GT Sport vs Project CARS 2: A Willow Springs Comparison

[gknap]

Yes, you might be blinded facing the sun and its harder to see, but everything on the ground doesn't go dark like in GTS.
Vertical objects between you and the sun, e.g. a car, may appear dark, black even. But not the road surface in general because it will reflect the sunlight.

 

[Scaff]

Looks like someone didn't get that memo.
(0:48, 1:07, 2:43, 3:12, 3:47, 4:02, 4:22, 6:51, 7:06)

The VLN footage contains a number of shots that quite similar.

 

[Turnaround]

Question regarding GTSport's sun glare, do things get as dark under HDR?

I would think that a benefit of having a wider range of brightness to work with is that more detail is preserved (less is lost in blackness). I don't have an HDR compatible display so I can't test this myself.

 

[digant]

Question regarding GTSport's sun glare, do things get as dark under HDR?

I would think that a benefit of having a wider range of brightness to work with is that more detail is preserved (less is lost in blackness). I don't have an HDR compatible display so I can't test this myself.

It's the same also on an HDR TV. I played GTS beta on a 4K HDR Oled TV (LG B7V 55").

 

[eran0004]

The VLN footage contains a number of shots that quite similar.

Where? I only see zooming and panning - no translation.

 

[digant]

Yes, you might be blinded facing the sun and its harder to see, but everything on the ground doesn't go dark like in GTS.
Vertical objects between you and the sun, e.g. a car, may appear dark, black even. But not the road surface in general because it will reflect the sunlight.


View attachment 677444 View attachment 677445
View attachment 677446

yes. For example the trees are producing shadows in front of you (the sun is just behind them) so you will see them almost black. The same with the road signs etc... You can see all the scenary with a flash for a transient period (when you start the view with the sun in front of you)

 

[gknap]

yes. For example the trees are producing shadows in front of you (the sun is just behind them) so you will see them almost black. The same with the road signs etc...

Yes absolutely, but it wont cast shadows on the whole road. In the Willow springs video there is no vertical object casting a shadow for the entirety of the ground surface, including the track, whenever your driving in the general direction of the sun. The track should appear much brighter.
If you look at the third picture in my post, to the left of the white car. The road surface is actually very bright, not dark as night. Behind the cars though its dark because of the shadows.

 

[lancia delta hf]

I hate the way the GT version goes so dark you cant see the corner (as you face the sun).

This has been a problem at least since GT5P iirc. London track was a bit of an annoyance in this regard.

Tracks constantly evolve and developers don’t rescan it every new game. I made a detailed comparison between Long Beach in Project CARS 2 (scanned in 2016) and Forza 6 (scanned in 2013). And then compared that with both real life footage of both years. The conclusion was that both studios did an amazing job for the year they scanned it in.

The thread can be found here:

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?50446-Recreating-Long-Beach-SMS-vs-Turn-10

It's a good thing to have objects in different placements on the same track in different games. Would be pretty boring to have tracks look identical, other than the crucial details of course.

This is what makes Gran Turismo a unique and above other racing games. Its about details and love about what they are doing. And thats why I love GT, since very first series came up. They are the excellencies on what they are doing!

Yes, no other devs love their games.

I was talking about visual details, and feels of racing.

Feels of racing? You mean incredibly calm cockpit? Slow steering animation as if Miss Daisy is sat in the back? Feels of racing is where GT is absolutely at the back of the cue. Your statement is a stretch.

I think it would be hard to simulate what your eyes experience through camera lenses. I don't think our eyes work like HDR, where they are immediately able to clearly decipher the lightest parts of your FOV from the darkest. PC2 even does it, albeit to a lesser extent. GT's lighting engine allows the effect to be more pronounced, and also the footage is at two different times of day, with GT having more cloud coverage:

That is exactly how your eyes work. Cameras do not have the HDR of the human eye, for years camera manufacturers have been trying to replicate it as close as possible but still far off. It's what the HDR ( or bracketing ) technique was created for.

Go to a room in your home that has sun shinning through it at it's brightest, look towards the window, and see how the room doesn't get darker. Now do that with a camera and take a photo and you will see how your room is under exposed. If you expose for the room then the sun and light coming through the window will be over exposed.

Is dark because is like the real thing....

How have people convinced themselves GT has it true to life? Do people not go outside any more?

The reason why GT's interior goes dark when facing the sun, is the from the same reason why a photo taken towards the sun is also dark, exposure compensation.

Why is PDI trying to simulate a the view through a camera and not my eyes? PDI have got this fundamentally wrong in the last 3 additions of GT and GTS will be the fourth. It's not like reality and it makes no sense. Not least because in reality, when it's a low light situation, our pupils open up to let in more light. So even if it was realistic it makes no sense to replicate it as our eyes won't compensate to let in more light while looking at a dark image and the image would not send us more info anyway.

I think the only way to really replicate reality in this matter is to have a life sized TV as bright as the sun (with HDR or actually Ultra HDR) and ambilights all over the room, or a VR device that knows where your eyes are looking at and then adjust the lighting accordingly.

Are you sure that is the only way? Someone needs to tell Kunos and Evo studios, because they have managed to achieve this on my 40 inch non HDR unimpressive TV. What's more, this should not exist with the HDR feature turned on. This is a PDI issue, maybe it's the engine they use. Either way, others have proved it's not a technology issue.

It's the same also on an HDR TV. I played GTS beta on a 4K HDR Oled TV (LG B7V 55").

They can say Ferrari red all they want. But they can't even create a HDR image while boasting about HDR.

 

[digant]

This has been a problem at least since GT5P iirc. London track was a bit of an annoyance in this regard.

It's a good thing to have objects in different placements on the same track in different games. Would be pretty boring to have tracks look identical, other than the crucial details of course.

Yes, no other devs love their games.

Feels of racing? You mean incredibly calm cockpit? Slow steering animation as if Miss Daisy is sat in the back? Feels of racing is where GT is absolutely at the back of the cue. Your statement is a stretch.


That is exactly how your eyes work. Cameras do not have the HDR of the human eye, for years camera manufacturers have been trying to replicate it as close as possible but still far off. It's what the HDR ( or bracketing ) technique was created for.

Go to a room in your home that has sun shinning through it at it's brightest, look towards the window, and see how the room doesn't get darker. Now do that with a camera and take a photo and you will see how your room is under exposed. If you expose for the room then the sun and light coming through the window will be over exposed.

How have people convinced themselves GT has it true to life? Do people not go outside any more?
Why is PDI trying to simulate a the view through a camera and not my eyes? PDI have got this fundamentally wrong in the last 3 additions of GT and GTS will be the fourth. It's not like reality and it makes no sense. Not least because in reality, when it's a low light situation, our pupils open up to let in more light. So even if it was realistic it makes no sense to replicate it as our eyes won't compensate to let in more light while looking at a dark image and the image would not send us more info anyway.

Are you sure that is the only way? Someone needs to tell Kunos and Evo studios, because they have managed to achieve this on my 40 inch non HDR unimpressive TV. What's more, this should not exist with the HDR feature turned on. This is a PDI issue, maybe it's the engine they use. Either way, others have proved it's not a technology issue.


They can say Ferrari red all they want. But they can't even create a HDR image while boasting about HDR.

People is considering their eyes as a camera. The dark images in GTS is due to under exposure on a camera while the eyes have exactly the opposite view. You will perceive a flash (too much light when you start to see the sun light) and then your eyes will rapidly focus the environment again (reducing the quantity of light hitting the retina).

 

[Silvio]

The reason why GT's interior goes dark when facing the sun, is the from the same reason why a photo taken towards the sun is also dark, exposure compensation.
Only way around is to have some sort of Reinhard tone mapping equivalent

But people who drive the cars dont look true the camera, they have eyes and it isnt real

 

[CoolColJ]

The thing is, your eyes have better dynamic range than cameras and lighting systems in rendering/games
And the type of lightning system used by PD works along the same lines as these


Even in 3D physically based rendering programs, you will still have the same issue. Either you blow out the contrast and make everything washed out when it's bright or turn it down and have things go dark, or try it cheat it using things like Reinhard tone mapping.


see this part is blown out

 

[Greatbee]

This has been a problem at least since GT5P iirc. London track was a bit of an annoyance in this regard.

It's a good thing to have objects in different placements on the same track in different games. Would be pretty boring to have tracks look identical, other than the crucial details of course.

Yes, no other devs love their games.

Feels of racing? You mean incredibly calm cockpit? Slow steering animation as if Miss Daisy is sat in the back? Feels of racing is where GT is absolutely at the back of the cue. Your statement is a stretch.


That is exactly how your eyes work. Cameras do not have the HDR of the human eye, for years camera manufacturers have been trying to replicate it as close as possible but still far off. It's what the HDR ( or bracketing ) technique was created for.

Go to a room in your home that has sun shinning through it at it's brightest, look towards the window, and see how the room doesn't get darker. Now do that with a camera and take a photo and you will see how your room is under exposed. If you expose for the room then the sun and light coming through the window will be over exposed.

How have people convinced themselves GT has it true to life? Do people not go outside any more?
Why is PDI trying to simulate a the view through a camera and not my eyes? PDI have got this fundamentally wrong in the last 3 additions of GT and GTS will be the fourth. It's not like reality and it makes no sense. Not least because in reality, when it's a low light situation, our pupils open up to let in more light. So even if it was realistic it makes no sense to replicate it as our eyes won't compensate to let in more light while looking at a dark image and the image would not send us more info anyway.

Are you sure that is the only way? Someone needs to tell Kunos and Evo studios, because they have managed to achieve this on my 40 inch non HDR unimpressive TV. What's more, this should not exist with the HDR feature turned on. This is a PDI issue, maybe it's the engine they use. Either way, others have proved it's not a technology issue.


They can say Ferrari red all they want. But they can't even create a HDR image while boasting about HDR.

My statement is my opinion, if you have problem with that, than thats your problem!

 

[zzz_pt]

Yes, you might be blinded facing the sun and its harder to see, but everything on the ground doesn't go dark like in GTS.
Vertical objects between you and the sun, e.g. a car, may appear dark, black even. But not the road surface in general because it will reflect the sunlight.


View attachment 677444 View attachment 677445
View attachment 677446

If you pick and choose the pictures, you'll find pretty much anything.

But, public road surface is often more "shiny" because it's not as clean (may have different substances like oils, water, etc) and has a less rough texture - less grip. Drag strips for example, are very shiny because of the stickiness of the products used.

Track surface (or road surface), when new, is less shiny.

But if you want you can find blown out pictures too, like this one:

This is the Nurburgring. Not a very new track / surface by any means.

 

[digant]

If you pick and choose the pictures, you'll find pretty much anything.

But, public road surface is often more "shiny" because it's not as clean (may have different substances like oils, water, etc) and has a less rough texture - less grip. Drag strips for example, are very shiny because of the stickiness of the products used.

Track surface (or road surface), when new, is less shiny.

But if you want you can find blown out pictures too, like this one:

This is the Nurburgring. Not a very new track / surface by any means.

yes, reflection on surfaces depends on different parameters (material, light impact angle etc...). At least your first picture replicates the dark pictures on GTS. The reason is that the picture is clearly under exposed. If you see with your eyes you see a brighter image (as during the day). Futhermore in GTS you see reflections on the tarmac and cockpit but those objects are rendered dark as the rest of the environment.

 

[marcvic]

marcvic:
I think it would be hard to simulate what your eyes experience through camera lenses. I don't think our eyes work like HDR, where they are immediately able to clearly decipher the lightest parts of your FOV from the darkest. PC2 even does it, albeit to a lesser extent. GT's lighting engine allows the effect to be more pronounced, and also the footage is at two different times of day, with GT having more cloud coverage:

That is exactly how your eyes work. Cameras do not have the HDR of the human eye, for years camera manufacturers have been trying to replicate it as close as possible but still far off. It's what the HDR ( or bracketing ) technique was created for.

Go to a room in your home that has sun shinning through it at it's brightest, look towards the window, and see how the room doesn't get darker. Now do that with a camera and take a photo and you will see how your room is under exposed. If you expose for the room then the sun and light coming through the window will be over exposed.

You left the emphasis off the part where I said 'immediately'. Driving into the sun greatly distorts my vision until I either put my visor down or reach for my shades, and it still isn't perfect. Now I'm not saying GTS is perfect, only that there is something beautifully convincing with the way they deal with driving into sunlight. I've felt that way in the past three games, especially when exiting the tunnels in HSR or EN:



The past three GTs did suffer from overly dark cockpits at times (during races in daylight, I always turned the exposure up), but I like the way that they handle it now, especially in the most recent builds that I've seen. The distortion in vision makes it more difficult to focus on the racing line, which I like. As we've seen, anyone can find pics to back up the way either GTS or PC2 handle it, but I prefer the way GTS does it.

 

[gknap]

If you pick and choose the pictures, you'll find pretty much anything.

But, public road surface is often more "shiny" because it's not as clean (may have different substances like oils, water, etc) and has a less rough texture - less grip. Drag strips for example, are very shiny because of the stickiness of the products used.

Track surface (or road surface), when new, is less shiny.

But if you want you can find blown out pictures too, like this one:

This is the Nurburgring. Not a very new track / surface by any means.

Yet on every single picture you have posted the track is brighter and the edges much more visible then the gts video... So I stand by what I've stated. Gts is way to dark when facing the sun.

 

[zzz_pt]

yes, reflection on surfaces depends on different parameters (material, light impact angle etc...). At least your first picture replicates the dark pictures on GTS. The reason is that the picture is clearly under exposed. If you see with your eyes you see a brighter image (as during the day). Futhermore in GTS you see reflections on the tarmac and cockpit but those objects are rendered dark as the rest of the environment.

Race cars often have mylar windshied tear-offs finda of things precisely to protect the driver from that direct sun light for example.

Having said that, I think PD makes a deliberate choice to present the game as best as possible, with a realistic light. Especially since they're using a wider range of color / light. Maybe in a top end TV this doesn't look as dark as we see it. I'm seeing it on a normal monitor but I believe it looks better on high end HDR.


edit:

just came out.

 

[gknap]

Race cars often have mylar windshied tear-offs finda of things precisely to protect the driver from that direct sun light for example.

Having said that, I think PD makes a deliberate choice to present the game as best as possible, with a realistic light. Especially since they're using a wider range of color / light. Maybe in a top end TV this doesn't look as dark as we see it. I'm seeing it on a normal monitor but I believe it looks better on high end HDR.


edit:

just came out.

If that's how it's going to look... No complaints about the lighting here.

 

[cutmeamango]

I can't find the most recent technical presentation about their HDR and tone mapping.
Anyhow, it's a good perceptual approximation as far as real time graphics allow. With more light passes you'd probably have a really close rendition without having to tone and composite per object/plane.

 

[GumShoe]

My statement is my opinion, if you have problem with that, than thats your problem!

"well that's my opinion" is the argument of last resort. In other words you have no better argument than that it's your opinion then you have no argument

Race cars often have mylar windshied tear-offs finda of things precisely to protect the driver from that direct sun light for example.


Having said that, I think PD makes a deliberate choice to present the game as best as possible, with a realistic light.

No, PD makes a deliberate choice to represent the photographer/videographer's best shot, not reality. And that's fine, it's often what people compare to.

Hence Scapes and a focus on replay quality rather than game play...

 

[GBO Possum]

Delicious irony that a description of audio should be using the word "mute" instead of the intended "moot"

 

[Silvio]

Well i see in which way GTS evoluating

 

[05XR8]

No it doesn't. CAMCATs run between two fixed points, while many of the flying camera paths in the video are curved. Additionally, CAMCATs are typically (always?) positioned high up from the ground, while many of the views on the video are very close to the ground. Finally, I doubt any real life TV production team would get permission to run a high speed CAMCAT inside the crash barriers and at head level.

This is what CAMCAT footage looks like:





If that is what they were trying to simulate, they didn't do very well.

I know what CAMCAT views look like. I've seen it used during footage of in the model of Hockenheim, back in the day.
My point is, in 10 days, we will see if GTS incorporates authentic tv camera angles. In PC2, the time was taken to get those views down pat. Rotating around the car, is not of them.

 

[eran0004]

I know what CAMCAT views look like. I've seen it used during footage of in the model of Hockenheim, back in the day.
My point is, in 10 days, we will see if GTS incorporates authentic tv camera angles. In PC2, the time was taken to get those views down pat. Rotating around the car, is not of them.

No, that was not your point. Your point was that PC2 didn't have any unrealistic camera angles.

I don't care about authentic tv camera angles, because I'm playing a game and not watching tv so in my book spectacular views are better than authentic views. Additionally, authentic camera angles at Nordschelife would be mostly onboard footage, since no tv production team would have the resources to put a camera crew at every single corner of the track. And that would be pretty boring in the long run. But maybe you can fill the gaps with simulated smartphone videos taken by spectators and uploaded to youtube with crappy sound and vertical format