Gran Turismo Sport delayed to 2017

[andyparks]

I think there spending too much time on garbage photo mode if I want to put cars on back grounds go buy photoshop this is a racing game

 

[05XR8]

Well, almost no footages from the PSX 2016. The next big event with an updated build is the Tokyo Auto Salon in two weeks. (GT is one of the main sponsors)

I'm thinking an S-FR and a Lexus GT500 as display cars.

 

[PzR Slim]

I think there spending too much time on garbage photo mode if I want to put cars on back grounds go buy photoshop this is a racing game

I do agree with you that for me they spent too much time on a feature that doesn't really interest me but it is quite a technological achievement. Plenty of people will get lots of enjoyment out of it. I would prefer it didn't exist.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

Personally, I don't buy into this big team/small team, big budget/small budget stuff.

As a consumer I care about 3 things.
How well the product suits me.
The quality of the product.
And the price of the product.

Sure, it can be frustrating to wait for a particular product to become available for public purchase.
But throwing around terms such as "incompetent" seems a bit over the top to me.

 

[PzR Slim]

Personally, I don't buy into this big team/small team, big budget/small budget stuff.

As a consumer I care about 3 things.
How well the product suits me.
The quality of the product.
And the price of the product.

Sure, it can be frustrating to wait for a particular product to become available for public purchase.
But throwing around terms such as "incompetent" seems a bit over the top to me.

It hard to disagree that the GT series has had incompetence associated with it in recent times. You mentioned quality as one of the things you care about. The quality of GT in recent times has been so inconsistent that incompetence is the only reason. A studio that can produce such stunning work at times has no excuse for some of the rubbish it pushed out alongside that stunning work.

 

[Northstar]

But throwing around terms such as "incompetent" seems a bit over the top to me.

Well, what other word would you use to describe a company that can only release something on time if they cut out advertised features and add them later via patches? Not to mention their terrible handling of standard cars, licenses and the VGT program.

I love PD, they're one of the main reasons I love racing as much as I do, but the current version seems completely different than the one I remember from when I was younger.

 

[Imari]

So the other studios are "incompetent" because they need experts to do it

If you like. On the other hand I would say that it's not incompetent to get an electrician in to fix your electrics. If you're a major factory that can afford to have a full time sparky on staff, cool. If you just need to hire a contractor in every now and then, fine. One might call it incompetent to pay someone for a full time job if you haven't got a whole person's worth of work for him to do.

The point is that the work gets done. If the work doesn't get done, then that's a problem. That's the incompetence I'm referring to. There are a number of ways to tackle the problem of making a game, and they all have their own pros and cons. But if you can't put out a game the size of GTS in four years with Sony's money and Polyphony's resources, then yeah, I'm OK with putting incompetence on that.

I do agree with you that for me they spent too much time on a feature that doesn't really interest me but it is quite a technological achievement. Plenty of people will get lots of enjoyment out of it. I would prefer it didn't exist.

Plenty of people may get enjoyment out of it, but it's not really a technological achievement. It's what people have been doing with Blender and Photoshop for years. There are probably a dozen industries that use related tech to do much more impressive things and have done for years. Making a user friendly interface is cute, but it also strips away most of the artistry so swings and roundabouts.

The reason no one has bothered to do it before is that plonking a 3d model in front of a photo isn't really that much of a thing. Frankly, the hyper-detailed photo-mode locations in GT5/6 were more impressive.

 

[Tornado]

It's moronic to want to try to perfect the game

I seem to recall that we were supposed to "expect perfection" after GT5's first delay.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I wonder how much of the rubbish that's happened since the last good game (GT4) is down to Kaz getting kicked upstairs in the organisation? Maybe he's taken his eye off the ball in recent times?

 

[05XR8]

Maybe he has been influenced by others. However, it has always been his MO for graphics above all else.

Imagine if he focused on car count for the three years of HDR development. Or focused, for the three years, on getting the game out in November.

It's the delusion of grandeur running joke in Star Wars. He had the idea in GT1, but does the game need him to move forward? He could be holding back progress and doesn't know it. I'm not being silly, but in my opinion, avatars are the biggest, most immersive component in gaming.

GT is essentially a FPRacer. By now, we should be able to have classic LeMans starts for online games. Overreving blow ups. Cars breaking down due to lack of servicing in GT Mode.

GTS should be that game, but it's a study for visuals.

 

[calvins48]

I wonder how much of the rubbish that's happened since the last good game (GT4) is down to Kaz getting kicked upstairs in the organisation? Maybe he's taken his eye off the ball in recent times?

I'd say GT5 was the last good game. The impact it had was very memorable and even with its flaws it was the best-selling PS3 exclusive of all time. Many good memories online with GT5.

Sadly it doesn't seem GTS will have a similar debut on the new Sony console. To me, Gran Turismo has always been about car collection. A virtual car museum. But GTS looks to be going down the eSports racing route. We already have racing games that focus on motorsport; Gran Turismo has always been about driving the car you currently have parked outside - driving the car the everyman has.

 

[TS050]

I think there spending too much time on garbage photo mode if I want to put cars on back grounds go buy photoshop this is a racing game

 

[Michelin Man]

I'd say GT5 was the last good game. The impact it had was very memorable and even with its flaws it was the best-selling PS3 exclusive of all time. Many good memories online with GT5.

Sadly it doesn't seem GTS will have a similar debut on the new Sony console. To me, Gran Turismo has always been about car collection. A virtual car museum. But GTS looks to be going down the eSports racing route. We already have racing games that focus on motorsport; Gran Turismo has always been about driving the car you currently have parked outside - driving the car the everyman has.

I agree about GT5. For me that was the last good GT, as that was the first ever game i got and played on PS3, and I remember being blown away by the graphics and just really excited by the whole package. So naturally, considering how similar GT6 and 5 were, I was a little dissapointed with GT6 and didn't quite get the same buzz.

I agree with the everyman car thing, that's was a key feature with GT and will remain to be so. But I admire the direction that GTSport is taking, something different that the series has never done before, and whilst there seems to be a focus on eSports, i believe there's more to it than it. Overall I'm feeling quite buzzed about it, something i havent felt for a GT game since GT5. I just hope that for "GT7" they return to that classic GT format of buying a car from the used dealership with a certain budget and working your way through an extensive career mode.

 

[Latin Avenger]

PS 5 Will be out before this washed up franchise will come out with GTS. Been with them since the beginning. How the mighty have fallen. It's embarrassing.

 

[calvins48]

I agree about GT5. For me that was the last good GT, as that was the first ever game i got and played on PS3, and I remember being blown away by the graphics and just really excited by the whole package. So naturally, considering how similar GT6 and 5 were, I was a little dissapointed with GT6 and didn't quite get the same buzz.

I agree with the everyman car thing, that's was a key feature with GT and will remain to be so. But I admire the direction that GTSport is taking, something different that the series has never done before, and whilst there seems to be a focus on eSports, i believe there's more to it than it. Overall I'm feeling quite buzzed about it, something i havent felt for a GT game since GT5. I just hope that for "GT7" they return to that classic GT format of buying a car from the used dealership with a certain budget and working your way through an extensive career mode.

GT Sport is GT7. So It'd be GT Sport 2 or GT8. Waiting for GT10 so they can call it GTX and have major Castrol sponsorship.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

It hard to disagree that the GT series has had incompetence associated with it in recent times. You mentioned quality as one of the things you care about. The quality of GT in recent times has been so inconsistent that incompetence is the only reason. A studio that can produce such stunning work at times has no excuse for some of the rubbish it pushed out alongside that stunning work.

I find most of what you have posted is subjective.
And that's fine.
I wasn't baiting for an argument, just posting my thoughts.

Let me put it another way.
I'm interested in a UHD player.
As it stands here in Australia I have 2 options, a Samsung or a Panasonic.
There has been talk of SONY releasing one.
I have a SONY TV, so I wait to see what it has to offer.

Now the latest news is it's targeted for release in around 9 or 10 months time.
3 options.
Buy one of the other brands.
Wait for the SONY.
Forget the whole thing.

But here's what I don't do.
Start digging in the appropriate SONY division to see how long it's been in development.
Similarly dig into the other brands.
Try to find out how many people are working on it.
Similarly with the other brands.
Try to find out what the SONY budget is.
Similarly with the other brands.
And then, if the numbers in my mind don't read well for SONY, start calling them incompetent.


As I say, to me, it's all unnecessary and over the top.

But each to their own I guess.

 

[synon]

Check this out. Kaz is actually future proofing(we've heard that before) GTS before a single TV can actually display GTS correctly. The technology isn't out yet. Meanwhile, I can just about see AC 3 or 4, PC 3 or 4, FM7/FH4 on next gen consoles while people are still playing GTS on PS4/Pro and can't afford the "proper" tv.

So, anyone who hasn't bothered to buy GTS, are then going to buy a PS4(if they sold it or have not bought one before or dust it off after plugging it in) a couple years from now and download a copy of GTS, just to experience real Ferrari Red? I doubt it.

It is silliy to innovate a game, for the purpose of vanity, that users can't even use properly "for a while", as Kaz put it.
To add, he's been at the visual side of the game (HDR?) for 3 years.

Even if a TV doesn't cover the whole gamut, there'll still be a noticeable improvement with a WCG source like GTS. And with the long lead time for asset creation, it makes sense that PD adopted the most general HDR standard.

Of course it is. No game (or any product) is ever perfect, and good creators know this. What you're trying to make is not a perfect game, but one that fairly represents the experience you want it to. Get it done, ship it and move on to the next iteration and try to do better.

If Kaz waited to perfect a game we'd still be waiting for GT5. I doubt he thinks the standards were perfect, but they were acceptable for the vision of the game he wanted to produce.

I think here "to perfect" means to "improve to one's satisfaction" rather than to make perfect.

 

[davidt33]

See people saying GT5 was the last best GT game. For me GT6 is the best.

 

[PzR Slim]

I find most of what you have posted is subjective.
And that's fine.
I wasn't baiting for an argument, just posting my thoughts.

Let me put it another way.
I'm interested in a UHD player.
As it stands here in Australia I have 2 options, a Samsung or a Panasonic.
There has been talk of SONY releasing one.
I have a SONY TV, so I wait to see what it has to offer.

Now the latest news is it's targeted for release in around 9 or 10 months time.
3 options.
Buy one of the other brands.
Wait for the SONY.
Forget the whole thing.

But here's what I don't do.
Start digging in the appropriate SONY division to see how long it's been in development.
Similarly dig into the other brands.
Try to find out how many people are working on it.
Similarly with the other brands.
Try to find out what the SONY budget is.
Similarly with the other brands.
And then, if the numbers in my mind don't read well for SONY, start calling them incompetent.


As I say, to me, it's all unnecessary and over the top.

But each to their own I guess.

Buy an Xbox One S

It's not subjective to call missing a release date and not having a lot of features promised available at release incompetent.

 

[Tired Tyres]

See people saying GT5 was the last best GT game. For me GT6 is the best.

Good for you. It was easily the worst GT in the history of the franchise for me. A race game with NO racing in it. That's a first.

GT5 was the second worst but at least it was a proper GT game if not in the same league as GT2,3 or 4.

 

[Soundtrack]

Even if a TV doesn't cover the whole gamut, there'll still be a noticeable improvement with a WCG source like GTS. And with the long lead time for asset creation, it makes sense that PD adopted the most general HDR standard.

There is nothing “general” about the adoption of HDR from PD, on the contrary. It’s really surprising a Sony first party studio can come up with such a silly objective actually, as they have about the most qualified personnel in house when it comes to imaging engineers.

Overshooting your output device is asking for trouble IMO. If you target the Guinness Book no problem, but if best achievable picture quality/fidelity is your objective then it becomes highly questionable. I’ll go to the point that their take on HDR (supposing the informations on PD’s site are accurate) conflicts with what the format is trying to achieve.

So that "Ferrari Red" will be incredibly accurate in Kaz's mental bubble sure, but will eventually be processed/truncated/lost by every single SUHD display on the market. That doesn't make him and his incredible team incompetent IMO, but highly inefficient.

 

[TS050]

A race game with NO racing in it. That's a first.

lmao, what?

This thread is ridiculous.

 

[Tired Tyres]

lmao, what?

This thread is ridiculous.

Do you actually think single file starts 20+ seconds behind the leader with nothing but moving chicanes in the way is RACING? Then the leader slows down to let you pass before speeding up again. Is that RACING?

 

[Tornado]

lmao, what?.

 

[Imari]

I think here "to perfect" means to "improve to one's satisfaction" rather than to make perfect.

Which is fine, but I think the problem with Kaz is that what defines his satisfaction seems to be a continually shifting bar.

He doesn't seem to sit down before a game and plan out exactly what the game will include, and then any ideas that come along after production starts get noted down for the next game. As we saw with GT5 and GT6, if he has an idea it's going in the game regardless.

This is why I have a problem with the GT long-dev-cycle-with-everything-and-the-kitchen-sink style. It goes off the rails so easily, and really requires someone with incredible knowledge of basically every part of the development process. It's possible with smaller indy games, but I think with modern AAAs and several hundred employees it's impossible. No one can have that much knowledge and skill, there isn't enough hours in the day.

And so we end up with these weird messes of games, as opposed to the other companies who are churning out minor tweaks every couple of years. But over time the minor tweaks build up into a significant improvement.

That's why I think Kaz needs to stop trying to add more to the game to make it better. Just make A game. ANY game. Just ship it.
It will be clear what needs fixing, and you fix it. Ship that.
It will be clear what needs to be added. Pick a couple of things. Ship that.
Rinse and repeat.

Consumers are happy because they're getting a constant flow of material.
The company is happy because it's getting a constant flow of money.
The developers are happy because they're getting constant feedback on what works and what doesn't.

And as a developer you're no longer putting all your eggs in one basket needing your five year long dev project to sell big because that's the only way you can recoup your costs. Much easier to sell multiple games in smaller numbers than one game at 10 million+.

I suspect it's how Forza manages to keep going despite never getting anywhere near the sales figures of GT. If you believe VGChartz they've sold ~25 million copies in the last ~10 years, which is pretty OK. Selling a couple million copies every year is actually fine.

 

[Samus]

I find most of what you have posted is subjective.
And that's fine.
I wasn't baiting for an argument, just posting my thoughts.

Let me put it another way.
I'm interested in a UHD player.
As it stands here in Australia I have 2 options, a Samsung or a Panasonic.
There has been talk of SONY releasing one.
I have a SONY TV, so I wait to see what it has to offer.

Now the latest news is it's targeted for release in around 9 or 10 months time.
3 options.
Buy one of the other brands.
Wait for the SONY.
Forget the whole thing.

But here's what I don't do.
Start digging in the appropriate SONY division to see how long it's been in development.
Similarly dig into the other brands.
Try to find out how many people are working on it.
Similarly with the other brands.
Try to find out what the SONY budget is.
Similarly with the other brands.
And then, if the numbers in my mind don't read well for SONY, start calling them incompetent.


As I say, to me, it's all unnecessary and over the top.

But each to their own I guess.

Well, this is a discussion forum dedicated to a video game. It's pretty nerdy and hardcore. We're not prospective customers looking to buy one product or the other, we're getting into (admittedly pointless) nitty gritty and anal details about the game and the people making it. That's why you get comparisons between productivity of studios, it's not because we're considering a purchase and it's something that matters in that. Obviously no sane person would do that. We're all already GT customers.

 

[synon]

So that "Ferrari Red" will be incredibly accurate in Kaz's mental bubble sure, but will eventually be processed/truncated/lost by every single SUHD display on the market. That doesn't make him and his incredible team incompetent IMO, but highly inefficient.

Is it inefficient? After all, colors are just numbers within the game, and it isn't any more work to have the correct number for the color than having an incorrect one. Of course, the colors had to be redone for any existing assets, but they would had to have been anyway when moving to any wider color space.

Overshooting your output device is asking for trouble IMO. If you target the Guinness Book no problem, but if best achievable picture quality/fidelity is your objective then it becomes highly questionable. I’ll go to the point that their take on HDR (supposing the informations on PD’s site are accurate) conflicts with what the format is trying to achieve.

Since the source and the output device will both be following the same standard color space, there shouldn't be any problems. The more saturated colors it can't display will be attenuated, but that's what would happen anyway with a smaller gamut.

Which is fine, but I think the problem with Kaz is that what defines his satisfaction seems to be a continually shifting bar.

He doesn't seem to sit down before a game and plan out exactly what the game will include, and then any ideas that come along after production starts get noted down for the next game. As we saw with GT5 and GT6, if he has an idea it's going in the game regardless.

Is there any evidence this delay is as a result of that? The fact that several features haven't been shown as yet seems to suggest that they are still having to be worked on.

This is why I have a problem with the GT long-dev-cycle-with-everything-and-the-kitchen-sink style. It goes off the rails so easily, and really requires someone with incredible knowledge of basically every part of the development process. It's possible with smaller indy games, but I think with modern AAAs and several hundred employees it's impossible. No one can have that much knowledge and skill, there isn't enough hours in the day.

Well, since AC, Pcars, DC (to name but a few ) all had delays indicates it's possibly an occupational hazard of development per se, rather than GT's particular type of development.

And so we end up with these weird messes of games, as opposed to the other companies who are churning out minor tweaks every couple of years. But over time the minor tweaks build up into a significant improvement.

That's why I think Kaz needs to stop trying to add more to the game to make it better. Just make A game. ANY game. Just ship it.
It will be clear what needs fixing, and you fix it. Ship that.
It will be clear what needs to be added. Pick a couple of things. Ship that.
Rinse and repeat.

Consumers are happy because they're getting a constant flow of material.
The company is happy because it's getting a constant flow of money.
The developers are happy because they're getting constant feedback on what works and what doesn't.

And as a developer you're no longer putting all your eggs in one basket needing your five year long dev project to sell big because that's the only way you can recoup your costs. Much easier to sell multiple games in smaller numbers than one game at 10 million+.

I suspect it's how Forza manages to keep going despite never getting anywhere near the sales figures of GT. If you believe VGChartz they've sold ~25 million copies in the last ~10 years, which is pretty OK. Selling a couple million copies every year is actually fine.

A common complaint about GT6 was that it was just GT5.5, not sufficiently differentiated from its predecessor. I'm not sure how many people would be satisfied with just minor incremental iterations. The last figures I saw for Forza 6 sales were between 1m-2m, likely to be over 2m now but possibly still wouldn't be classified as completely fine.

.

 

[Imari]

Is there any evidence this delay is as a result of that? The fact that several features haven't been shown as yet seems to suggest that they are still having to be worked on.

Of course there isn't. We didn't even hear about the delay of the beta until AFTER it was supposed to have been released. I'm merely noting that there's been a pattern with the last couple of games that appears to be something that is Polyphony's style. Whether they continue that in GTS is to be seen.

Well, since AC, Pcars, DC (to name but a few ) all had delays indicates it's possibly an occupational hazard of development per se, rather than GT's particular type of development.

Many developers have delays. Of course, most developers don't make a habit of it, and most ship complete games when they do. The developers that consistently ship late, buggy games with missing features we tend to make fun of.

A common complaint about GT6 was that it was just GT5.5, not sufficiently differentiated from its predecessor. I'm not sure how many people would be satisfied with just minor incremental iterations. The last figures I saw for Forza 6 sales were between 1m-2m, likely to be over 2m now but possibly still wouldn't be classified as completely fine.

As I said earlier, ~2m is maybe fine when you're putting out a game every year. Gran Turismo fans might be fine with incremental upgrades if they knew that there was always a new game just down the road. But with 3+ year dev cycles apparently being the norm for Polyphony, you can hardly blame them for pointing out that GT6 was hardly even an upgrade from GT5.

 

[mister dog]

Project CARS was in development for just about 4 years in total, give or take. GTS has been in development currently for 3 years, give or take. The difference is SMS had a tiny team at the very start which only grew modestly and they had a budget of approx €4 million with no major publisher backing them. PD in comparison have the backing of SONY and whilst we don't know their budget I'd wager it's significantly more than approx €1 million a year.

Don't forget they released on 3 different platforms too.

 

[Soundtrack]

...there shouldn't be any problems...

If ultimate image quality is your target you’re gonna make sure you adress your output device at the best of it’s ability. Overloading it and hope it will handle your precious content accurately is probably the worst thing you can do.

DCI P3 covers approximatively 70% of the Rec.2020 color gamut, and the top tier SUHD currently still do not cover it entirely. Are you suggesting you can get rid of (gamut clipping) a third of your content’s colour palette without that ever getting noticeable?

What about display mapping? Do you sincerely believe manufacturers are eager to waste that extra luminance/dynamic range in order to tune down in a visually pleasing manner content that is clearly off the charts it terms of HDR mastering good practice?

Maybe PD should take a visit to Sony’s TV headquarters and have a better look at how their latest top of the 2016 range handle slightly over ambitious HDR content...

... using a 10,000nits test pattern we could see that the TV wasn’t correctly mapping the content to the panel’s native peak brightness capability and was clipping content. The same was true for 4,000 nits, ...as with every other manufacturer except Samsung, Sony have decided to sacrifice correctly tone-mapping content graded at over 1,000 nits in favour of rolling off much higher up the PQ curve.

When it came to colour accuracy in HDR the ZD9 was a bit of a mixed bag, with it's performance against Rec. 2020 being a little disappointing. At 66% it covered slightly more of Rec. 2020 than the XD94 ...

It probably should be noted that despite it's flaws this particular HDR set still comes as "Highly Recommended".