GT Sport beta physics discussion - Read the First Post Before Replying

[z06fun]

I've found that to be quiet wrong to be honest. While it is easier to be fast with a controller, it also restricts with things like turn-in at speed. Its a double edged sword, because while it is easier, a wheel should be faster in the long run, if the person has the skill to do it.

Forza's tire model is actually a bit ahead of GT from what I've heard. As for breaking peak grip, I think you're massively over-exaggerating the situation. I've found most instances rather easy to correct, that is, unless you're going full speed into a 90 degree turn, slamming your brakes last minute, going into the turn sideways.

Regarding Forza6 tire model, I did not say its not easy to correct. Thats not the issue, as Forza6 has magic behind the scenes correction also. Its the huge change in the coefficient of friction once you get past the peak grip slip angle thats just not close to real life. For real tires, this area of the force vs slip angle plot is a continous curve (in the dry), it does not jump down at some certain slip angle like the Forza6 model. I will add if you used normal steering (vs sim steering) it gets masked because it generally helps keep you from steering in a way that puts you past peak grip. The forza dry pavement tire model reminds me very much of driving on heavily sealed pavement in the rain. Thats a very knife edge condition where a tire will let go and the have a much lower sliding coefficient of friction.

I'll add this, every person Ive talked to who has lots of experience in real cars like me, and has played Forza6 can not stand the tire model. One guy went as far as to say it was "infuriating".

I know there are fast wheel users in Forza6, but my experience was that every fast guy I came across racing online was using the controller. That was not at all the case in GT6 where most fast guys were using a wheel.


Back to our regularly scheduled programming...

 

[Imari]

I'll add this, every person Ive talked to who has lots of experience in real cars like me, and has played Forza6 can not stand the tire model. One guy went as far as to say it was "infuriating".

This is not true. You're just apparently unaware that there are also people here that you're talking to that have significant experience in real cars. But don't let that get in the way of good hyperbole.

 

[OdeFinn]

Just wondering are you comparing things with identical setups or is i.e. GT test cars running with those ridiculous amounts of rear toe-in?
Several your described handling "issues" are coming from that rear toe-in, bad toe-in on front doesn't help either, if those stock values are used then there is no idea for physics comparison, I'll bet at if you put those +0.60 to +1.00 toe values on any good SIM you'll find really much GT styled reactions, "not realistic" if you believe car handling like "normal cars IRL", just thing what you'll never found in real life is such toe values used.

Just by looking GTS beta it seems to react pretty much same as GT6 on suspension alignments, few differences to better, but not huge leap.
Wishing at I get beta on my hands to test it.. Maybe EU beta.

 

[PzR Slim]

Gentleman, I give you this...



I think many of you mistake the term physics with the controller - steering programming algorithms.
That being said, it's always good to see that discussion lead to sim racers learning the natural behaviors of cars. In the end, it's up to YOU to set your car up to behave how you want it. Ride height, toe, and the black art of differential adjustment, ALL can drastically change your perception of whether a car feels "real" or whether it's even drivable with a controller.

*** Check the video out and I think you'll all enjoy it.

There's several other lengthy discussions and feature streams that had been uploaded on my page, all covering GT Sport Beta. Subscribe if you're interested in all things sim racing. All the GT Sport footage is in 1080p60. (Except one of the TT replay).

Cheers.

GT The Real Hand Holding Simulator. Anyone else see this as a negative or only me?

 

[JulesDennis]

GT The Real Hand Holding Simulator. Anyone else see this as a negative or only me?

I am with you on this one.Others think its a good thing though (for certain reasons).
We (all of us) need to realize that GTS is not Pcars or AC and need to focus on what it brings to the table (and there are many great things that they have improved).But imo we cannot put it into the "pure sim" category
Some people cannot -will not- see the truth.GTS is not the "revolution to sim racing" as many wanted or expected.Its gonna be a really fun game but we need to keep our minds open and things to the right perspective.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

It's an interesting video, but it isn't gospel.

Too often I see complaints about how difficult, and according to some, near enough unplayable, other games in this genre are when using a controller.
And from reports I've seen about GT Sport, it's controller functions are working very well.
But this, of course, is somehow bad.

Let's not forget the majority, vast majority is probably a reasonable call, play these console games using controllers.

I found the most apt comment in the video was when he said "Gran Turismo has always been kinda the go to, sit down in your lounge room enjoy on a big screen with a controller, kinda game."

This is where most punters are.
And PD do it well.

 

[PJTierney]

I haven't got Beta access yet (EU player) but this thread has made me want to raise a question based on my experience with Gran Turismo 6:

• In GT6 0.0 Camber was seen by many as the optimal setting, as anything deviating from that would result in slower laptimes. Has this been changed in Gran Turismo Sport?
  
  
• In GT6 the Ride Height parameters were "backwards", with a higher nose and lower rear-end providing increased turn-in (whereas it should be a higher rear-end and lower nose). Has this also been fixed?

 

[Lord Protector]

I don't get it how PD still hasn't solved the missing lift-off oversteer thing.. I mean how hard is that...

anyway, looking forward to answers for questions above 👍

I'm a european player so still waiting to get my hands on GTS

 

[ImaRobot]

Regarding Forza6 tire model, I did not say its not easy to correct. Thats not the issue, as Forza6 has magic behind the scenes correction also

I'm aware of this.

For real tires, this area of the force vs slip angle plot is a continous curve (in the dry), it does not jump down at some certain slip angle like the Forza6 model

Care to show some examples of this happening? I can't seem to recall that being the case.

will add if you used normal steering (vs sim steering) it gets masked because it generally helps keep you from steering in a way that puts you past peak grip

From what I have known is that simulation steering removes the dampers from the pad and gives you a 1:1 steering ratio. This gives you a wildly unrealistic results while using pad. I steer the same way using both simulation and normal, I just have more opportunity for mistake because Sim steering also gives you super twitchy steering inputs.

Normal steering helps you out with countersteer, it doesn't work in the way youre describing though, as something that helps you with steering to avoid breaking peak grip.

The forza dry pavement tire model reminds me very much of driving on heavily sealed pavement in the rain. Thats a very knife edge condition where a tire will let go and the have a much lower sliding coefficient of friction

Can't say I agree.

d this, every person Ive talked to who has lots of experience in real cars like me, and has played Forza6 can not stand the tire model. One guy went as far as to say it was "infuriating

Ive seen all kinds of people with "experience" talk down a lot of games. However, it disproves nothing.

now there are fast wheel users in Forza6, but my experience was that every fast guy I came across racing online was using the controller. That was not at all the case in GT6 where most fast guys were using a wheel

Well going off leaderboards should give you a better idea. I can guarantee that someone similarly skilled as me that is using a wheel will definitely be faster than me. They can achieve levels of smoothness and modulation that I just can't achieve with a pad.

 

[super_gt]

Guys let's stick to GT Sport beta physics.

 

[OdeFinn]

I haven't got Beta access yet (EU player) but this thread has made me want to raise a question based on my experience with Gran Turismo 6:

• In GT6 0.0 Camber was seen by many as the optimal setting, as anything deviating from that would result in slower laptimes. Has this been changed in Gran Turismo Sport?
  
  
• In GT6 the Ride Height parameters were "backwards", with a higher nose and lower rear-end providing increased turn-in (whereas it should be a higher rear-end and lower nose). Has this also been fixed?

I don't get it how PD still hasn't solved the missing lift-off oversteer thing.. I mean how hard is that...

Actually both of above are linked together, reason why your turning benefits on "backward" ride height is reason coming from simple tuning method using zero camber.
If you know how to setup camber tune in GT6 (understanding camber throw calculations on front tires on GT6) you'll have ride height working fine, and so long as using zero camber+ backward tuned ride height and stupid LSD settings (parachutes as most "pro tuners" do) along with over exaggerated toe values you won't find "proper" lift-off from game, but if doing those in real way you'll find lift-off where it should be.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Actually both of above are linked together, reason why your turning benefits on "backward" ride height is reason coming from simple tuning method using zero camber.
If you know how to setup camber tune in GT6 (understanding camber throw calculations on front tires on GT6) you'll have ride height working fine, and so long as using zero camber+ backward tuned ride height and stupid LSD settings (parachutes as most "pro tuners" do) along with over exaggerated toe values you won't find "proper" lift-off from game, but if doing those in real way you'll find lift-off where it should be.

Sounds like the old, "everyone else was doing it wrong" concept. How many TT's did your magic tunes win by the way?

 

[OdeFinn]

Sounds like the old, "everyone else was doing it wrong" concept. How many TT's did your magic tunes win by the way?

How does this fit in current discussion?

There's "preachers" preaching on zero camber and high amounts of brake side lock thru several years, people can do their setups as they want, but if you implement values what are just trying to find holes in physics engine then you probably won't find other things on physics going in realistic manner.
If you believe at car with unrealistic setup should drive like car with realistic setup then there must be something wrong between screen and chair.

 

[Lord Protector]

Actually both of above are linked together, reason why your turning benefits on "backward" ride height is reason coming from simple tuning method using zero camber.
If you know how to setup camber tune in GT6 (understanding camber throw calculations on front tires on GT6) you'll have ride height working fine, and so long as using zero camber+ backward tuned ride height and stupid LSD settings (parachutes as most "pro tuners" do) along with over exaggerated toe values you won't find "proper" lift-off from game, but if doing those in real way you'll find lift-off where it should be.

Simplified version pls?

 

[OdeFinn]

Simplified version pls?

People mess with weird setup and expect getting something else than weird as results.

 

[MisterWaffles]

Yay, i finally got invited to the Beta!

First impression are that the pad physics are certainly miles ahead of Project CARS, which was mediocre at best. It also feels more natural than Driveclub to me too. Overall, I'm very impressed by the controller feel so far.

 

[Lord Protector]

People mess with weird setup and expect getting something else than weird as results.

Is it weird to expect a stock car to behave like a stock car I drive in real life?

 

[PzR Slim]

Yay, i finally got invited to the Beta!

First impression are that the pad physics are certainly miles ahead of Project CARS, which was mediocre at best. It also feels more natural than Driveclub to me too. Overall, I'm very impressed by the controller feel so far.

The physics of the game don't change depending on the control method. I think you mean how the pad is implemented in game.

 

[PJTierney]

People mess with weird setup and expect getting something else than weird as results.

I wasn't referring to realism in my post (regarding camber anyway); my main query was whether or not we'd have to use unreaslistic setups in order to go faster.

GT Sport is a competitive game, and when you're after those final few tenths "realism" may get thrown out the window.

 

[MisterWaffles]

The physics of the game don't change depending on the control method. I think you mean how the pad is implemented in game.

Yeah sure, potato tamato.

 

[JDMKING13]

Shoot Im really enjoying the physics big time and as someone stated the game with the controller is fabulous. During online races is where the physics really shine imo, probably for the fact its intense racing.

 

[OdeFinn]

Is it weird to expect a stock car to behave like a stock car I drive in real life?

LOL, you're right, except in GT6 there weren't any stock car regarding their "stock" setup.

 

[ImaRobot]

Yeah sure, potato tamato.

No, not in this case. There is not separate physics models for those using different peripherals. There is just more aid's on one compared to the other. Pcars suffered from control schemes that weren't optimized for pads, and left it up to the user to fine tune how the game reacts to your inputs. It left a lot of room for error, and that was the issue with Pcars.

 

[JDMKING13]

No, not in this case. There is not separate physics models for those using different peripherals. There is just more aid's on one compared to the other. Pcars suffered from control schemes that weren't optimized for pads, and left it up to the user to fine tune how the game reacts to your inputs. It left a lot of room for error, and that was the issue with Pcars.

Pcars is growing on me more and more, but as you said the controls where terrible out the gate it turned me off big time. Good thanks for people who put better setting online for use really opened the game for me.

 

[Scaff]

For real tires, this area of the force vs slip angle plot is a continous curve (in the dry), it does not jump down at some certain slip angle like the Forza6 model.

That very much depends on the tyre (and I'm talking about reality here).

Lateral force will always drop once the tyres slip reaches a certain point (and that point will again vary from tyre to tyre and condition to condition).

http://racingcardynamics.com/racing-tires-lateral-force/

Its also important to not forget that what is happening at the wheels and what we feel via the steering are not the same, as the fall off of self-aligning torque via the steering wheel is much more noticeable.

 

[Lord Protector]

LOL, you're right, except in GT6 there weren't any stock car regarding their "stock" setup.

I checked mine and it was pretty much the same (have car information straight from Honda)

 

[Fredzy]

All I have to say about tuning is... I hope there are always Sport mode events with locked tunes. Give us options. GT6 quick match had both, I don't see why Sport wouldn't.

Even with "locked" tunes, I could see them offering a few pre-set suspension/differential options to suit different driving styles. Brake bias should always be adjustable, and tire compound selection should be a thing for longer events.

I understand that tuning is a big deal for a lot of people. I just want close competition without having to screw around with tuning. Open tuning in almost all of the beta events has been the biggest turn-off for me by far.

 

[OdeFinn]

I checked mine and it was pretty much the same (have car information straight from Honda)

Speaking GT6? If yes then I'd like to try that setup, can you put it to me on PM?

 

[JDMKING13]

All I have to say about tuning is... I hope there are always Sport mode events with locked tunes. Give us options. GT6 quick match had both, I don't see why Sport wouldn't.

Even with "locked" tunes, I could see them offering a few pre-set suspension/differential options to suit different driving styles. Brake bias should always be adjustable, and tire compound selection should be a thing for longer events.

I understand that tuning is a big deal for a lot of people. I just want close competition without having to screw around with tuning. Open tuning in almost all of the beta events has been the biggest turn-off for me by far.

Bro I feel you big time, im not so picky with the race cars as much but the N class should not modify the tranmision. I could not believe how fast some of these guys were on the ring, I have no clue on transmission tuning so maybe im just salty.

 

[OdeFinn]

@Lord Protector tested quickly Honda S2000 '06 with '00-'03 suspension alignments, just to get driving wheel visible used newer version, first tested on correct era but realised at you might want to see wheel also.
Specs from service manual, stating front camber -0.3°±'10 and toe-in 0 ±2mm, rear camber -1.3 ±'10 and toe-in 6mm ±2mm.

Due GT6 camber throw used lower values on camber to get even numbers to get zero toe on front.

So test car has following setup, everything not mentioned is as is on stock:
Ride height CS130/130 - SS126/126 - RS122/122
Camber -0.2/-1.2
Toe -0.01/+0.27 (front 20:1 camber throw counter value, rear comes from 225/50R16)

No aids, noABS, grip real offline.




Really hard to believe at there isn't Lift-off oversteer..