Global Warming/Climate Change Discussion Thread

  • Thread starter ZAGGIN
  • 3,644 comments
  • 221,419 views

Which of the following statements best reflects your views on Global Warming?


  • Total voters
    497
I think a good way Jordan and do his part is if he finds a server company who does a good power source, which will not affect the planet. Also did you guys hear google are using solar power as well, and google also needs a lot of power for there servers.
 
No scientific value at all...

But funny! :lol:

Its a good thing I am not a scientist then. How much energy is wasted with millions of computers on and typing away about how we should conserve energy?
 
Look before I jump on the global warming wagon...I want the global cooling that was pounded into my head for a decade or more to be explained....WTF...what happened to it !

My damm A?C bills were HORRIBLE this year...but not because it was hot..that happens ...like ...every ...summer..but because of the ARABS. !

maybe we can global warm them with some nice comfy nukes ? Will my bills go down ?
 
they said if climate change continues at this rate, by 2010 or something, 40% of the world's animal species will become extinct:(
 
i thinmk it was 2010 but i might be wrong, it's hot enough here already:indiff:

edit: this was my 1000th post and i missed it:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( argh i'm so stupid and cross with myself:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
 
Ice melts; increased global temperature.
Increased global temperature causes again; increased global temperature via means of the Greenhouse effect. Water vapour causes cloud and rainfall, in which global temperature declines from here on. Eventually, this leads to the Ice Age. As the expansion of the continental ice sheets takes place from downturn in temperature, it leads to land de/formation yada, yada, yada...

It's simply a glaciation cycle, but the main concern is how long it will last and what major effects will take place. The last major ice age was during the Cryogenian era, in which the whole earth was literally a 'snowball', in which the equator had been neared closely by permanent sea-water. This is where many theories are looked to for answers, but as for the truth behind them, it is relatively unknown.

But as for what you said ithiele, I highly, highly doubt that. I suspect 2050+ could be more suited at around 15-35%, as seen here: http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/06releases/r-global-warm320.htm





 
they said if climate change continues at this rate, by 2010 or something, 40% of the world's animal species will become extinct:(
Good, less roadkill and more room for humans to spread out. We can then drill for oil in places where it has become a wildlife preserve and find other natural resources in such places.[/SARCASM]


Seriously though, that sounds a teeny tiny bit (read: largely) exaggerated. It appears to be along the same lines of the polar ice caps will melt and sea levels will rise 300 feet.

This kind of thing is what brings about this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/30/business/media/30warming.html

Michael Palmer, the general manager of television stations WVII and WFVX, ABC and Fox affiliates in Bangor, has told his joint staff of nine men and women that when “Bar Harbor is underwater, then we can do global warming stories.”

“Until then,” he added. “No more.”

Mr. Palmer laid out his policy in an e-mail message sent out during the summer. A copy was sent to The New York Times. Mr. Palmer did not respond to a phone message left with an employee of the stations nor to an e-mail message. But a former staff member confirmed the e-mail message that went out during the summer after the stations broadcast a live report from a movie theater in Maine where Al Gore’s movie on global warming, “An Inconvenient Truth,” was opening.

Mr. Palmer began his e-mail message: “I was wondering where we should send the bill for the live shot Friday at the theater for the Al Gore commercial we aired.”

Mr. Palmer said he wanted no more stories broadcast on global warming because: “a) we do local news, b) the issue evolved from hard science into hard politics and c) despite what you may have heard from the mainstream media, this science is far from conclusive.” Mr. Palmer said in his e-mail message to his operations manager and two women who served as a news anchor and a reporter that he placed “global warming stories in the same category as ‘the killer African bee scare’ from the 1970s or, more recently, the Y2K scare when everyone’s computer was going to self-destruct.”


His point B is exactly in response to this sort of dramatic exaggeration. Too many proponents of global warming have left hard facts behind and jumped on the "We didn't listen" type of messages.

You would think that it is a sign when South Park makes a viable point, but they won't listen.
 
Hey, South Park seems to make a lot of good points. And good for Mr. Palmer.
I should have said it should be a sign when they make a point about you. I worded that wrong.

EDIT: It should be a sign when they make multiple points about you. I mean, "We didn't listen!" even though you were being "totally serial."

When the guys who make a living from tasteless jokes and potty mouthed kids can make you look like an idgit you might want to rethink your position.
 
Back in the day ...

1971 Paper on Warming and Cooling Factors
There was a paper by S. Ichtiaque Rasool and Stephen H. Schneider, published in the journal Science in July 1971. Titled "Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide and Aerosols: Effects of Large Increases on Global Climate," the paper examined the possible future effects of two types of human environmental emissions:

greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide;
particulate pollution such as smog, some of which remains suspended in the atmosphere in aerosol form for years.
Greenhouse gases were regarded as likely factors that could promote global warming, while particulate pollution blocks sunlight and contributes to cooling. In their paper, Rasool and Schneider theorized that aerosols were more likely to contribute to climate change in the foreseeable future than greenhouse gases, stating that quadrupling aerosols "could decrease the mean surface temperature (of Earth) by as much as 3.5 C. If sustained over a period of several years, such a temperature decrease could be sufficient to trigger an ice age!" As this passage demonstrates, however, Rasool and Schneider considered global cooling a possible future scenario, but they did not predict it.


[edit] 1974 and 1972 National Science Board
The Washington Post reports that in 1974 the National Science Board, the governing body of the National Science Foundation, stated:

During the last 20 to 30 years, world temperature has fallen, irregularly at first but more sharply over the last decade.
This statement is correct (see Historical temperature record) although the Washington Post quotes it with disapproval. The Post says the Board had observed two years earlier:

Judging from the record of the past interglacial ages, the present time of high temperatures should be drawing to an end . . . leading into the next glacial age.
This quote is taken quite out of context, however, and is misleading as it stands. A more complete quote is:

Judging from the record of the past interglacial ages, the present time of high temperatures should be drawing to an end ... leading into the next glacial age. However, it is possible, or even likely, than human interference has already altered the environment so much that the climatic pattern of the near future will follow a different path. . .

[edit] 1975 National Academy of Sciences report
There also was a study by the U.S. National Academy of Sciences about issues which needed more research (NAS). This heightened interest in the fact that climate can change. The 1975 NAS report titled "Understanding Climate Change: A Program for Action" did not make predictions, stating in fact that "we do not have a good quantitative understanding of our climate machine and what determines its course. Without the fundamental understanding, it does not seem possible to predict climate." Its "program for action" consisted simply of a call for further research, because "it is only through the use of adequately calibrated numerical models that we can hope to acquire the information necessary for a quantitative assessment of the climatic impacts."

The report further stated:

The climates of the earth have always been changing, and they will doubtless continue to do so in the future. How large these future changes will be, and where and how rapidly they will occur, we do not know..
This appears to be a clear rebuttal of those, such as SEPP who think that "the NAS "experts" exhibited ... hysterical fears" in the 1975 report.


[edit] 1975 Newsweek article
At the same time that these discussions were ongoing in scientific circles, a more dramatic account appeared in the popular media, notably an April 28, 1975 article in Newsweek magazine. Titled "The Cooling World," it pointed to "ominous signs that the Earth's weather patterns have begun to change" and pointed to "a drop of half a degree [Fahrenheit] in average ground temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere between 1945 and 1968." However, the Newsweek article did not make "environmentalist" claims regarding the cause of that drop. To the contrary, it stated that "what causes the onset of major and minor ice ages remains a mystery" and cited the NAS conclusion that "Not only are the basic scientific questions largely unanswered, but in many cases we do not yet know enough to pose the key questions." Rather than proposing environmentalist solutions, the Newsweek article suggested that "simple measures of stockpiling food or of introducing the variables of climatic uncertainty into economic projections of future food supplies" would be appropriate.[15] [16]

In the late 1970s there were several popular (and melodramatic) books on the topic, including The Weather Conspiracy: The Coming of the New Ice Age (review in Nature by Stephen Schneider).


[edit] 1979 WMO conference
Later in the decade, at a WMO conference in 1979, F K Hare reported that:

"Fig 8 shows... 1938 the warmest year. They [temperatures] have since fallen by about 0.4 °C. At the end there is a suggestion that the fall ceased in about 1964, and may even have reversed.
Figure 9 challenges the view that the fall of temperature has ceased... the weight of evidence clearly favours cooling to the present date... The striking point, however, is that interannual variability of world temperatures is much larger than the trend... it is difficult to detect a genuine trend...
It is questionable, moreover, whether the trend is truly global. Calculated variations in the 5-year mean air temperature over the southern hemisphere chiefly with respect to land areas show that temperatures generally rose between 1943 and 1975. Since the 1960-64 period this rise has been strong... the scattered SH data fail to support a hypothesis of continued global cooling since 1938.


[edit] Some other climate cooling catastrophes
Concerns about nuclear winter arose in the early 1980s from several reports. Similar speculations have appeared over effects due to catastrophes such as asteroid impacts and massive volcanic eruptions. A prediction that massive oil well fires in Kuwait would cause significant effects on climate was quite incorrect. The 2004 disaster film The Day After Tomorrow, based on the book The Coming Global Superstorm, by Art Bell and Whitley Strieber, depicted a scientifically implausible assortment of climate disasters caused by global warming, including sudden freezing.


and now...

[edit] Predictions of future Global Cooling?
In 2006 Khabibullo Abdusamatov predicted that Global Cooling, similar to the Little Ice Age, will begin around 2012-2015 and reach its peak between 2055-2060 [18] [19]. This view is based on predictions of future solar output and has not gathered wide support.


DAMMIT ! Make up your damned minds already !
 
"Global Warming continues to dominate the news, now saying that we're behind time, we need to act fast to prevent irrevessable damage to the Earth, the Australian government needs to do something fast, England is already doing it's part......."

"But not everyone beleives in Global Warming...."

"It is a very complex story...."

indeed, i beleive in it, and it's been dominating Australian news for the last four or so weeks
 
indeed, i beleive in it, and it's been dominating Australian news for the last four or so weeks

Mainly because we don't have anything interesting going on in the country.

It's just a load of paper-filler at the moment, every form of media crying 'Oh know it's getting Hotter and Hotter, and it's raining less and less!'. But fail to add that it's November and we're coming into the Australian summer.
 
Mainly because we don't have anything interesting going on in the country.

It's just a load of paper-filler at the moment, every form of media crying 'Oh know it's getting Hotter and Hotter, and it's raining less and less!'. But fail to add that it's November and we're coming into the Australian summer.

Exactly. Though the media is really starting to annoy me... :rolleyes:
 
Now Russia wants to claim the whole arctic sea to themselves for fishing due to the global warming which is melting the ice caps, I read on the paper. I find this absurd. Canada, US, Greenland, Norway and Russia all agreed on our border...yet they want to exploit this situation and claim the whole friggin' sea to themselves!
 
Now Russia wants to claim the whole arctic sea to themselves for fishing due to the global warming which is melting the ice caps, I read on the paper. I find this absurd. Canada, US, Greenland, Norway and Russia all agreed on our border...yet they want to exploit this situation and claim the whole friggin' sea to themselves!

OK OK...the ice is melting. Is there any sea in the world that a current country has a claim too?
 
....I don't get it.

The arctic sea is supposedly divided jointly to Norway, Canada, US, Russia and Greenland. Everybody has a share of the ocean until the north pole, where it all merges together. But Russia wants to claim the WHOLE arctic sea to themselves - that, I have problem with.
 
We have to study Global Warming and other environmental issues at school this term, i'm really getting sick of hearing about it:rolleyes:
 
Unfortunately, the world has to come to an end. This day is called Armageddon, which I believe will happen sometime this late century, or the century after. God created us, with the intention of destroying ourselves. We will we wiped out and forgotten about.
 
Unfortunately, the world has to come to an end.

Have I got enough time to finish my coffee and danish?

This day is called Armageddon

No - this day is called Monday. Happens once a week, if you're good.

which I believe will happen sometime this late century, or the century after.

Nice to see you've got a specific date in mind.

What, precisely, leads you to believe this anyway?


God created us, with the intention of destroying ourselves.

Seems quite mean-spirited really - and really farts in the face of any notion of free will. Is God really a six year old child with an Earth Lego set? Wow - if my religion said that God was that much of a complete bastard, I'd convert to Buddhism on the spot.

Better question - why would he (or He) go to all the trouble of creating us, and a planet for us to live on, and a universe for it to live in, and all of those animals and plants for us to hold dominion over, and spend ages appearing as pillars of this, that and the other to all kinds of weirdy-beardy long-ago men if, really, all along, he just wanted us dead?


We will we wiped out and forgotten about.

Most of the world's major religions centre on us being created in the image of a Creator and having an afterlife - a wonderful, wonderful afterlife, with Scalextric as far as the eye can see and acres of blackberry crumble - with that Creator. So what religion are you a part of that says "God made us to kill us and then it's all over"?
 
Have I got enough time to finish my coffee and danish?
Nope. Millenia from now you will be discovered much like a wooly mammoth; half-chewed danish in your mouth and your coffee cup raised halfway to your lips.
 
Have I got enough time to finish my coffee and danish?
No - this day is called Monday. Happens once a week, if you're good.

Nice to see you've got a specific date in mind.

What, precisely, leads you to believe this anyway?

Seems quite mean-spirited really - and really farts in the face of any notion of free will. Is God really a six year old child with an Earth Lego set? Wow - if my religion said that God was that much of a complete bastard, I'd convert to Buddhism on the spot.

Better question - why would he (or He) go to all the trouble of creating us, and a planet for us to live on, and a universe for it to live in, and all of those animals and plants for us to hold dominion over, and spend ages appearing as pillars of this, that and the other to all kinds of weirdy-beardy long-ago men if, really, all along, he just wanted us dead?

Most of the world's major religions centre on us being created in the image of a Creator and having an afterlife - a wonderful, wonderful afterlife, with Scalextric as far as the eye can see and acres of blackberry crumble - with that Creator. So what religion are you a part of that says "God made us to kill us and then it's all over"?

Well, I can't believe I'm saying this. But I couldn't have said it better myself. :D It's really scary when a non spiritual person can totally debunk a weak spiritual statement.
 
A good read below.

Article
>THE ECONOMICS AND POLITICS OF CLIMATE CHANGE: AN APPEAL TO REASON
>
>Nigel Lawson
>
>A Lecture to the Centre for Policy Studies
>http://www.cps.org.uk/latestlectures/
>
>1 November 2006
>
>THIS IS A HIGHLY COMPLEX SUBJECT, involving as it does science,
>economics and politics in almost equal measure. The Centre for Policy
>Studies has kindly agreed to publish a greatly extended version of this
>lecture as a pamphlet, in which I will be able to do greater justice to
>that complexity and to quote the sources of a number of the statements I
>propose to make this evening. It will also enable me to deal at slightly
>greater length with the scaremongering Stern Report, published earlier
>this week. But the essence of it is what I have to say tonight.
>
>* * *
>
>But first, a very brief comment on Stern. If scaremongering seems a
>trifle harsh, I should point out that, as a good civil servant, he was
>simply doing his masters' bidding. As Mr Blair's guru, Lord Giddens (the
>inventor of the so-called third way), laid down in this context in a
>speech last year, "In order to manage risk, you must scare people".
>
>In fact, the voluminous Stern Report adds disappointingly little to what
>was already the conventional wisdom - apart from a battery of
>essentially spurious statistics based on theoretical models and
>conjectural worst cases. This is clearly no basis for policy decisions
>which could have the most profound adverse effect on people's lives, and
>at a cost which Stern almost certainly underestimates. It is, in a very
>real sense, the story of the Iraq war, writ large.
>
>So let us get back to basics, and seek the answers to three questions,
>of increasing complexity. First, is global warming occurring? Second, if
>so, why? And third, what should be done about it?
>
>As to the first question, there is of course little doubt that the
>twentieth century ended warmer than it began. According to the Hadley
>Centre for Climate Prediction and Research, an offshoot of Britain's Met
>Office:
>
>"Although there is considerable year-to-year variability in annual-mean
>global temperature, an upward trend can be clearly seen; firstly over
>the period from about 1920-1940, with little change or a small cooling
>from 1940-1975, followed by a sustained rise over the last three decades
>since then."
>
>This last part is a trifle disingenuous, since what the graph actually
>shows is that the sustained rise took place entirely during the last
>quarter of the last century. Moreover, according to the Hadley Centre's
>data, there has so far been no further global warming since 1998.
>Whether the seven-year hiatus since then marks a change of trend or
>merely an unexplained and unpredicted blip in a continuing upward trend,
>time will tell.
>
>Apart from the trend, there is of course the matter of the absolute
>numbers. The Hadley Centre graph shows that, for the first phase, from
>1920 to 1940, the increase was 0.4 degrees centigrade. From 1940 to 1975
>there was a cooling of about 0.2 degrees. (It was during this phase that
>alarmist articles by Professor James Lovelock and a number of other
>scientists appeared, warning of the onset of a new ice age.) Finally,
>since 1975 there has been a further warming of about 0.5 degrees, making
>a total increase of some 0.7 degrees over the 20th century as a whole
>(from 1900 to 1920 there was no change).
>
>Why, then, has this modest - if somewhat intermittent - degree of global
>warming seems to have occurred. Why has this happened, and what does it
>portend for the future?
>
>The only honest answer is that we don't know.
>
>The conventional wisdom is that the principal reason why it has happened
>is the greatly increased amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere as a
>result of the rapid worldwide growth of carbon-based energy consumption.
>
>Now, there is no doubt that atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide
>increased greatly during the 20th century - by some 30 per cent - and
>most scientists believe this increase to be largely man-made. And carbon
>dioxide is one of a number of so-called greenhouse gases whose combined
>effect in the earth's atmosphere is to keep the planet warmer than it
>would otherwise be.
>
>Far and away the most important of these gases is water vapour, both in
>its gaseous form and suspended in clouds. Rather a long way back, carbon
>dioxide is the second most important greenhouse gas - and neither,
>incidentally, is a form of pollution.
>
>It is the published view of the Met Office that is it likely that more
>than half the warming of recent decades (say 0.3 degrees centigrade out
>of the overall 0.5 degrees increase between 1975 and 2000) is
>attributable to man-made sources of greenhouse gases - principally,
>although by no means exclusively, carbon dioxide.
>
>But this is highly uncertain, and reputable climate scientists differ
>sharply over the subject. It is simply not true to say that the science
>is settled; and the recent attempt of the Royal Society, of all bodies,
>to prevent the funding of climate scientists who do not share its
>alarmist view of the matter is truly shocking. The uncertainty derives
>from a number of sources. For one thing, the science of clouds, which is
>clearly critical, is one of the least well understood aspects of climate
>science.
>
>Another uncertainty concerns the extent to which urbanisation (not least
>in the vicinity of climate stations) has contributed to the observed
>warming. There is no dispute that urbanisation raises near-surface
>temperatures: this has long been observed from satellite infra-red
>imagery. The uncertainty is over how much of the estimated 20th century
>warming this accounts for. Yet another uncertainty derives from the fact
>that, while the growth in manmade carbon dioxide emissions, and thus
>carbon dioxide concentrations in the atmosphere, continued relentlessly
>during the 20th century, the global mean surface temperature, as I have
>already remarked, increased in fits and starts, for which there us no
>adequate explanation.
>
>But then - and this is the other great source of uncertainty - the
>earth's climate has always been subject to natural variation, wholly
>unrelated to man's activities. Climate scientists differ about the
>causes of this, although most agree that variations in solar radiation
>play a key part.
>
>It is well established, for example, from historical accounts, that a
>thousand years ago, well before the onset of industrialisation, there
>was - at least in Europe - what has become known as the mediaeval warm
>period, when
>temperatures were probably at least as high as, if not higher than, they
>are today.
>
>Going back even further, during the Roman empire, it may have been even
>warmer. There is archaeological evidence that in Roman Britain,
>vineyards existed on a commercial scale at least as far north as
>Northamptonshire.
>
>More recently, during the 17th and early 18th centuries, there was what
>has become known as the little ice age, when the Thames was regularly
>frozen over in winter, and substantial ice fairs held on the frozen
>river - immortalised in colourful prints produced at the time - became a
>popular attraction.
>
>Historical treeline studies, showing how far up mountains trees are able
>to grow at different times, which is clearly correlated with climate
>change, confirm that these variations occurred outside Europe as well.
>
>A rather different account of the past was given by the so-called
>"hockey-stick" chart of global temperatures over the past millennium,
>which purported to show that the earth's temperature was constant until
>the industrialisation of the 20th century. Reproduced in its 2001 Report
>by the supposedly authoritative Intergovernmental Panel on Climate
>Change, set up under the auspices of the United Nations to advise
>governments on what is clearly a global issue, the chart featured
>prominently in (among other publications) the present Government's 2003
>energy white paper. It has now been comprehensively discredited.
>
>But it is not only over time that the earth's climate displays
>considerable natural variability. Change also varies geographically. For
>example, there are parts of the world where glaciers are retreating, and
>others where glaciers are advancing. The fringes of the Greenland ice
>shelf appear to be melting, while at the centre of the shelf the ice is
>thickening. Curiously enough, there are places where sea levels are
>perceptibly rising, while elsewhere they are static or even falling -
>suggesting that local factors still dominate any global warming effects
>on sea levels.
>
>Again, extreme weather events, such as major storms in the Gulf of
>Mexico, have come and gone, at irregular intervals, for as long as
>records exist. Katrina, which caused so much damage to New Orleans, is
>regularly trotted out as a consequence of man-made climate change; yet
>the region's worst recorded hurricane was that which devastated
>Galveston in 1900. Following Katrina, the world's authorities on
>tropical storms set up an international panel, which included the
>relevant expert from the Met Office here in the UK. The panel reported,
>earlier this year, as follows:
>
> "The main conclusion we came to was that none of these high-impact
>tropical cyclones could be specifically attributed to global warming."
>
>This may not be all that surprising, given how little global warming has
>so far occurred; but I do not recall it featuring in Mr Gore's film.
>
>But this diversity makes it all too easy for the Al Gores of this world
>to select local phenomena which best illustrate their predetermined
>alarmist global narrative. We need to stick firmly to the central point:
>what has been the rise in global mean temperatures over the past hundred
>years, why we believe this has occurred, how much temperatures are
>likely to rise over the next hundred years or so, and what the
>consequences are likely to be.
>
>As is already clear, the only honest answer is that we do not know.
>Nevertheless, it is not unreasonable to try and guess; and this is
>essentially what the IPCC has devoted itself to doing. Its conclusion is
>that, by the end of this century, on a business-as-usual basis, global
>mean temperature might have risen by anything between 1 degree and 6
>degrees centigrade. This is based on a combination of the immensely
>complex computer models of the relationship between carbon dioxide
>concentrations and global temperature, developed by the Hadley Centre
>and others, coupled with a range of different projections of the likely
>growth of carbon dioxide emissions.
>
>This last part is not, of course, a scientific matter at all, but
>consists of economic forecasting. That is to say, it depends on the rate
>of world economic growth over the next hundred years (which in turn
>depends to a considerable extent on the projected world population), the
>energy-intensiveness of that growth, and the
>carbon-intensiveness of the energy used.
>
>The upper part of the IPCC's range of scenarios is distinctly
>unconvincing, depending as it does either on an implausibly high rate of
>population growth or, in particular, an unprecedented growth in energy
>intensiveness, which in fact has been steadily declining over the past
>50 years.
>
>Equally implausible are its estimates of the costs of any warming that
>may occur. For example, it makes great play of the damage to agriculture
>and food production from climate change. Quite apart from the fact there
>are many parts of the world where agriculture and food production would
>actually benefit from a warmer climate, the IPCC studies are vitiated by
>the fact that they assume that farmers would carry on much as before,
>growing the same crops in precisely the same way - the so-called 'dumb
>farmer' hypothesis.
>
>In reality, of course, farmers would adapt, switching as the need arose
>to strains or crops better suited to warmer climates, to improved
>methods of irrigation, and in many cases by cultivating areas which had
>hitherto been too cold to be economic.
>
>It is important to bear in mind that, whatever climate alarmists like to
>make out, what we are confronted with, even on the Hadley Centre/IPCC
>hypothesis, is the probability of very gradual change over a large
>number of years. And this is something to which it is eminently
>practicable to adapt.
>
>This points to the first and most important part of the answer to the
>question of what we should do about the threat of global warming: adapt
>to it. There are at least three reasons why adaptation is far and away
>the most cost-effective approach.
>
>The first is that many of the feared harmful consequences of climate
>change, such as coastal flooding in low-lying areas, are not new
>problems, but simply the exacerbation of existing ones; so that
>addressing these will bring benefits even if there is no further global
>warming at all.
>
>The second reason is that, unlike curbing carbon dioxide emissions, this
>approach will bring benefits whatever the cause of the warming, whether
>manmade or natural.
>
>And the third reason why adaptation - most of which, incidentally, will
>happen naturally, that is to say it will be market-driven, without much
>need for government intervention - is the most cost-effective approach
>is that all serious studies show that, not surprisingly, there are
>benefits as well as costs from global warming. Adaptation enables us to
>pocket the benefits while diminishing the costs.
>
>The main argument advanced against relying principally on adaptation is
>that it is all right for the rich countries of the world, but not for
>the poor, which is unacceptable.
>
>As Professor Mendelsohn of Yale, author of a number of studies of the
>impact of climate change, has written,
>
>"The net damages to mid to high latitude countries [such as the UK] will
>be very small if not beneficial this coming century. The impacts to poor
>low latitude countries will be harmful across the board...Climate change
>will hurt the poorest people in the world most."
>
>This is no doubt true, although it is frequently exaggerated. But it
>does mean that those of us in the richer countries of the world have a
>clear moral obligation to do something about it - not least because, if
>the man-made warming thesis is correct, it is we who caused the problem.
>
>According to the IPCC, the greatest single threat posed by global
>warming is coastal flooding as sea levels rise. Sea levels have, in
>fact, been rising very gradually throughout the past hundred years, and
>even the last IPCC Report found little sign of any acceleration.
>Nevertheless, Sir Nicholas Stern, charged by the Government to look into
>the economics of climate change is particularly concerned about this,
>especially the alleged melting of the Greenland ice sheet.
>
>He has written that:
>
>"The net effect of these changes is a release of 20 billion tonnes of
>water to the oceans each year, contributing around 0.05 millimetres a
>year to sea-level rise."
>
>This would imply an additional sea-level rise of less than a quarter of
>an inch per century, something it ought not to be too difficult to live
>with.
>
>But the major source of projected sea-level rise is from ocean warming
>expanding the volume of water. As a result, some of those low-lying
>areas already subject to serious flooding could find things getting
>significantly worse, and there is a clear case for government money to
>be spent on improving sea defences in these areas. The Dutch, after all,
>have been doing this very effectively for the past 500 years. The
>governments of the richer countries, like the United States with its
>Gulf coast exposure, can be left to do it for themselves; but in the
>case of the poorer countries, such as Bangladesh, there is a powerful
>argument for international assistance.
>
>Another problem for the poorer and hotter countries of the world,
>according to the IPCC, is an increase in vector-borne diseases, notably
>malaria. This is more controversial. Most experts believe that
>temperature has relatively little bearing on the spread of the disease,
>pointing out that it was endemic throughout Europe during the little ice
>age.
>
>Be that as it may, some two million children in the developing world die
>every year from malaria as it is; and the means of combating, if not
>eradicating, the scourge are well established. There is, again, a clear
>case for international assistance to achieve this.
>
>Of course assistance in either the building of effective sea defences or
>in the eradication of malaria will cost money. But that cost is only a
>very small fraction of what it would cost to attempt, by substantially
>curbing carbon dioxide
>emissions, to change the climate.
>
>The argument that we need to cut back substantially on carbon dioxide
>emissions in order to help the world's poor is bizarre in the extreme.
>To the extent that their problems are climatic, these problems are not
>new ones, even if they may be exacerbated if current projections are
>correct. If, twenty years ago, when as Chancellor I was launching the
>first concerted poor-country debt forgiveness initiative, subsequently
>known as the Toronto terms, anyone had argued that the best way to help
>the developing countries was to make the world a colder place, I would
>probably have politely suggested that they see their doctor. It makes no
>more sense today than it would have done then.
>
>Indeed, it is worse than that. As Frances Cairncross, the Chairman of
>the Economic and Social Research Council, pointed out in her thoughtful
>and honest Presidential address on climate change to the British
>Association's annual
>
>conference in September, the cost of effectively curbing carbon dioxide
>emissions "will definitely be enormous". Precisely how large it is
>impossible to say - even by Sir Nicholas Stern. Last year's report on
>the economics of climate change by the House of Lords Economic Affairs
>Committee quoted estimates ranging from $80 billion a year to $1,100
>billion a year. It would depend greatly, among other things, on how it
>is achieved and how soon - the earlier it is done the greater the cost.
>Of critical importance is how great the increase in the price of carbon
>would need to be to stifle the demand for carbon sufficiently; and that
>we cannot know unless and until we do it.
>
>But it is clear that the cost will be large enough, among other
>consequences, to diminish significantly the export markets on which the
>future prosperity of the developing countries at least in part depends.
>So far from helping the world's poor, it is more likely to harm them.
>
>Nevertheless, curbing carbon dioxide emissions, along the lines of the
>Kyoto accord, under which the industrialised countries of the world
>agreed to somewhat arbitrarily assigned limits to their CO2 emissions by
>2012, remains the conventional answer to the challenge of global
>warming. It is hard to imagine a more absurd response.
>
>Even its strongest advocates admit that, even if fully implemented
>(which it is now clear it will not be, and there is no enforcement
>mechanism), the existing Kyoto agreement, which came into force last
>year, would do virtually nothing to reduce future rates of global
>warming. Its importance, in their eyes, is as the first step towards
>further such agreements of a considerably more restrictive nature. But
>this is wholly unrealistic, and fundamentally flawed for a number of
>reasons. In the first place, the United States, the largest source of
>carbon dioxide emissions, has refused to ratify the treaty and has made
>clear its intention of having no part in any future such agreements.
>
>The principal American objection is that the developing countries -
>including such major contributors to future carbon dioxide emissions as
>China, India and Brazil - are effectively outside the process and
>determined to remain so. Indeed, both China and India currently
>subsidise carbon-based energy.
>
>The developing countries' argument is a simple one. They contend that
>the industrialised countries of the western world achieved their
>prosperity on the basis of cheap carbon-based energy; and that it is now
>the turn of the poor developing countries to emulate them. And they add
>that if there is a problem now of excessive carbon dioxide
>concentrations in the earth's atmosphere, it is the responsibility of
>those that caused it to remedy it. Nor are they unaware of the
>uncertainty of the science on the basis of which they are being asked to
>slow down their people's escape from grinding poverty.
>
>The consequences of the exclusion of the major developing countries from
>the process are immense.
>
>China alone last year embarked on a programme of building 562 large
>coal-fired power stations by 2012 - that is, a new coal-fired power
>station every five days for seven years. Putting it another way, China
>is adding the equivalent of Britain's entire power-generating capacity
>each year. Since coal-fired power stations emit roughly twice as much
>carbon dioxide per gigawatt of electricity as gas-fired ones, it is not
>surprising that it is generally accepted that within the next 20 years
>China will overtake the United States as the largest source of
>emissions. India, which like China has substantial indigenous coal
>reserves, is set to follow a similar path, as is Brazil.
>
>Then there is the cost of the Kyoto approach to consider. The logic of
>Kyoto is to make emissions permits sufficiently scarce to raise their
>price to the point where carbon-based energy is so expensive that
>carbon-free energy sources, and other carbon-saving measures, become
>fully economic. This clearly involves a very much greater rise in energy
>prices than anything we have yet seen. The trebling of oil prices since
>Kyoto was agreed in 1997 has done little to reduce carbon emissions.
>
>There must be considerable doubt whether a rise in energy prices on the
>scale required would be politically sustainable. Particularly when the
>economic cost, in terms of slower economic growth, would be substantial.
>
>In reality, if the Kyoto approach were to be pursued beyond 2012, which
>is - fortunately - unlikely, the price increase would in practice be
>mitigated in the global economy in which we now live. For as energy
>prices in Europe started to rise, with the prospect of further rises to
>come, energy-intensive industries and processes would progressively
>close down in Europe and relocate in countries like China, where
>relatively cheap energy was still available.
>
>No doubt Europe could, at some cost, adjust to this, as it has to the
>migration of most of its textile industry to China and elsewhere. But it
>is difficult to see the point of it. For if carbon dioxide emissions in
>Europe are reduced only to see them further increased in China, there is
>no net reduction in global emissions at all. The extent of ill-informed
>wishful thinking on this issue is hard to exaggerate. To take just one
>example, the government's 2003 energy White Paper proposed a 60 per cent
>reduction in the UK's carbon dioxide emissions by 2050, based on the
>notion of supplying most if not all of the country's electricity needs
>from renewable sources, notably that particularly trendy source, wind
>power.
>
>But as experienced electrical engineers have pointed out, government
>estimates of the cost of wind power are grossly understated, since wind
>power (like most renewable sources of energy) is intermittent. In other
>words, the wind doesn't blow all the time. But the electricity supply
>does have to be on tap all the time. Given the fact that electricity
>cannot be economically stored on an industrial scale, this means that
>conventional generating capacity would have to be fully maintained to
>meet demand when the wind stops blowing, thus massively adding to the
>true cost of wind power.
>
>There are all sorts of things we can do, from riding a bicycle to
>putting a windmill on our roof, that may make us feel good. But there is
>no escaping the two key truths. First, there is no way the growth in
>atmospheric carbon dioxide can be arrested without a very substantial
>rise in the cost of carbon, presumably via the imposition of a swingeing
>carbon tax, which would require, at least in the short to medium term, a
>radical change of lifestyle in the developed world. Are we seriously
>prepared to do this? (A tax would at least be preferable to the
>capricious and corrupt rationing system which half-heartedly exists
>today under Kyoto.) And the second key truth is that, even if we were
>prepared to do this, it would still be useless unless the major
>developing nations - notably China, India and Brazil - were prepared to
>do the same, which they are manifestly and understandably not.
>
>So we are driven back to the need to adapt to a warmer world, and the
>moral obligation of the richer countries to help the poorer countries to
>do so.
>
>* * *
>
>It is clear that, despite the regrettable arrogance and intolerance of
>the Royal Society, the uncertainty surrounding the complex issue of
>climate change is immense, and the scope for honest differences of view
>considerable. But uncertainty cuts both ways.
>
>While it may well be the case that, on a business as usual basis, the
>earth is highly unlikely to get as warm as the climate alarmists tell us
>it will over the next hundred years, we cannot be sure: it might.
>
>In particular, we cannot be completely sure that, at some far-off point,
>it might not warm sufficiently to trigger what the IPCC refers to as
>"large-scale singular events".
>
>The most frequently talked about such event is that it might reach a
>point where it shuts down or reverses the Gulf Stream, which keeps
>Europe's temperatures up to 8 degrees centigrade warmer than they would
>otherwise be. So global warming might paradoxically make Europe
>seriously colder.
>
>So far, of course, there is no sign of this. And according to many
>reputable oceanographers, there could never be - at least not as a
>consequence of global warming. In their understanding of the science,
>the Gulf Stream is primarily wind-driven, and thus will continue to
>exist regardless of the future temperature of the planet.
>
>But inevitably we cannot be absolutely sure; and the same applies to all
>the other much-discussed disasters.
>
>It is at this point that the so-called precautionary principle is
>invoked. Conventional cost-benefit analysis is irrelevant, it is argued.
>A climate catastrophe may be unlikely; but if it occurred the
>consequences would be so
>appalling that we must do whatever it takes, here and now, to prevent
>it. At first sight this seems a persuasive argument. But a moment's
>reflection shows its shortcomings as a guide to practical policy
>decisions.
>
>In the first place, while the prospect of catastrophic consequences from
>global warming cannot be regarded as impossible, nor can a number of
>other possible catastrophes.
>
>It is perfectly possible, for example, that over the next hundred years
>or so, the world might enter another ice age. There is ample evidence
>that this has happened at fairly regular intervals over the long history
>of the planet, and that we are overdue for another one.
>
>More immediately - and thus demanding much more urgent attention and
>priority in the expenditure of resources - there are the possible
>consequences of nuclear proliferation to worry about, not to mention the
>growth in the terrorist threat in an age when scientific and
>technological developments have brought the means of devastation within
>the reach of even modestly funded terrorist groups. Above all, in a
>world of inevitably finite resources, not only can we not possibly spend
>large sums on guarding against any and every possible eventuality in the
>future; but the more we do spend on this the less there is available to
>deal with poverty and disease in the present.
>
>Perhaps the most important application of the precautionary principle is
>to the precautionary principle itself. Otherwise we may find ourselves
>doing very stupid things in its name.
>
>As a general rule, rationality suggests that we concentrate on present
>crises, and on future ones where the probability of disaster if we do
>not act appears significant - usually because the signs of its emergence
>are already
>incontrovertible. The fact that a theoretical danger would be
>devastating is not enough to justify substantial expenditure.
>
>A modest degree of global warming clearly occurred during the last
>quarter of the 20th century, but the evidence that this will now
>accelerate to disastrous levels is, to say the least, unconvincing, for
>the reasons I have already set out. If we are going to take out an
>insurance policy against the remote risk of a warming-induced climate
>disaster then it needs to be both affordable and effective. The
>conventional front-runner, a substantial enhancement of the Kyoto
>approach of curbing carbon dioxide emissions satisfies neither of these
>requirements. It is not affordable, in the sense that the people of
>Europe - to whom Kyoto largely applies - are not prepared to make the
>sacrifices in terms of the drastic change in lifestyle required, and it
>is ineffective, since the major nations of the developing world - quite
>apart from the United States - are, for good reason, not prepared to
>join the party.
>
>The notion that if we in the UK are prepared to set an example, then the
>rest of the world will follow, is reminiscent of the old unilateralist
>CND argument that if we in the UK abandoned nuclear weapons, then the
>Soviet Union and the United States would follow suit, and just as
>far-fetched.
>
>Apart from creating the conditions most favourable to technological
>innovation, the only practicable insurance policy, on which a great deal
>of serious work has been done in the United States (a potentially
>important 'workshop' on this is to be held in San Francisco later this
>month), concerns what has become known as geo-engineering: taking active
>action to cool the planet, in relatively short order, should the need
>become pressing.
>
>The front runner here is the idea of blasting aerosols into the
>stratosphere, so as to impede the sun's rays. Such grand schemes
>obviously need to be approached with caution; but it is striking that
>they have gained the support of scientists of the eminence of the Nobel
>Prize-winner Paul Crutzen. Another possibility may be the
>geo-engineering of clouds, which play such a large part - far greater
>than carbon dioxide - in determining the earth's climate. The insurance
>policy is to spend government money on further research into
>geo-engineering, and on developing the capability (where this does not
>already exist) to put it into practice should the need arise.
>
>* * *
>
>Essentially, I have sought to argue three key propositions.
>
>First, the relatively new and highly complex science of climatology is
>an uncertain one, and neither scientists nor politicians serve either
>the truth or the people by pretending to know more than they do.
>
>Second, far and away the most rational response to such climate change
>as, for any reason, may occur, is to adapt to it.
>
>And third, the rich countries of the temperate world have an obligation
>to assist the poor countries of the tropical world to undertake whatever
>adaptation may be needed.
>
>It is not difficult to understand, however, the appeal of the
>conventional climate change wisdom. Throughout the ages something deep
>in man's psyche has made him receptive to apocalyptic warnings: "the end
>of the world is nigh". Almost of all us are imbued with a sense of guilt
>and a sense of sin, and it is so much less uncomfortable to divert our
>attention away from our individual sins and causes of guilt, arising
>from how we have treated our neighbours, and to sublimate it in
>collective guilt and collective sin.
>
>Throughout the ages, too, the weather has been an important part of the
>narrative. In primitive societies it was customary for extreme weather
>events to be explained as punishment from the gods for the sins of the
>people; and there is no shortage of examples of this theme in the Bible,
>either - particularly but not exclusively in the Old Testament.
>
>The main change is that the new priests are scientists (well rewarded
>with research grants for their pains) rather than clerics of the
>established religions, and the new religion is eco-fundamentalism. But
>it is a distinction without much of a difference. And the old religions
>have not been slow to make common cause. Does all this matter? Up to a
>point, no. Unbelievers should not be dismissive of the comfort that
>religion can bring. If people feel better when they buy a hybrid car and
>see a few windmills dotted about (although perhaps not in their own back
>yard), then so be it. And in a democracy, if greenery is what the people
>want, politicians will understandably provide it, dressed in the most
>high-flown rhetoric they can muster.
>
>Indeed, if people are happy to pay a carbon tax, provided it is not at
>too high a level, and the proceeds are used to cut income tax, that
>would not be a disaster, either. It would have to be a consumer-based
>tax, however, since in the globalised world economy industry is highly
>mobile, whereas individuals are much less so.
>
>But the new religion of eco-fundamentalism does present dangers on at
>least three levels.
>
>The first is that the governments of Europe, fired in many cases by
>anti-Americanism (never underestimate the extent to which distaste for
>President Bush has fuelled the anti-global warming movement), may get so
>carried away by their rhetoric as to impose measures which do serious
>harm to their economies. That is a particular danger at the present time
>in this country. No doubt, when the people come to suffer the results
>they will insist on a change of policy, or else vote the offending
>government out of office. But it would be better to avoid the damage in
>the first place.
>
>The second, and more fundamental, danger is that the global Salvationist
>movement is profoundly hostile to capitalism and the market economy.
>There are already increasing calls for green protectionism - for the
>imposition of trade restrictions against those countries which fail to
>agree to curb their carbon dioxide emissions. Given the fact that the
>only way in which the world's poor will ever be able to escape from
>their poverty is by embracing capitalism and the global market economy,
>this is not good news.
>
>But the third danger is even more profound. Today we are very conscious
>of the threat we face from the supreme intolerance of Islamic
>fundamentalism. It could not be a worse time to abandon our own
>traditions of reason and tolerance, and to embrace instead the
>irrationality and intolerance of ecofundamentalism, where reasoned
>questioning of its mantras is regarded as a form of blasphemy. There is
>no greater threat to the people of this planet than the retreat from
>reason we see all around us today.
>
>
>----------------
>CCNet is a scholarly electronic network edited by Benny Peiser. To
>subscribe, send an e-mail to listserver@livjm.ac.uk ("subscribe
>cambridge-conference"). Information circulated on this network is for
>scholarly and educational use only. The attached information may not be
>copied or reproduced for any other purposes without prior permission of
>the copyright holders. DISCLAIMER: The opinions, beliefs and viewpoints
>expressed in the articles and texts and in other CCNet contributions do
>not necessarily reflect the opinions, beliefs and viewpoints of the
>editor. http://www.staff.livjm.ac.uk/spsbpeis/
>

He points out that developed nations have an obligation to help undeveloped nations with their flooding problems, since, if global warming is indeed caused by us, we have exacerbated their problems. What he does not point out is that until that is proven, we have no obligation to help them. That is to say, we can help them, out of our sense of charity, but that we are not morally obliged.
 
A good read below.

A good read indeed. That seems to be very fair and level headed. I don't see any sky is falling in there. A good point to reiterate is that we will adapt to whatever might happen along the way. From the deserts of africa to the tundra of alaska we will figure out how to servive in any condition.
 

Latest Posts

Back