Gran Turismo Sport vs. Assetto Corsa

[Scaff]

Not exactly, but GT is better presented that AC, yes. That's what I think.

So what title were you referring to with the comment that "After all, your game needs to be presentable..."?

After all the use of ellipsis at the end would suggest that more is to follow in that sentence and given that this is the GT vs AC thread it would have been reasonable to think it was AC.

 

[ScottPuss20]

So what title were you referring to with the comment that "After all, your game needs to be presentable..."?

After all the use of ellipsis at the end would suggest that more is to follow in that sentence and given that this is the GT vs AC thread it would have been reasonable to think it was AC.

I don't understand what you're saying. I said what I wanted to say, there's nothing more.

 

[brownninja97]

I want all of the cars/track in all those games in the best quality possible ( accuracy and details ), with official brand name tires ( modeled with each respective tire data ) then I would call it " Car & Rubber "

That would never be possible, some tyre manufacturer would get mad because Michelin is better then them right now. They are great normally and completely untouchable in the rain. Also the more realistic you get the more potential data to steal, its a dream that will likely never be possible.

 

[Scaff]

I don't understand what you're saying. I said what I wanted to say, there's nothing more.

So it has nothing at all to do with either if the titles being discussed in this thread and the ellipsis were simply used in error and nothing further was or should have been read into that.

OK.

 

[Pillo-san]

I did not wanted to post here because we(I and the majority of us here) know basically nothing ie had any first hand experience with GTS but here I go.

I had big issues With AC being just a understeer/ slide feast for a game. When I wanted to take a curve the car started to skid regardless of the speed I was going. But now when the game got updated to 1.8.1 the cars are behaving differently ie more naturally(better). They turn it now, wooohoooo. The rear steps out and the front like I said turns in, ok if you are going to fast it will understeer and skid until grip is found but it is so easy to find grip now. I do not understand what they had done with AC as the worst car is the best car now, R8 if you ask me. It was heavy, did not turn in at all and just skid all day long. Now I Just break, point and step on it, superb.

I was so annoyed at AC for being so unrealistic like if you had old dried out tires form 80s on the car. I was thrilled when Kaz said that a realistic sim game should not be hard to drive, I do not give a damn about singleplayer. I have been saying that online baked into the carrier is the future and look where it is going The only thing I do not like with games today is that they offer a lot of pure race cars that we have no way of checking if they behave like the real world equivalent/counterparts. Okey they can do damage model better then but when race cars are involved you can never compare the virtual car to the real car anymore. They can say that it is so realistic but we will never know now.

AC is a good trackday racing game but I really hope that GTS will be better in this regard, I want more trackday cars, for starting out and then climbing up to pure race cars. But, trackday cars are more important for me as we then can figure out if physics and such are spot on.

Hmm, dunno If I got what I set out to say in this thread because I am spinning around, no breakfast and to much coffee.

Oh yea, it should not be hard to drive a car in a sim game

 

[brownninja97]

I did not wanted to post here because we(I and the majority of us here) know basically nothing ie had any first hand experience with GTS but here I go.

I had big issues With AC being just a understeer/ slide feast for a game. When I wanted to take a curve the car started to skid regardless of the speed I was going. But now when the game got updated to 1.8.1 the cars are behaving differently ie more naturally(better). They turn it now, wooohoooo. The rear steps out and the front like I said turns in, ok if you are going to fast it will understeer and skid until grip is found but it is so easy to find grip now. I do not understand what they had done with AC as the worst car is the best car now, R8 if you ask me. It was heavy, did not turn in at all and just skid all day long. Now I Just break, point and step on it, superb.

I was so annoyed at AC for being so unrealistic like if you had old dried out tires form 80s on the car. I was thrilled when Kaz said that a realistic sim game should not be hard to drive, I do not give a damn about singleplayer. I have been saying that online baked into the carrier is the future and look where it is going The only thing I do not like with games today is that they offer a lot of pure race cars that we have no way of checking if they behave like the real world equivalent/counterparts. Okey they can do damage model better then but when race cars are involved you can never compare the virtual car to the real car anymore. They can say that it is so realistic but we will never know now.

AC is a good trackday racing game but I really hope that GTS will be better in this regard, I want more trackday cars, for starting out and then climbing up to pure race cars. But, trackday cars are more important for me as we then can figure out if physics and such are spot on.

Hmm, dunno If I got what I set out to say in this thread because I am spinning around, no breakfast and to much coffee.

Oh yea, it should not be hard to drive a car in a sim game

Oh yes if i remember correctly there was a problem where the tyres wouldnt get heat in them, they would stay at 40oc max, you put tyre blankets on them and they lose the heat before T1 so that could have been the issue you faced. As for realism there is a reason why the game is used by most VLN teams, Huracan Supertrofeo, Formula SAE, Abarth cup & Proton Porsche AG drivers. Its not the most realistic but for the price its a fantastic simulation and with the ACPRO side of the sorry you can get the bespoke applications to make it run with your car in mind. A friend of mine recently released a BTCC mod which then got backed my Honda and Ford's respective motorsport divisions. Kunos dont talk much about what happens behind the ACPRO scene but after digging a bit they do have a lot of manufactures relying on them, the support forum has a lot of professional drivers on it as well surprisingly. Hopefully GTS can come close to that benchmark, they cant match it because it simply requires too much processing power which they dont have because of their engine and the amount of dynamic objects. The main thing though for me is the FFB, i really want them to do well with that else it will be used for too long in my case sadly, once ive felt how nice it can be its hard to go back.

 

[Pillo-san]

Oh yes if i remember correctly there was a problem where the tyres wouldnt get heat in them, they would stay at 40oc max, you put tyre blankets on them and they lose the heat before T1 so that could have been the issue you faced. As for realism there is a reason why the game is used by most VLN teams, Huracan Supertrofeo, Formula SAE, Abarth cup & Proton Porsche AG drivers. Its not the most realistic but for the price its a fantastic simulation and with the ACPRO side of the sorry you can get the bespoke applications to make it run with your car in mind. A friend of mine recently released a BTCC mod which then got backed my Honda and Ford's respective motorsport divisions. Kunos dont talk much about what happens behind the ACPRO scene but after digging a bit they do have a lot of manufactures relying on them, the support forum has a lot of professional drivers on it as well surprisingly. Hopefully GTS can come close to that benchmark, they cant match it because it simply requires too much processing power which they dont have because of their engine and the amount of dynamic objects. The main thing though for me is the FFB, i really want them to do well with that else it will be used for too long in my case sadly, once ive felt how nice it can be its hard to go back.

Maybe it was tire temps issues that was the cause, but it got fixed for me when 1.8.1 released just recently. I played a four hour long session just minutes before it got updated to 1.8.1. so it was like night and day for me. I can not understand why there is/where so many fanbois out there saying that AC was the most realistic game to date when all the cars were doing was skid instead of turn. Simply stupid fanboism if you ask me.

Now I can say that it is a very good game, now when I enjoy driving any car but it took like two years. F40 is a grip beast, R8 is a point and squirt killer machine and X-bow is simply fantastic when it comes to give you feedback of what the car is doing.
Nissan GTR R35 though seems to Godlike now with those HR tires and I cant seem to switch to other tires which is a shame.

About the physics engine, if AC was indeed a real sim then they should not make value changes to the cars themselves expect for engine and brake and stiffness/flexiness of the car itself. Instead they should be doing changes to the physics engine itself of the game as the car it self is just a object in the physics engine of the game. And about mod cars, I do not use any as they probably are not tested/compared to a real car, data measured from the real car and transferred to the virtual model. Grip coefficient, aero coefficient, air temp/air humidity/oxygen density, body roll/stiffnes and such. simply every data possible to give as realistic representation of the real car it is possible. I doubt even the game developers/makers themselves are doing that to be fair, and I do not want to get it more arcade then it already is Tried the Caterham 7 the other day and it was not like a real Caterham I try to be a purist, so I have high hopes for GTS and still I know that GTS will not deliver. But I hope PD will do something special this time.

Sorry for more crap in this thread, as this post seems more like a AC whine post. But I think that after 400h I am allowed to whine about it as much as I want

 

[skazz]

Sounds like utopia.

If only us rabid GT fan club mortals could be as fair and balanced at all times as you JP.

Respect.

You know, it's very interesting to watch the tone of discussions around GTP. Generalizing horribly:

• The smaller game forums (pCARS, AC, F1, Driveclub, DiRT, etc...) are pretty much always civilized and friendly.
  
• Forza side is a challenge due to the obvious GT rivalry, but mostly it's a friendly place outside of "battlefront" GT versus Forza threads of course.
• GT subforums are where you see the full breadth of emotions from love through to hate.

It's logical, since GTP is invested in Gran Turismo above all else and we have far more GT players than others. But if like me your PS3 expired and your PS4 is sitting waiting for GTS, causing you to spend most time in the non-GT forums, then it can come as quite a shock


Back on topic: I'm totally on the side of lighting model importance myself. Given reasonably equal physics/gameplay, the game with the more realistic lighting model wins by a country mile for me.
I'm not sure why, but it seems to be a Sony thing to really nail realistic lighting, and one of the main reasons why I fell in love with Gran Turismo and also why I like Driveclub so much. Forza, pCARS, AC, Codemasters all try but fall short when it comes to that little gap between "good but clearly artificial lighting" to "wow, that could be real".

When you just want to admire the cars (e.g. in a good replay), the lighting model is hugely important. Some games just aren't worth even looking at a replay, whereas I could watch GT's replays for hours just enjoying the cars.

 

[brownninja97]

Maybe it was tire temps issues that was the cause, but it got fixed for me when 1.8.1 released just recently. I played a four hour long session just minutes before it got updated to 1.8.1. so it was like night and day for me. I can not understand why there is/where so many fanbois out there saying that AC was the most realistic game to date when all the car were doing was skid instead of turn. Simply stupid fanboism if you ask me.

Now I can say that it is a very good game, now when I enjoy driving any car but it took like two years. F40 is a grip beast, R8 is a point and squirt killer machine and X-bow is simply fantastic when it comes to give you feedback of what the car is doing.
Nissan GTR R35 though seems to Godlike now with those HR tires and I cant seem to switch to other tires which is a shame.

About the physics engine, if AC was indeed a real sim then they should not make value changes to the cars themselves expect for engine and brake and stiffness/flexiness of the car itself. Instead they should be doing changes to the physics engine itself of the game as the car it self is just a object in the physics engine of the game. And about mod cars, I do not use any as they probably are not tested/compared to a real car, data measured from the real car and transferred to the virtual model. Grip coefficient, aero coefficient, air temp/air humidity/oxygen density, body roll/stiffnes and such. simply every data possible to give as realistic representation of the real car it is possible. I doubt even the game developers/makers themselves are doing that to be fair, and I do not want to get it more arcade then it already is Tried the Caterham 7 the other day and it was not like a real Caterham I try to be a purist, so I have high hopes for GTS and still I know that GTS will not deliver. But I hope PD will do something special this time.

Sorry for more crap in this thread, as this post seems more like a AC whine post. But I think that after 400h I am allowed to whine about it as much as I want

Car physics changes themselves are still done mainly for GT cars as the game attempts to keep up with whatever BoP is happening in the real world at that time and as the developers find new data variables they can input more. On the topic of modding as a physics developer myself I can say you are partly wrong and partly ring, cant go into details as its way too long and few people would understand but in short terms you will be surprised by how much information you can get from a team as they love being in games though you have to take in mind it normally isnt the benchmark data its based on their setups. Doing a lot of calculations can get you very close to the real thing, its just a matter of how much the physics developer researches also AC supports everything you listed to a certain degree aka pikes peaks wouldnt reduce your power as much as it should currently. As for most realistic it is the most realistic on console, on pc its behind Rfactor 2 and any bespoke software but its still up there for racecars, for road cars it is unchallenged in the consumer market due to the roster of road car technology its built up but that is for the car itself, not the weather, not the road, not the sun etc etc. That being said there are still many areas it can improve on in terms of physics mainly on the track and tyre deformation but they introduce things which cant really be calculated easily and they need to be able to calculate this while the game is still playable for people meeting the minimum pc requirements and consoles which have lacking CPUs and those calculations will go straight to that cpu.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

On the topic of modding as a physics developer myself I can say you are partly wrong and partly ring, cant go into details as its way too long and few people would understand but in short terms you will be surprised by how much information you can get from a team as they love being in games though you have to take in mind it normally isnt the benchmark data its based on their setups.

I would like to hear these details, I'm sure there are some people here who can understand Do kingpin angle inclination, wheel offset and scrub radius used in physics calculation for suspension ? How does caster affect self centering force on the car ? So far, I haven't seen self centering works like when doing manji drift. How many different suspension model used in AC ? How does AC approach the turbo system simulation like sequential or paralel twin turbo ? I saw engine.ini, looks pretty basic turbo parameter :

[TURBO_0]
LAG_DN=0.970 ; Interpolation lag used slowing down the turbo
LAG_UP=0.992 ; Interpolation lag used to spin up the turbo
MAX_BOOST=1.68 ; Maximum boost generated. This value is never exceeded and multiply the torque like T=T*(1.0 + boost), so a boost of 2 will give you 3 times the torque at a given rpm.
WASTEGATE=1.66 ; Max level of boost before the wastegate does its things. 0 = no wastegate
DISPLAY_MAX_BOOST=1.66 ; Value used by display apps
REFERENCE_RPM=5600 ; The reference rpm where the turbo reaches maximum boost (at max gas pedal).
GAMMA=3.4 ; Turbo pressure sensitivity on accelerator pedal
COCKPIT_ADJUSTABLE=0 ; cockpit adjustable turbo pressure

As for most realistic it is the most realistic on console, on pc its behind Rfactor 2 and any bespoke software but its still up there for racecars, for road cars it is unchallenged in the consumer market due to the roster of road car technology its built up but that is for the car itself, not the weather, not the road, not the sun etc etc.

How good is Kunos implementation of ATTESA system on the Nissan R34 and R35 GTR or Haldex IV on the Aventador SV ? Do you model these system independently, like Super Hicas, ABS, active LSD, speaking LSD, do Kunos make specific LSD model like those on MX5 ( ND/NC ) and RX7 FD or the active LSD on R34 GTR and R35 GTR ? I'm guessing these are simplified.

Do you work for Kunos ?

 

[Johnnypenso]

I would like to hear these details, I'm sure there are some people here who can understand Do kingpin angle inclination, wheel offset and scrub radius used in physics calculation for suspension ? How does caster affect self centering force on the car ? So far, I haven't seen self centering works like when doing manji drift. How many different suspension model used in AC ? How does AC approach the turbo system simulation like sequential or paralel twin turbo ? I saw engine.ini, looks pretty basic turbo parameter :

[TURBO_0]
LAG_DN=0.970 ; Interpolation lag used slowing down the turbo
LAG_UP=0.992 ; Interpolation lag used to spin up the turbo
MAX_BOOST=1.68 ; Maximum boost generated. This value is never exceeded and multiply the torque like T=T*(1.0 + boost), so a boost of 2 will give you 3 times the torque at a given rpm.
WASTEGATE=1.66 ; Max level of boost before the wastegate does its things. 0 = no wastegate
DISPLAY_MAX_BOOST=1.66 ; Value used by display apps
REFERENCE_RPM=5600 ; The reference rpm where the turbo reaches maximum boost (at max gas pedal).
GAMMA=3.4 ; Turbo pressure sensitivity on accelerator pedal
COCKPIT_ADJUSTABLE=0 ; cockpit adjustable turbo pressure




How good is Kunos implementation of ATTESA system on the Nissan R34 and R35 GTR or Haldex IV on the Aventador SV ? Do you model these system independently, like Super Hicas, ABS, active LSD, speaking LSD, do Kunos make specific LSD model like those on MX5 ( ND/NC ) and RX7 FD or the active LSD on R34 GTR and R35 GTR ? I'm guessing these are simplified.

Do you work for Kunos ?

Unless we have the same information from GTSport there's no way to compare these two games in this regard, which is kind of the point of this thread.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Unless we have the same information from GTSport there's no way to compare these two games in this regard, which is kind of the point of this thread.

I'm asking brownninja about what he knows ( the details ), let him answer the question, I have been meaning to do this If he want, he can answer on different threads.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'm asking brownninja about what he knows ( the details ), let him answer the question, I have been meaning to do this If he want, he can answer on different threads.

The point of this thread is to compare the two games. If you want technical data on a single game maybe it's better suited to ask in the AC Forums or through a PM since there's literally nothing on the GT side to compare it to.

 

[brownninja97]

I'm asking brownninja about what he knows ( the details ), let him answer the question, I have been meaning to do this If he want, he can answer on different threads.

Thats a minefield I'm not touching it.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Thats a minefield I'm not touching it.

Okay, mine field huh, looks like I will get similar answer from AC forum then, guess I need to have the game to find out myself

 

[Donnced]

Okay, mine field huh, looks like I will get similar answer from AC forum then, guess I need to have the game to find out myself

I don't remember where i read it,but kunos guys said that the put a great effort implanting the electronic LSD system of the Nissan GT-R and that it was difficult to have a great simulation of it..but they are happy to did it and didn't see other game doing it on the same level.

But, like JP said, ik the official forum you maybe find more information about it.

You can also subscribe you to the youtube chanel from Stefano Casillo and the day his doing a direct streaming you can ask for it directly to him.



Or you can ask on his twitter account :

https://mobile.twitter.com/kunosstefano?lang=es

Or you can also ask to the Greek dev,Aris.

https://mobile.twitter.com/aristotelis?lang=es

Or Luca, that is Sound designer and technical support for kunos

https://mobile.twitter.com/luca_sodano?lang=es

Good luck mate

 

[queleuleu]

I don't remember where i read it,but kunos guys said that the put a great effort implanting the electronic LSD system of the Nissan GT-R and that it was difficult to have a great simulation of it..but they are happy to did it and didn't see other game doing it on the same level.

But, like JP said, ik the official forum you maybe find more information about it.

You can also subscribe you to the youtube chanel from Stefano Casillo and the day his doing a direct streaming you can ask for it directly to him.



Or you can ask on his twitter account :

https://mobile.twitter.com/kunosstefano?lang=es

Or you can also ask to the Greek dev,Aris.

https://mobile.twitter.com/aristotelis?lang=es

Or Luca, that is Sound designer and technical support for kunos

https://mobile.twitter.com/luca_sodano?lang=es

Good luck mate

Woah... Imagine Kaz doing a livestream, talking about why the delay, how works Poly...

 

[brownninja97]

I don't remember where i read it,but kunos guys said that the put a great effort implanting the electronic LSD system of the Nissan GT-R and that it was difficult to have a great simulation of it..but they are happy to did it and didn't see other game doing it on the same level.

But, like JP said, ik the official forum you maybe find more information about it.

You can also subscribe you to the youtube chanel from Stefano Casillo and the day his doing a direct streaming you can ask for it directly to him.



Or you can ask on his twitter account :

https://mobile.twitter.com/kunosstefano?lang=es

Or you can also ask to the Greek dev,Aris.

https://mobile.twitter.com/aristotelis?lang=es

Or Luca, that is Sound designer and technical support for kunos

https://mobile.twitter.com/luca_sodano?lang=es

Good luck mate

The GTR Nismo is pretty good but the R34 in AC is based on a lot of the technology off the R32 from what ive been told. I know nothing about either cars so I cant comment on whether its true or not.

 

[eran0004]

Woah... Imagine Kaz doing a livestream, talking about why the delay, how works Poly...

He did something similar prior to the release of GT5, I think it was a live Twitter Q&A session. The black standard interiors came as a result of that.

 

[Donnced]

He did something similar prior to the release of GT5, I think it was a live Twitter Q&A session. The black standard interiors came as a result of that.

Mmmmmm, Stefano Casillo does a streaming at least one each month, explaining technical details and stuff while people can ask him for explanation of features and more.
Then you got their twitter accounts and their official forums where you can report bugs or make suggestions.

I really would to se PD do this kind of attention towards his users.. In fact he can learn a lot of this little Italian studio

 

[eran0004]

Mmmmmm, Stefano Casillo does a streaming at least one each month, explaining technical details and stuff while people can ask him for explanation of features and more.
Then you got their twitter accounts and their official forums where you can report bugs or make suggestions.

Good for them 👍

 

[SlimCharles]

Woah... Imagine Kaz doing a livestream, talking about why the delay, how works Poly...

Very very difficult to a company so away from their users to do something like that. If someday they decide is a good idea to aproach to their users, they will have to do it step by step. Polyphony doesnt have a twitter account, and kaz´s twitter is in japanese.

Imagine if they do a streaming like Stefano every week. All the coments would be "Why we keep sounds from the PSX era?" "Why you take so long for every game?" and more things that are unacceptable. Is like the kid that broke a glass or doesnt do his homework. He doesnt want to talk about that to his parents. Yamauchi doesnt expose himself like kunos, evolution, codemasters rally team or SMS.

Rule: the more a developer exposes itself to its costumers, the more the game gets better.

 

[jm79]

Very very difficult to a company so away from their users to do something like that. If someday they decide is a good idea to aproach to their users, they will have to do it step by step. Polyphony doesnt have a twitter account, and kaz´s twitter is in japanese.

Imagine if they do a streaming like Stefano every week. All the coments would be "Why we keep sounds from the PSX era?" "Why you take so long for every game?" and more things that are unacceptable. Is like the kid that broke a glass or doesnt do his homework. He doesnt want to talk about that to his parents. Yamauchi doesnt expose himself like kunos, evolution, codemasters rally team or SMS.

Rule: the more a developer exposes itself to its costumers, the more the game gets better.

That rule is not true in my opinion. There are occasions when small devs, or indie devs, allow more direct contact, receive feedback or whatever. But they are rare, and many outstanding games have been made with none whatsoever.

I think that PD could implement a better PR strategy, certainly, but at the end of the day, it's mostly just that, PR. It's to fend off fan entitlement, by (mostly) pretending that you are involved and valued. To suggest that PD are deliberately not 'exposing' themselves because they are worried the game isn't good is a little bit of a stretch.

Here's a rewrite of your rule to make it slightly more accurate:

Rule: the more a developer exposes itself to its costumers, the more the customers perceive the game to be better.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I think that PD could implement a better PR strategy, certainly, but at the end of the day, it's mostly just that, PR. It's to fend off fan entitlement, by (mostly) pretending that you are involved and valued. To suggest that PD are deliberately not 'exposing' themselves because they are worried the game isn't good is a little bit of a stretch:

If this is mostly true, then Kunos is definitely the exception to the rule. They have demonstrated time and time again in all forms of social media that they listen to the customers, value their input, and make changes to the game based on that input.

 

[jm79]

If this is mostly true, then Kunos is definitely the exception to the rule. They have demonstrated time and time again in all forms of social media that they listen to the customers, value their input, and make changes to the game based on that input.

Do you have a poster of Stefano on your wall, JP?

 

[Donnced]

@Johnnypenso here goes a good photo for making a poster of Stefano!

But your right, they answer your question and listen to the opinions of the users, always if your polite to the team (what is completely logic)

 

[jm79]

Don't mention it

 

[brownninja97]

Simple difference though is that as larger corporations and stakeholders join the amount of limitations increase, many devs began to say less and less constructive things that people actually cared about. For example SMS announced every license they had for Pcars1 a long time before it came out, we havent heard much about this new one apart from Ferrari and Lamborghini, with them wanting to support a crazy amount of classes you would expect them to say a bit more then that but maybe that is just me.

It would be great to say that Kunos are different but in the grand scheme of things they are still very small compared to the competition. If and when they get larger they might slowly change, maybe they already are starting to change, for example the first dream pack DP#1 got a teaser multiple times a week at least two months before it came out, the same cant be said about the Porsche dlc so far.

However Stefano is one of those guys that just does take rubbish from people so he could be the rule breaker.