GT4 Dampers

[sucahyo]

What car is that sucahyo?

Fully tuned Lotus Elise

 

[VIPFREAK]

really? in GT2? hmm... maybe I'll pop it in.

 

[sucahyo]

really? in GT2? hmm... maybe I'll pop it in.

Ok, use this address to change it to max (PAL code for PEC+epsxe) in case you want to feel more car bouncing when driving, which can be fun .

8016e914-15 -> BBC
8016e916-17 -> downforce
8016e91E-1F -> camber
8016e920-21 -> ride height
8016e922-23 -> toe 0 = 128 = *0.05 +6.4
8016e924-25 -> spring rate
8016e926-27 -> nose dive damper, default 75 (not accessible from setup screen)
8016e928-2F -> front damper bound /fdr/rdb/rdr x 2
8016e930-31 -> stabilizer
8016e932-37 -> LSD, initial front/ir/af/ar/df/dr 23=19 = -4

 

[VIPFREAK]

WhOa... I have no idea what all that is... I'll just use my existing cheats and build it up. Unless I already have one built up.

 

[sucahyo]

Ok

BTW anyone have section cut image of liquid filled adjustable damper ?
this is the best that I have

the hole determine how much the vertical brake force (damper hardness). bigger makes damper soft, smaller makes damper hard.

 

[Scaff]

Scaff, I guess I was wrong to call weight distribution changing as weight transfer. About the guide, I think its theory because you don't mention how you came up with it, sorry.

You can think my guide is theory all you want, its not. How did I come up with the results, quite simply I have had GT4 since its launch date in the UK (which is about nine months ago) and constantly run tests and set-up cars for that entire period.

I spent about two weeks doing little else but suspension set-up tests, the simple reason these are not included in the guide, is because its a set-up guide, not a set of test details.

I have no intention at all of typing out a dozen A4 notebooks (at 30pages each), editing and sorting them for addition into the guide. The end result would be unuseable and of little interest to most people (besides the guide in its current form took around 20 - 30 hours just to type up and edit). Besides the guide already contains a working example of using the settings in GT4, anyone with GT4 can follow this and see and feel the effectof the changes.

Nothing theoretical about it at all.

About braking, do you tune BBC using stand still weight dist? because you tune it first. As you say ride height affect weight dist, then isn't this make your BBC wrong for moving car if you change it later than BBC?

You may need to read the guide a bit more carefully, while I do personally do the initial tuning of the BBC as one of the first parts of a set-up. I do also say that this will need to be looked at and tweaked throughout the set-up, as all areas of the tuning will do.

It is quite clearly stated a number of times in the guide, first in the section on the Brake Balance Controller itself.

Remember that the above is a guide only and the most difficult thing to judge is going to be the amount of weight transferred. Keep in mind that the only adjustments in GT4 that will effect the amount of weight transferred are the following:

Weight Reduction 1 - 3
Ride height adjustment
Ballast

Keep brake balance in mind if you change any of the above.

It is also convered in the example of a tune, in which the brake bias is set as one of the first areas covered, but following the ride height adjustment I say:

Given the flat nature of the circuit and the low curbs and rumble-strips I then played with the Ride Height, dropping it in stages and testing until I got to 79 (from 84). This helped with the weight transfer and still allowed the car to make use of the curbs when needed without bottoming out.

On testing this did however reveal that the brakes had started to become a little snatchy, possibly a result of the ride height drop playing with the weight transfer. Lowering the brake bias to 4/3 (from 5/4) solved this one.

About spring rate, are you saying that "spring rate doesn't effect body roll" or
"body roll is happens because weight transfer and spring rate" ? The reason I post elise picture is because the only difference between them is spring rate, 0.1 vs 20.0. Or I was wrong to call the left image has more body roll?

The two options you have given ("spring rate doesn't effect body roll" or
"body roll is happens because weight transfer and spring rate") are not ones I would use, but the second one is closest. I realy can't think of a simplier way to describe it that the one I have already used.

As I said in my last post

Body roll is simply how the car moves under weight transfer, spring rates determine how far it will move, dampers control how quickly it moves.

I will convince 1 is softer than 10 if there are GT4 video or picture of damper in action.

I have to say that I do not understand you're unwillingness to trust any of us who have GT4 with regard to what is universal agreement on damper settings.

However I will see if I can get some rough and ready video clips of damper settings done for you.


Regards

Scaff

 

[sucahyo]

You can think my guide is theory all you want, its not. How did I come up with the results, quite simply I have had GT4 since its launch date in the UK (which is about nine months ago) and constantly run tests and set-up cars for that entire period.

You got me wrong, I should rephrase that.
About the guide, I think its theory BEFORE because you don't mention how you came up with it, sorry.
I mean, previously I think your test is theorical. Now I think your guide is experimental.


About the BBC, ok, my mistakes.
About spring rate, still don't understand, so how far it move is not count as transfer?
About the video, thank you, I will wait. My stubbornness came from my unbelieve that what I assume this time is wrong (toe and especially, damper).

 

[Scaff]

Ok

BTW anyone have section cut image of liquid filled adjustable damper ?
this is the best that I have

the hole determine how much the vertical brake force (damper hardness). bigger makes damper soft, smaller makes damper hard.

Hows this

Key to Shock Absorber Cutaway
1. Supporting ring halves
2. N/A
3. Stop rubbers
4. Threaded seal ring - AC 10x19x7
5. Piston with non return valve (top) and damping valve (bottom)
6. Bottom valve supporting ring
7. Tolerance group marking
8. Protective sleeve
9. Compression spring
10. Piston tube
11. Adjusting arm

Taken from here

Hope that helps.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Scaff]

I mean, previously I think your test is theorical. Now I think your guide is experimental.

No problem with that at all, because all tuning is experimental.

About the BBC, ok, my mistakes.
About spring rate, still don't understand, so how far it move is not count as transfer?
About the video, thank you, I will wait. My stubbornness came from my unbelieve that what I assume this time is wrong (toe and especially, damper).

How far a car moves under weight transfer does not change how much weight is transfered. The amount of weight transfer remains the same, justthe amount of movement (spring rate) and speed of movement (dampers) changes with the spring and damper settings.

Heres the vids

Caterham Damper Bound 1 Rebound 2


Caterham Damper Bound 10 rebound 10



The first is my settings for the Caterham at Deep Forest and the car, as you can see flows over the rumble strip well, keeping good contact with the track surface. You can also see that under accelaration the wheel travel is well controlled.

The second vidoe just has the dampers changed to Bound 10 and Rebound 10 (all other settings are kept the same), you can see the car is far more difficult to control under acceleration and over the rumble strip the suspension can not keep up and the wheel is forced into the air as the force almost bipasses the suspension and is transfered directly to the cars chassis.

I know the quality of the videos is not great, but it does illustrate what has already been discussed.

Regards

Scaff

 

[sucahyo]

Thanks for the image.

About the spring rate, ok.

About the video, I am sorry if this is asking too much, but can we see the wheel from wheel cam in GT4? Can you make the video for it ?

In the mean time, I try to create split screen video for it, how come the video speed is different?

 

[sukerkin]

S - for goodness sake, my friend, leave it alone already .

It is a fact that what you've been told so far is accurate with regard to how Dampers work in the real world and how they work in GT4.

To keep re-phrasing the same question time after time is akin to a child continually asking why the sky is blue - it is (and it's something to do with frequency shifting due to airborne particulates and refraction of the Earths surface)!

Scaff has more patience than me, so he may well continue this. I, however, shall not, as altho' I admire a quest for knowledge, wilful gainsaying of what is established beyond reasonable doubt winds me up (especially when I've had a dram or two :hic: 'scuse me ).

My real world profession (as in the job I get paid for rather than the one I do for fun) is as a software engineer. As such, I'm puzzled why you feel that this is any direct relation between what you see on screen (in the post-race replay) and what is going on in the physics engine. I can say from experience that the chaps that coded each section more than likely did not have all that much to do with each other and so it is unlikely that there will be a direct and concrete correlation between the two (other than in the roughest sense of the car model reacting to the external environment).

A much better route is to go by how the car 'feels' to drive and what lap times are produced (a technique I know you've used before) than what the game shows on screen for a replay.

I'm not intending to be as brusque as I'm sounding, honestly (I'm tired and more than a little drunk I'm ashamed to say).

I can only repeat what I've said before - learn about how suspensions work in the real world and then worry about how well the games reflect that. Coming at it from the 'games' end of the 'knowledge telescope' will only serve to confuse you, as any physics engine running on a platform as limited as the PS2 will be riddled with compromises, fudges and 'close-enough' approximations.

 

[sucahyo]

The reason why I am so stubborn is:
- Veteran 5 years GT2 tuner tell me that 1 is softer than 10, which is not.
- Any GT2 guide in the internet will say the same
- GT1 and GT2 have very different damper tuning behaviour, 1 is softest in GT1, 10 is softest in GT2.

Unlike road cars, occupant comfort does not enter the equation – spring and damper rates are very firm to ensure the impact of hitting bumps and kerbs is defused as quickly as possible. The spring absorbs the energy of the impact, the shock absorber releases it on the return stroke, and prevents an oscillating force from building up. Think in terms of catching a ball rather than letting it bounce.

This makes me believe that using hard spring should be accompany with hard damper. So if you feel hard spring is stable with 1 damper, then 1 damper is hardest. They don't use soft damper when using hard spring, the use hard damper too. Or formula1 web site is not credible?
This is true for both GT1 and GT2, when using hard spring rate, in GT1 I use 6 damper, in GT2 I use 1 damper. Hard spring use hard damper.

And, this shouldn't change your tuning in any way. It only change how we understand the game.

About feels, I never feel how real life car behaviour with too soft damper, or too hard damper.
About lap time, even with B-Spec its impossible to know the difference.

I am a programmer, and believe the fact that user guide write and programmer is rarely the same person. I never do 3d game, but I guide my junior to create 2d game. And I think feel and looks have to be synchronize to make it good. So far, I am impress. It would be a waste to not visualized what the physics engine reaction do if the platform can support it. ex. no spark in GT2 when bottoming, it exist in GT3.
I learn GT physics engine because I want to tune for just this GT. I don't care about real life physics. I just want to use it on this game.

Am I wrong to call damper as vertical movement brake? I assume it from this:

When a moving load contacts the piston road, it moves the piston inward, forcing fluid through the orifices in the inner cylinder wall. The fluid is forced through the oil return passages, into the space be hind the piston head. As the piston retracts, it closes the orifices behind it, reducing the effective metering area, and maintaining a uniform deceleration force as the load loses its energy. Fluid pressure is constant in a shock absorber, providing constant resistance to the load. The load slows to a stop as its kinetic energy approaches zero. There is no rebound because the shock absorber stores no energy. To return to its extended position, several events must happen. First, the load must be removed from the piston. The spring then pushes the piston outward, opening a check valve, which permits fluid to flow from behind the piston to the space the piston was in its retracted position. Smaller shock absorbers, with bores under 3 in., have a ball check valve to control fluid flow. Larger models use a piston-ring check valve.
...
The dial rotates through 90° or 180°, and is calibrated on a scale from 1 to 10. Usually, the higher the number, the greater the resistance to impact.

GT2 engine use unusual setting, and GT1 use usual setting.


About scaff video, do the B10 R10 video has the wheel travel more than B1 R2 video? if it is, what makes the wheel travel more if its not because of less dampening?

It looks like the same as GT2 behaviour. In GT1 using 1 damper will make the car looks like GT4 10 damper video, but I am not sure. I will post GT1 and GT2 video replay comparison later.

 

[VIPFREAK]

Wow, that was so refreshingly kick ass! I forgot GT2 had the Lotus Elise GT1 in it! It sounded great, handled great, but didn't look all that great. Still kick ass! 👍

 

[sucahyo]

Wow, that was so refreshingly kick ass! I forgot GT2 had the Lotus Elise GT1 in it! It sounded great, handled great, but didn't look all that great. Still kick ass! 👍

Nice car .

About GT1 and GT2 video, here it is:
Light tuned R33, max spring rate, 1 (no) stabilizer, 0 camber.

GT1 damper 1

GT1 damper 6

GT2 damper 1

GT2 damper 10


GT1 R33 with 1 damper is jumpy. Using 6 damper make it LESS jumpy.
GT2 R33 with 1 damper is a bit jumpy. Using 10 damper make it MORE jumpy.
The car is more difficult to control using 1 damper on GT1, 10 damper on GT2. I don't know about wheel travel.

What do you think? which GT is closer to GT4?

 

[Scaff]

About the video, I am sorry if this is asking too much, but can we see the wheel from wheel cam in GT4? Can you make the video for it ?

In the mean time, I try to create split screen video for it, how come the video speed is different?

I will see what I can do with regard to wheel cam videos, but you do also need to see how the whole car moves as well as just the wheel.

The vids were taken with my digital cameras 'movie' feature, hence the quality, as far as I am aware the video speed is the same, the cars speed is not, as the harder damper settings don't let you get the traction down and the car is a nightmare to drive as it jumps and skips almost all the time.

The reason why I am so stubborn is:
- Veteran 5 years GT2 tuner tell me that 1 is softer than 10, which is not.
- Any GT2 guide in the internet will say the same
- GT1 and GT2 have very different damper tuning behaviour, 1 is softest in GT1, 10 is softest in GT2.
This makes me believe that using hard spring should be accompany with hard damper. So if you feel hard spring is stable with 1 damper, then 1 damper is hardest. They don't use soft damper when using hard spring, the use hard damper too. Or formula1 web site is not credible?
This is true for both GT1 and GT2, when using hard spring rate, in GT1 I use 6 damper, in GT2 I use 1 damper. Hard spring use hard damper.

With regard to GT and Gt2, its been so long since I tuned a car in either that I can't remember any issue with them. May have to drag both back out and have a play around.

I would quite agree that spring and damper settings need to be matched and that a stiff spring setting would normally have a stiff damper setting. However both need to be matched to the car and track. Remember that a spring rating of say 4 will be hard for a lightweight car, but soft on a heavy car. Also soft settings will be required for a bumpy track and hard settings for a smooth track.

F1 cars do run very hard settings for dampers and springs, but you do need to also consider a number of factors in with this.

1. The FIA dictate the nature of F1 tracks and they are very, very smooth, with no major changes in gradient and low curbing.
2. F1 cars run tyres with very high sidewalls, as a result they compliance of the sidewall actually acts as a form of suspension. This allows stiffer settings to be used as the tyre sidewall is doing someof the work.
3. Downforce, F1 cars operate with significant levelsof downforce, this produces extra load that the suspension must support. As such the supension needs to be stiffer to cope with the additional load.
4. F1 cars will run softer set-ups at certain circuits, Monaco being a classic example.

And, this shouldn't change your tuning in any way. It only change how we understand the game.

About feels, I never feel how real life car behaviour with too soft damper, or too hard damper.
About lap time, even with B-Spec its impossible to know the difference.

I have felt how over and under damped cars feel in the real world (I work as a training consultant in the motor industry) and can assure you that in GT4 low damper values feel like cars with soft damping and high values feel like cars with hard damping.

My own car is a good example of this, I drive a Toyota Celica (current generation) and it has (for a road car) a firm set-up for both springs and dampers. On smooth roads it flows very, very well; but ruts and potholes, etc cause the car to jump and skip, on occasion losing contact with the road. This is exactly how high damper and spring values feel in GT4.

In regard to lap times, I quite agree that they are not a good guide, as a slightly different entry to a corner can make a big difference, that has nothing to do with the settings.

I learn GT physics engine because I want to tune for just this GT. I don't care about real life physics. I just want to use it on this game.

Am I wrong to call damper as vertical movement brake? I assume it from this:
GT2 engine use unusual setting, and GT1 use usual setting.

I don't see how you can fuly understand what GT2 (or any racing game for that matter) is doing with its physics engine and suspension settings unless you have a good understanding of what should happen in the real world.

You are not wrong to describe what dampers do as vertical movement brakes, as they do control the speed at which the suspension will travel (but remember they do not control how much movement occurs).

About scaff video, do the B10 R10 video has the wheel travel more than B1 R2 video? if it is, what makes the wheel travel more if its not because of less dampening?

I thought we had covered this one already, dampers do not control how much wheel travel occurs, they control how quickly it travels. The Caterham in the clips is using the following spring rates (7.5f 6.0r), this is kept the same for both as if you start changing spring rates as well as damper settings then the results are not going to be compariable.

The clips may not be of the best quality, but they do show that the suspension on the soft settings (B1 R2) is able to move very quickly and track the surface changes in the road and on the rumble strip. You will see that the car rarely looses contact with the road surface. The dampers are able to keep up.

In contrast the clip of the dampers set to (B10 R10) the suspension is moving much more slowly and has problems tracking the surface changes in the road and on the rumble strip. You can also clearly see (despite the quality) that the car has great problems keeping in contact with the road as the dampers are not able to keep up.

I did not at any point say that stiff damper settings (or for that matter stiff spring rates) will stop the suspension from moving, even very stiff spring and damper settings will allow movement. The only way you would stop the wheel from moveing would be to replace the springs and dampers with a solid metal rod (which would not be a very clever thing to do).


Regards

Scaff

 

[sucahyo]

I will see what I can do with regard to wheel cam videos, but you do also need to see how the whole car moves as well as just the wheel.

Thanks, I'll try noticing.

as far as I am aware the video speed is the same, the cars speed is not, as the harder damper settings don't let you get the traction down and the car is a nightmare to drive as it jumps and skips almost all the time.

I see, never thought of that.

I have felt how over and under damped cars feel in the real world (I work as a training consultant in the motor industry) and can assure you that in GT4 low damper values feel like cars with soft damping and high values feel like cars with hard damping.

Nice car you have there . Ok, 60% convince 10 is stiffest.

About the F1, ok.


About damper, let me summary, in GT4:

1. higher value have more resistance
2. higher value have slower movement
3. higher value make it jittery, jump and skips.
4. a 20/20 10/10/10/10 would make the car very jumpy and shaky to the point of " WTF" .
5. At 10, the car shakes and vibrates badly in over 300 mph, , if damping is set to 1, a higher speed will be possible, than if set to 10.
6. bumpier road need softer damper
7. faster top speed need softer damper
8. heavier car need stiffer damper.
9. Dampers too hard = Traction is lost easily, particularly over rises and crests. Bumps, curbs, etc cause the wheel to skip as it is not able to track the road easily. This is very visable on replays. The car will feel stiff and can skip around.
10. Damper too soft = Car rolls quickly and may ground if ride height is set to low. Wallowy feel over crests and bumps, car may carry on reacting after a bump has been encounter, particularly if the spring rate is also soft.
11. Damper_B1_R2.MPG shows the car passing bump smoothly
12. Damper_B10_R10.MPG shows the car reacting to bump more.

Number 1,3,4,5,6,7,9,11,12 is the same as GT2. This what's convince me that 1 is stiffest in GT4.

This is with the F1 car @ Nurburgring.

1. With the springs at 20 / 20 and both bound and rebound at 10 / 10, the car was very unstable, very unpredictable.
2. With the springs at 20 / 20 and the bound/rebound at 1 / 1 each, the car was more stable, but understeered slightly more.
3. With the springs at 10 / 10 and the bound/rebound at 10 / 10 each, the car handled better than #2 and was a bit more stable than #2. But it was more sluggish than either #1, #2, or #4.
4. With the springs at 17 / 17 and the bound at 3 / 3, and rebound at 6 / 6, the car was slightly less stable than #3, but had sharper handling.

Don't you think it's weird that you can stabilize your harder spring rate with softer damper?
If you think harder spring need softer damper, then an extremely hard spring rate (ex. jumbo jet) use almost zero damper ?

 

[Mt. Lynx]

About damper, let me summary, in GT4:

1. higher value have more resistance
2. higher value have slower movement
3. higher value make it jittery, jump and skips.
4. a 20/20 10/10/10/10 would make the car very jumpy and shaky to the point of " WTF" .
5. At 10, the car shakes and vibrates badly in over 300 mph, , if damping is set to 1, a higher speed will be possible, than if set to 10.
6. bumpier road need softer damper
7. faster top speed need softer damper
8. heavier car need stiffer damper.
9. Dampers too hard = Traction is lost easily, particularly over rises and crests. Bumps, curbs, etc cause the wheel to skip as it is not able to track the road easily. This is very visable on replays. The car will feel stiff and can skip around.
10. Damper too soft = Car rolls quickly and may ground if ride height is set to low. Wallowy feel over crests and bumps, car may carry on reacting after a bump has been encounter, particularly if the spring rate is also soft.
11. Damper_B1_R2.MPG shows the car passing bump smoothly
12. Damper_B10_R10.MPG shows the car reacting to bump more.

Number 1,3,4,5,6,7,9,11,12 is the same as GT2. This what's convince me that 1 is stiffest in GT4.

May I comment?
#2 is not really true, the movement is shorter, not actually slower (well, that too). The speed of damping is (or should be) consistant (during the same workload). A higher pressure in the damper would make it´s movement shorter, and more direct, ie harder. However, due to how large the workload is, you might be able to produce the same length of movement, but in that case it would be slower.
#5 is more advanced than that, and just for simplicity, I can add that the statement is only, or mostly true if the car is too low.

If all the other points (exception: 10) are the same as GT4, wouldn´t that mean that 1 is softest in GT2 too? Everything points that way.

You should actually play the game, just to feel the difference in the physics of the cars. GT4 is way more advanced than any of the others in the GT series in that area.

 

[sucahyo]

I see.

I believe 100% that in GT2 damper 1 is stiffest.

Driving using damper 20, the car have more bouncing
Driving using damper 30, even on full stop condition after braking, the car wouldn't stop bouncing.
Driving using damper 40, worse.
Driving using damper 255, even the computer driver have difficulty to control the car, on any spring rate. Higher spring rate make faster and higher bouncing.

 

[Scaff]

Number 1,3,4,5,6,7,9,11,12 is the same as GT2. This what's convince me that 1 is stiffest in GT4.

I totaly fail to see how you come to that conclusion?

Point 11 and 12 alone indicate quite clearly that lower settings are softer as they allow the suspension to track quickly over the rumble strip (11) and higher settings are stiffer as they cause the car to skip and jump over the rumble strip (12).

As Team666 has said, from this reasoning it would clearly indicate that lower is softer in GT4 (as we have all said), and if you find GT2 to be the same then lower is softer would also be true for GT2.

Don't you think it's weird that you can stabilize your harder spring rate with softer damper?
If you think harder spring need softer damper, then an extremely hard spring rate (ex. jumbo jet) use almost zero damper ?

No I don't think its wierd at all, as I have said before, suspension setting have guidelines, but they are always limited by the car, track and drivers style. No fixed rules exist about what makes a good set-up, what one driver will like another will hate. The same is true of different cars, some are easy to set-up, others are a nightmare.

The basic guidelines that we have all covered, such as a bumpier track will require a softer set-up is true, how soft is the question. That will depend on the car, exactly how bumpy the track is and the drivers style.

With regard to damper settings on Jumbo Jets, I would personally have no idea how they are set, but findit hard to believe that they would use almost zero dampers.

You need to stop thinking that this can be broken down into a formula that can be used for all cars on a certain track. In GT4 this just will not work, each car has to be set-up itself.


Lastly I would like to say that I am not convinced with the use of very extreme hacked values to test this, nor the use of a computer driver.

The Seattle jump tests are a point in case, very stiff settings would in reality cause the car to slam into the track surface and almost certainly start an end over end roll. Much like Petter Solburg managed in the ADAC German rally a few years ago (and before you ask, its a tarmac rally so the cars run stiff suspension and low ride heights).

None of the GT series allows a car to roll over or flip, so the games engine is going to be interviening here and that is going to throw youre results.

Also the reliance on computer drivers menas that you are missing one of the best indicators of what is going on, that of how the car feels.

I feel that sticking with GT2's default range of values and driving all tests yourself would give more viable results.

I personally would start by setting a car up to run nicely at a bumpy track (such as Deep Forest) and then changing only the damper settings. I would compare my 'good' settings with the lowest(1) and highest(10) default values.

This would give a much more objective test that the ones you have run to date.

If I have the time I may even run these myself.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Mt. Lynx]

I see.

I believe 100% that in GT2 damper 1 is stiffest.

Driving using damper 20, the car have more bouncing
Driving using damper 30, even on full stop condition after braking, the car wouldn't stop bouncing.
Driving using damper 40, worse.
Driving using damper 255, even the computer driver have difficulty to control the car, on any spring rate. Higher spring rate make faster and higher bouncing.

Can´t you see what you´re saying? The higher the value, the harder the damper! The harder you set the value, the jumpier the car will be. A soft value will make the car wobbly at best, but it will not jump whatsoever, unless the springs are too hard and the dampers "go through" themselves.

 

[sucahyo]

The car jump when in full stop condition, with slow up and down movement, with wheel going up and down like pendulum. I use 0.1 spring rate, that is 1/20 normal lowest, which is 2.0. I post the video later. The wheel goes up and down passing zero point infinitely.
Are you saying the tire can make you jump?

As programmer I believe range checking is bad, except for security reason. Thus I believe damper 20 is twice damper 10 value.

I think maybe the reason is:
1 is medium in GT2 -> medium in GT4
10 is softest in GT2 -> stiffest in GT4

I think of that because I never experience too hard damper in GT2, I feel it in GT1.
I read somewhere that using damper too hard have the same feeling as too soft.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

Can't it make the car jump when in full stop condition? with slow up and down movement? with wheel going up and down like pendulum? I use 0.1 spring rate, that is 1/20 normal lowest, which is 2.0. I post the video later. The wheel goes up and down passing zero point infinitely.
Are you saying the tire can make you jump?

A very soft damping, should NOT make the car jump, especially if the springs are also very soft. The car may tilt from side to side and front to back, possibly uncontrollably, but it should not jump. If set that low, the only way to make it jump, would be to go over a big jump and land it hard, thus making the carbody in itself bounce off the ground, but that would only continue untill the rideheight has leveled out the rest of the suspension.
If the dampers are too hard, like 255, the jumping on the other hand wouldn´t stop for a very long time. The car would in essence become a pogostick...

 

[sucahyo]

A very soft damping, should NOT make the car jump, especially if the springs are also very soft. The car may tilt from side to side and front to back, possibly uncontrollably, but it should not jump. The car would in essence become a pogostick...

The car jump because when the wheel reach max swing it get another input. Yes, the car became 4 wheel pogo stick. You can see the video on https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=2057725#post2057725

And Scaff, if you want to compare, compare GT4 with GT1.
About testing 10 vs 1, I know its different. But I can't see which is which. And I don't have literature for real life damping behaviour in corner. ie, too hard/too soft/just right.

 

[sukerkin]

Hi S

If you're after a description of how a suspension behaves inthe real world then you won't go far wrong reading through the smithees-racetech site.

Some of the pages take a bit of finding because they used to be ozbiz and haven't done a great job of updating some of their links but it's worth digging for.

They cover all the essentials and don't assume that the reader knows a great lot about how cars work.

 

[Boundary Layer]

Hi S

If you're after a description of how a suspension behaves inthe real world then you won't go far wrong reading through the smithees-racetech site.

Some of the pages take a bit of finding because they used to be ozbiz and haven't done a great job of updating some of their links but it's worth digging for.

They cover all the essentials and don't assume that the reader knows a great lot about how cars work.

link: http://www.smithees-racetech.com.au/theory/shocktune.html

(I had it bookmarked)
It is, as Sukerkin say, extremely informative and explanations are given in good amounts of detail. The Neil Roberts article that is linked to is also worth a look.

 

[sucahyo]

(I had it bookmarked)
It is, as Sukerkin say, extremely informative and explanations are given in good amounts of detail. The Neil Roberts article that is linked to is also worth a look.

Thank you all , I think I will compare the GT1 and GT2 and see if the physics engine is consistent. And see which is closer to GT4 ...................

 

[Scaff]

I sat down last night for a few hours and using a TVR Griffith 500 had a play with the damper settings in GT, GT2, GT3 and GT4 for this car.

While I do not have the exact settings you get by default (I will try and post these up later) on me.

I ran the car with the default setting (which varies from game to game) and then at 1/1 and 10/10 front and back. Apart from GT which only allows a single damper setting, rather than bound and rebound settings.

With a ride and drive analysis of these settings and visual checks using the replays I am totaly confident that across the entire GT series 1 is the softest setting and 10 the hardest setting for dampers.

Without exception the TVR felt and handled as a softly damped car when set to 1 and as a stiffly damped car when set to 10.

The car was stock in each version, with the exception of fitting the race spec suspension. Only the damper settings were changed, the rest of the suspension settings were left at the default value. Finally all cars were run at Deep Forest.

My conclusion is that the extreme values used in sucahyo's tests may have throw the results out, as GT2 is consistent with every other GT in the damper settings.

Regards

Scaff

 

[sucahyo]

I don't know,

GT1: 3.2/2.6 spring rate, 146/146 ride height, super soft tire.
1/1 damper noticably has more bounce than 6/6 damper
I don't use 10/10 in GT1 because I think it is too hard. But it is very obvious that 1 is softest in GT1.

GT2: 3.2/2.6 spring rate, 145/145 ride height, super soft tire.
I have no clue which has more bounce.


I just finished test smythee Phase 1
"Phase 1 : Increasing braking + increasing steering", hard braking in a corner.
"Since weight is being transferred both forward and outboard, the outside front damper moves in the bump direction. Also, the inside rear damper moves in rebound. The other two dampers do not move as much or as rapidly, so their effects are minimal."

on GT2 only (I just realize that I can't set bound and rebound separately in GT1.) Lotus elise in apricot hill first corner with 135/135 ride height, 2.0/2.0 spring rate.

for more undeersteer elise: more front bound, less rear rebound. (do this mean less damper have more grip?)

Scenario 1: 1 is softest.
10/1 10/1 damper result : more oversteer, WRONG

Scenario 2: 1 is stiffest
1/10 1/10 damper result : more understeer, CORRECT

Conclusion: 1 is stiffest in GT2. Same as extreme value test.


I guess scenario 1 is correct in GT4?
But this post (DSJ: Vol 7 - '05 Ford Mustang GT) show that you can get more oversteer with scenario 1 (just like GT2). Bound 4 3, Rebound 8 6, or maybe the oversteer is from other setting.

Team666, about your Minolta Toyota 88C-V,
Damper Bound - 10/1
Damper Rebound - 10/1

What's this damper combination for ?

 

[Mt. Lynx]

Team666, about your Minolta Toyota 88C-V,
Damper Bound - 10/1
Damper Rebound - 10/1

What's this damper combination for ?

To perform a 300, or even 350 mph run, the springs has to be as soft as allowed on the car. You must also jack up the front end of the car, do get air to "lift" the front, and at the same time you use maximum downforce, front and rear, to counter that lift. To go extremley fast, doing a wheelie will continously accelerate the car, but the rules stated in the 300mph thread, states all four wheels on the ground is a must, so we set our cars up to to do so. That means we sacrifice the possible top speed, but at the same time keep things a tad more real. Now, airflow is not very well depicted in GT4, and we take advantage of that by raising the front and lowering the rear.
When you reach a certain speed, usually 320mph, the car will start to nod the front up and down, and to prevent a huge loss in speed, wich occurs if the damping is too soft in the front (the nod becomes too deep, and you bottom out), a 10/1 setting will help the front to "stand up", and minimize the nodding.

Scenario 1: 1 is softest.
10/1 10/1 damper result : more oversteer, WRONG

Scenario 2: 1 is stiffest
1/10 1/10 damper result : more understeer, CORRECT

Conclusion: 1 is stiffest in GT2. Same as extreme value test.

Maybe the Elise is a bad example, but usually, if you stiffen up the front, you get more oversteer, so that is actually correct. Do your testing in a heavy FR car instead (Viper perhaps) of a very light MR, and you will have an easier time feeling/seeing what happens to the car.

 

[sucahyo]

a 10/1 setting will help the front to "stand up", and minimize the nodding.

I see.

Maybe the Elise is a bad example, but usually, if you stiffen up the front, you get more oversteer, so that is actually correct. Do your testing in a heavy FR car instead (Viper perhaps) of a very light MR, and you will have an easier time feeling/seeing what happens to the car.

I say correct and wrong here related to smythee theory, which state that if we add more front bound it should be more understeer.
If you say that, this mean 1 is stiffest in GT4. But I will try again using V8 Vantage (3094 lbs).....