Danoff
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I'd like to see you establish that.
Global Warming/Climate Change Discussion Thread
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I'd like to see you establish that.
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Here's a modern example of cycles. The "dust bowl" of the 30's I believe. Nobody could grow a crop through the midsection of the U.S. Was that global warming? I'm thinking that the use of fossil fuels didn't cause that! We some times need to pick up our heads out of the book and look at what you see...not what trying to create.
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Where are you looking?? Do you seriously think it is 'good common sense' that the human race has only been keeping reliable records of global temperature variation since after the 1970's?? As a point of fact, reliable records have been kept since atleast the mid 19th Century - temperature data has also been collected since atleast the 17th Century to boot.
Anyway, this is largely irrelevant, since modern research and methods provide a bang-up-to-date method of accurately assessing what global climate conditions were like in the past (for example, the analysis of gas bubbles trapped in ice sheets - this provides a real measure of atmospheric conditions from previous times).
The WMO (the UN organisation concerned with global climate change) is of the opinion that the mean global temperature increase since 1976 is unprecedented. There is no doubt about the fact that the temperature increase has happened. There is also no doubt that the rate of temperature increase is unprecedented either. The only doubt is in establishing the cause... Yes, cosmic rays may well also contribute to this unprecedented rate of temperature increase too, but the evidence that shows that atmospheric CO2 levels are at their highest for 650,000 years also strongly suggests that CO2 emissions are also (likely to be) playing a role - however significant it may turn out to be.
Danoff
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Not that you've established that the rate is unprecedented, but even if it were, it doesn't follow then that it isn't part of a cyclical climate change. I know that it might seem that way, but it really doesn't follow.
I'm not saying that it can't be caused by something else, I'm just saying that nobody has established that it is not natural (even cyclical).
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All I would say is that all global climate change, up until the industrial revolution, was 'natural'... and that natural background change will always be with us and needs to be taken into account. But never before has the 'total global climate change' ever been dependent upon anything other than 'natural' causes.... however, now it is. Human activity can (whether or not it actually does) affect global climate. In other words, we now must incorporate this additional influence upon global climate change... to say that human activity has no effect is highly debatable (and arguably (ultimately) has to be wrong - we do have some influence.... we just don't know exactly how much...) The point being, however, that our influence must be a consideration, and not merely disregarded as totally insignificant...
The pattern of global climate change can (and is increasingly being) deciphered from scientific evidence available to us.... the mean temperature increase over the past century, in itself, is not unprecedented... however, the rate of temperature increase since the mid 1970's is.... the concentration of CO2 (and other greenhouse gases) in the atmosphere is now much higher than at any other point in human civilisation, and it just so happens to coincide with an unprecedented (again, in the context of human influence) level of global warming... and I don't believe in coincidences.
Danoff
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I don't disagree with any of what you just wrote except the very last bit about coincidences.
How can you not believe in coincidences? They happen all the time.
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Yeh, I shouldn't have said that... what I should have said is that I don't believe that the correlation between global warming patterns and human activity is a coincidence... I should have said "I don't believe it is a coincidence".... glad you agree with the rest of it though, since it was meant as a general statement 👍
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Probably not, but measurements that are being made now tell us what climate conditions were like in the past. Although, sea and air temperatures have been being measured and recorded for a long time. The US Navy has also conducted routine measurements of polar ice cap thickness for many years (specifically related to submarine exercises that they carry out in the region...)
The analysis of gas bubbles trapped in Arctic ice is analogous to ancient (extinct) insects trapped in amber - they provide a "window into the past", but it is only now with modern analytical techniques that it is becoming possible to extract useful information from these sources.
Funny you should mention ozone levels, though, since this is a good example of what can happen when a concerted effort is made to tackle a man-made problem... after observing the evidence - that the ozone layer was thinning in polar regions - and establishing the (main) cause (the presence in the upper atmosphere of CFC's, artificial (man-made) chemicals that were being used in aerosols, polystyrene and fridge coolants), the international community decided to act by banning the widespread use of CFC's. The result has been that the thinning of the ozone layer has slowed down markedly... (link)
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100 min of badly miked proffessional tuttuting that can be easily dismissed by a gif from junksciencedotcom.
It is argued by the above two proffessors from their respective fields that CFCs were actionable because there would be no direct adjustment from 'development' sectors such as Energy, Transportation & Land Use all of which CO2 curbing clashes w/ head on . This goes for developing nations as well as highly-developed ones who wish to sustain & develop their infrastructures along market lines.
The issue as presented is the quality of action being already taken (kyoto etc.) in terms of economics & meteorlogy & how to cut Deals using a Pillared framework in the present
climate
It is argued by the above two proffessors from their respective fields that CFCs were actionable because there would be no direct adjustment from 'development' sectors such as Energy, Transportation & Land Use all of which CO2 curbing clashes w/ head on . This goes for developing nations as well as highly-developed ones who wish to sustain & develop their infrastructures along market lines.
The issue as presented is the quality of action being already taken (kyoto etc.) in terms of economics & meteorlogy & how to cut Deals using a Pillared framework in the present
climate
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- 87,582
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
Correct. Though it has got thinner at a slower rate than before.
And that was... what?
03R1
Grab the paper and read it for yourself. Hell, replicate it for yourself - the paper will give you details on all of the materials needed and methods used. Anyone can replicate science for themselves.
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Alright alright....I zero specific knowledge to back up any of the statements I have made. I am a product of the mass media and can only come to my own conclusions to those headlines. I just have my opinions and like to challange the thoughts and thought process of others. If you have the cold hard facts, I bow down to you. The earth IS getting warmer and we are to blame.
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Maybe.
Maybe.
That's the thing with this one. There really isn't any consensus - though the pro-Anthropogenic-Climate-Change side will repeatedly tell you there is. We just aren't sure. Some data seems to back it up (and a lot of this doesn't bear close scrutiny) and some data seems to contradict it (and a lot of this is dismissed as American/corporate/oil company propaganda - who, as we all know, would burn the planet down to make a couple of nickels). But the sum total of our knowledge says "We just don't know. Yet."
You're a little wide of the mark with CFCs though.
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Its astonishing how much the world has changed. Just half of the western shelf of anartica and half of greenland melting brings the water level up by 20 feet!! Seeing how that would change the world is horrific. Billions will die because of rising water levels. Holland will be gone, half of india wiped out, bejing being underwater, etc.
It really gives you a different perception on what you think about global warming. Cutting down on what we use, using fuel efficient cars, energy efficient appliences, and different sources of energy like wind, solar and hydro can cut the amount of CO2 released down to 0%. Just one small change can make a difference, but only if it happens worldwide. We as one should look after our planet, our home for future generations. If we dont, we're in big trouble
You should really go see 'An Inconvinent Truth'. Its a brilliant film, and should definately be seen.
It really gives you a different perception on what you think about global warming. Cutting down on what we use, using fuel efficient cars, energy efficient appliences, and different sources of energy like wind, solar and hydro can cut the amount of CO2 released down to 0%. Just one small change can make a difference, but only if it happens worldwide. We as one should look after our planet, our home for future generations. If we dont, we're in big trouble
You should really go see 'An Inconvinent Truth'. Its a brilliant film, and should definately be seen.
Danoff
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That's what I keep saying, but instead we get posts like this one:
GJB93
Is that all? Half of the western shelf of antarctica nd half of greenland? I'm willing to bet antarctica makes up the biggest portion of those two... but I wouldn't worry about antarctica, it's actually taking on ice. It has a net positive accumulation of ice.
http://www.worldclimatereport.com/index.php/2006/10/11/antarctic-ice-sheet-and-the-plot-thickens/
Greenland used to be green (that's why it's called greenland). It was green before and it wasn't our fault, that means it could be green again and we might not have anything to do with it.
Is global warming caused by the sun? Whether it's heating or cosmic rays, there isn't much we can do about it. Is it caused by the earth's orbit or natural climate cycles? If so, there probably isn't much we can do about it.
These are important questions to answer before we go spouting off about driving hybrid cars (which is ridiculous by the way, cars are a minor source of C02).
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http://www.climatecare.org/
Interesting site.
Oh, and this one
http://www.climatecrisis.net/
Quote from site: Global sea levels could rise by more than 20 feet with the loss of shelf ice in Greenland and Antarctica, devastating coastal areas worldwide.
Interesting site.
Oh, and this one
http://www.climatecrisis.net/
Quote from site: Global sea levels could rise by more than 20 feet with the loss of shelf ice in Greenland and Antarctica, devastating coastal areas worldwide.
Danoff
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Really? Wow? I guess I'd better go out a buy a hybrid then huh?
Look, I didn't refute that. What I said was that it ain't happening. Bad things would happen if South America suddenly lifted up into the air and smashed down on top of North America too, but that's not going to happen either.
Antarctica is TAKING ON MASS as in GROWING. So why are you worrying about the western shelf losing half of its mass?
Danoff
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Yes, it was the first thing on your list.
GJB93
I understand that you're using what you heard in the film. What I'm asking you is why you're concerned about what you heard in the film? I agree, if Antarctica melted it would be bad. But it's not melting (net) so I'm not worried. Antarctica is in the process of LOWERING the sea level. So why does it bother you if Al Gore talks about what might happen if Antarctica suddenly started melting (a lot)?
GJB93
...and now we're discussing it. That's what we do here.
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What do you think this forum is about? This is a serious question. I don't understand people that get bothered by people disagreeing or questioning their claims.
This isn't a place where you state your opinion and that's the end of it. That place would be pretty worthless. If you want to maybe learn something or put your opinions to the test, I suggest you stay.
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