Gran Turismo 7 Confirmed to also launch on PlayStation 4, is a cross-gen title

[Adam41]

I would like PD to release it on the PS5 only and take full advantage of the hardware and not spend any second of their development time downscaling graphics or anything like that for a base PS4, especially knowing the rate at which PD release their games. The quadrupling of the consumer base argument will become less relevant the closer we get to the 2022 release date.

When I first read about the delay, I thought it was purely because of the PS5 shortage. GT sells consoles, they can't manufacture PS5s quick enough at the minute to meet demand, so delay the game and give PD an extra year development time. Now that the cross-gen suggestion has surfaced, I'm thinking whether that could be another reason why they'd choose to delay the game.



Regarding reductions of or lack of improvement in performance, graphics, physics etc for the weaker consoles, could we have already witnessed this with the GT Sport and the PS4?

I've only just thought about this whilst reading this thread, but nearly 2 years ago to the day we saw our first glimpse of rain in GT Sport on the Red Bull Ring at the Nurburgring WT and 2 months later it was released in an update. But a month before that update, they updated the physics engine which in my opinion, and plenty will agree, dumbed down the physics and introduced chronic understeer.

Is this the type of compromise to be made so we can enjoy the benefits of rain or dynamic TOD? Were they already thinking about developing things like rain on the PS4 in 2019 (with cross gen in mind) or was this simply to introduce new content? We know they'd only been developing rain for a handful of months before it was introduced which is maybe why we don't have a properly simulated wet racing line but it could be because they only have so much CPU power to play with.

Of course I'm just giving food for thought. I think the graphics on a PS4 Pro in upscaled 4k look great and for GT7 I would happily take 4k60 and a good step up in physics again like from GT6 to GT Sport. But I don't think we'll get that improvement in physics if PD are working to the constraints of the PS4 and potentially trying to introduce other features which will only make matters worse. Hence, I voted "Yes I am disappointed".

 

[astrarobotica]

Which isn't PS4-5 or XB1-S.

PD is a PlayStation Studios developer. More than anyone else outside the brand, it's bound to PlayStation's rules.

If it was allowed, I'm sure we'd have seen someone doing it by now. That we haven't doesn't say that it's a hard rule, but it makes it less likely that it isn't.

What difference does it make if it's the last generation jump or this one?

You can't use imaginary PlayStation rules to prove your point. Look, I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right; neither of us really have any actual information to indicate what either version of the game will be like. It just seems silly to me to be so certain both versions will have parity among features. Sony wasn't holding them to any standard when their flagship racing game's car roster was mostly made up of PS2-era models. But if they are holding them to a high standard, I don't see why they would rather have PD hold back features on their brand new console just because the old one can't handle them.

Do we even know for sure that this game is coming out on PS4? The Hermen Hulst quote doesn't even sound definitive to me:

Where it makes sense....we'll continue looking at that.

I know Push Square supposedly confirmed it will be cross-gen, but they don't even provide a quote. Has GTPlanet independently confirmed it?

Even if that currently is the plan,
any delays in release will make a last-gen version make even less sense. It's not uncommon for specific console versions of games to get canceled altogether, remember when Project Cars was supposed to come out on Wii U?

 

[O604]

I've said it before and I believe it more now, PS has enough customers to make a PS4 game, a PS5 game and 1 for all the people who complain about GT.

I swear I've never seen other products with so many comments like, "I won't be buying this, here's my opinion." Everyone is entitled to an opinion. It's just a strange love/hate combo I don't see elsewhere.

 

[Scaff]

Why you have to be so technical?

Well to be fair you did state that GT titles need to hit 60fps, pointing out that across the series that's actually not been the norm is simply being accurate.

Since GT5 prologue, the aim has always been 60fps. Sure it’s not always a perfectly locked 60fps, but that’s the standard now.

Now it is, and on the PS2 it was, however on the PS3 it was a long way from being locked at 60fps.

My whole point is that they probably won’t settle for 30fps under normal condition. If anything Kaz mentioned crazy fps like 240fps.

Even PS5/PS4 cross gen games in “performance” mode sometimes struggle to lock at 60fps, under heavy load, but that doesn’t mean they’re not attempting to run at 60fps.

I agree totally, hence why I picked up on the 'need' part of your comment. They may attempt to do it, but clearly they don't actually 'need' to do it to be a GT title. As such frame rate variation on a PS4 GT7 title may well be a sacrifice PD see as worth making.

 

[Whistle Snap]

Somebody asked about the cpu usage with GT Sport earlier. I've just discovered the PS4 has a homebrew plugin to monitor the system.

https://github.com/OSM-Made/Orbis-Toolbox/releases

So, from limited running with full grid race and time trial:

Core 1 - 4 don't go above 80%
Core 5 doesn't go above 90%
Core 6 doesn't go above 80%
Core 7 - 8 don't go above 65%

Assetto Corsa Competizione during full grid race at Spa.

Core 1 - 6 constantly in the 90 - 98 % range
Core 7 doesn't go above 65%
Core 8 doesn't go above 45%

 

[karelpipa]

Shouldnt GT7 have been a seller of the new PS5?
If thats true, making it cross gen would only make sense if Sony knows that PS5 HW will not be easily available well into 2022 or even 2023. /conspiracy theory ends here

 

[astrarobotica]

Shouldnt GT7 have been a seller of the new PS5?
If thats true, making it cross gen would only make sense if Sony knows that PS5 HW will not be easily available well into 2022 or even 2023. /conspiracy theory ends here

I don't think that's even an unlikely theory, if GT7 itself isn't still a couple years away...

 

[Scaff]

You can't use imaginary PlayStation rules to prove your point. Look, I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right; neither of us really have any actual information to indicate what either version of the game will be like. It just seems silly to me to be so certain both versions will have parity among features. Sony wasn't holding them to any standard when their flagship racing game's car roster was mostly made up of PS2-era models. But if they are holding them to a high standard, I don't see why they would rather have PD hold back features on their brand new console just because the old one can't handle them.

We do however have an indirect rule that gives us a look into Sony's mindset with regard to this, and that's the PS4 and PS4 Pro. Titles had to have parity of content and features on the two platforms, and we saw exactly that in action. It's arguable that the pro could have allowed the likes of GTS to have more VR content, ToD, etc. yet such features never saw the light of day. Not for GTS, or for that matter any other title! What we got was simply high res and higher framerates, nothing more, and that was mirrored on the other side of the console fence with MS.

This parity of features across platforms is also one shared by MS with the XBox, and as such I strongly suspect it has a lot to do with the legal implications of selling a product under the same name across different platforms with different features.

As such I have zero expectations of a PS5 version of GT7 having features above and beyond those of a PS4 version.

If that is a PS4 version does see the light of day, as the articles GTP have put out make clear, this is unclear based on what Sony have said so far. They certainly have strongly suggested it may be the case, but have, to date, declined to confirm or clarify it.

 

[Nowax]

I've never hated the PS4 so much on my entire life.

 

[CTznOfTime]

This doesn't actually surprise me nor disappoint me. I have always had a suspicion that GT7 was originally meant to be a PS4 title, but then somebody at Sony said lets retrofit the game for PS5 too. Which is one of the reasons that led to the delay.

What surprises me is that so many here expect(ed) the game to be more than just a GT Sport update when all the gameplay that's been revealed clearly is using GTS assets and engine. The content that was new in the trailer was likely originally going to be put into GTS but then withheld from it to be a selling point for the new title.

I sort of have the same view points as you.

I think a lot of people here forget too easily:

Based on "2020" after the facts observations:

1) we all have been waiting and bought our PS4 (me including) in hope to get the full blown GT experience..
Sadly we only get GTS as a place holder.

2) I most likely and very much suspect that was also the expectations by both Sony, and PD and Kaz. In other words, PD has been working on a full blown GT to be released on the PS4, but the technical challenge is so great and Kaz being Kaz, had lofty goals about it...

3) because of the reasons in 2) It took them so long that Sony told PD to release something for the hungry mob, Thus came out GTS. (See point 1 above).

4) in the meantime, PD resources was starting to divide because, Kaz probably still had, with the blessing of Sony, to release at some point the much anticipated full blown GT game for PS4, AND at the same time, Sony was probably pushing Kaz to look ahead and start also working on another full blown new GT game for the Not yet revealed PS5, on top of supporting the just released GTS, on top of all other extra activity that Kaz is involved with (PR and GTS events) and on top of working in secret in putting the technical requirements of the next gen console PS5 together.

5) after a while, once PD and Kaz are stretched so thin, and they realized the complexity of working in the scenario as described above in 4), Sony and Kaz decided to change plans entirely: to scratch making a full blown GT on PS4 and fully focus on the next gen PS5.
This decision wasted their previous effort and now is adding more delays to release the next GT title, and playing with our expectations. I would say this is around the 2018 and 2019 timelime.

6) As the teams at PD are slowly ramping down the GTS support and getting fully onboard with producing the next gen console full blown GT for the PS5 to end all expectations, we the hungry crowd were slowly working to shift our expectations, and we all hugged ourselves in consolations both: for having a crappy half baked GTS and for yet another delayed full blown GT game, and the bittersweet news, worst, yet rewarding, that the next game will be pushing the limits of the next console.

7) covid happened.
But fortunately Sony had planned to support production of the PS5 to a level never seen before, resulting in the best first year sale of their console ever!!!

8) covid still happening.
Unfortunately, people have been stuck in their home for so long, it is pushing absolutely everyone to want the PS5, and so despite the success in step 7), Sony is still not able to satisfy this unprecedented level of demand for this PS5 console. This is currently not helping with the chip shortage.

9) actual timelime:
It would seem Sony is now pushing for PD and Kaz to back pedal and work to make the Full Blown GT game that is intended for the PS5, and to fit most of it into the PS4 also.
This decision is wasting their previous effort and now is adding more delays to release the next GT title

10) as you can see, the delay we are experiencing as players in getting our favorite game, is mainly due to Sony moving the goal posts and making PD's job challenging when we all know how lofty Kaz's desires and targets already are
.

"Are we there yet?"

Closer than ever my children, patience... Lol

We do however have an indirect rule that gives us a look into Sony's mindset with regard to this, and that's the PS4 and PS4 Pro. Titles had to have parity of content and features on the two platforms, and we saw exactly that in action. It's arguable that the pro could have allowed the likes of GTS to have more VR content, ToD, etc. yet such features never saw the light of day. Not for GTS, or for that matter any other title! What we got was simply high res and higher framerates, nothing more, and that was mirrored on the other side of the console fence with MS.

This parity of features across platforms is also one shared by MS with the XBox, and as such I strongly suspect it has a lot to do with the legal implications of selling a product under the same name across different platforms with different features.

As such I have zero expectations of a PS5 version of GT7 having features above and beyond those of a PS4 version.

If that is a PS4 version does see the light of day, as the articles GTP have put out make clear, this is unclear based on what Sony have said so far. They certainly have strongly suggested it may be the case, but have, to date, declined to confirm or clarify it.

So based on your hypothesis, I would expand on it and say:
- if the next GT title to be released is now to accommodate the cross gen requirements (which I am perfectly fine with, contrarily to the majority of you),
- then it can only mean the end all be all full feature full blown pushed the limit Next Gen GT game will be and is being pushed out for 2025 ?!

This would bring us back to the traditional Odd vs Even numbered GT games philosophy...

GTS and GT7 are transitional titles, while GT8 will finally be the real deal, the real McCoy...

 

[astrarobotica]

We do however have an indirect rule that gives us a look into Sony's mindset with regard to this, and that's the PS4 and PS4 Pro. Titles had to have parity of content and features on the two platforms, and we saw exactly that in action. It's arguable that the pro could have allowed the likes of GTS to have more VR content, ToD, etc. yet such features never saw the light of day. Not for GTS, or for that matter any other title! What we got was simply high res and higher framerates, nothing more, and that was mirrored on the other side of the console fence with MS.

This parity of features across platforms is also one shared by MS with the XBox, and as such I strongly suspect it has a lot to do with the legal implications of selling a product under the same name across different platforms with different features.

As such I have zero expectations of a PS5 version of GT7 having features above and beyond those of a PS4 version.

If that is a PS4 version does see the light of day, as the articles GTP have put out make clear, this is unclear based on what Sony have said so far. They certainly have strongly suggested it may be the case, but have, to date, declined to confirm or clarify it.

That's a really good point. The blurring of console generational lines has made things so confusing.

One thing I did just read a few minutes ago is that the next Battlefield will support 128 players on new consoles and only 64 on last-gen...

So I wouldn't be surprised at all if the rumored PS4 version supports less cars on track and other sacrifices of that nature, but then that means splitting the player base, and while it doesn't seem to make sense (which is why I'm skeptical of it even being cross-gen) those sort of version differences aren't unheard of by any means.

 

[GingerBredMan]

I swear I've never seen other products with so many comments like, "I won't be buying this, here's my opinion." Everyone is entitled to an opinion. It's just a strange love/hate combo I don't see elsewhere.

I remember the update threads for GTS used to be Royal Rumble . I think part of it is GT has two fanbases: casual gamers and sim racers. I feel like that's what we're seeing play out in this thread, everything with GT has 2 extremes.

 

[Famine]

What difference does it make if it's the last generation jump or this one?

The difference is I said one thing and not the other, because there's basis for it in this case and no basis for it in the other case (this being a racing game site, FH2 demolishes any case for it from X360 to XB1 generation):

I don't know whether there are or there are not, but it has been the case for every PS4-5/XB1-S crossgen game to date. The only differences have been visual upgrades, audio upgrades, loading speeds, grid sizes in racing games (park sizes in theme park games), and DualSense support.

We are yet to see what GTAV's "expanded and enhanced" PS5 version means, and we are only 8 months into this generation, but so far there have been no titles with fundamental gameplay mechanics that are different between the two console generation titles.

You can't use imaginary PlayStation rules to prove your point.

I'm not. I've been pretty clear throughout - even in the article - that the fact that the differences between PS4-5 and XB1-S titles are limited to audiovisual and loading speeds (and DualSense support for PS5) in every case merely suggests that there is something firmer at play guiding this development path in every case, rather than confirms it.

Do we even know for sure that this game is coming out on PS4? The Hermen Hulst quote doesn't even sound definitive to me:

And again, I've been pretty clear throughout - even in the article - that there is no confirmation yet as to the existence of a PS4 version of GT7. This is why the article is titled "Could" and not "Will".

 

[Muller_cj]

I don't know whether there are or there are not, but it has been the case for every PS4-5/XB1-S crossgen game to date. The only differences have been visual upgrades, audio upgrades, loading speeds, grid sizes in racing games (park sizes in theme park games), and DualSense support.

We are yet to see what GTAV's "expanded and enhanced" PS5 version means, and we are only 8 months into this generation, but so far there have been no titles with fundamental gameplay mechanics that are different between the two console generation titles.

Rockstar have already said there will be exclusive next gen content, coming in future DLCs, and it will release with extra content.

 

[karelpipa]

I skipped ps4 because GT sport didn't appeal to me.. Was hoping to pick up a ps5 for gt7. If gt7 is really compromised, I'll hold back on ps5 also.

Thats what ive been doing for almost 10 years now Its sad.

 

[RacingFan1]

Somebody asked about the cpu usage with GT Sport earlier. I've just discovered the PS4 has a homebrew plugin to monitor the system.

https://github.com/OSM-Made/Orbis-Toolbox/releases

So, from limited running with full grid race and time trial:

Core 1 - 4 don't go above 80%
Core 5 doesn't go above 90%
Core 6 doesn't go above 80%
Core 7 - 8 don't go above 65%

I suggested that a game like GT Sport is not exactly the most demanding type of game out there in terms of CPU. But some of the several so wise armchair experts here "corrected" me and said CPU usage was always 100%. Interesting

 

[Dave A]

I suggested that a game like GT Sport is not exactly the most demanding type of game out there in terms of CPU. But some of the several so wise armchair experts here "corrected" me and said CPU usage was always 100%. Interesting

No one said CPU usage was always 100%. Care to provide those quotes? Or are you spouting nonsense again and deliberately being ignorant of what was actually said.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Somebody asked about the cpu usage with GT Sport earlier. I've just discovered the PS4 has a homebrew plugin to monitor the system.

So, from limited running with full grid race and time trial:

Core 1 - 4 don't go above 80%
Core 5 doesn't go above 90%
Core 6 doesn't go above 80%
Core 7 - 8 don't go above 65%

Thanks for this. I'm curious to know how much CPU headroom the PS4 preserves for system functions. Isn't one entire core reserved for the system?

 

[astrarobotica]

The difference is I said one thing and not the other, because there's basis for it in this case and no basis for it in the other case (this being a racing game site, FH2 demolishes any case for it from X360 to XB1 generation):


I'm not. I've been pretty clear throughout - even in the article - that the fact that the differences between PS4-5 and XB1-S titles are limited to audiovisual and loading speeds (and DualSense support for PS5) in every case merely suggests that there is something firmer at play guiding this development path in every case, rather than confirms it.

And again, I've been pretty clear throughout - even in the article - that there is no confirmation yet as to the existence of a PS4 version of GT7. This is why the article is titled "Could" and not "Will".

We just have a difference of opinion. For my part, I'm just going to stop speculating/debating about a game that we have so little information on. I'll save the arguing for when we get more details.

The last part wasn't really aimed at you but just a genuine question, because I'm seeing a lot of outlets making the assumption that it was confirmed but I haven't read anything convincing/definitive. The more we've debated it, the less a cross-gen version has made sense to me.

 

[Famine]

We just have a difference of opinion.

It looks like we're pretty much in agreement to me; we both recognise that no cross-gen PS4-5 or XB1-S title has had any differences outside audiovisual improvements and load times (and DualSense for PS5).

I don't know if there's a rule about it or not, but nobody's breaking the pattern, and that's pretty extraordinary if there isn't a rule about it. I'd imagine someone like Rockstar could just throw money at Sony to look the other way, but PD is a PlayStation Studios developer so if there is a rule then it, as an internal studio, won't be allowed to break it.

The last part wasn't really aimed at you but just a genuine question, because I'm seeing a lot of outlets making the assumption that it was confirmed but I haven't read anything convincing/definitive. The more we've debated it, the less a cross-gen version has made sense to me.

Lots of outlets "confirmed" it right away. I know PushSquare cited "PlayStation PR" to confirm it later on - but we also spoke to PS PR and we didn't get anything like a confirmation.

We're sticking with unconfirmed until confirmed

Thanks for this. I'm curious to know how much CPU headroom the PS4 preserves for system functions. Isn't one entire core reserved for the system?

It used to be two - cores seven and eight. Sony unlocked core seven for use by games if necessary in November 2015.

 

[astrarobotica]

It looks like we're pretty much in agreement to me; we both recognise that no cross-gen PS4-5 or XB1-S title has had any differences outside audiovisual improvements and load times (and DualSense for PS5).

Battlefield has entered the chat.

 

[SlowDuc]

Here's the thing that many people are missing (though TonyJZX touched on it); the homogenous ecosystem a big reason you can produce higher quality results with mid-tier hardware on consoles. Developers know exactly the system configuration they're going to execute on.

The developers of PS5 exclusive games have an opportunity to produce something that exceeds even PC capabilities because they know every single unit has a SSD capable of 5.5GB/sec data transfer. Have you ever played a game and noticed the same 5 car models driving around the city? That's due to memory restrictions that are (widely) eliminated with these SSDs. We can now stream data directly from the stored state and process it immediately. PC developers are at a disadvantage because lots of their customer base is still on 5400RPM physical drives.

That's where the problem with PS4 compatible development becomes a concern. The fundamental game design has to support caching "breaks" or severely reduce complexity in order to support 1/25th data transfer rates.

So do you build a game to flex the PS5 capability and gut it on PS4 to be playable, or do you compromise? I understand the decision, but I don't like it. I didn't buy a PS5 for compromises.

 

[RacingFan1]

No one said CPU usage was always 100%. Care to provide those quotes? Or are you spouting nonsense again and deliberately being ignorant of what was actually said.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...-cross-gen-title.399332/page-25#post-13427384
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...-cross-gen-title.399332/page-25#post-13427404

 

[Dave A]

Battlefield has entered the chat.

That's not different functionality, I think there is a line here being missed between enhancing an existing function and making the game functionally different. Enhancing an existing fuction from a PS4 version of GT7 to a PS5 version would be increasing the size of the gris on PS5, imporving the resolution etc. Making the game functionally different would be dyanmic time of day and weather in the PS5 version but not in the PS4 version.

 

[CTznOfTime]

Here's the thing that many people are missing (though TonyJZX touched on it); the homogenous ecosystem a big reason you can produce higher quality results with mid-tier hardware on consoles. Developers know exactly the system configuration they're going to execute on.

The developers of PS5 exclusive games have an opportunity to produce something that exceeds even PC capabilities because they know every single unit has a SSD capable of 5.5GB/sec data transfer. Have you ever played a game and noticed the same 5 car models driving around the city? That's due to memory restrictions that are (widely) eliminated with these SSDs. We can now stream data directly from the stored state and process it immediately. PC developers are at a disadvantage because lots of their customer base is still on 5400RPM physical drives.

That's where the problem with PS4 compatible development becomes a concern. The fundamental game design has to support caching "breaks" or severely reduce complexity in order to support 1/25th data transfer rates.

So do you build a game to flex the PS5 capability and gut it on PS4 to be playable, or do you compromise? I understand the decision, but I don't like it. I didn't buy a PS5 for compromises.

You can play GT8 when it comes out

 

[Dave A]

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...-cross-gen-title.399332/page-25#post-13427384
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...-cross-gen-title.399332/page-25#post-13427404

Neither of those state that the CPU usage is "always 100%". One is stating that there isn't a "ton" of headroom left and clearly there isn't. The other is not stating it is always using 100% either. It is not possible to run a CPU at 100% all the time and I'm fairly certain @Samus knows that and was not implying that. He was talking about headroom to push the game engine further, which you well know in the context of the discussion taking place at that time, so please stop trolling and resorting to twisting peoples words to win.

 

[Famine]

Battlefield has entered the chat.

The first post you quoted entered the chat literally two hours ago:

It's only been changes to the graphics, grid sizes (in racing games and in theme parks), audio, and DualSense support.

I've previously also given the example of Wreckfest - again in this thread and the article - which also supports more vehicles on PS5.

I don't know what the disconnect is here.

 

[Franske]

https://blog.playstation.com/2021/0...ats-next-for-playstation-studios/#sf246401757

See you guys in another 4-5 years when we finally get a true next-gen Gran Turismo. Since GT7 is e-sport focus for online, expect the same limited physics and game experience between PS4 and PS5 version, both held back by the crappy PS4 laptop CPUs.

EDIT- now confirmed to be cross-gen and coming also to PS4.

There won't be another GT game on the PS5 as long as Sony accepts that PD is terrible lazy. The next GT will be released on the PS 6.

 

[astrarobotica]

That's not different functionality, I think there is a line here being missed between enhancing an existing function and making the game functionally different. Enhancing an existing fuction from a PS4 version of GT7 to a PS5 version would be increasing the size of the gris on PS5, imporving the resolution etc. Making the game functionally different would be dyanmic time of day and weather in the PS5 version but not in the PS4 version.

You're right, but that's not the point I was replying to.

But that's a difference that splits the player base between two different versions of the game. And that opens the door to different patch updates for each console, and then down the road if they want to add a feature that the last-gen version can't handle, there's nothing to stop them from that. The PS3/360 version of GTAV received hardly any of the content updates PS4/XBONE received.

 

[RacingFan1]

Neither of those state that the CPU usage is "always 100%". One is stating that there isn't a "ton" of headroom left and clearly there isn't. The other is not stating it is always using 100% either. It is not possible to run a CPU at 100% all the time and I'm fairly certain @Samus knows that and was not implying that. He was talking about headroom to push the game engine further, which you well know in the context of the discussion taking place at that time, so please stop trolling and resorting to twisting peoples words to win.

"Using as much CPU power as possible" = 100% CPU Usage, in my language at least, which is from planet earth btw.
I don't know about you and others, but I don't take discussions in forums like these like "a game I must win at all costs". I prefer to win races instead. If you or others are so eager to, then I can let you win here