and make lengthy posts, just ignoring any specific points asked of you.

So, how about answering some of the questions I asked here?
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8722907#post8722907

Or maybe my reply to your point here:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8731212#post8731212

Both of which you just ignored in your following responses.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

That's one of the problems; your samples are only really good for the range they're meant to cover. GT doesn't allow overrevving, and I'd bet a big part of that is because the samples would bug out if it did (or at least, it'd have to be handled carefully, but probably wouldn't sound great even then). In fact, I can't think of many games that do handle overrevving properly, except LFS and GPL (which just asploded the engine immediately anyway).

My main prototype, in that it's the one I played with the most, was sample based, but it did it in a different way. That meant that although I didn't have samples above, say, 9000 rpm, you could happily rev it well above that and not have weird pitching effects because of the way the synthesis worked - there was plenty of variation left, even though the samples were "constant", up to around 11k for a typical 4 cylinder. What artefacts did creep in were there for samples made for that engine speed anyway (which is why I need to write my own software...)

With GT, NA cars always seemed a bit underwhelming, because the tuning descriptions promise higher revs etc. with upgrades, but they never really materialise. You might get 500 - 1000 rpm if you're lucky, and then only if the samples will allow it (or rather, if they have samples / recordings available for it). It's unlikely to be the single consideration involved, but I doubt it's unimportant.

Not sure what you mean - at least the sound of the engine still decent IMO, I can make engine have higher rev range, for example : I can make my Devil Z replica revs/red line from the usual 7600rpm to close to 9000rpm, my RUF CTR Blackbird can also be tuned to have peak HP at 8000+rpm and redline at close to 9000+rpm ( original engine no swap ). The Supra MA70 550+HP Gr. A have redline close to 9000rpm as well, nothing sounded weird ... what do you mean by weird ?

There's another cool thing too, when I put twin turbo kit on certain cars - for example my Ferrari 512BB, it produces more sound details that convince the driver an actual turbo is installed ( not just bov sound ), not sure how to put it, it just sounds gorgeous in cockpit view - use original engine, strictly sports exhaust - no sure why, but in GT5, turbo engine have more effects in sports exhaust - it gives that popping sound when releasing throttle quickly, blipping on downshift


Add me : GTP_Orido to try these cars, I have several replicas, Devil Z, Blackbird, the Gobstoppers WRX, TT 512BB, Gr. A MA70 Supra ( WRC and Touring )

 

[SlipZtrEm]

In particular, I'm still baffled by Slip stating that the Mazda 6 isn't really much of a race car. Oh except the diesel - as if it's no longer a Mazda 6. That one I pretty much just walked away from because there was NO point to even considering it any longer.

Walked away from after your original comment on the car:

They don't even have the Mazda 6, which is a staple of many medium range racing teams. So don't expect everyone to agree with this.

Was proven to be more than a bit optimistic:

Some images for your perusal.

The overwhelming majority of those pictures are of the RWD diesel Grand Am car, as Slip said.

One current version of the car (of which only three exist, and is quite removed from the 6's available in GT5), and a first-gen 6 competed in the Koni Challenge a few years ago. Yes, a staple of many teams .

By your reasoning (that the [admittedly badass] diesel GA 6 is in any way related to the street car), I'm sure happy PD included the Fusion Nascar rides, it's just like the road car!

Now, this is probably what Samus is getting at.

 

[Tenacious D]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. I say I wish Forza had the Mazdsa 6 because people buid them into race cars, and Slip immediately pounces on it, saying "It's not really a race car, (except it kind of is)." Like... you people freak me the hell out, I'm sayin'...

Anyway, I'll deal with The Kinder, Gentler Simon later, when I have some time. late for work natch.