Gran Turismo 7 Update Coming July 28

[RandomCarGuy17]

They don't exist, period. The time they wasted on thinking about the parts and the tunes to make those cars could've been used on actual real life cars. Would it be less cars? Yes, probably, but they would at least be cars we can relate to, that we saw racing in real life.

It technically wouldn't be less cars, the time put in those models would just be spent on other GT3 cars.

You are essentially arguing semantics with me of why I consider those cars duplicates. In the true sense of the word, they aren't, but they are in the way that they just picked up the base model and updated it with some parts and considered it a stand-alone car,

Because you keep calling them duplicates when the whole time you meant variations of a car. and even then, you're still misrepresenting what the cars are by saying you can slap together some parts on a normal car and call it a Gr.3 car. Either that or you're arguing the equivalent of what The Crew video game did and allowed you to put a normal BMW M4 in a racing shop and turn it into a DTM car.

Instead, they picked up a base model (take the Mustang and Mitsubishi Final) and multiplied it by 2 or even 3 with some parts to categorize it as different cars lol. Not TRUE duplicates, but the essence is basically the same, to not have the hassle of actually using real life models, or... just for the Gran Turismo events where only a tiny minority participate in.

 

[Imari]

I feel like I would still be driven crazy on the idea of the real GT4 cars being treated as seperate cars and the fictional ones not. Another problem is that I have a feeling is PD implemented this, it would become a menu navigation nightmare. You would have to buy a road car, then I bet they would make you put so many buttons to make the car.

I'm suggesting that real GT4 cars would also be implemented as upgrade paths for the relevant base car. If there were multiple cosmetic variations for a single model* then the player could choose which they want.
*because for the purposes of BoP it's probably going to be easiest to make all instances of the same model equal in performance even if they're technically not in real life.

Anything based off modifications of the same platform should be an upgrade path, imaginary or not. I don't much care about the difference between a GT4 that exists in real life and one that is "fictional", provided that it's done well.

And yes, I'm sure Polyphony would mess up the implementation. But since we're already talking about fixing something that they're doing poorly we could fix that too. Upgrade presets to make a car into each spec. Forza already has one-click options to auto-upgrade to the top of a PI class, GT should have that for specific BoP classes like Group 3/4.

 

[RandomCarGuy17]

I'm suggesting that real GT4 cars would also be implemented as upgrade paths for the relevant base car. If there were multiple cosmetic variations for a single model* then the player could choose which they want.
*because for the purposes of BoP it's probably going to be easiest to make all instances of the same model equal in performance even if they're technically not in real life.

Anything based off modifications of the same platform should be an upgrade path, imaginary or not. I don't much care about the difference between a GT4 that exists in real life and one that is "fictional", provided that it's done well.

Oh, in that case; I would be fine with it if both the fictional cars and real cars were treated the same. I think I recall another user suggesting something similar, being able to put a one-click button or something to turn a normal car into a Gr.4 car.

And yes, I'm sure Polyphony would mess up the implementation. But since we're already talking about fixing something that they're doing poorly we could fix that too. Upgrade presets to make a car into each spec. Forza already has one-click options to auto-upgrade to the top of a PI class, GT should have that for specific BoP classes like Group 3/4.

That's also true, I kinda wished that GT did have an auto-upgrade option to balance cars to a certain performance rating so I didn't have to do it myself. Especially since I really don't know much about tuning.

 

[Techlet]

I would consider the most blatant duplicates to be all the Gr3 "road cars" and the Gr1 VGTs.

Either leave the Gr1 class unmolested by overpowered VGTs or actually make Gr1 VGT copies visually and mechanically distinct enough to justify being a separate car.

The Gr3 road cars on the other hand are there purely to pump up the car count.

 

[Grimm6Jack]

Oh, in that case; I would be fine with it if both the fictional cars and real cars were treated the same.

It's different... The real life cars have their history. Take the Le Mans winner McLaren F1 (the one that is a Gr.3 car in the game), that's a car with its own history, completely separated from the road car itself. They have their own soul, much like the 911 RSR that won its class as well, it has it's own identity. Or the 488, or the Viper GTS-R Team Oreca, and many other GT cars that raced in real life.

The other fictional Gr. cars are just the road going cars updated with parts from PD, that WE could've done them ourselves. It's just not the same no matter how much you cut it. They have no history whatsoever in the motorsport world. This is my whole point about them rather than if they are true duplicates or not.

You go to the Mitsubishi Dealership (I'm started to get a bit tired of repeating myself), and you see the Mitsubishi Evolution Final road car... And then 4 OTHERS as Gr.4, Gr.3, Gr.B and even a nonsensical Gr.B "Road car" for whatever stupid purpose it has.
Why not have just the Road Car in the dealership and then in GT Auto we could actually update it with the parts we see fit and with GT7's amazing livery editor, make the livery ourselves as well? It's just lazy to title these cars as stand-alones when they shouldn't be. And you add them together with the other fictional cars (VGTs) and you get over 110 of them out of the 436 we have in the game.

For a company with 9 years post-GT6, to only deliver this much content? This is the core of my problem with PD on this subject... And yes... massively disappointing.

EDIT: Despite some misunderstandings, you're actually the first guy trying to... I wouldn't say "defend" in the literal sense but english not being my first language and for lack of a better word, I'll use it... you're the first guy trying to defend this issue with some rather convincing logic and while being civil. That's quite the rare sight in this forum.

 

[RandomCarGuy17]

It's different... The real life cars have their history. Take the Le Mans winner McLaren F1 (the one that is a Gr.3 car in the game), that's a car with its own history, completely separated from the road car itself. They have their own soul, much like the 911 RSR that won its class as well, it has it's own identity. Or the 488, or the Viper GTS-R Team Oreca, and many other GT cars that raced in real life.

The other fictional Gr. cars are just the road going cars updated with parts from PD, that WE could've done them ourselves. It's just not the same no matter how much you cut it. They have no history whatsoever in the motorsport world. This is my whole point about them rather than if they are true duplicates or not.

Just no!

 

[Grimm6Jack]

View attachment 1179430

Just no!

Actually yes... A car that actually competed in something IRL has far more significance than something completely made up. Period...

 

[RandomCarGuy17]

Actually yes... A car that actually competed in something IRL has far more significance than something completely made up. Period...

Alright, I'll give you one thing. You're right, a real life car with history has more significance in many ways than something made up. There's a lot of fun in a fictional, "what if" car made for a game, but that won't match the effort and historical significance of a real car.

I could even argue that Polyphony put some time and effort to look into how GT3 cars work and function and then use the data gathered to create these cars has some significance. The history made in e-Sports events using these cars can have some historical significance. But Even with that considered, I would NEVER argue that a Ford Mustang Gr.3 for instance has more weight in importance than a the Ford GT LM that won the 2016 24 hours LeMans in the GTE Pro class. or the made-up Jaguar F-Type Gr.3 not being as significant as the Jaguar XKR GT3.

You go to the Mitsubishi Dealership (I'm started to get a bit tired of repeating myself), and you see the Mitsubishi Evolution Final road car... And then 4 OTHERS as Gr.4, Gr.3, Gr.B and even a nonsensical Gr.B "Road car" for whatever stupid purpose it has.
Why not have just the Road Car in the dealership and then in GT Auto we could actually update it with the parts we see fit and with GT7's amazing livery editor, make the livery ourselves as well? It's just lazy to title these cars as stand-alones when they shouldn't be. And you add them together with the other fictional cars (VGTs) and you get over 110 of them out of the 436 we have in the game.

With what I said, you shouldn't need to repeat this and I didn't want you to. I heard this point a million times, but this isn't my issue with your argument. Well except for one thing, I really don't want to make something myself, because it will be literally worse than what the developers can do. I can make a replica of a Group A R32 Skyline GT-R right now with the parts we have and the livery editor, there's probably a tune out there, but it won't amount to the same work a developer would put. My Group A R32 or in this case, Group B "what if" Evo X Lancer would suck compared to what a developer could do. and I really don't know how to tune well, it's why I don't race online mostly. Well that and online racers can be jerks.

As I told Imari and I think Dacc, I have no problem with including a one button option to convert a car into a 'what if' GT4 car or GT3 car. It sounds like a fun option. Well, except for the menu nightmare brought upon doing this as shown already several times in the more recent GT titles, PD doesn't want to make a good flowing menu design.

-------
Which now leads to this comment. I have problems with it despite what I said above. Why do I have an issue with this comment?

It's different... The real life cars have their history. Take the Le Mans winner McLaren F1 (the one that is a Gr.3 car in the game), that's a car with its own history, completely separated from the road car itself. They have their own soul, much like the 911 RSR that won its class as well, it has it's own identity. Or the 488, or the Viper GTS-R Team Oreca, and many other GT cars that raced in real life.

The other fictional Gr. cars are just the road going cars updated with parts from PD, that WE could've done them ourselves. It's just not the same no matter how much you cut it. They have no history whatsoever in the motorsport world. This is my whole point about them rather than if they are true duplicates or not.

Alright, my issue is that I still think it's unfair to treat Gr.3 cars and GT3 cars as different. If you're going to make Gr.3 cars an option-able modification, then in my mind; the GT3 car should be treated the same despite what you said. Despite everything you said at this point, I stand by my opinion.

For this these two reasons, consistency and function. I have already told you how Gr.3 cars work and presented that the developers for sure intended them as such; to be "what if" GT3 cars with real-world logic use to create them, even though they don't exist in real life. Yes? All is this presented. Well that's my point, the cars despite what you think still function the same as GT3 cars; so they should have equal treatment despite the historical significance of the real cars. They for sure aren't real, but they drive and function as real GT3 cars would. and if they function the same, then they need to be treated the same. In my mind, it doesn't matter how much history is behind one car over the other when it comes down to a video game, even including a sim. or sim-cade in GT7's case.

Which goes in hand with consistency, this would bog my mind down like crazy if Gr.3 cars were the only cars accessible through upgrades in GT Auto. Because even if the other cars that are treated as separate cars are real while these aren't, that is still going to be a problem.

you're the first guy trying to defend this issue with some rather convincing logic and while being civil. That's quite the rare sight in this forum.

and thank you for the compliment. I try to keep myself civil as I can.

 

[Grimm6Jack]

They for sure aren't real, but they drive and function as real GT3 cars would. and if they function the same, then they need to be treated the same. In my mind, it doesn't matter how much history is behind one car over the other when it comes down to a video game, even including a sim. or sim-cade in GT7's case.

Which goes in hand with consistency, this would bog my mind down like crazy if Gr.3 cars were the only cars accessible through upgrades in GT Auto. Because even if the other cars that are treated as separate cars are real while these aren't, that is still going to be a problem.

I won't disregard the fact that they do function very much as the real GT cars do, that's one thing done right at least with these cars. They don't feel out of place in a grid either as their performances are all closely matched and are easy to BoP. Unlike the Gr.1 VGTs with the Group C and LMP cars for example.

But this here is, as I stated, a matter of our preferences and views. In your mind, history behind a car doesn't matter, in my mind it does, and lots of it. And as much as it would bog your mind like crazy if those Gr. cars (not just Gr.3, I'm talking about Gr.4 and Gr.B here as well) were just like the optional RM in GT Auto that we had in GT5/GT6, in my mind I would be perfectly fine with it, and contrary, it bogs my mind that they are stand-alone cars as they are right now.

So yeah, not much more to add here.

 

[Aksu593]

The strawman was directed at him saying "players" wanting modern cars and not wanting old cars or whatever, and then using something as the 488 and 720 GT3 as examples of duplicates when they quite clearly are not. He really didn't address anything here... Just empty words really.

As for the Gr.3 cars. They don't exist IRL. PD just added bodykits to the road car and called them Gr.3/Gr.4 when they could've easily had the RM option in GT Auto for those cars. This is a game, it isn't supposed to be ultra-realistic about where you can buy the car parts.
However, using normal cars, adding parts to them and creating basically fictional Gr. cars and then add them to the car count? That's laziness...
Go to the Mitsubishi car dealership in brand central... And you have like 5 iterations of the Evolution Final, of which 4 don't exist... And a VGT.

And just because it counted in GT5, doesn't mean it wasn't a stupid way of inflating the car count anyway. GT5 and GT6 were the worst of the series in terms of inflating the car count. Far worse than GT7 by the way which is actually not bad in terms of duplicates, just too many fictional cars.
PD even goes the extra mile to create Gr. cars out of frickin fictional already non-existing VGTs ffs. I want to race the cars that I've seen in videos, in TVs, that the manufacturers actually created for a purpose in racing, cars with actual history. Not something made up to appease the 0.1% that do the races on e-sports and to just inflate the car count.

Out of all the Rally Gr.B cars in the game, only 2 of them are real life cars... The Audi Quattro and the 205 Evo II... That's just... sad. When they had a crapton of cool and amazing Rally cars in the past games.

While I as well would prefer real-life GT3 versions when they exist instead of fictional ones and agree that any VGT Gr. X racecars are pure trash and should go (just like the rest of the VGT program by now, seriously, it's been 9 years), calling these fictional Gr-class cars "just the road car with a GT Auto bodykit" is ridiculous, many of them have been heavily modified to fit within their class rules to the point where they bear little resemblance to the original model in anything other than badging and some parts of the silhouette.

Besides the custom-made racing interiors, cars such as the NSX have had their hybrid systems removed and have been converted to a RWD drivetrain, the Evo X and WRX STi are now FRs and their entire bodies have been remodeled. The Focus Gr. B has even been turned into a 3-door vehicle, which I don't think you can simply just do to your ST by slapping a body kit on it.

Some of them are quite close to the original indeed, but many of them (particularly in Gr. 3 and B) have been modded to the point where you really can consider them their own cars

 

[weni64us]

I can now pick any car from my garage and then save the settings in the custom race. Then I can race them and I’m having so much fun since the update. I haven’t slept for days, I’ve always wanted the ability to be able to do this in a racing game.Well done PD.

I don't understand the complaints about the VGT cars. I don't like many of them but I do not see a problem with them being in the game. You have the choice to use them or not. Being in the game does not affect the gameplay.

You say it yourself, that you don’t like many of the VGT cars and we have a choice to use them or not. That in its self indirectly effects the gameplay, if you do decide not to use them then they are a waste of space and a car more deserving could take its place!

 

[Megabytesize]

The private lobbies are still having tons of issues what with all the wiggly and warping cars. It would be great if this part would get fixed for us who race in and run leagues.

Doesn't matter who is hosting them I still run into the same issues.

 

[PApunk924]

The private lobbies are still having tons of issues what with all the wiggly and warping cars. It would be great if this part would get fixed for us who race in and run leagues.

Doesn't matter who is hosting them I still run into the same issues.

@Famine can help you with the lobby issues.

 

[Famine]

@Famine can help you with the lobby issues.

I probably can't, because v1.19 seems to have introduced a new issue - which looks to be exacerbated by cross-generation play - affecting private lobbies and meeting places.

The usual mitigation techniques in the pinned thread will, as usual, mitigate the issue but it's not a solution.

 

[Ryan Dungey]

People forget nowadays that it takes longer to build a fictional car than a real one, simply because it would mean either:

• Creating something from scratch (this is mostly apparent with VGT's)
• Conceptualizing a "what if" racing version based on an existing vehicle which probably doesn't/is yet to exist in the real world
• Reimagining the car entirely

...and that's why you're more likely to see more real cars in updates than fictional racing versions of certain cars and to an extent, VGT's.

In terms of GranTurismo the VGT cars are some of the easier and quicker cars for them implement in game as a the manufacturers do all the designing and cad work etc. they don’t require laser scanning and other forms of data collection. The real world cars take longer as they have to spend more time accurately modelled them down to the 3D model and physics.

Also while on the topic of duplicates some of the Gr.3 cars which some of you seem to think PD made up are not made up at all 😂 take the Mazda Atenza GR.3 it’s actually the Mazda 6 Grand-AM IMSA race car just with a different livery and slightly different wing and dif interior other than that it’s exactly the same. There is a selection of other GR.3 cars that are slightly changed from other real life GT class car counterparts. This avoids licensing issues the team behind that car might of said no to it. Same thing happens in FPS games now devs slightly change something to avoid licensing. Some of the made up Gr.3 cars have actual real life basis.

Also the moaning about they should of made them race modifications. These cars are drastically changed exterior and interior that’s if it were a race modification PD would still need to spend the same amount of time on it as they would just modelling it as a separate car. So the point of “PD could of spent that time modelling another car instead” is redundant as that time would need to be spent on making the same car that’s currently a “duplicate” a race modification.

 

[Samus]

In terms of GranTurismo the VGT cars are some of the easier and quicker cars for them implement in game as a the manufacturers do all the designing and cad work etc. they don’t require laser scanning and other forms of data collection. The real world cars take longer as they have to spend more time accurately modelled them down to the 3D model and physics.

They still have to create a 3D model from the CAD file, same as any real world car. They dont just import CAD files and hey presto, it's done. CAD files are far too detailed, they're just used as an easy guide for the in-game model.

 

[Ryan Dungey]

They still have to create a 3D model from the CAD file, same as any real world car. They dont just import CAD files and hey presto, it's done. CAD files are far too detailed, they're just used as an easy guide for the in-game model.

It’s something that’s come up before on this forum. I’m pretty sure @Famine has bought it up before and stated that PD said VGT cars are one of the quicker things for them to create over real world cars. I used CAD as just a general term likely hood is that a lot of stuff would of been done in blender or other programs. Blender you can do exactly that and drop it across and hey presto your done except for texture work and physics etc the actual 3D mesh is ready to go.

 

[Samus]

It’s so mething that’s come up before on this forum. I’m pretty sure @Famine has bought it up before and stated that PD said VGT cars are one of the quicker things for them to create over real world cars. I used CAD as just a general term likely hood is that a lot of stuff would of been done in blender or other programs. Blender you can do exactly that and drop it across and hey presto your done except for texture work and physics etc the actual 3D mesh is ready to go.

You can drop a CAD file into a modelling program and quickly export a 3D model but it'd be useless for a game, it wouldn't be optimised. Every 3D asset in a video game has to be optimised to meet a polygon budget and a straight CAD model would be hundreds of millions of polygons, those things are insanely detailed down to the nuts inside the windscreen wiper mechanism. The VGT ones might not have been quite as detailed as a real car, but it still wouldn't have been suitable for use as-is.

I/we learned this when I was part of Project CARS 2 crowd funded development. They explained that even though they got CAD files for certain cars they still had to start their models from scratch. The CAD files were too detailed and the polygon meshes would have been incredibly inefficient because the CAD model was so intricate. Trying to get it down to the polygon budget for the highest detail model and then scale it down for the lower LODs would have been a waste of time.

Where it helped is instantly having all of the perfectly correct measurements for everything, there was no need to scan a real car, there was no need to just estimate if scanning wasn't possible. It was just a starting point, a reference.

So yeah, given a CAD model for a VGT and a CAD model for a real car I'm sure PD can create the VGT model a bit quicker, but not by that much. Both have to be started from scratch.

 

[Galvston]

I'm loving this game. Custom Races make great looking races graphically because of the weather options, and some competitive racing on the one make mode.

This game looks just unbelievable in motion, wish I could post pics but it will slow everyones web down

 

[yalk_DX]

I'm loving this game. Custom Races make great looking races graphically because of the weather options, and some competitive racing on the one make mode.

This game looks just unbelievable in motion, wish I could post pics but it will slow everyones web down

GT7 actually has the best gameplay/feel/graphics combo of any of the past GT games

 

[Theufcveteran]

GT7 is actually has the best gameplay/feel/graphics combo of any of the past GT games

GT7 has its problems but I just love how cars feel to drive, and the feedback on the DualSense is fantastic. In GTS, there wasn’t much feedback on the controller except for sliding, really no road feel at all. That kind of put me off driving, honestly, but in 7, I buy cars just to drive them, hear the engine and enjoy the visuals.

I really hope they keep going in this direction of stepping up the physics with each game. Not to say they haven’t improved them game over game but 6 -> Sport -> 7 have all had big changes to the physics, each for the better in my opinion.

PD are able to have detailed and realistic physics (maybe not the most realistic, but pretty good) while not being too difficult to control with a pad.

Contrast this with Project CARS, great game but I couldn’t play it - I just could not keep cars on the road. I fiddled with the controller settings, tried control setups online but I never felt comfortable with it. I hear Project CARS 2 was better in this regard, and 3 even more so. Perhaps a forth, sim focused game would play well on a controller.

 

[yalk_DX]

GT7 has its problems but I just love how cars feel to drive, and the feedback on the DualSense is fantastic. In GTS, there wasn’t much feedback on the controller except for sliding, really no road feel at all. That kind of put me off driving, honestly, but in 7, I buy cars just to drive them, hear the engine and enjoy the visuals.

I really hope they keep going in this direction of stepping up the physics with each game. Not to say they haven’t improved them game over game but 6 -> Sport -> 7 have all had big changes to the physics, each for the better in my opinion.

PD are able to have detailed and realistic physics (maybe not the most realistic, but pretty good) while not being too difficult to control with a pad.

Contrast this with Project CARS, great game but I couldn’t play it - I just could not keep cars on the road. I fiddled with the controller settings, tried control setups online but I never felt comfortable with it. I hear Project CARS 2 was better in this regard, and 3 even more so. Perhaps a forth, sim focused game would play well on a controller.

the feel on a pad is what impresses me the most. with wheels there's not as much of the abstraction, and IRL racing/driving skills will transfer over if you have the right equipment. but, and this is something the older GT games did well too, it's probably not a simple process in making pad usage competitive, responsive with feedback, and fun to use for people with a lot of different skill levels. the dualsense functions make it so that i don't think i'll ever reinstall GT sport with access to GT7, because i'll be a worse driver without being able to tap into some of the feedback the PS5 version of 7 introduced.

 

[Scaff]

Thoughts on 1.19 along with the Jalopnik article and other stuff.

 

[Monkey Man]

I really enjoy listening to your vids mate.

I think you should have at least commented briefly on the QoL improvements in last week's update. The lobby-race spectating fix, enhanced chat options, ability to save settings (I think the number is doubled from GTS) and of course the "Race Shop" in lobbies and other events spring to mind.

As I said, I enjoy your content; it just would've been nice to point to the aforementioned improvements for balance IMHO.

 

[pjmack]

I probably can't, because v1.19 seems to have introduced a new issue - which looks to be exacerbated by cross-generation play - affecting private lobbies and meeting places.

The usual mitigation techniques in the pinned thread will, as usual, mitigate the issue but it's not a solution.

@Famine any chance you could at least throw some commentary towards PD and explain the frustration that this whole issue is causing. League racing has all but ceased due to the issues and yet there’s been nothing about the difference between Sport Lobbies and private lobbies.
The side to side doesn’t happen in the dailies but the private lobbies appear to have much less bandwidth which could be causing these issues.

 

[Nuschel01]

League racing has all but ceased

 

[Ryan81]

PD simply can't be bothered with the hassle of scanning and adding real life models and so use VGTs and fake Gr.3, 4 & B cars. Cheaper too.

 

[RobertHammer]

PD simply can't be bothered with the hassle of scanning and adding real life models and so use VGTs and fake Gr.3, 4 & B cars. Cheaper too.

so you telling me that Porsche 918 Spyder is fake , Nissan Skyline Super Silhouette doesn't exist and the Maserati A6GCS/53 Spyder was just a dream 🤔

 

[pjmack]

Not in Australia it’s not.

 

[Nathan88]

GT7 has its problems but I just love how cars feel to drive, and the feedback on the DualSense is fantastic. In GTS, there wasn’t much feedback on the controller except for sliding, really no road feel at all. That kind of put me off driving, honestly, but in 7, I buy cars just to drive them, hear the engine and enjoy the visuals.

I really hope they keep going in this direction of stepping up the physics with each game. Not to say they haven’t improved them game over game but 6 -> Sport -> 7 have all had big changes to the physics, each for the better in my opinion.

PD are able to have detailed and realistic physics (maybe not the most realistic, but pretty good) while not being too difficult to control with a pad.

Contrast this with Project CARS, great game but I couldn’t play it - I just could not keep cars on the road. I fiddled with the controller settings, tried control setups online but I never felt comfortable with it. I hear Project CARS 2 was better in this regard, and 3 even more so. Perhaps a forth, sim focused game would play well on a controller.

After all these years I still don’t know what special sauce PD use to make the handling feel so good on a controller. It’s not just about responsiveness. Anyone can dial that into a game.

You can feel the tyre contact patch of each wheel and how even the smallest of changes affects the handling. In so many games, despite my best efforts, it often feels like I’m driving on ice. So difficult to tell when you’re about to lose grip.

All of the above is also why driving even the humblest of cars can be enjoyable. Especially when pushed to it’s limits.