GT Racing - GT1, GT3, Blancpain Endurance Series & National GT SeriesSports Cars

[20832]

https://de.surveymonkey.com/r/Nuerburgring_Fan_survey_safety_Nordschleife

A survey about future safety measures on the Nordschleife, hopefully some of you parttake as I think a lot of people are interested in the overall developments on the Nordschleife and it's racing on there.

 

[Bo]

Pretty quick survey. It's going to get abused a lot by the "Save the 'Ring" crowd who seem to be wholeheartedly against absolutely everything that is currently saving the 'Ring.

My choices were:

Second Fence - Suitable.
Increased fencing - Suitable.
Chicanes - Not suitable.
Track modifications - Not suitable.
Speed limits - Unsure (completely dependent on what else they do; if they substantially cap GT3 or bin it altogether, there's no need, but they work if they're still adamant on running as they are now).
Aero limit - Suitable.
Power cap - Suitable.

Disappointed there wasn't a final option of "Tell the SP9 teams to get lost while you still can and save the N24 and VLN from a completely avoidable apocalypse".

 

[20832]

My choices were:

Second Fence - Suitable.
Increased fencing - Suitable.
Chicanes - Not suitable.
Track modifications - Not suitable.
Speed limits - Unsure (completely dependent on what else they do; if they substantially cap GT3 or bin it altogether, there's no need, but they work if they're still adamant on running as they are now).
Aero limit - Suitable.
Power cap - Suitable.

I personally see myself as a very strong advocate of the Save the Ring movement, however my answers are completely the same as yours, so yaaay

But then again the Save The Ring movement isn't really about keeping the 'Ring as it is, but rather from using the Nürburgring and turning it into a commercialized zone, where the actual purpose of the race track is being blurred, it says specifically "Let the Nürburgring be motorsport"

 

[trustjab]

This weekend's VLN race has debuts for the Mercedes AMG GT3 and Lexus RC F GT3 (european debut).

 

[05XR8]

http://www.speedcafe.com/2015/07/03/new-aus-gt-driver-seedings-set-for-townsville/

Can't wait for Betty (Erebus Motorsport GT) to upgrade her "babies".

 

[Bo]

Lexus RC F GT3 (european debut).

Yay, finally homologated. What BoP is it running to? Since GT300 is equal to Blancpain, would it be a case of copy/paste/-5% BHP?

 

[Tired Tyres]

Pretty quick survey. It's going to get abused a lot by the "Save the 'Ring" crowd who seem to be wholeheartedly against absolutely everything that is currently saving the 'Ring.

My choices were:

Second Fence - Suitable.
Increased fencing - Suitable.
Chicanes - Not suitable.
Track modifications - Not suitable.
Speed limits - Unsure (completely dependent on what else they do; if they substantially cap GT3 or bin it altogether, there's no need, but they work if they're still adamant on running as they are now).
Aero limit - Suitable.
Power cap - Suitable.

Disappointed there wasn't a final option of "Tell the SP9 teams to get lost while you still can and save the N24 and VLN from a completely avoidable apocalypse".

There was a text box to add your own change. I told them to consider the removal of SP9, SP8 and SP7 as they are too fast for the track.

I had broadly the same answers as you but said no to Speed Limits and no sure about aero kits.

 

[sgohsixthree]

This weekend's VLN race has debuts for the Mercedes AMG GT3 and Lexus RC F GT3 (european debut).

I've never caught a VLN race, are they livestreamed? Really looking forward to those.

 

[ThmsNeth]

I've never caught a VLN race, are they livestreamed? Really looking forward to those.

Yes they are live streamed @ http://www.vln.de
But most of the time that I know there is only coverage from the GP circuit.
The last VLN races were live streamed.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Second FIA Fence - Not Suitable
Additional fencing - Suitable
Chicanes - Not sure
Armco/Curb mods - Suitable
Speed limits - Suitable
Aero pack - Suitable
Power limit - Suitable

 

[TDZdave]

I think broadly that GT3 cars have to much aero grip and to much power anyway, id also put them on a cheaper tire and make them all a little heavier,

 

[catamount39]

I think broadly that GT3 cars have to much aero grip and to much power anyway, id also put them on a cheaper tire and make them all a little heavier,

2800 pounds is good enough. The fix is simple, just lean the rules towards a GTE car.

 

[Bo]

9 years later...

It's somewhere between depressing and downright laughable.

 

[catamount39]

9 years later...

It's somewhere between depressing and downright laughable.

....dude that top one isn't a GT3...that's a bloody cup car.

These are basically the original GT3's in terms of looks:

 

[Bo]

....dude that top one isn't a GT3...that's a bloody cup car.

That is the car that competed in the FIA GT3 European Championship until 2010. You can even read it off the number backing sticker.

 

[catamount39]

That is the car that competed in the FIA GT3 European Championship until 2010. You can even read it off the number backing sticker.

I think this 2008 Morgan Aero 8 GT3 would like to take a laugh at that sad Porsche Cup Car. That car is on the absolute wrong end of the spectrum. That's as bad as the Porsche America GT things in IMSA.

Guys seriously give it a rest...GT3 isn't in danger. It's the most popular and largest class around the entire globe. It's a great spec of racing and is not going to destroy itself. Can't people just enjoy a good thing for crying out loud?

 

[Bo]

Honestly, here's my ideal GT3 regs:

Car has to be a production supercar/sports car, no special editions or limited editions allowed.
Small diffuser, all dimensions very tightly controlled.
Small splitter, all dimensions very tightly controlled.
Spec wing, doesn't need to be too large.
Roll cage/fire extinguisher/kill switch installed, simply stripped out and race prepped (like a production GT car).
All panels must use the same dimensions as the original road car parts, all bumper parts must form a continuous unbroken surface and any changes in form must be within a certain window (eliminates the possibility of pseudo-diveplanes moulded into the cars).
FIA fuel tank installed.
Spec slicks.
Traction control/ABS.

BoP'd and done.

 

[catamount39]

All GT3's are different...just look at the new Merc'! Does this look like a crazy bonkers too much aero car to you?

And then there is the Bentley:

Honestly, here's my ideal GT3 regs:

Car has to be a production supercar/sports car, no special editions or limited editions allowed.
Small diffuser, all dimensions very tightly controlled.
Small splitter, all dimensions very tightly controlled.
Spec wing, doesn't need to be too large.
Roll cage/fire extinguisher/kill switch installed, simply stripped out and race prepped (like a production GT car).
All panels must use the same dimensions as the original road car parts, all bumper parts must form a continuous unbroken surface and any changes in form must be within a certain window (eliminates the possibility of pseudo-diveplanes moulded into the cars).
FIA fuel tank installed.
Spec slicks.
Traction control/ABS.

BoP'd and done.

So you want GT4? Sorry that already exists. A race car needs to look the part. I'm sorry but GT3 is not a grass roots thing it has taken the place of GT2 and GTE has taken the place of GT1. If you want to watch a street car there is GT4. These are actual racecars plain and simple. The cars are half the cost of a GTE. So what's the problem? A GT4 costs a pretty penny too. For SEVEN YEARS it has been a respectable GT fight amongst hardcore cars. There are about 10-12 GT3 manufactures. That's the most a class has had in decades. GT4 only has about 4-5. Which one do you think is working?

Those regs would kill GT3 for me. If you're gonna try and neuter GT3...just give it the aero regs from GTE. I don't want to watch a bunch cars that look like they were customized in GT6.

 

[Bo]

Guys seriously give it a rest...GT3 isn't in danger.

It's a danger to every series that currently plunges all their resources into fielding them.

It's the most popular and largest class around the entire globe.

This is why. ^

It's a great spec of racing and is not going to destroy itself.

It is going to destroy itself. It's too big for its own good, the problem's called over-expansion and it's only going to hit home when it's too late. All categories die. Take Super Touring as an example, that was heralded as the greatest touring car formula imaginable and ended up nearly killing BTCC and left several other floundering. GT3 will die within the next 5 years, but if organisers don't treat it as the be all and end all of motorsport, they may have a chance of survival when things go down the drain.

Can't people just enjoy a good thing for crying out loud?

Might be good to watch, but it's an out of control mess in terms of regulations.

All GT3's are different...just look at the new Merc'! Does this look like a crazy bonkers too much aero car to you?

It's not exactly what it looks like, but what's underneath and what it's actually capable of. These cars are far quicker than they were ever intended to go or should be going.

So you want GT4? Sorry that already exists.

Ironically, that pretty much was GT3 upon its inception - it was the aero development windows and waivers that got us these pseudo-prototypes. The difference between GT4 and GT3 shouldn't be the concept, but the cars they're based upon... as it was upon its inception.

A race car needs to look the part.

Looking good isn't going to give you a worthwhile, fruitful and long-lived formula.

If you a road car with stickers on it...it's a respectable class called Touring Cars.

a) GT cars are a branch of touring cars.
b) Look at TC1 and tell me that matches the thing you're describing.
c) Again, the flaw in the argument is that this was GT3 on its inception.

 

[catamount39]

It's a danger to every series that currently plunges all their resources into fielding them.

This is why. ^

It is going to destroy itself. It's too big for its own good, the problem's called over-expansion and it's only going to hit home when it's too late. All categories die. Take Super Touring as an example, that was heralded as the greatest touring car formula imaginable and ended up nearly killing BTCC and left several other floundering. GT3 will die within the next 5 years, but if organisers don't treat it as the be all and end all of motorsport, they may have a chance of survival when things go down the drain.

Might be good to watch, but it's an out of control mess in terms of regulations.

It's not exactly what it looks like, but what's underneath and what it's actually capable of. These cars are far quicker than they were ever intended to go or should be going.

Ironically, that pretty much was GT3 upon its inception - it was the aero development windows and waivers that got us these pseudo-prototypes. The difference between GT4 and GT3 shouldn't be the concept, but the cars they're based upon... as it was upon its inception.

Looking good isn't going to give you a worthwhile, fruitful and long-lived formula.

a) GT cars are a branch of touring cars.
b) Look at TC1 and tell me that matches the thing you're describing.
c) Again, the flaw in the argument is that this was GT3 on its inception.

Yes categories have come and gone but things have been changing. GT3 won't die out in 5 years that's absurd. Besides look at GT2. GT2 has been roughly the same since the late 90's and has been around and will continue to be around. It out lived GT1 and has a bright future ahead of itself. It's gone through nae changes and different manufactures but it has been a great consistent category just going through different names. GT3's going to stay around because every car has an equal chance when the flag flies. The costs rose but have stayed the same since 2010 roughly. The cars are faster but so what? The FIA has been massaging the regs of all categories and my bet is that GT3 will soon get the GTE aero regs roughly. So they're insanely fast. Just drop some power and take some aero away. Don't make them bloody road cars with wings. Yes I know they start as road car chassis' from the production line, that's fine, GTE's are as well. If you want slow GT3 down, just use the current GTE rules.

To put it simply: If you want to slow GT3, make it the cheaper GTE not some ridiculous thing like Grand-Am GT (the Mazda RX-8 gets a pass for its rotary and that was the one I loved to bits). GTE and GT3 are the only categories of GT which are worth their salt.
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On to more pleasant matters...Turner Motorsport are preparing for their new BMW M6 GT3's. 👍
http://www.racer.com/imsa/item/118815-imsa-turner-motorsport-prepping-for-bmw-m6-gt3-assault

 

[CodeRedR51]

Take Super Touring as an example, that was heralded as the greatest touring car formula imaginable and ended up nearly killing BTCC and left several other floundering.

Such a shame, IMHO those were the best years for BTCC. The cars were fantastic.

 

[Bo]

Yes categories have come and gone but things have been changing. GT3 won't die out in 5 years that's absurd.

Regulations have a rough lifespan of 10 years. Massive expansion will increase their lifespan marginally, but their deaths will be all the more abrupt and disastrous. If GT3 survives more than 5 years in its current state, it'll be a pure miracle or the class will be well on its way out.

Besides look at GT2. GT2 has been roughly the same since the late 90's

GT2 doesn't exist anymore, and it was altered quite significantly throughout its lifespan to get to GTE. It's also a terrible comparison, because it never spiraled wildly out of control and became something it very much wasn't in the first place. If you want a good comparison, look at Super Touring - they're going through all the same steps as each other.

and has a bright future ahead of itself.

How?

The cars are faster but so what?

Because it's a gentleman, customer formula? It's not a few tenths faster, it's like different category faster. The fact that:

The FIA has been massaging the regs of all categories

shows how stupid it's become. GTE should be the top level - it is considerably more expensive, it is a factory team formula, and the cars are ground-up racing cars. GT3 cars were designed as a largely production based formula, and they're desperately clinging on to that as they touch GTE in terms of performance. Half the price, for gentleman drivers, with factory teams involved, with road car parts instead of largely specialised hardware, being very nearly as fast as the very top tier? How can you not see the major flaws in that?

So they're insanely fast.

...It's a customer/gentleman driver/production based formula. It's everything "insanely fast" goes against.

If you want slow GT3 down, just use the current GTE rules.

With more downforce? With more specialised parts? With no driver aids? That's a lethal concoction.

Don't make them bloody road cars with wings.

That's what they were at inception, that's what they're still trying to be, the class was just fine back then. You still don't seem to get that.

None of this is about what you would like to see. This is about making sure the end of this "golden era" doesn't spell an international collapse for GT racing, leaving us scratching our heads about what to do next. It will die. All categories do. There is no getting away from that fact. But what you can do is make sure the short-term goals don't outweigh the long term ones - and nothing indicates that several major GT series will have a life after GT3 goes.

Such a shame, IMHO those were the best years for BTCC. The cars were fantastic.

Same thoughts echoed here, but at least they got BTC-T out quickly - they were quite a successful set of regulations, and it kept an almost completely dead series on track.

 

[catamount39]

Regulations have a rough lifespan of 10 years. Massive expansion will increase their lifespan marginally, but their deaths will be all the more abrupt and disastrous. If GT3 survives more than 5 years in its current state, it'll be a pure miracle or the class will be well on its way out.

GT2 doesn't exist anymore, and it was altered quite significantly throughout its lifespan to get to GTE. It's also a terrible comparison, because it never spiraled wildly out of control and became something it very much wasn't in the first place. If you want a good comparison, look at Super Touring - they're going through all the same steps as each other.

How?

Because it's a gentleman, customer formula? It's not a few tenths faster, it's like different category faster. The fact that:

shows how stupid it's become. GTE should be the top level - it is considerably more expensive, it is a factory team formula, and the cars are ground-up racing cars. GT3 cars were designed as a largely production based formula, and they're desperately clinging on to that as they touch GTE in terms of performance. Half the price, for gentleman drivers, with factory teams involved, with road car parts instead of largely specialised hardware, being very nearly as fast as the very top tier? How can you not see the major flaws in that?

...It's a customer/gentleman driver/production based formula. It's everything "insanely fast" goes against.

With more downforce? With more specialised parts? With no driver aids? That's a lethal concoction.

That's what they were at inception, that's what they're still trying to be, the class was just fine back then. You still don't seem to get that.

None of this is about what you would like to see. This is about making sure the end of this "golden era" doesn't spell an international collapse for GT racing, leaving us scratching our heads about what to do next. It will die. All categories do. There is no getting away from that fact. But what you can do is make sure the short-term goals don't outweigh the long term ones - and nothing indicates that several major GT series will have a life after GT3 goes.

Same thoughts echoed here, but at least they got BTC-T out quickly - they were quite a successful set of regulations, and it kept an almost completely dead series on track.

First off....GTE's are not ground up racecars...that's the best joke this year:


Secondly, a terrible comparison? It's a GT category that has survived hasn't it? And oh big deal the regs have changed here and there, it's still GT2 at the core. And its evolving to an even better spec next year.

Third...GTE CARS HAVE TCS. Have you not watched an IMSA or WEC race? What's the big deal with using the aero regs from GTE? GT3's have an ADVANTAGE against GTE's because they have more downforce. So take out downforce and limit them to 500bhp. GT3's have been turned into GTE's...so why not reverse engineer a GTE into GT3? Just add ABS and TCS. For example...Look at the Viper GT3 for Christ sake. It's really similar to the GTE.

Fourth, the class was not fine at its inception...it was like a weirder version of the World Challenge in a bad way.

Fifth, a category's life span now days is slightly different. WRC has been the same for about 12 years. LMP1 has evolved in a good way since its days as LMP900 for over 16 years now. And GT2 has evolved and become the best spec in the WEC (there are privateers btw).

Sixth, GTE IS THE TOP LEVEL. Look at the TUSCC and the WEC.

 

[The Stig Farmer]

Fourth, the class was not fine at its inception...it was like a weirder version of the World Challenge in a bad way.

WRC has been the same for about 12 years.

lol. No. No no no not at all.

 

[catamount39]

lol. No. No no no not at all.

Hatchbacks doe. Yeah actually...remembering the WRC it has changed...but it's been stable for about 10 years at the least.

 

[The Stig Farmer]

Hatchbacks doe.

Did you miss when they decided to boost some Super 2000 cars up to replace the old 2-litres?

 

[catamount39]

Did you miss when they decided to boost some Super 2000 cars up to replace the old 2-litres?

I'm 19 so I probably did. What's stupid is I just watched something on the WRC through the years the other day... . College has hurt my memory dang it.


Besides the WRC note though that point stands.

 

[Bo]

First off....GTE's are not ground up racecars...that's the best joke this year:

For something that naturally has to be production based, they have the vast majority of parts specialised.

Secondly, a terrible comparison? It's a GT category that has survived hasn't it? And oh big deal the regs have changed here and there, it's still GT2 at the core. And its evolving to an even better spec next year.

because it never spiraled wildly out of control and became something it very much wasn't in the first place. If you want a good comparison, look at Super Touring - they're going through all the same steps as each other.

Third...GTE CARS HAVE TCS. Have you not watched an IMSA or WEC race?

It was a bit of hyperbole, but the point still stands that GT3 cars are designed to be driven by gentleman drivers.

What's the big deal with using the aero regs from GTE? GT3's have an ADVANTAGE against GTE's because they have more downforce.

Fourth, the class was not fine at its inception...it was like a weirder version of the World Challenge in a bad way.

What GT3 were you watching?

LMP1 has evolved in a good way since its days as LMP900 for over 16 years now.

It's the same in name only, and again, it has never over-expanded. You're still missing this. Still.

Sixth, GTE IS THE TOP LEVEL. Look at the TUSCC and the WEC.

Erm... thanks for telling me the obvious.

 

[catamount39]

For something that naturally has to be production based, they have the vast majority of parts specialised.



It was a bit of hyperbole, but the point still stands that GT3 cars are designed to be driven by gentleman drivers.

View attachment 403187

What GT3 were you watching?

It's the same in name only, and again, it has never over-expanded. You're still missing this. Still.

Erm... thanks for telling me the obvious.

Well you said GTE wasn't the top level...and that threw me like..."what you smokin'?" for a moment.

On the gentleman part...Dempsey had no trouble adapting from the Mazda to the cup Porsche, then to the GTE Porsche. Course he did try jumping to a Lola LMP2.........crashed a lot but still.

At this rate we're gonna come up with GT3.5.

Look I think we can all agree though...THIS is the best GT3 car of all time and what they should be like.

 

[Bo]

Well you said GTE wasn't the top level...and that threw me like..."what you smokin'?" for a moment.

It was oddly worded, I was trying to say it should be by right (as it is), not insinuating it wasn't.

On the gentleman part...Dempsey had no trouble adapting from the Mazda to the cup Porsche, then to the GTE Porsche. Course he did try jumping to a Lola LMP2.........

Dempsey is 100% devoted to his racing. He's extremely fit and focused, something that can't be said for a lot of GT3 drivers - they may do the odd workout, but they're just businessmen who like to toy with racing cars at the weekend.

Look I think we can all agree though...THIS is the best GT3 car of all time.

Damax > Preci Spark.