Global Warming/Climate Change Discussion Thread

[UKMikey]

I would've guessed all twenty thousand delegates would already have been meeting online in the run up to this summit.

Either you want a face to face meeting or not, but without knowing exactly what they're meeting up to discuss it seems a bit premature to me to declare the entire thing invalid.

 

[DK]

Until it becomes cheaper to do things the green way (or more expensive to do it the brown way), then the resource-rich folks will hold everything up.
Just look at Canada - I genuinely believe we would be further along if not for Alberta screaming about every plan to reduce carbon output. No Alberta, it is nothing personal that you are all in on oil sands but they are a big part of the problem.

I was thinking more along the lines of whipping up another 1/6.

 

[Danoff]

If they were serious about this climate change/global warming/Krazy Al's Klimate Kerfuffle/Whatevertheyarecallingitnow they all could have held the meeting remotely over the interwebs. Without spewing out a buttload of CO2.

Do you think that would have the same visibility? Would it really accomplish the climate change goal as well? We're going to have to emit carbon to combat carbon emission. This conference doesn't seem like it's an effective place to try to save carbon emissions if the goal is to reduce carbon emissions.

 

[Adamgp]

Do you think that would have the same visibility? Would it really accomplish the climate change goal as well? We're going to have to emit carbon to combat carbon emission. This conference doesn't seem like it's an effective place to try to save carbon emissions if the goal is to reduce carbon emissions.

No it probably wouldn't, but who cares. And they wouldn't be there in person to congratulate each other on being masters of the universe. They still could have done it remotely, and not dump a bunch of emissions into the atmosphere just to meet in person and come up with solutions about how to not dump a bunch of emissions into the atmosphere.

 

[Danoff]

No it probably wouldn't, but who cares. And they wouldn't be there in person to congratulate each other on being masters of the universe. They still could have done it remotely, and not dump a bunch of emissions into the atmosphere just to meet in person and come up with solutions about how to not dump a bunch of emissions into the atmosphere.

You're actively trying not to think critically about this if you equate the footprint of a rare conference to the national footprints that are represented there. Just imagine that you're thinking about this in terms of money, what you effectively said is they could have not spent $1 trying to figure out how to avoid losing $100,000,000.

 

[Touring Mars]

Surreal walk home tonight as the world leaders are shuttled from the COP26 conference centre (right next to where I live) to the Kelvingrove Art Gallery for a banquet dinner (right next to where I work). I walked home knowing that the roads were closed, so I walked through the park and came out at the top of my street, only to find that there was no way to cross the road. In fact, the only way across was to walk all the way back to work and then backtrack even further before heading back, making a 25 minute walk more like an 80-minute odyssey.

But as I got nearer to home, I watched multiple motorcades come past, including some London buses filled with delegates, including the UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson, a Range Rover with German Chancellor Angela Merkel in the back, plus one motorcade that was presumably a British Royal as it was followed by two cars filled with the UK equivalent of SWAT teams, armed to the teeth.

While it was known that some roads were going to be closed and barricaded shut to vehicles, no warning was given to locals that pedestrians would not be allowed to cross the road at all. This turned my walk home into a much, much longer walk, but for some people it was just not an option. But the police didn't know when the roads would be open to pedestrians again. I met a neighbour who told me that a friend of his was stuck on the wrong side of the road with his 87 year old father who has Parkinson's, but they were not allowed to cross. I hope some other police saw sense and let them over eventually, but there will be alot of unhappy locals around this evening!

With police helicopters, a scary FBI-style surveillance van (complete with men staring at screens in the back), armed SWAT teams, police horses, barricades and hundreds of police, it actually felt like having four stars in Grand Theft Auto at times...

​

 

[Adamgp]

You're actively trying not to think critically about this if you equate the footprint of a rare conference to the national footprints that are represented there. Just imagine that you're thinking about this in terms of money, what you effectively said is they could have not spent $1 trying to figure out how to avoid losing $100,000,000.

A rare conference that has occurred nearly every year since the 90's.

I'm not talking about money. All I'm saying is that the 20,000+ attending COP26 burned a bunch of fossil fuels to go to Glasgow to meet up and discuss how to stop using fossil fuels.

 

[Danoff]

A rare conference that has occurred nearly every year since the 90's.

I'm not talking about money. All I'm saying is that the 20,000+ attending COP26 burned a bunch of fossil fuels to go to Glasgow to meet up and discuss how to stop using fossil fuels.

You missed my point spectacularly. I know you're not talking about money. You're complaining about a tiny carbon cost in the effort of stopping a massive one. You're ignoring all sense of proportion and purpose in order to take a hypercritical position.

 

[Adamgp]

You missed my point spectacularly. I know you're not talking about money. You're complaining about a tiny carbon cost in the effort of stopping a massive one. You're ignoring all sense of proportion and purpose in order to take a hypercritical position.

And you're clearly ignoring my point. 20,000+ traveling to Glasgow is tiny amount of emissions?

If emissions were such a huge problem they could have saved a bunch and done this thing remotely. Added bonus, they wouldn't have to wear pants.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

And you're clearly ignoring my point. 20,000+ traveling to Glasgow is tiny amount of emissions?

If emissions were such a huge problem they could have saved a bunch and done this thing remotely. Added bonus, they wouldn't have to wear pants.

There are about 3+ million air passengers every day, and that's a low end estimate. 20,000 is less than 1% of that.

You are not obligated to have a bad faith position RE climate change, you know that, right?

 

[UKMikey]

Why should accountants draw a salary if their job is to save you money? To cover their operating costs. Spending energy to save energy and making emissions to potentially save a vastly greater amount of emissions is the same idea as this. It's not a religious position where any carbon emissions are sinful.

 

[Adamgp]

There are about 3+ million air passengers every day, and that's a low end estimate. 20,000 is less than 1% of that.

You are not obligated to have a bad faith position RE climate change, you know that, right?

Drop in the bucket, sure. Still 20,000+ that could have stayed home and done this remotely.

 

[Barra333]

Drop in the bucket, sure. Still 20,000+ that could have stayed home and done this remotely.

At conferences of ANY level, the face to face discussions away from the official meetings are often orders of magnitude more productive than the meeting itself. I expect that is even more true at a world leader level.

 

[Touring Mars]

Drop in the bucket, sure. Still 20,000+ that could have stayed home and done this remotely.

I think some it could be done remotely, and in fact quite a lot of it is.

But this is both a major international political meeting as well as a major, multi-event conference - not to mention the multitude of satellite meetings that are going on too, some in-person, some online and many a mixture of the two.

Yes, a lot of people have done a lot of travelling to be here, but most of the delegates are not doing any more travelling than they would otherwise be doing anyway, and the outcomes of this meeting are orders of magnitude more significant than even a high profile scientific conference.

These meetings are vital for people to make new connections and to have focused, detailed discussions that will shape global governmental policy for decades to come, and it simply cannot be done with a few Zoom discussions... of course those will be needed too, but it's more about making sure that the right people are fully engaged with each other in a manner that will allow everyone to interact in a range of different ways, and that means that in-person summits and conferences like COP26 will always be needed.

 

[Touring Mars]

Surreal walk home tonight as the world leaders are shuttled from the COP26 conference centre (right next to where I live) to the Kelvingrove Art Gallery for a banquet dinner (right next to where I work). I walked home knowing that the roads were closed, so I walked through the park and came out at the top of my street, only to find that there was no way to cross the road. In fact, the only way across was to walk all the way back to work and then backtrack even further before heading back, making a 25 minute walk more like an 80-minute odyssey.

But as I got nearer to home, I watched multiple motorcades come past, including some London buses filled with delegates, including the UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson, a Range Rover with German Chancellor Angela Merkel in the back, plus one motorcade that was presumably a British Royal as it was followed by two cars filled with the UK equivalent of SWAT teams, armed to the teeth.

While it was known that some roads were going to be closed and barricaded shut to vehicles, no warning was given to locals that pedestrians would not be allowed to cross the road at all. This turned my walk home into a much, much longer walk, but for some people it was just not an option. But the police didn't know when the roads would be open to pedestrians again. I met a neighbour who told me that a friend of his was stuck on the wrong side of the road with his 87 year old father who has Parkinson's, but they were not allowed to cross. I hope some other police saw sense and let them over eventually, but there will be alot of unhappy locals around this evening!

With police helicopters, a scary FBI-style surveillance van (complete with men staring at screens in the back), armed SWAT teams, police horses, barricades and hundreds of police, it actually felt like having four stars in Grand Theft Auto at times...

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This is almost the exact spot where I usually cross the road to get to the top of my street, but not tonight... and I wasn't the only one who was thwarted...

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Drop in the bucket, sure. Still 20,000+ that could have stayed home and done this remotely.

Have you worked on large projects via teleconferencing before?

 

[Adamgp]

At conferences of ANY level, the face to face discussions away from the official meetings are often orders of magnitude more productive than the meeting itself. I expect that is even more true at a world leader level.

Private one-on-ones or small group meetings can be done remotely as well. I do it all the time at work.

Have you worked on large projects via teleconferencing before?

Yep.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Private one-on-ones or small group meetings can be done remotely as well. I do it all the time at work.


Yep.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Adamgp]

Care to elaborate?

I answered your question.

 

[Barra333]

Private one-on-ones or small group meetings can be done remotely as well. I do it all the time at work.

How many of those came about spontaneously over a coffee between the planned meetings?

 

[Adamgp]

How many of those came about spontaneously over a coffee between the planned meetings?

I rarely drink coffee, but if I need to or want to contact a coworker I can do so anytime by setting up a meeting or just by a teams text chat. Again, do it all the time.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I answered your question.

Well, I am curious to know what your definition of a large project would be

 

[Adamgp]

Well, I am curious to know what your definition of a large project would be

Bigger than a small project.

 

[Barra333]

Bigger than a small project.

Now you're just being difficult.

I rarely drink coffee, but if I need to or want to contact a coworker I can do so anytime by setting up a meeting or just by a teams text chat. Again, do it all the time.

Spontaneous chats with coworkers are not the point of this conversation.
Let's say you are a climate scientist from some institute in Germany who is attending COP. You turn up to the conference, listen to some talks and head out to the venue foyer to grab a coffee. You line up next to a chap from some English university who you know does a certain type of research. Say hi to the other guy, introduce yourself, get talking over the coffee and discover that they are right on top of a niche issue you can't solve. Collaboration formed, and the combined knowledge advances both projects by years. Not at all possible in an online conference. I can promise you that this exact scenario will play out more than once this week.

 

[Adamgp]

Now you're just being difficult.

Spontaneous chats with coworkers are not the point of this conversation.
Let's say you are a climate scientist from some institute in Germany who is attending COP. You turn up to the conference, listen to some talks and head out to the venue foyer to grab a coffee. You line up next to a chap from some English university who you know does a certain type of research. Say hi to the other guy, introduce yourself, get talking over the coffee and discover that they are right on top of a niche issue you can't solve. Collaboration formed, and the combined knowledge advances both projects by years. Not at all possible in an online conference. I can promise you that this exact scenario will play out more than once this week.

Not being difficult. I just stopped caring.

And even those types of conversations can be done remotely.

 

[Barra333]

And even those types of conversations can be done remotely.

How do you start an online professional conversation with someone you don't know?

 

[Adamgp]

How do you start an online professional conversation with someone you don't know?

You think they all happen at the coffee shop?

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

How do you start an online professional conversation with someone you don't know?

The problem is that we arguing against a fake position. He's knows it's crap, we know it's crap, and he knows that we know it's crap. Lets just all agree that Adam doesn't believe in climate change for ____ reason (the real reason is because it's a policy position of the left) but that stance isn't plausibly defensible. So the most satisfying way to object is to poke around at perceived hypocrisy as a way to suggest that the other side doesn't actually care. It's quite a lot of unnecessary theatrics to say "I disagree" but the right is way too far down the hole of not-left contrarianism to turn back now.

 

[Touring Mars]

Not being difficult. I just stopped caring.

And even those types of conversations can be done remotely.

Have you ever attended a conference?

Ironically, a two minute chat at a major conference can lead to a lifetime of phone, email and online activity (as well as opportunities to make future in-person meetings more effective). What @Barra333 is saying is that this window of opportunity doesn't exist in a Zoom conference, and the context of the meeting is also very important. Science conferences, for example, also run alongside trade expos, workshops, poster sessions etc., where people can meet randomly and interact socially (remember when people used to do that?!) and relationships - both professional and personal - that can last a lifetime are made.

Conversely, even relationships that have lasted a lifetime can be stretched to breaking point by being limited to 'online only'... anyone who lived through lockdown can surely attest to the veracity of that. I personally didn't find it a pain (my opinion is that it was far better than nothing) but several friends just couldn't tolerate it for a variety of reasons.

 

[Adamgp]

The problem is that we arguing against a fake position. He's knows it's crap, we know it's crap, and he knows that we know it's crap. Lets just all agree that Adam doesn't believe in climate change for ____ reason (the real reason is because it's a policy position of the left) but that stance isn't plausibly defensible. So the most satisfying way to object is to poke around at perceived hypocrisy as a way to suggest that the other side doesn't actually care. It's quite a lot of unnecessary theatrics to say "I disagree" but the right is way too far down the hole of not-left contrarianism to turn back now.

That's a lot of incorrect assumptions about me, and conservatives in general.

Have you ever attended a conference?

Ironically, a two minute chat at a major conference can lead to a lifetime of phone, email and online activity (as well as opportunities to make future in-person meetings more effective). What @Barra333 is saying is that this window of opportunity doesn't exist in a Zoom conference, and the context of the meeting is also very important. Science conferences, for example, also run alongside trade expos, workshops, poster sessions etc., where people can meet randomly and interact socially (remember when people used to do that?!) and relationships - both professional and personal - that can last a lifetime are made.

Conversely, even relationships that have lasted a lifetime can be stretched to breaking point by being limited to 'online only'... anyone who lived through lockdown can surely attest to the veracity of that. I personally didn't find it a pain (my opinion is that it was far better than nothing) but several friends just couldn't tolerate it for a variety of reasons.

I have. And yet again, those types of conversations can be done remotely.