GT Sport vs Other Games: Comparison Video Thread

[Speedster911]

The one thing I take from that is just how much more real everything seems in PCars. The sound is the obvious one. But looking at GTS, particularly from cockpit view, the car seems to be floating a couple of feet above the ground because the ride is just so, so smooth. In PCars the car is moving and pitching on the surface of the track as you would expect.

Precisely - there's a lot of raw character and edginess to the cars' sound character in PCARS, something which beautifully captures the underlying soul of the respective car. They do sound very raw and "dirty" in real life from trackside and it's been captured well in CARS. And yes, it seems like they haven't changed much of the vehicle modelling and dynamics since GT5.. the cars are still way too smooth. Not even The Ring can upset their super-smooth super-precise almost Martian-like suspensions.

The transmission whine in GT Sport is utterly horrendous. On external camera it sounds reasonably good but when in-car GTS is so far off the realism of PCars it's laughable.

Don't get me started on the Aston Martin Vantage V12 GT3 I unlocked earlier. Sounds like a V6!

It is absolutely ludicrous I agree. It sounds like you're backing up your car too fast... sounds like that same annoying whine.

Forget the sounds! That cockpit view STILL looks awfully dark! Very annoying...

Unfortunately, yes. Seems to me they are hiding it on purpose to keep the frames up. Oh well.. so much for better cockpit detail since GT5.

Since the update the cars whine isnt louder than the engine. As far as the cockpit being dark. It all depends how the light enters the vehicle. It will be brighter at certain angles, also the time of day really effects the lighting in the interior. Sound of project car is mile better than Gt Sport. I feel like Gt Sport has the right sounds but are not adjusted properly. Non the less it is a big improvement since the first beta version

Yes, they not only need to rebalance the sounds a bit, but introduce that raw detail in exhaust sounds and engine rumble especially when we talk race cars. As for the dark gamma in cockpit views, there were moments in the game when I was expecting the cockpit detail to light up just a little bit, but it didn't. Both tracks in the video have very similar time of day and PCARS' detail just looks very eye-catching and realistic.

The funny thing is SMS has said that their sounds can be better and have dumped and started from scratch on their sounds. It was not up to their standards that"s the difference when Kaz and PD who just tries to take a 10-year-old system and tweak it and call it good enough

I believe SMS is an evolving team that is constantly learning from their mistakes and striving hard to improve things on all levels. PD, not so much. I think they're still (sadly) stuck in the early 2000 era where they believe they can wow fans with a heavy emphasis on visuals, track variety and an insane car count. Everything else seems secondary. Oh well, so be it then.

I hear a lot of distaste for how loud the whine is of the straight cut transmission, but if you look up video of in cockpit view of gt3 cars with a dog box you'll understand just how authentic the volume level of GTS' gear box whine actually sounds. There are little things however, I hear from GTS that, even in a post patch, would be fix are transmission shift sound speed. Once again I checked for gt3 cars, once again it's spot on, but for regular cars it's not instant unless you put a straight cut gear box in it.

Of course it's pretty much moit right now untill both are out, because they are both in beta, but I will be picking both up

Fair to say the sound recording in those GT3 hot lap videos you see online isn't that good. Best way to make a proper comparison would be to play the game and go take a ride in a GT3 car if you can shell out some cash. The whine is just too loud in the game; in real life, it is indeed very high-pitched which is why you catch it instantly in videos, but never loud enough to drown out or suppress the engine whining and and exhaust rumbling and sputtering at high revs... these cars are stripped down cans and shed as much weight as possible, so inside the cockpit the sheer sound and feel is very visceral to say the least. In my console racing experience at least, PCARS and Forza are two games that recreate this well.

 

[diesel97]

GTSport has the better lighting and Shaders. PCARS's in car Audio is better (PD really need to tone down the transmission whine).

From the outside both are decent enough.

Only in replay mode you need to race it first hand to see the differences, YT videos just don't cut it

 

[RadishTM]

I like how the front bonnet of the Corvette in Project CARS vibrates in relation to the road surface. GT Sport is just too smooth.

 

[JDMKING13]

Precisely - there's a lot of raw character and edginess to the cars' sound character in PCARS, something which beautifully captures the underlying soul of the respective car. They do sound very raw and "dirty" in real life from trackside and it's been captured well in CARS. And yes, it seems like they haven't changed much of the vehicle modelling and dynamics since GT5.. the cars are still way too smooth. Not even The Ring can upset their super-smooth super-precise almost Martian-like suspensions.



It is absolutely ludicrous I agree. It sounds like you're backing up your car too fast... sounds like that same annoying whine.



Unfortunately, yes. Seems to me they are hiding it on purpose to keep the frames up. Oh well.. so much for better cockpit detail since GT5.



Yes, they not only need to rebalance the sounds a bit, but introduce that raw detail in exhaust sounds and engine rumble especially when we talk race cars. As for the dark gamma in cockpit views, there were moments in the game when I was expecting the cockpit detail to light up just a little bit, but it didn't. Both tracks in the video have very similar time of day and PCARS' detail just looks very eye-catching and realistic.



I believe SMS is an evolving team that is constantly learning from their mistakes and striving hard to improve things on all levels. PD, not so much. I think they're still (sadly) stuck in the early 2000 era where they believe they can wow fans with a heavy emphasis on visuals, track variety and an insane car count. Everything else seems secondary. Oh well, so be it then.



Fair to say the sound recording in those GT3 hot lap videos you see online isn't that good. Best way to make a proper comparison would be to play the game and go take a ride in a GT3 car if you can shell out some cash. The whine is just too loud in the game; in real life, it is indeed very high-pitched which is why you catch it instantly in videos, but never loud enough to drown out or suppress the engine whining and and exhaust rumbling and sputtering at high revs... these cars are stripped down cans and shed as much weight as possible, so inside the cockpit the sheer sound and feel is very visceral to say the least. In my console racing experience at least, PCARS and Forza are two games that recreate this well.

Do you have the beta?

 

[Speedster911]

Do you have the beta?

No, my neighbor does.

 

[MisterWaffles]

In my opinion, the cockpit view in GT Sport is much brighter than it was in GT6, the window is no longer as tinted so it's much easier to see out.

Also, new in GT Sport is the windshield reflection, I thought I'd point that out because everyone seems to overlook it.

 

[bdj57]

If I may put some addition here we have GTS VS FM6 Apex. I know the Apex is PC version of Forza 6, but I might just put here for you guys to evaluate :

 

[JDMKING13]

Damn I just got the McLaren Gr.3 I wish I could do a video with AC and GTS.

 

[Strop]

If I may put some addition here we have GTS VS FM6 Apex. I know the Apex is PC version of Forza 6, but I might just put here for you guys to evaluate :

Apex certainly bests GT by a large margin, although you should post the PC specs to be fair. I'm running Apex in 4K and 60Hz frame rates with everything maxed out and it looks stunning. GT Sport isn't even close and that's comparing a free game Microsoft released last year to a game PD has spent more than three years on and doesn't even have a release date for. If FM7 builds on Apex it will become the benchmark that the others are going have to try and beat.

I don't think PD can do it with the PS4 Pro hardware, it's simply not powerful enough and so we're going to have wait a few more years for the PS5, plus three to four years for PD to port to the new console, just to get a game as good as the free edition available now from Microsoft running on readily available hardware.

 

[sems4arsenal]

Only in replay mode you need to race it first hand to see the differences, YT videos just don't cut it

The lighting and shaders remain the same for both I think.

 

[DonZonda]

If I may put some addition here we have GTS VS FM6 Apex. I know the Apex is PC version of Forza 6, but I might just put here for you guys to evaluate :

Whats wrong with the Sti Sound in GTS? Forza sounds like a proper boxer and the awful chasecam GTS has again I don't even want to speak of...

 

[ghostrider135]

I don't even know how many posts I liked in this thread alone, There's very little to add that hasn't already been said, PCars2 is going to be the go-to game this year unless PD work miracles (won't happen)

 

[CSLACR]

Nobody gives Forza enough credit for physics and realism.
I recently got Pcars, AC, FH3, and FM5.
FM5 more closely resembles real life driving and racing the best, overall, in my opinion.

AC could be great, if fix the oversteer/countersteer/steering issue and remove blatant understeer from many models. It's nearly impossible to catch once the rear gets free though.
If you ever watched captain slow drifting 600hp cars around TGTT, then you know correcting oversteer isn't supposed to be an exercise in futility.

Pcars I tried for 3 or more hours to make the steering resemble anything like a car...no dice.
Could be great for all I know, either it doesn't like my g920 or it's just a really messed up game.

FH3 is a lot of fun, with the most diverse and amazing car list ever. Better crash physics than any GT game ever made by miles. So much fun it's a crime.
Wheel is a little funny with it but tolerable. Too much oversteer in everything.

FM5 I haven't driven enough for a full analysis, but the balance of suspension and weight transfer is right between "sims" and GT, right where I always wanted it. Oversteer is not only correctable, but you can actually jump into a powerful car and powerslide out of exits as you would in a real car.

I always felt "sims" tend to overplay suspension and other things, ACs floating is no exception, and the tendancy in modern games to make powersliding actually seem difficult is disturbing.

So for now at least, FM is doing the best job of realism, because they got the one thing right everyone else messed up. Oversteer. It's not that hard to control, knock it off "sims". (it makes me wonder if the developers of "sims" couldn't find a good driver?) Maybe they think it's really hard? Idk...

 

[Chikane_GTR]

^^ Has to be a joke post about forza having better physics and realism then AC OR PCs

 

[Scuderia Paul]

@CSLACR FM5 is superior to Assetto Corsa and PCars in the realism of it's physics? Ok...

 

[cjr3559]

Seems like I'm one of the few that prefers the GTS sounds over PCars. I finally picked up PCars a couple weeks ago.

Firstly, the menu in PCars is a knockoff of GT5. Nothing new about it, and it took me only 5 minutes to turn off the menu music and I've played it a fraction of the time as GTSport. And that's just the beginning having played the game for a whopping total of 7 hours, compared to 1800 driving hours in GT6.

Now the PCars car sounds are just louder. I'm not saying they are bad, they are good. Here's what's bad however: I jumped into the Ginetta Championship and have been driving that car exclusively. First impressions of the sounds were good, but by race 3 (running 100% length) I'm so tired of the car sounds I don't want to drive it ever again. Looking forward to finish the championship just so I don't have to listen to the same gear clunking over and over and over and over. I think PD has the sounds set more subtly for long term gameplay. All I can expect from the next championship in PCars is another car I'll get sick of after two races. And endurance races? Won't even bother. Was the transmission whine too loud in GTSport? Yes, but they fixed it.

FFB in PCars? Saying nothing new here, there are way too many options. There are so many options that I'll never know their interpretation of what the car is like IRL. It's almost like a cop out; you're given a million variables for YOU to configure leaving all the responsibility on you if the car doesn't feel right. It's like they give you 100,000 piece puzzle to assemble and if you can't get it right, well then it's your fault. It's as if they washed their hands of the settings saying 'Here you go, good luck with that' hiding behind a wall of technical virtuosity that it blinds you from how the car should actually behave. Now I'm not saying the FFB and physics are bad, they are good, and I'm not saying the options are impressive, they are (if you ever dial in the settings), but man up and give us some focus.

Replays are way better in PD games. Have always been the best. PCars replays almost look like cartoons. The lighting effects in PCars are very good, but PD is still the king when it comes to track lighting ambience. I will say that cockpit view options and HUD in PCars is better and looks better than GTSport, but unless PD gives us options in the final game I will give PCars the edge here.

Yes I am disappointed that GTSport has no variable time/weather. PCars has them beat so far on this. Will PD come around? They probably will, just don't know why after all this development time they decided to omit it.

Will I continue to play PCars1? Yes, for a little while longer but I'm sure I'll be finished with it sooner than later. Will I get PCars2? Eventually. But I can tell you the disc that will occupy my PS4 the most will be GTSport.

 

[wallpaper42]

They're really dropping the ball with these dark interiors. There's no way you could sit in a car in broad daylight and have the inside all blacked out.

 

[Pop Tarts]

This is a Porsche GT3 car in which I was referring to how loud the sound of the whine is. Sure you can still hear a lot of the engine but the whine is loud. For the record I am not satisfied with PDs sound either, the raceroom vid showed exactly what I want to hear from PD, chassis noise, back fire from exhaust, better shifting, better tire sounds, you can barely hear them from inside the race car. But yes some cars may sound different with the transmission, not an expert on racing transmission just playing devil's advocate.

 

[lancia delta hf]

Nobody gives Forza enough credit for physics and realism.
I recently got Pcars, AC, FH3, and FM5.
FM5 more closely resembles real life driving and racing the best, overall, in my opinion.

AC could be great, if fix the oversteer/countersteer/steering issue and remove blatant understeer from many models. It's nearly impossible to catch once the rear gets free though.
If you ever watched captain slow drifting 600hp cars around TGTT, then you know correcting oversteer isn't supposed to be an exercise in futility.

Pcars I tried for 3 or more hours to make the steering resemble anything like a car...no dice.
Could be great for all I know, either it doesn't like my g920 or it's just a really messed up game.

FH3 is a lot of fun, with the most diverse and amazing car list ever. Better crash physics than any GT game ever made by miles. So much fun it's a crime.
Wheel is a little funny with it but tolerable. Too much oversteer in everything.

FM5 I haven't driven enough for a full analysis, but the balance of suspension and weight transfer is right between "sims" and GT, right where I always wanted it. Oversteer is not only correctable, but you can actually jump into a powerful car and powerslide out of exits as you would in a real car.

I always felt "sims" tend to overplay suspension and other things, ACs floating is no exception, and the tendancy in modern games to make powersliding actually seem difficult is disturbing.

So for now at least, FM is doing the best job of realism, because they got the one thing right everyone else messed up. Oversteer. It's not that hard to control, knock it off "sims". (it makes me wonder if the developers of "sims" couldn't find a good driver?) Maybe they think it's really hard? Idk...

So captain slow and Top Gear do every scene in one take do they? You realise they only show you the one take which they succeeded in not losing the rear end out of the many takes they lost control?

Also reg. your last paragraph, that is quite laughable from start to finish and yes you wonder correctly, Kunos and SMS couldn't find a good driver. They must think it's hard, I mean Kunos only have their HQ in the middle of a race track so what would they know. Wonder why Porsche are not using FM5 for their sim software? Surprisingly I think it is you who is wrong about how these cars are easy or hard to control, not the devs.

 

[CSLACR]

So captain slow and Top Gear do every scene in one take do they? You realise they only show you the one take which they succeeded in not losing the rear end out of the many takes they lost control?

Also reg. your last paragraph, that is quite laughable from start to finish and yes you wonder correctly, Kunos and SMS couldn't find a good driver. They must think it's hard, I mean Kunos only have their HQ in the middle of a race track so what would they know. Wonder why Porsche are not using FM5 for their sim software? Surprisingly I think it is you who is wrong about how these cars are easy or hard to control, not the devs.

Yep, oversteer is impossible to catch.
If a game doesn't take 1,000 hours to be able to "learn" how to slide the rear without crashing it must not be real.
You and like minded people are what make myself and many others hate most "sims".
Driving is not that hard. I've done it. Ta-da...

AC went so far as to make sports cars drive like Buicks to "feel real" and it's laughable, but it gets suspension praise.
Pardon me but I find if someone thinks that's "great", they don't have enough knowledge about cars or how they behave to have a worthwhile opinion.

 

[vrossi]

LMAO!
This isn't even fair.

 

[Nuggs]

Yep, oversteer is impossible to catch.
If a game doesn't take 1,000 hours to be able to "learn" how to slide the rear without crashing it must not be real.
You and like minded people are what make myself and many others hate most "sims".
Driving is not that hard. I've done it. Ta-da...

AC went so far as to make sports cars drive like Buicks to "feel real" and it's laughable, but it gets suspension praise.
Pardon me but I find if someone thinks that's "great", they don't have enough knowledge about cars or how they behave to have a worthwhile opinion.

You have to be trolling...

 

[m00ndancer]

Nobody gives Forza enough credit for physics and realism.
I recently got Pcars, AC, FH3, and FM5.
FM5 more closely resembles real life driving and racing the best, overall, in my opinion.

AC could be great, if fix the oversteer/countersteer/steering issue and remove blatant understeer from many models. It's nearly impossible to catch once the rear gets free though.
If you ever watched captain slow drifting 600hp cars around TGTT, then you know correcting oversteer isn't supposed to be an exercise in futility.

Hmm, I don't know about that, powersliding a 917 around Spa is quite fun... The Oversteery mess in FM6: Apex or FH3 not so much. CSLACR, what type of wheel and pedals do you own? (I totally agree on Pcars1)

 

[Techy]

I actually want to try out cockpit mode in GTS, but I couldn't deal with it because changing FOV or seat position is almost non-existent. The default cameras don't cut it for me.

Also, either add an option to remove the driver arms or extend the animation range. Kinda throws me off when I turn for a hairpin, but the animation only turns 45 degrees.

 

[Scaff]

Nobody gives Forza enough credit for physics and realism.
I recently got Pcars, AC, FH3, and FM5.
FM5 more closely resembles real life driving and racing the best, overall, in my opinion.

AC could be great, if fix the oversteer/countersteer/steering issue and remove blatant understeer from many models. It's nearly impossible to catch once the rear gets free though.
If you ever watched captain slow drifting 600hp cars around TGTT, then you know correcting oversteer isn't supposed to be an exercise in futility.

Pcars I tried for 3 or more hours to make the steering resemble anything like a car...no dice.
Could be great for all I know, either it doesn't like my g920 or it's just a really messed up game.

FH3 is a lot of fun, with the most diverse and amazing car list ever. Better crash physics than any GT game ever made by miles. So much fun it's a crime.
Wheel is a little funny with it but tolerable. Too much oversteer in everything.

FM5 I haven't driven enough for a full analysis, but the balance of suspension and weight transfer is right between "sims" and GT, right where I always wanted it. Oversteer is not only correctable, but you can actually jump into a powerful car and powerslide out of exits as you would in a real car.

I always felt "sims" tend to overplay suspension and other things, ACs floating is no exception, and the tendancy in modern games to make powersliding actually seem difficult is disturbing.

So for now at least, FM is doing the best job of realism, because they got the one thing right everyone else messed up. Oversteer. It's not that hard to control, knock it off "sims". (it makes me wonder if the developers of "sims" couldn't find a good driver?) Maybe they think it's really hard? Idk...

Yep, oversteer is impossible to catch.
If a game doesn't take 1,000 hours to be able to "learn" how to slide the rear without crashing it must not be real.
You and like minded people are what make myself and many others hate most "sims".
Driving is not that hard. I've done it. Ta-da...

AC went so far as to make sports cars drive like Buicks to "feel real" and it's laughable, but it gets suspension praise.
Pardon me but I find if someone thinks that's "great", they don't have enough knowledge about cars or how they behave to have a worthwhile opinion.

Wow!

Now I can only guess that if you are getting a shed load of understeer in AC you are entering corners far, far too fast. Guess what, that's exactly what should happen.

Nor is large angle oversteer easy to correct in reality, TG is not a goo reference point at all, they use a lot of quick cut editing to hide mistakes, have almost unlimited time to get the shots they want and have an airfield in which to do it (having a 'road' as wide as twenty roads does give you a much larger margin for error. Nor did any of the presenters just jump in an powerslide from birth.

Catching and correcting in AC is more than possible, but if you want something that 'helps' you out and flatters you are going to love GTS.

Seems like I'm one of the few that prefers the GTS sounds over PCars. I finally picked up PCars a couple weeks ago.

Firstly, the menu in PCars is a knockoff of GT5. Nothing new about it, and it took me only 5 minutes to turn off the menu music and I've played it a fraction of the time as GTSport. And that's just the beginning having played the game for a whopping total of 7 hours, compared to 1800 driving hours in GT6.

Now the PCars car sounds are just louder. I'm not saying they are bad, they are good. Here's what's bad however: I jumped into the Ginetta Championship and have been driving that car exclusively. First impressions of the sounds were good, but by race 3 (running 100% length) I'm so tired of the car sounds I don't want to drive it ever again. Looking forward to finish the championship just so I don't have to listen to the same gear clunking over and over and over and over. I think PD has the sounds set more subtly for long term gameplay. All I can expect from the next championship in PCars is another car I'll get sick of after two races. And endurance races? Won't even bother. Was the transmission whine too loud in GTSport? Yes, but they fixed it.

FFB in PCars? Saying nothing new here, there are way too many options. There are so many options that I'll never know their interpretation of what the car is like IRL. It's almost like a cop out; you're given a million variables for YOU to configure leaving all the responsibility on you if the car doesn't feel right. It's like they give you 100,000 piece puzzle to assemble and if you can't get it right, well then it's your fault. It's as if they washed their hands of the settings saying 'Here you go, good luck with that' hiding behind a wall of technical virtuosity that it blinds you from how the car should actually behave. Now I'm not saying the FFB and physics are bad, they are good, and I'm not saying the options are impressive, they are (if you ever dial in the settings), but man up and give us some focus.

Replays are way better in PD games. Have always been the best. PCars replays almost look like cartoons. The lighting effects in PCars are very good, but PD is still the king when it comes to track lighting ambience. I will say that cockpit view options and HUD in PCars is better and looks better than GTSport, but unless PD gives us options in the final game I will give PCars the edge here.

Yes I am disappointed that GTSport has no variable time/weather. PCars has them beat so far on this. Will PD come around? They probably will, just don't know why after all this development time they decided to omit it.

Will I continue to play PCars1? Yes, for a little while longer but I'm sure I'll be finished with it sooner than later. Will I get PCars2? Eventually. But I can tell you the disc that will occupy my PS4 the most will be GTSport.

I utterly disagree with you in regard to sounds between the two, PCars I far, far prefer over GTS (or any previous GT).

However the FFB settings are an utter pain and far too complicated (all of which is gone for PC2), that said help is at hand here:

http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/

This will help you settup the main wheel settings and then also allow you to dial in the FFB on a car, by car basis for your preferred FFB style.

Yes it is a pain to have to do it in the first place, but pick a car and give it a go, most people find it utterly changes the FFB in PCars for the better.

 

[emula]

VS assetto corsa

 

[CSLACR]

Wow!

Now I can only guess that if you are getting a shed load of understeer in AC you are entering corners far, far too fast. Guess what, that's exactly what should happen.

Nor is large angle oversteer easy to correct in reality, TG is not a goo reference point at all, they use a lot of quick cut editing to hide mistakes, have almost unlimited time to get the shots they want and have an airfield in which to do it (having a 'road' as wide as twenty roads does give you a much larger margin for error. Nor did any of the presenters just jump in an powerslide from birth.

Catching and correcting in AC is more than possible, but if you want something that 'helps' you out and flatters you are going to love GTS.





I utterly disagree with you in regard to sounds between the two, PCars I far, far prefer over GTS (or any previous GT).

However the FFB settings are an utter pain and far too complicated (all of which is gone for PC2), that said help is at hand here:

http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/

This will help you settup the main wheel settings and then also allow you to dial in the FFB on a car, by car basis for your preferred FFB style.

Yes it is a pain to have to do it in the first place, but pick a car and give it a go, most people find it utterly changes the FFB in PCars for the better.

So I'm D1G and I don't know what speed to enter a corner?

I've had the back end of cars in real life kick when I wasn't expecting it, in front and rear wheel drive, and never spun out, never slowed to 20mph "saving" it.
So I would think I should be able in a game, on purpose, and with practice. No I do not think it should take me more than 5 hours.

I understand the craze for realism, but making cars wonky is not the same as realism.
Maybe as I drive more cars my view will shift, but currently AC seems ridiculously touchy and hard to control.

As for TG, I don't really care specifics. They all drive around sliding fairly controlled doing much more than I can manage in AC.((while talking)
Just because people can or even I can with enough practice, doesn't make it accurate.

 

[PzR Slim]

I can't do it so it must be broken!

 

[Animera]

I'm also D1G and I struggled with PCARS and AC because of bad habits learned from GT.
But now I can induce and control oversteer in both, and recently when I tried playing GT6 after 2 years away from it, I couldn't believe the difference.

 

[Scaff]

So I'm D1G and I don't know what speed to enter a corner?

I've had the back end of cars in real life kick when I wasn't expecting it, in front and rear wheel drive, and never spun out, never slowed to 20mph "saving" it.
So I would think I should be able in a game, on purpose, and with practice. No I do not think it should take me more than 5 hours.

I understand the craze for realism, but making cars wonky is not the same as realism.
Maybe as I drive more cars my view will shift, but currently AC seems ridiculously touchy and hard to control.

As for TG, I don't really care specifics. They all drive around sliding fairly controlled doing much more than I can manage in AC.((while talking)
Just because people can or even I can with enough practice, doesn't make it accurate.

So you're using GT as a benchmark?

I've had the back end of cars kick out many, many times on track and sometimes it's easy to gather in and other times it's not, it depends on the angle, tyre, track surface and a load of other factors.