Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[JDMKING13]

For me, understeer DOES make the wheel go light. And I don't really get any vibrating or shaking from understeer. That's the thing - some of what people describe they are getting from the FF in the game is really different from what I'm experiencing.

The FF was described as "noise that you have to figure out for yourself." That's the sort of description I'm disagreeing with.

I know a lot of times I can feel the front end of the cars go light in a straight line once I get to high speed.. more so stock production cars vs race cars… understeer the wheel does vibrate but that once you go beyond because you can actually feel the tires slip.

 

[NevilleNobody]

As a first time user of a "proper" wheel (had t150 before) I am surprised at the lack of subtlety in the ffb. It's either doing nothing or it moves ot notches, not sure if that's the right word but it's not smooth, it's clunky and Chunky and tbh I just find it distracting or at say a strength of 5 it actively yanks the car in directions ibdont want to go if I get it a bit wrong. Like touch a kerb and the wheel goes mental, makes it harder to correct. There's no way in real life your steering wheel goes that crazy catching the edge of a curb, it's just weird to me. So I run it on 1 and 1 in gt7 to get a more chilled experience.

 

[ZevZoq]

As far as GT7 goes, what I've read from owners of "proper" wheels over the past few months has made me happy I never took the plunge on anything "better" than the G29.

 

[Nebuc72]

The FF was described as "noise that you have to figure out for yourself." That's the sort of description I'm disagreeing with.

Half of the thread since I have said that is people either disagreeing that the wheel shakes on understeer at all, saying that "it shakes but then it feels good after" or that it's awful and shakes constantly.
It's pure noise, not even the thread of people thinking it is good FFB has a consistent understanding of what the FFB is trying to convey to them.

You shouldn't have to learn or guess what basic things such as understeering are being conveyed by. Let alone enough for some to straight up be wrong in acknowledging how it's conveyed. It's just not good at all, very unnatural feeling.

 

[ZevZoq]

Half of the thread since I have said that is people either disagreeing that the wheel shakes on understeer at all, saying that "it shakes but then it feels good after" or that it's awful and shakes constantly.
It's pure noise, not even the thread of people thinking it is good FFB has a consistent understanding of what the FFB is trying to convey to them.

You shouldn't have to learn or guess what basic things such as understeering are being conveyed by. Let alone enough for some to straight up be wrong in acknowledging how it's conveyed. It's just not good at all, very unnatural feeling.

I can't speak for what anyone else is feeling. Just what I'm feeling. I don't find myself having to guess much.

 

[sonnyboychris]

Just read a post on the fanatec boards saying they have had a new sdk available for games to implement for about a year now and the only ones to actually have implemented are forza.

..everytime pd releases another one of these ‘free,’ updates.. i think of that…

Hey Hey Hey!!! According to people on this forum you should shut up and be grateful for your free VGT's and Scapes!

 

[Batschisane52]

Half of topic but maybe best to ask here:
I just realised that Sport Soft and Intermediate tires share the exact same PP (at least at a lot of cars). What does that mean performance wise? I would interpret that on dry tarmac performance is the same and in the wet the inters outrun the Sport Softs...? If so what does that mean suspension wise? If not, please explain.

If tire-wear does matter, I would think, that the Intermediates will wear out much faster than the Sport Softs on dry tarmac...

 

[KAlex122]

If tire-wear does matter, I would think, that the Intermediates will wear out much faster than the Sport Softs on dry tarmac...

Yeah, that too.

 

[NevilleNobody]

The swiss track is new to me so doing the circuit tests for the first time. I have golds on the sectors and 6 one hundreds short on the full lap. For some reason this combo feels way better, tc1 works on the alfa and the car rotates.

 

[PirovacBoy]

@Scaff
@Nebuc72
May I chip in Gents?!
So,. you say that the FFB in GT7 is amongst the worst out there or at least it does not provide a good Feedback.
Well of course everyone is entitled to share an opinion.
That's OK, but I couldn't take it any longer.
Because I strongly have to disagree not only with both of you but also with everyone else out there saying GT7 FFB is crap.

I don't even know what to say.
It's beyond me when I read comments like yours.
Because none of which you claim is actually true or let's put it this way, once dialed in, it's spot on.
I absolutely don't get it.
We play the same game I assume both of you drive with Wheel/Pedal setup.
We most probably also have our equipment attached to some sort of Rig.
So we kind of have more or less very similar surroundings.

Yet, the perceived driving experience couldn't be more contrary.

And that is what actually buffles me.
Why?
Just... how
It just doesn't make sense to me and I can only speculate why it might be that different.
But anyway...
Weight transfer, acceleration, deceleration, oversteer, understeer, brakes biting, brakes locking up, tire grip contact, tires loosing grip and regaining grip, chassis movements, road surface, kerbs, rumbles trips..., high speed compression, going over a crest... All of which is simulated very authentic and subtlety nuanced yet and NOW comes a very important part, very intuitive.

Combined with the very detailed sound mix, it creates an unrivaled driving experience.
Driving is easy as it is in real life.
It's predictable its visceral and fast.
And most importantly, to me it feels like the real thing.
Everything I learned and experienced in my real world driving translates perfectly fine into GT7.

As soon as you understand what to look out for and what can be neglected...
As soon as you synchronize the Audiovisual Feedback combined with the physical Feedback provided by your Wheelbase / Rim...
As soon as you start to fine tune things in small yet if sensible enough quite noticeable increments...
As soon as you become one with your machinery...
That's when GT comes to life.
A driving Simulator worth its title.



And yes especially the aforementioned Understeer behavior feels EXACTLY as it does in my car for example.

Don't get me wrong though young Men,
I'm not saying nor do I imply that you are lying or exaggerating stuff.

It's just so very very strange... Incomprehensible.

 

[extreme car]

I can't speak for what anyone else is feeling. Just what I'm feeling. I don't find myself having to guess much.

can I have your G29 settings? I want to try them out cause all the settings that I've tried so far have been poor. I've got no feedback on curbs, and the weird rattle vibration on understeer on my wheel.

 

[ZevZoq]

can I have your G29 settings? I want to try them out cause all the settings that I've tried so far have been poor. I've got no feedback on curbs, and the weird rattle vibration on understeer on my wheel.

Torque 5
Sensitivity 10

 

[Scaff]

Don't get me wrong though young Men,

Oh I wish I was still a young man

I'm not saying nor do I imply that you are lying or exaggerating stuff.

Indeed I'm doing neither, rather basing it on comparisons with every other title around and on over 25 years experience in the motor industry.

GT7 is a fine game, but it certainly isn't the benchmark in vehicle simulation for the genre.

 

[PirovacBoy]

Oh I wish I was still a young man

Indeed I'm doing neither, rather basing it on comparisons with every other title around and on over 25 years experience in the motor industry.

GT7 is a fine game, but it certainly isn't the benchmark in vehicle simulation for the genre.

Good morning young Lad.
I'm very curious and interested if you mind sharing some of your knowledge with me.
You indeed seem to have some profound and undeniably reasonable understanding how things work, so here we go if you don't mind.

OK so from my understanding it's basically and technically / physically impossible to transfer vehicle dynamics and everything which relates to driving a car in real life into the virtual space.

A Wheelbase is practically the only bit we have, physically.
The Software / game code which includes all the information is the other part.
Our translating or operating system is either a PC or a Console, at least for the consumer sector.
There surely might be some fancy high end systems out there but let's keep it casual, right.
So now it's getting interesting.
What exactly is it you or me or everyone out there driving and comuting our daily driver is experiencing?
We have the physical forces/ g forces felt in our bodies and of course we have the physical feedback through our Rim.
And let us not neglect the audiovisual aspect.
This Triangle is basically what defines our driving experience.
If we now try to focus especially on what the Wheelrim is communicating, would you say that it's realistic to expect to feel all you say GT7 does lack in terms of FFB.
Because from my understanding it's not realistic to get overwhelmed with a bunch of FFB Information which I would and do not perceive when strictly focusing on what my Wheel is doing in real life.
Of course I do understand that an FFB Algorithm depending on its fed Calculations can theoretically provide us with all sort of Information.
But it's NOT basically necessary and to me I find it very distracting and unrealistic, hence I prefer to compare a Video Game FFB Code / Algorithm to my perceived experience in real life.
And hands down, depending on a few variables here and there it's more or less a very muted and dampened journey.
Of course things like assisted power steering and in my opinion most importantly self aligning torque, these 2 are very noticeable and physicality always present.
Hence I rate these 2 very high.
These are the most important FFB effects I highly pay attention to.
Because with a smart calculated and implemented Codec these 2 actually communicate and provide us with lots if not most of very important details like over/understeer and grip levels.
Which then, depending on the Wheelbase torque force handling and reaction time/ slew rate capabilities creates and authentic replication and simulates a very detailed experience compared to the real thing.

To me it's just not realistic to expect our Sim Wheels to communicate the other two parts of my aforementioned FFB Triangle.
Don't get me wrong though.
I do like a few let's call them canned effects which tricks our minds in believing and convincing us to feel more connected to what's actually going on on our screens.
Like Curb Rumble, compressions, G Forces etc.
But the way how these effects are implemented and connected to the rest of the FFB Code and finally translated through our Wheelbase is completely subjective.
Because we can't compare them to real life as besides curbs or road imperfections these effects are non existent in real life Wheel rim Behavior.

So before I completely loose myself and dig even deeper into this FFB Rabbit Hole, let's just shortly readjust our expectations and objectively focus on recalibrating our reality check and real life observations.

In short, how much is realistic ?
How much is necessary in our virtual worlds?
And most of all, are your expectations based on facts or wishful thinking.

Give it a minute, don't run down my door.
Am I really that wrong?
I don't think so.
I sometimes have the impression that I'm the only one judging facts.
Wheel rim Facts.
And what is truly to be felt through our hands compared to the reality.

Cheers 🙂

Edit:
I forgot to mention that the Understeer Feedback in GT7 is of course also an effect which is physically present in real life and hence logically should be expected to be simulated too.
Which it is.
And depending on your Wheelbase it comes more or less closer or further away compared to the real thing.
I had a T150 and a T300.
I also had a few Logitech Bases and they all got it very wrong in terms of fidelity and raw signal feedback.

On the other hand, my current Wheelbase which happens to be the DD+ does an excellent job if not an outstanding one.
Progressive, quick and very detailed and scaringly close to the real thing.
Same goes for the Self Aligning Forces and response sync to the on screen input delay audiovisual feedback.
If you get these things right which GT7 does spot on in all its aspects, I mean honestly, I couldn't ask for more.
Not to mention the insanely detailed and blistering fast weight transfer dynamics.
Once Everything is perfectly synchronized, GT7 does deliver the most authentic driving experience.
Not overloaded with crappy fake effects.
Simple and basic.
Almost dull, yet so close to the real thing.
Very accessible and easy to execute, yet very demanding if pushing the limits within ones capabilities.
That's why GT7 is in my opinion the only Simulator which gets the job done.
The real Driving Simulator.
Physics wise very basic too, yet providing a solid basis to work with.

You want more?
No problem.
PC Sims lying just around the corner.
I prefer and take GT7 over every other so called Sim out there.
All day every day.
Especially the highly praised ACC.
Absolutely don't get the fuzz about that game.
But as with all things in life, to each his own.

 

[Pianista911]

I much prefer GT7 over ACC in every aspect except FFB on the wheel. There were some cars in Gran Turismo which felt somehow natural (usually road cars on Comfort/Sports tyres), but the moment I switched to GT4/3 it was disconnected. ACC is objectively a 'harder' game, but the driving itself was more similar to what I feel when driving real car. I could react to oversteer or loss of grip intuitively.

 

[PirovacBoy]

I much prefer GT7 over ACC in every aspect except FFB on the wheel. There were some cars in Gran Turismo which felt somehow natural (usually road cars on Comfort/Sports tyres), but the moment I switched to GT4/3 it was disconnected. ACC is objectively a 'harder' game, but the driving itself was more similar to what I feel when driving real car. I could react to oversteer or loss of grip intuitively.

Say what?!
So let me get this right please.
So you say Road Cars with Street / Track tires do feel natural, in GT7 yet you prefer ACC in terms of FFB?!
Because in GT7 the gr categories you feel disconnected.
You say in ACC it feels more similar to what you feel when driving a real car.
Does that mean you drive or have driven GT3/4 cars in real life?!
So you objectively can judge and compare the sensations to your real world experience?!

Because if not, and that doesn't strictly only refer to you, but to many many out here making comparisons to what the GT 3/4 Cars do feel, respectively should in their opinion feel like which of course are just assumptions based on absolutely zero real life experience.

Personally I happen to neglect these highly unserious comments and statements.
Because how can I personally judge something I actually haven't discovered / experienced?
Doesn't make sense to me.
Even more scandalous, convincing us to believe they know it better.
Yet confronted with the reality check... Suddenly surrounded with all sorts of excuses 😅
Amusing, sweet.

Look let me just briefly tell you something.
I live in Cologne/ Germany.
65 km away from my home, I'm very lucky and proud to be a regular Nordschleife Visitor.
Misha Charoudin does say you something?
I had the chance to take a passenger seat ride right next to him.
I an Audi RS5 which in that time was my brother in laws' belonging.
Shortcut here, we talked a bit about how it feels to him driving cars around Nordschleife compared to the virtual thing.
Short answer.
Well it was more of a laughter.
Before he continued to give me a more serious insight.
Shortcut again.
Less is more.
Virtual Sims can try to replicate all sorts of sensations but it will never come even remotely close to sitting behind the Wheel and being involved in the experience and extremely overwhelming physical as well as mental impact to your body and senses.

I personally have never driven a Gt3/4 Car, but based on real world driver comments, these rides are very easy to handle.
Let alone the physical aspect which is written on a completely different paper.
But just skill wise it's not that demanding if you have a basic understanding of driving a car.
Grippy tires combined with higher downforces than your average daily commuter, firm and partly very uncomfortable seating position, a Suspension which let's you feel your guts being completely readjusted and voilà let's go. Easy 😁

And that is exactly how these cars do feel to me in GT7.
Compared to driving Road cars in their oem variant, which are way more challenging and demanding due to their way higher unpredictable or let's say more lively character.
Depending on the speeds you are running these road cars and push their somewhat unforgiving squishy suspension, expect some very nasty situations.
And yet again something which GT7 does simulate very authentic imo.

In conclusion, driving cars in a sporty manner is a dance on a knives edge with Stock Road Cars.
GT Cars on the other hand are way more predictable and easy to drive.
Not saying it's easy. Yet easy 😅

At the end of the day it's all personal preference.
As long as it floats your little boat we are all happy sailors 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[Nebuc72]

iRacing for me is my gold standard of FFB. It's not the most technically advanced but in both production and race cars it conveys what the driver would be feeling through the steering wheel rather than trying to emulate what the wheels are running over, which is what GT7 is doing (in my opinion, poorly).
I don't like all the unnecessary noise that GT7 adds, and I don't like at all there's barely any options to change the settings ingame.

 

[Pianista911]

I've never drove GT-class in real life, nor I scientifically analysed how different forces in steering wheel feel and should be represented in a video game, but ACC gives me feedback similar to what my brain and muscles have subconsciously coded from driving a real car on public roads, karting (very often) and sports car with custom suspension, brakes and settings made for the track (just a few times, to be fair, as it happens to be quite a costly hobby). I know how oversteer (I drive powerful, but front-heavy Audi daily) and understeer feels in real life and how different is 'race car' handling to regular everyday car.

In GT7, those race cars are indeed 'easy' to handle, but not in a realistic way. I do not feel the wheel resistance which slick tyre glued to asphalt gives in fast long corners in real life or looseness when they are sliding. Intensity of the effect is tamed and amplitude is off, not what my brain expects in those situtations.

 

[ZevZoq]

iRacing for me is my gold standard of FFB. It's not the most technically advanced but in both production and race cars it conveys what the driver would be feeling through the steering wheel rather than trying to emulate what the wheels are running over, which is what GT7 is doing (in my opinion, poorly).
I don't like all the unnecessary noise that GT7 adds, and I don't like at all there's barely any options to change the settings ingame.

Again, this reference to noise is strange to me. Are you talking about Trueforce? Because I'm with you as regards what information I want from the wheel. I don't want "fake/random/gamey" vibration and rumble effects. I just want the sort of info that one would actually get from a wheel in a car. The only real feeling I should have from the wheel is the feeling of forces that affect the steering in some unequal way such that it would cause a notable force in one direction or the other on the wheel. I don't want any particular attempt to simulate forces that I would only feel on my body rather than from the wheel itself. So, as far as emulating what the wheels are running over, if it applies some unequal force to the steering it should be felt in some way - such as the road cracks I mentioned earlier at Nord. They run along the length of the track on the long straight, not across it. The effect of rolling over them from side to side is incredibly subtle...you can hardly feel it. But it is there, and I love it. I've become a little addicted to it because it feels so realistic to me - just this very slight, light little pull from the wheel as I move across the track, first one side of the car and then the other as each front tire crosses the crack. Some cars its more evident than others but it's always very subtle. I just don't feel anything "noisy" about the FF I'm getting. If I go over a bump or curb I feel an effect on the wheel that to me seems about right relative to the situation. If the curb is inside on a corner the effect is pretty light because weight is loaded in the other direction. If the curb is outside a corner the effect is more pronounced because weight is loaded onto that side of the car. Ftmp, it all makes pretty good sense to me...

 

[Nebuc72]

Again, this reference to noise is strange to me. Are you talking about Trueforce? Because I'm with you as regards what information I want from the wheel. I don't want "fake/random/gamey" vibration and rumble effects. I just want the sort of info that one would actually get from a wheel in a car. The only real feeling I should have from the wheel is the feeling of forces that affect the steering in some unequal way such that it would cause a notable force in one direction or the other on the wheel. I don't want any particular attempt to simulate forces that I would only feel on my body rather than from the wheel itself. So, as far as emulating what the wheels are running over, if it applies some unequal force to the steering it should be felt in some way - such as the road cracks I mentioned earlier at Nord. They run along the length of the track, not across it. The effect of rolling over them from side to side is incredibly subtle...you can hardly feel it. But it is there, and I love it. I've become a little addicted to it because it feels so realistic to me - just this very slight, light little pull from the wheel as I move across the track, first one side of the car and then the other as each front tire crosses the crack. Some cars its more evident than others but it's always very subtle. I just don't feel anything "noisy" about the FF I'm getting. If I go over a bump or curb I feel an effect on the wheel that to me seems about right relative to the situation. If the curb is inside on a corner the effect is pretty light because weight is loaded in the other direction. If the curb is outside a corner the effect is more pronounced because weight is loaded onto that side of the car. Ftmp, it all makes pretty good sense to me...

I'm not on about trueforce. I've said that the feel you get from the track surface in GT7 is mostly good (some kerbs just have no feel for some reason, most noticable at Maggiore) but stuff like even mild understeer being conveyed by violently vibrating the wheel is just fake noise and removes any ability to actually identify what the car is doing.

FFb is more than "what is the track surface like" and to me GT7 completely and utterly fails at communicating what you need to know efficiently.

 

[ZevZoq]

I'm not on about trueforce. I've said that the feel you get from the track surface in GT7 is mostly good (some kerbs just have no feel for some reason, most noticable at Maggiore) but stuff like even mild understeer being conveyed by violently vibrating the wheel is just fake noise and removes any ability to actually identify what the car is doing.

FFb is more than "what is the track surface like" and to me GT7 completely and utterly fails at communicating what you need to know efficiently.

yes, and again...I don't get anything in the way of "violent vibration" from understeer. I'm fully aware that FF is more than what the track surface is like. I can feel the back end getting loose. I can correct slides fairly well (allowing that obviously not every slide is correctable of course). I can feel the weight transfer...I'm not just talking about the road surface.

Not every curb should have much feel. I mean some curbs are little more than just painted sections of track surface.

 

[PirovacBoy]

I've never drove GT-class in real life, nor I scientifically analysed how different forces in steering wheel feel and should be represented in a video game, but ACC gives me feedback similar to what my brain and muscles have subconsciously coded from driving a real car on public roads, karting (very often) and sports car with custom suspension, brakes and settings made for the track (just a few times, to be fair, as it happens to be quite a costly hobby). I know how oversteer (I drive powerful, but front-heavy Audi daily) and understeer feels in real life and how different is 'race car' handling to regular everyday car.

In GT7, those race cars are indeed 'easy' to handle, but not in a realistic way. I do not feel the wheel resistance which slick tyre glued to asphalt gives in fast long corners in real life or looseness when they are sliding. Intensity of the effect is tamed and amplitude is off, not what my brain expects in those situtations.

I see.
By the way out of curiosity, what Wheelbase are you running to play GT7 or any other Racing Sim.
Because let me assure you that especially your aforementioned Wheel resistance and tire grip levels are simulated extremely detailed and intuitive yet not very communicative in its default signal output.
But I definitely can feel the overall traction intensity and how well the car is planted to the road once I dialed and leveled in the intensity of certain effects.
To the point that now even the position of which tire is exactly about to loose grip can be felt quite noticeable.
Sensible hands, playing the piano is key.
And exactly like @Nebuc72 mentioned it's the unnecessary noise which by the way I have mentioned many years ago too is the caveat masking the useful and necessary information in GT7 FFB Model.
I have written countless essays here on gtp, making analogies to Music Production and using mixing desks or equilizers to readjust the frequencies.
It's all about listening /feeling /perceiving what you are looking for to achieve and what is the missing link in all that noise.
Because again, it is implemented in GT7s' codec.

But because of the fact that in most cases only the higher endish Wheelbases provide us with the needed dials and buttons, it's basically impossible to tune the signal and filter out the needed frequencies and raise or lower certain other effects in the raw output Signal.
Once you know what each tuning menu category does and what exact impact it has to a specific FFB detail it's only a matter of taking your time and highly concentrated paying attention to the changes each of these categories within the tuning menu has whilst driving.
Until you finally settle in with your personal Signal.
Because everyone of us has different likings or is looking for a something else in order to get the desired result.

Oh and another heavily criticized aspect I can't understand why people hate on it is the No ABS implementation.
It's fabulous and extremely well integrated in GT7s FFB Algorithm.
Again, I'm using Load cell pedals and I know exactly how braking without the assisted ABS System operates in real life and more important how it feels.

Hence I don't use ABS in GT7 or any other Sim.
Not anymore.
Since GT Sport I always used weak ABS.
It felt more precise rotating and precisely pointing the car.
Trail braking and stopping distance are superior to default ABS.
But I get why people hate on it.
It actually requires finesse.
F1 and the FIA hasn't banned ABS from its regulations because they wanted to see crashes and injured pilots.
No, they did it because in the Pinnacle class of Motorsports, only the best and most skill refined drivers are to be found and braking or making correct use of it is an art in itself.
Of course in GT7 to some it's just too demanding.
They watch some streamers telling them this or that is the way to go and they just accept and follow.
Never to truly understand acceleration and braking dynamics and how impactful a composed and consciously applied application is.

To sum it up.
GT7 does it all right and in a very realistic way.
Unfortunately we still don't have pulsating / pumping brake pedals in our ecosystem but the simulated effect of locking the brakes up is absolutely spot on, same goes for releasing/opening and freeing up the locked tire.
It's so good and detailed a shame people just don't realize or are willing to acknowledge this aspect.

GT7 completely and utterly fails at communicating what you need to know efficiently

I can't believe what you just said.
Your opinion in all respect and please, without implying to sound disrespectful or harsh but let alone this comment completely disqualifies your ability or my good will to assume your competence for judgment in terms of FFB.
How on earth... 🫣

 

[Nebuc72]

I can't believe what you just said.
Your opinion in all respect and please, without implying to sound disrespectful or harsh but let alone this comment completely disqualifies your ability or my good will to assume your competence for judgment in terms of FFB.
How on earth... 🫣

Ok

 

[TheAdmiester]

As a self declared FFB expert I can safely say you're all wrong.

 

[sejtur]

Half of the thread since I have said that is people either disagreeing that the wheel shakes on understeer at all, saying that "it shakes but then it feels good after" or that it's awful and shakes constantly.
It's pure noise, not even the thread of people thinking it is good FFB has a consistent understanding of what the FFB is trying to convey to them.

You shouldn't have to learn or guess what basic things such as understeering are being conveyed by. Let alone enough for some to straight up be wrong in acknowledging how it's conveyed. It's just not good at all, very unnatural feeling.

IIRC it's not meant as natural FFB, but as a warning that you're understeering, consciously programmed into the game by PD. I'm not sure if this is true, but I wish we could turn it off.

 

[Nebuc72]

IIRC it's not meant as natural FFB, but as a warning that you're understeering, consciously programmed into the game by PD. I'm not sure if this is true, but I wish we could turn it off.

Yeah I just wish we had more options really. The track feedback is good but there's a lot of self imposed fluff that disguises what they have that's actually good. Having 2 options that are both poorly explained in game is pretty bad for a game of this era.

 

[PirovacBoy]

As a self declared FFB expert I can safely say you're all wrong.

Interesting to say the least... You got my attention.
Mind to enlighten us 🙃

 

[imChris]

IIRC it's not meant as natural FFB, but as a warning that you're understeering, consciously programmed into the game by PD. I'm not sure if this is true, but I wish we could turn it off.

That makes sense. Would be nice if PD changed understeer feedback to be realistic in future games though (that is, by making the wheel go light). But perhaps that is impossible since it would evoke a negative response from long time GT players, who's muscle memory is now trained on this feedback.

 

[Scaff]

Good morning young Lad.

If your profile is accurate, I've ten years on you, so please stop.

I'm very curious and interested if you mind sharing some of your knowledge with me.
You indeed seem to have some profound and undeniably reasonable understanding how things work, so here we go if you don't mind.

I can assure you, that was funnier in your head.

OK so from my understanding it's basically and technically / physically impossible to transfer vehicle dynamics and everything which relates to driving a car in real life into the virtual space.

Nope, it's possible, it's getting it all back out to the user that's the tricky bit (well unless you have quite a few million).

A Wheelbase is practically the only bit we have, physically.

Again, nope. At the most basic level a controller can also do this via haptics and rumble, beyond a wheelbase we then also have tactile and motion rigs (assuming they are driven by telemetry data).

So now it's getting interesting.

It might be...

What exactly is it you or me or everyone out there driving and comuting our daily driver is experiencing?
We have the physical forces/ g forces felt in our bodies and of course we have the physical feedback through our Rim.

Quite a bit less, and to a much lesser degree than when you head out on track.

And let us not neglect the audiovisual aspect.
This Triangle is basically what defines our driving experience.
If we now try to focus especially on what the Wheelrim is communicating, would you say that it's realistic to expect to feel all you say GT7 does lack in terms of FFB.

Yes, because I'm basing it on what we should feel via a wheel.

Because from my understanding it's not realistic to get overwhelmed with a bunch of FFB Information which I would and do not perceive when strictly focusing on what my Wheel is doing in real life.

Good job I've not claimed that then...

Of course I do understand that an FFB Algorithm depending on its fed Calculations can theoretically provide us with all sort of Information.
But it's NOT basically necessary and to me I find it very distracting and unrealistic, hence I prefer to compare a Video Game FFB Code / Algorithm to my perceived experience in real life.
And hands down, depending on a few variables here and there it's more or less a very muted and dampened journey.

Now that depends on what you are driving, where you are driving, and what the loads on the car are.

Of course things like assisted power steering and in my opinion most importantly self aligning torque, these 2 are very noticeable and physicality always present.
Hence I rate these 2 very high.
These are the most important FFB effects I highly pay attention to.

Self-aligning torque is both dominant and important during cornering, that is far from the only time when what the wheel is telling you (and in terms of wheel communication, power-steering is a barrier) is important, and it's certainly not always present.

Because with a smart calculated and implemented Codec these 2 actually communicate and provide us with lots if not most of very important details like over/understeer and grip levels.

When cornering.

Which then, depending on the Wheelbase torque force handling and reaction time/ slew rate capabilities creates and authentic replication and simulates a very detailed experience compared to the real thing.

It's actually far more important that the information being sent to the wheelbase is accurate.

To me it's just not realistic to expect our Sim Wheels to communicate the other two parts of my aforementioned FFB Triangle.
Don't get me wrong though.
I do like a few let's call them canned effects which tricks our minds in believing and convincing us to feel more connected to what's actually going on on our screens.

I've not said otherwise.

Like Curb Rumble, compressions, G Forces etc.

Are you honestly claiming that none of those forces can be communicated to a driver via the steering?

Have you ever driven a race preped car at speed on a track?

So before I completely loose myself and dig even deeper into this FFB Rabbit Hole, let's just shortly readjust our expectations and objectively focus on recalibrating our reality check and real life observations.

And your real life observations are based on?

In short, how much is realistic ?
How much is necessary in our virtual worlds?
And most of all, are your expectations based on facts or wishful thinking.

Fact and a good degree of personal experience.

Give it a minute, don't run down my door.
Am I really that wrong?
I don't think so.
I sometimes have the impression that I'm the only one judging facts.
Wheel rim Facts.
And what is truly to be felt through our hands compared to the reality.

Cheers 🙂

Actually quite a few 'not-facts' from you.

Edit:
I forgot to mention that the Understeer Feedback in GT7 is of course also an effect which is physically present in real life and hence logically should be expected to be simulated too.
Which it is.
And depending on your Wheelbase it comes more or less closer or further away compared to the real thing.
I had a T150 and a T300.
I also had a few Logitech Bases and they all got it very wrong in terms of fidelity and raw signal feedback.

On the other hand, my current Wheelbase which happens to be the DD+ does an excellent job if not an outstanding one.
Progressive, quick and very detailed and scaringly close to the real thing.

Yep we get it, you've had a range of wheelbases, you're not alone.

Same goes for the Self Aligning Forces and response sync to the on screen input delay audiovisual feedback.

Wut?

If you get these things right which GT7 does spot on in all its aspects, I mean honestly, I couldn't ask for more.

Lateral Load (i.e. steering weight) can reduce by 80% or more before peak slip is reached (and therefore before any tyre skip should be felt), I've never felt GT7 do this, I have experienced it in numerous other titles.

Not to mention the insanely detailed and blistering fast weight transfer dynamics.

That still don't feel accurate for lift-off oversteer or the rear getting loose under breaking.

Once Everything is perfectly synchronized, GT7 does deliver the most authentic driving experience.
Not overloaded with crappy fake effects.
Simple and basic.
Almost dull, yet so close to the real thing.
Very accessible and easy to execute, yet very demanding if pushing the limits within ones capabilities.
That's why GT7 is in my opinion the only Simulator which gets the job done.
The real Driving Simulator.
Physics wise very basic too, yet providing a solid basis to work with.

So you're claiming that GT7 is accurate because it ignores stuff? Odd.

You want more?
No problem.
PC Sims lying just around the corner.

Made that move years ago, as such I'm comparing GT7 to a lot more titles in the genre.

I prefer and take GT7 over every other so called Sim out there.
All day every day.
Especially the highly praised ACC.
Absolutely don't get the fuzz about that game.
But as with all things in life, to each his own.

Good for you, doesn't make GT7 the uber-accurate sim you're claiming it to be.

IIRC it's not meant as natural FFB, but as a warning that you're understeering, consciously programmed into the game by PD. I'm not sure if this is true, but I wish we could turn it off.

 

[ZevZoq]

I've been running laps at Spa this morning trying to improve my time in the TT in the NSX. Lots and lots of understeer moments let me tell you! lol...but nothing even remotely describable as violent shaking. The wheel doesn't go completely limp. There's always a bit of weight on it, but no steering authority until grip is re-attained. But I don't think it really should go completely weightless. There should always be a bit of weight on the wheel just from mechanical friction or resisitence or whatever you want to call it. One of the things I liked about the recent physics update was that it seemed to mostly resolve the issue with the G29 where the wheel felt completely un-connected around the centre line - like there was a total dead zone for 5 degrees either direction or something. It felt very weird. That's mostly gone now. But anyway as far as any sort of gamey violent wheel vibration to warn about understeer, it's just not something I'm experiencing at all. I can't speak for every single car of course, but just generally not something I'm experiencing.