Gran Turismo 6 vs Gran Turismo 5: Visual Damage Comparison

[LightningLord]

Honestly, the damage model in both games isn't that great. Sure, GT5 had more deformation and pieces of the car hanging off, like bumpers, etc., which is nice, but it didn't seem right. Scuffs and scratches didn't appear on cars properly. Some cars deformed unnaturally. GT6 on the other hand got scuffs and scratches better. But vehicle deformation was decreased. Now the cars look like they sat in a hail storm when they really got out of a 5 vehicle crash. And it doesn't help that the car damage is incredibly minor in both games. Windshields and windows never crack, shatter, break, or fall out of place. Pieces of the car never come off. Tires/tyres never get punctured. The interiors of cars don't receive any damage. Wheels don't cave into the cars. Spoilers/wings don't come off. Lights don't break. Fluids don't leak from cars. I can go on and on about how the damage model isn't good. I understand that the Gran Turismo isn't going for realistic vehicle damage, but in reality, when you drive a car into a wall going 120 MPH/193 Km/h, the car would get completely destroyed. Mechanical parts would be reduced to rubble. Windows turn into fragments smaller than sand pebbles. And don't get me started on what would happen to the driver and occupants. It would sound like a bomb went off. Whereas in GT6, all that happens is some dents and scratches. The impacts sound like lights bumps. Completely realistic damage might not be possible in the Gran Turismo series, but come on. Running into a wall at high speed should not result into what's in GT6.

 

[eran0004]

Completely realistic damage might not be possible in the Gran Turismo series, but come on. Running into a wall at high speed should not result into what's in GT6.

That kind of damage might not be possible at all in any game.

 

[NixxxoN]

To get even more realistic, if you hit a wall at 300+ km/h, the driver (you) should die, the driver's game career would be over, therefore you should start a new game file from scratch.

 

[Pseudopod]

No, starting a new game file from scratch is unrealistic. You actually have to stop playing games forever.

So naturally, everyone who asks for a more realistic damage model are in fact asking for this.

 

[LightningLord]

That kind of damage might not be possible at all in any game.

I get that, but it doesn't change the fact that damaged cars in GT6 look like they've been in a hailstorm rather than an actual crash.

 

[Johnnypenso]

That kind of damage might not be possible at all in any game.

It's possible, the question is at what resource cost and of course, how much do the customer base of the particular game care about it?

To get even more realistic, if you hit a wall at 300+ km/h, the driver (you) should die, the driver's game career would be over, therefore you should start a new game file from scratch.

Yes, because if one wants a more realistic model in a video game, we must take it to real life extremes otherwise that person is a hypocrite right?

/sarcasm

 

[NixxxoN]

It's possible, the question is at what resource cost and of course, how much do the customer base of the particular game care about it?


Yes, because if one wants a more realistic model in a video game, we must take it to real life extremes otherwise that person is a hypocrite right?

/sarcasm

hypocrite? sarcasm? Wtf did I just read.

 

[alexnipi]

do you mind if i added these screenshots to the OP? I will mention you in the credits.

Is ok 👍

 

[Quakebass]

Solid damage models existed near the middle of the PS3's life with Burnout Paradise and GRiD, and now Beam NG and Wreckfest on cutting-edge hardware have taken it to near-real levels. So realistic damage is certainly possible, and has been. The kind of stuff in Wreckfest and Beam NG likely won't work with GT at this moment because of the differences and experimental nature in assets/modeling methods that they use (soft body and beams etc.), but really, it isn't unrealistic to expect at least a basic and cleanly-functioning damage model. Forza has had several hundred (perhaps even close to 1000) cars in it's games across the 4th and 5th iterations of their simulator games, and unlike GT, all of them are high-poly and high-res. GT currently has a little over 400 premiums, and Forza 4 had more than 500, and then a couple hundred more through DLC, and a solid damage model with deformable bodies and detachable parts for every one of them. So @NixxxoN, it's definitely possible to implement on 1000 cars.

It doesn't even need to be as extensive as Forza. I'd be fine with the current scratch/racing wear system in GT6, some basic panel warp, and then allowing most components (bumpers, hoods, spoilers, etc.) to detach. I think GT5's matrixes were quite a bit rushed and allowed too many odd results, but overall the underlying core was a reasonably solid deformation model, just poorly utilized.

I don't see why these arguments on simulators always turn into all-or-nothing scenarios. It always turns into "oh, if you want it so realistic, maybe we should have the 12 hour plane flights to locations, you actually die when you crash", etc. The simulator should just accurately depict what would happen to the subject in question (in this case, cars and racing) in reality based on the inputs you give. Then, since it's a game, you're free to do whatever you want, because you don't have the normal repercussions of reality. Anything from taking a corner extra aggressively since you don't have to fear the normal consequences of over-doing it, mixing race classes that are uncustomary or (perhaps sometimes even illegal), to racing a car (or several) set up specifically to tip over under the slightest input of acceleration, braking, or steering, purely for entertainment. The stuff that exists in reality should all be there, but because it's a game, it should allow you to screw around on your own free time if you wish.

If someone is being an idiot, you have the power to kick them from your online space. The fact is, with more things open for you to do, the larger and more diverse the crowd you'll be able to reach and pull in, and the more creative the community can become. And, as this is a simulator game at the core, more people will be exposed to the simulator community, which could allow this sub-community of the racing genre to grow. The "audience-grabbing" isn't all purely down to the damage model, but it's certainly a major component to any racing game, simulators included.

 

[another_jakhole]

Finally found the damn thing. Here you can hear Kaz saying they MIGHT implement damage with better hardware.

Obviously this is super old but y'know - for the record. (or archive)

3:00 for damage part

https://archive.org/details/kaz-yamauchi-interview

This is worth the repost. It's interesting. The whole interview is more than just about the damage.

@Quakebass
The interview provides some credibility to your last post, actually (in some areas).

 

[NixxxoN]

@Quakebass Forza developers massively outsource their modelers so they can go faster and cheaper, yet its one of the most expensive game series ever if you count all the paid DLC. If you like paying so much money for a clearly more arcade game than GT, then you could buy an XbOne and forza games.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Solid damage models existed near the middle of the PS3's life with Burnout Paradise and GRiD, and now Beam NG and Wreckfest on cutting-edge hardware have taken it to near-real levels. So realistic damage is certainly possible, and has been. The kind of stuff in Wreckfest and Beam NG likely won't work with GT at this moment because of the differences and experimental nature in assets/modeling methods that they use (soft body and beams etc.), but really, it isn't unrealistic to expect at least a basic and cleanly-functioning damage model. Forza has had several hundred (perhaps even close to 1000) cars in it's games across the 4th and 5th iterations of their simulator games, and unlike GT, all of them are high-poly and high-res. GT currently has a little over 400 premiums, and Forza 4 had more than 500, and then a couple hundred more through DLC, and a solid damage model with deformable bodies and detachable parts for every one of them. So @NixxxoN, it's definitely possible to implement on 1000 cars.

It doesn't even need to be as extensive as Forza. I'd be fine with the current scratch/racing wear system in GT6, some basic panel warp, and then allowing most components (bumpers, hoods, spoilers, etc.) to detach. I think GT5's matrixes were quite a bit rushed and allowed too many odd results, but overall the underlying core was a reasonably solid deformation model, just poorly utilized.

I don't see why these arguments on simulators always turn into all-or-nothing scenarios. It always turns into "oh, if you want it so realistic, maybe we should have the 12 hour plane flights to locations, you actually die when you crash", etc. The simulator should just accurately depict what would happen to the subject in question (in this case, cars and racing) in reality based on the inputs you give. Then, since it's a game, you're free to do whatever you want, because you don't have the normal repercussions of reality. Anything from taking a corner extra aggressively since you don't have to fear the normal consequences of over-doing it, mixing race classes that are uncustomary or (perhaps sometimes even illegal), to racing a car (or several) set up specifically to tip over under the slightest input of acceleration, braking, or steering, purely for entertainment. The stuff that exists in reality should all be there, but because it's a game, it should allow you to screw around on your own free time if you wish.

If someone is being an idiot, you have the power to kick them from your online space. The fact is, with more things open for you to do, the larger and more diverse the crowd you'll be able to reach and pull in, and the more creative the community can become. And, as this is a simulator game at the core, more people will be exposed to the simulator community, which could allow this sub-community of the racing genre to grow. The "audience-grabbing" isn't all purely down to the damage model, but it's certainly a major component to any racing game, simulators included.

Would be disappointed if GT goes to Forza's poor visual damage system, will be a step back if anything in my opinion.

 

[ParkerMO125]

I've said it a lot of times and I'll say it again: visual car damage is something that only rubbish drivers care about.

Exactly. Because non-rubbish drivers who want non-rubbish visual damage on their video game do not exist.

I don't exist

 

[Pseudopod]

@Quakebass Forza developers massively outsource their modelers so they can go faster and cheaper, yet its one of the most expensive game series ever if you count all the paid DLC. If you like paying so much money for a clearly more arcade game than GT, then you could buy an XbOne and forza games.

Why can't PD outsource their car modelling? This is what i mean by it being the developer's problem, not the end user's problem.

I'd gladly take 500 premiums in GT7 and 300 more as paid DLC over the years.

 

[Johnnypenso]

@Quakebass Forza developers massively outsource their modelers so they can go faster and cheaper, yet its one of the most expensive game series ever if you count all the paid DLC. If you like paying so much money for a clearly more arcade game than GT, then you could buy an XbOne and forza games.

"Faster and cheaper". We know it's faster because they release a game every two years and their modeling output is far superior to PD. But cheaper? Do you have some proof of that? And on what do you base this, "clearly more arcade than GT" claim?

Exactly. Because non-rubbish drivers who want non-rubbish visual damage on their video game do not exist.

I don't exist

Sorry to hear that you don't exist. R.I.P.

 

[sparkytooth]

I'd prefer PD to look towards GT5's damage model and expand upon it for GT7, I had so much fun mashing my cars into different shapes with barriers back then.

 

[Quakebass]

@Quakebass Forza developers massively outsource their modelers so they can go faster and cheaper, yet its one of the most expensive game series ever if you count all the paid DLC. If you like paying so much money for a clearly more arcade game than GT, then you could buy an XbOne and forza games.

That is true, but there's currently 400+ premiums and a total of 1200+ vehicle assets being used. Damage (in the form of the 3D mesh deforming) was once present on the first selection of ~1000 cars from GT5. The point I was making was that across the span of about 5-6 years (development and life cycle of GT5, and dev/life cycle of FM4+5), both teams were able to produce a damage model on a huge amount of cars, and it is possible for them to create a model that works for all of their assets. It's irrelevant that they made us pay extra money to get the other ~200 cars, the fact is is that they built them all in a similar amount of time.

Would be disappointed if GT goes to Forza's poor visual damage system, will be a step back if anything in my opinion.

That's why I said that I'd be fine with the current scratch/racing wear system that exists in GT6, then adding some basic panel warp, and then allowing most components (bumpers, hoods, spoilers, etc.) to detach. The warps would be similar to GT5's but optimized, and wouldn't allow weird poly jaggies and unrealistic bends and stretches (If those are the right terms for 3D modeling...). Forza's isn't perfect but it has plenty of advantages over GT's, in my mind I was taking the advantages of both.

 

[GranTurismo guy]

It will be nice when this level of damage makes it's way into a driving sim

 

[Pseudopod]

Even half as good as that would be a great addition to what we have in current racing sims.

 

[c172fccc]

It's possible, the question is at what resource cost and of course, how much do the customer base of the particular game care about it?

It is probably impossible. Why? Well, because car makers would not allowed that kind of damages to their cars, particularly not in a "sim". (and it seems that car makers are more and more strict about this as the years goes by)

Sorry.

(That only affect games with licensed cars)

 

[rixtar]

It is probably impossible. Why? Well, because car makers would not allowed that kind of damages to their cars, particularly not in a "sim". (and it seems that car makers are more and more strict about this as the years goes by)

Sorry.

(That only affect games with licensed cars)

I read somewhere that manufacturers aren't that concerned about damage being represented but that they are concerned about showing crashes where people would be killed by the damage.

 

[eran0004]

It's possible, the question is at what resource cost and of course, how much do the customer base of the particular game care about it?

That's still not realistic. The car would burst into flames and the driver would be killed. Game over.

I get that, but it doesn't change the fact that damaged cars in GT6 look like they've been in a hailstorm rather than an actual crash.

Actual crashes are horrible events, I'm not so sure I even want damage to be realistic. I do agree that for lighter bumps and smaller crashes it would be good to have damage to the body panels, but that's about as far as I would stretch it.

 

[Johnnypenso]

It is probably impossible. Why? Well, because car makers would not allowed that kind of damages to their cars, particularly not in a "sim". (and it seems that car makers are more and more strict about this as the years goes by)

Sorry.

(That only affect games with licensed cars)

Nope. 5:40 "Urban Myth"

That's still not realistic. The car would burst into flames and the driver would be killed. Game over.

Nope.

 

[c172fccc]

I read somewhere that manufacturers aren't that concerned about damage being represented

Some are for sure.

Nope. 5:40 "Urban Myth"

It isn't a myth, trust me. (Source: WMDPortal)

 

[Johnnypenso]

Some are for sure.
It isn't a myth, trust me. (Source: WMDPortal)

That interview is Stefano Casillo, the developer of Assetto Corsa. They have Ferrari, Lotus, Lamborghini, BMW, Alfa Romeo, Mercedes and more, and he's telling you there are no restrictions on damaging the cars, only showing blood and guts and damage to virtual drivers. So unless you can find something in writing or a dev interview that says different or show that somehow a tiny developer like Assetto Corsa got an exception to the rule from some of the biggest manufacturers in the world, yeah, it's an urban myth.

 

[c172fccc]

That interview is Stefano Casillo, the developer of Assetto Corsa. They have Ferrari, Lotus, Lamborghini, BMW, Alfa Romeo, Mercedes and more, and he's telling you there are no restrictions on damaging the cars, only showing blood and guts and damage to virtual drivers.

I know that. I don't know why he said that there is no restrictions, but it isn't true.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I know that. I don't know why he said that there is no restrictions, but it isn't true.

Because it is true. Provide a link from a dev and we'll discuss it.

 

[c172fccc]

Because it is true. Provide a link from a dev and we'll discuss it.

I could give you the link, but you're not a WMDMember, so it is a bit pointless for me to find the post.
And I refuse to quote any post that comes from that forum, I don't know if I'm allowed to.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I could give you the link, but you're not a WMDMember, so it is a bit pointless for me to find the post.
And I refuse to quote any post that comes from that forum, I don't know if I'm allowed to.

No you're not supposed to do that.

 

[c172fccc]

No you're not supposed to do that.

Yeah, I don't want to risk it. BTW, I've found the post.