GT "Simcade"?

  • Thread starter Beart8o
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niky
non-linear loss of grip (NFS)
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pac_curve.jpg


That's a visual of Pacejka curves, which are not reality but are generally considered a pretty good approximation of as long as you avoid the areas where they fall down, like low speed.

Which bit are you talking about being non-linear as non-realistic?

Longitudinal force (black) is definitely not linear past peak grip. Lateral force (red) could be approximated as linear past peak grip, but it's not.
 
More in the sense that loss-of-grip doesn't happen exactly where and when and as violently as you'd expect it to in real-life, and recovery is often far easier than it ought to be.

I was dreading someone would pick up on that... knew it was a bit off after I wrote it, but not quite sure how else to describe it. :lol:
 
Gt "Simcade" ??? Yes I think so if you talking about Grip.

I mean if you compare to Forza where there is no Weird Pit Bugs, Contacts are well manage by the game, Livery editor, .........., engine swap , possibility to have tyres more large and more , more and more ...... , Yes Gt it a Simcade.
However Gt is a great Drift Sim IMO, Tyres Smoke , Lights , Tones of cars , nights , weather , good tracks , normally soon a Track Creator ;) .......Ect .

I used to play Forza 2-3-4 with the wheel ( Team DTM ) and now I'm playing GT6 with the wheel and I'm happy with it ;) because I'm drifting but If you are looking for great racing experience Go head Forza 4 or 5, trust me.

Conclusion IMO:

_Grip : Forza
_Drift : GT
 
I noticed last night whilst doing the Lambo seasonal, the way the wheel gets progressively slightly lighter underaccleration as the weight transfers to the back, leading to an understeer that really is not so perceptible just by watching the screen. It's details like this that the VAST majority of GT players that don't have a FFB wheel will miss out on, that really add to the experience. GT can be made a lot more enjoyable and 'realistic' to many people if they do buy a wheel.
 
Devil240Z
I wasn't saying that GT isn't a sim.... I guess I was saying why do people want GT to be like one of those boring PC sims.
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This is my gig. I appreciate all the work going into those sims, and am curious what Race Room, rF2, P CARS and Assetto Corsa are bringing to the table. But at the same time, PC sims feel like silt in my mouth. Just dry, dusty, uninvolving, the bots are all polite cruise missiles, every car seems like a loaner... PC sims seem to be built specifically so online racers can compare the size of their virtual trophies. Supposedly, rFactor 2 and Project CARS are supposed to be different, but that remains to be seen.

I did a shootout a couple of years ago with my GTRs and Live For Speed against Forza 4 and GT5. And amazingly, F4 and GT5 held their own amazingly well. Yes, the sims were a bit more accurate, and yes, Forza and GT did better things in different ways, plus Forza's bots are tards, but the simulation of a car on a track was surprisingly similar. Both of these series have gone a LONG way towards being true to life in their own way.

The reason some of us want Gran Turismo to go into solid simulation, even to an extent in the sense of sim racing, is because the game has most of the cars we own in it. And it's just darn cool to take our virtual car around race courses that hardly any of us will ever be able to visit, and push them to their virtual limits. And it would be pure chewing satisfaction if the simulation was top notch.

In the sense of the PC sim thing, GT also has a wealth of race cars, more than many sim racers, and if Race Mod returns which I expect it will, no end to race cars. It would be sweet indeed if we could have racing series based on both real world leagues as well as fantasy ones, in which we could test our mettle with racing rules in place. Even to racing a semblance of a season. Now Gran Turismo definitely needs to remain a fun sandbox game both for longtime fans and casuals, so I propose this sim stuff be in its own section, a GT Pro Mode, so that you don't have to mess with it if you don't want to. But it's always there if you want to get brave and take your game to the next level.
 
eran0004
Not if you're using them on cars that doesn't have those systems.
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It still is in that case. You just installed them on the car. Some of the aids were in the tuning shop in GT2. GT3 on just saved you the hassle of buying them.

avens
A simulator is what they have at the Red Bull F1 team, which is custom made hardware using rfactor pro (again custom made) with the purpose of resembling one or few cars to perfection. A console game meant to be played with a gamepad sitting on the couch and that is made to be controlled by everyone -including kids that do not want to spin out- is not.
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There are different levels of modeling that are all realistic. It depends on what you want to simulate and how much hardware and budget you have. Saying that F1 sims are sims but console sims aren't seems kind of arbitrary when they're in the same boat, ie approximations.

eSZee
So because its purpose is simulation, it's a simulator?
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I think that's definitely part of it. But I don't think intent can save something from miserable failure.

Johnnypenso
I would tend to agree. I would say if you can fly a plane after only ever having used Microsoft Flight, it's a pretty decent simulator...
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What that doesn't show is that FSX is a joke at edge of the envelope flying. A lot of the things learned from FSX that would matter there are procedure and controls. The flying part is not hard when it's just keeping the thing in the air, though there are a few things to know. Flying is probably considered a bigger deal than driving because of the risk involved, but as far as skill goes I don't think the gap is so big.

Still, even a simulator with problems like FSX is good enough to provide real world training.





EDIT

I don't even know how I doubled posted just now

Oh I hit reply instead of edit
 
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MatskiMonk
I noticed last night whilst doing the Lambo seasonal, the way the wheel gets progressively slightly lighter underaccleration as the weight transfers to the back, leading to an understeer that really is not so perceptible just by watching the screen. It's details like this that the VAST majority of GT players that don't have a FFB wheel will miss out on, that really add to the experience. GT can be made a lot more enjoyable and 'realistic' to many people if they do buy a wheel.
Click to expand...
Every once in a while I discover some little nuance to GT like this. You get the best feedback from a wheel when you turn all the aids off too. Driving with ABS really deadens the feedback and the responsiveness of the car. The more you drive without aids, the better driver you will be in GT no question about it and the more of a simulation it will feel like.
 
Exorcet
It still is in that case. You just installed them on the car. Some of the aids were in the tuning shop in GT2. GT3 on just saved you the hassle of buying them.
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Fair enough. I'll settle with SRF = simcade.
 
The only proper simulators are on PC so in that way GT is simcade and so is Forza. Forza doesn't do as good as a job as GT of simulating racing in my opinion, it's definitely easier to drift and a bit biased to drift in my opinion. What I seem to see is that games like iRacing is a serious sim racer but, you can't seem to drift in it which is why like others have said no game will ever be a true simulator, at the end of the day it is a game.
 
To me the simcade term is for the more serious console games, but taking away some race weekend steps,eg, you don't have to start the car and go through some steps that would drive the casuals away, but makes an effort to simulate physics. also implies some sort of career mode and arcade features and fun driving , like cofee breaks and whatnot.
So yeah, to me gt is a simcade.
 
Actually what winds me up is the use of the term 'simulator' at all. Basically because the word itself is a statement of intent. It implies nothing about the quality of the simulator.

Essentially attempting to reproduce any facet of reality in computer code can be considered a simulation, whether the underlying code attempts to mathematically model the physics for example or just approximates some physical effects using heuristics.

Whether it is a game or a commercial training simulator or a climate model the only relevant question is how close it comes to reproducing realistic results.

I wish (us) gamers would stop using the term in a qualitative sense. It is meaningless in this context*.

[edit] What I am trying to say is that gamers use the term all the time, and it means different things to each of them. Just look back through this thread... "to me xxx means yyy". As soon as you mention the word simulation in a car racing game thread - you know you are going to end up back on the spiral of "that's not a sim, this is a sim" etc...
 
Tenacious D
This is my gig. I appreciate all the work going into those sims, and am curious what Race Room, rF2, P CARS and Assetto Corsa are bringing to the table. But at the same time, PC sims feel like silt in my mouth. Just dry, dusty, uninvolving, the bots are all polite cruise missiles, every car seems like a loaner... PC sims seem to be built specifically so online racers can compare the size of their virtual trophies. Supposedly, rFactor 2 and Project CARS are supposed to be different, but that remains to be seen.

I did a shootout a couple of years ago with my GTRs and Live For Speed against Forza 4 and GT5. And amazingly, F4 and GT5 held their own amazingly well. Yes, the sims were a bit more accurate, and yes, Forza and GT did better things in different ways, plus Forza's bots are tards, but the simulation of a car on a track was surprisingly similar. Both of these series have gone a LONG way towards being true to life in their own way.

The reason some of us want Gran Turismo to go into solid simulation, even to an extent in the sense of sim racing, is because the game has most of the cars we own in it. And it's just darn cool to take our virtual car around race courses that hardly any of us will ever be able to visit, and push them to their virtual limits. And it would be pure chewing satisfaction if the simulation was top notch.

In the sense of the PC sim thing, GT also has a wealth of race cars, more than many sim racers, and if Race Mod returns which I expect it will, no end to race cars. It would be sweet indeed if we could have racing series based on both real world leagues as well as fantasy ones, in which we could test our mettle with racing rules in place. Even to racing a semblance of a season. Now Gran Turismo definitely needs to remain a fun sandbox game both for longtime fans and casuals, so I propose this sim stuff be in its own section, a GT Pro Mode, so that you don't have to mess with it if you don't want to. But it's always there if you want to get brave and take your game to the next level.
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on the forza bots thing. I was playing a bunch of FM4 yesterday and I have to say I like its bots more than GTs . for one they don't rear end you in the corners and they make mistakes, which usually make me laugh. I had one bot drive straight into the wall in the first corner of tsukuba and I crashed too cause I couldn't stop laughing!
 
Devil240Z
on the forza bots thing. I was playing a bunch of FM4 yesterday and I have to say I like its bots more than GTs . for one they don't rear end you in the corners and they make mistakes, which usually make me laugh. I had one bot drive straight into the wall in the first corner of tsukuba and I crashed too cause I couldn't stop laughing!
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Yesterday, I saw 2 AI Citroen C4s fighting for 1st place in front of me (I was in a Fit), they were very aggressive, sparks were flying around but none of them gave up, Their little battle lasted for like half a lap. I was pushing as well, not too hard, I could've just blasted through both of them but their battle gave me no room for overtaking.

Eventually I came 1st in a 3 car-wide battle, I came through between them and then they pushed even harder. They were right on my tail for the rest of the race and kept fighting.

This, just doesn't happen in a GT game.
 
PepeMickey
This, just doesn't happen in a GT game.
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It does with me. Of course if I remember right, you don't have GT6, so your loss. ;)

On Forza's bots, this is how almost every race above F Class went with me.

The job of the cars in front are to block my progress so the cars in back can harass and bump me. Then if I manage to take the lead, it's amazingly hard to extend that lead as the bots get a sudden burst of nitrous to keep up with me and try to bump their way in front so the whole ordeal can begin again.

I'll take Gran Turismo's bots. I also like the fact that they can navigate a chicane unlike GTR's bots, which turn everyone into a 15 car pile-up.
 
GT is not a racing game period, its a track day game at best .

And there are no true sim racing or driving games on a console all are simcade at best.
 
Beart8o
Is GT really not a true simulation? I have seen this criticism/observation brought up of both GT and forza a number of times on these forums. I have never (and probably will never) play any of the PC racing sims. It seems like arcade racers are defined by their bending of the rules of physics with the express purpose of making driving more fun or exciting. Sims attempt to mimic the rules to the best of their ability. Now I haven't played the last 2 Forzas, but GT and the older Forzas seem to me to never bend the rules of physics on purpose to make it more fun. Maybe it's not a perfect sim. There are things it does not simulate, and things it simulates improperly, but does that make it somehow less of a simulation? I'm inclined to say no, but I would love to hear some thoughtful opinions that aren't just an attempt to belittle one game or another.
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Um yeah it does make it somewhat less of a simulator and into the simcade category. It emulates an emulation while still have the ease and accessibility of an arcade racer. Thus the title it and Forza gets, it also warrants criticism because they (PD) make the claim of it being the real driving simulator and the most realistic racing game, and it further is perpetuated when they use their "GT Academy" Drivers as marketing tools to make people believe if they're good enough a GT then clearly they should have seat time in an LMP2.

I love GT and all but at the end of the day having raced in actual sims and some of us using the same platforms that go into F1 sims...the PC racers seem in another dimension compared to GT.

Also the easy cop out arguments to save face for a fan favorite are always lovely, "no game will be a true simulation, and emulate real life 100%". If it did it wouldn't be called a simulation any more...what these games do combined with equipment is emulate various cars in race conditions, yet they don't take in real world factors fully. The utilization of them across the map by motorsports teams whether a cheaper alternative to testing or considered better, proves their worth. Hey but clearly you guys that dispute the sims would know better than the countless variables that go in to help improve racing.
 
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This brings up a related question. Why don't these games provide tunes for these cars appropriate for the race these cars are entering? Or a tuning tutorial, since even GT is so technical? I know forums dedicated to these games are a good resource, but it would be nice if something was available from gear heads in the game itself.

I will have to say that the way the cars in GT6 behave are amazing. I took a BRZ a little too far over a curb at Suzuka yesterday, and the way it bounced and I recovered looked like racing film footage.
 
NA
Hehe, any driving sim/game, where the average 10 year old child can practice for a week or two, and rival the record lap times of the world's best drivers, in the worlds fastest cars, is bending some of the rules of physics somewhere.

At what point that turns something from sim, to simcade, to arcade, has been a matter of debate for quite some time, and will likely remain so for the long term.
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Until games become capable of simulating the sensations and G-forces of actually driving a car and - most of all - cause players to feel fear, every driving sim will be the way you describe GT6.
 
^ Ermm... I wouldn't say that, I know that at some point, damage, sounds, bot A.I. and a few other small details need to be tended to properly. Race Mod... Livery Editor... Event Maker... Course Maker... Online Manager tools... we all have our druthers. But whatever PD can accomplish for GT7 should be in.
 
Tenacious D
The job of the cars in front are to block my progress so the cars in back can harass and bump me. Then if I manage to take the lead, it's amazingly hard to extend that lead as the bots get a sudden burst of nitrous to keep up with me and try to bump their way in front so the whole ordeal can begin again.
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In other words forza bots are just like GT bots except they block, put pressure on you, and make it feel like a somewhat amateur race.
I agree.
 
^ Well... there's a bit more to it than that.

In Forza, you need a powerful car to win. Late in the game, you almost need a more powerful car than allowed!

In GT5 and 6, you need a less powerful car than required, or you tend to blow the bots away. :P

But I will have to say that upping the difficulty by handicapping myself has given me the most fun in Gran Turismo yet with GT6. I know some people growl about that, but difficulty slider, handicapping cars... difficulty is difficulty. And when was the last game someone mentioned they had fun losing races? ;)
 
Tenacious D
But I will have to say that upping the difficulty by handicapping myself has given me the most fun in Gran Turismo yet with GT6. I know some people growl about that, but difficulty slider, handicapping cars... difficulty is difficulty.
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Any sense of realism that GT6 has left is almost entirely eliminated when you have to handicap yourself to the point you're racing an S2000 vs Enzos and Corvettes.

We've discussed before that strong AI will not work with the rolling start race setup and qualifying will never work with current weak AI.
 
Tenacious D
But I will have to say that upping the difficulty by handicapping myself has given me the most fun in Gran Turismo yet with GT6. I know some people growl about that, but difficulty slider, handicapping cars... difficulty is difficulty. And when was the last game someone mentioned they had fun losing races? ;)
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So having your skill level equalized with the AI and having a real race is the same as handicapping yourself by 200hp and a tire grade or two to catch a rabbit while negotiating moving pylons? Right....lol
 
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eSZee
Any sense of realism that GT6 has left is almost entirely eliminated when you have to handicap yourself to the point you're racing an S2000 vs Enzos and Corvettes.
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Johnnypenso
So having your skill level equalized with the AI and having a real race is the same as handicapping yourself by 200hp and a tire grade or two to catch a rabbit while negotiating moving pylons? Right....lol
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Yeah, this is the usual reaction. Oh well, one of us is having fun racing. Even losing. ;)
 

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