GT5 Physics - Spec 2.0

[NLxAROSA]

Is this serious? Not trying to come at you, but cars lose and gain power in GT5. Isn't that what wearing out and breaking in an engine is?

Your sarcasm-detector is broken.

 

[Sach]

Played the game in Spec 2.0 tonight for the first time, physics feel no different to me.

 

[CSLACR]

I did some more serious lapping tonight in a SuperGT and I have to say, aside from small steering changes and it being easier to counter over-steer, I see zero difference in the physics.
Suspension travel, absorbing bumps, grip, car rotation, everything is exactly the same for me, the racing cars are still bumpy as hell even with "soft" suspension settings, it's just... the same.

The steering changes, whatever they may be, are more then welcomed by me though, I always hated how hard it was to gain control once a slide started, as it was nothing like my real life experiences, and it seems much better now, a proper counter-steer brings you back inline now, whereas before it seemed catered to DS3 users, as I could much more easily drift and control slides with a thumb then a full wheel.

 

[amar212]

Okay, yesterday I finally managed to finish a real G25 vs. GT2 SPec 2.0 test and results are great.

With this 2.0 update I could finally match my pre Spec2.0 times achieved by G25 with my Fanatec GT2.

Supercar Nostalgia Nurburgring test was full success. My way of driving managed to achieve win with the Fanatec GT2 and same car/settings.

Great, great job, I can't tell what exactly are the differences that made it, but I can say how all Fanatec owners will be pleased with this update.

 

[Astro_BS-AS]

Well, you're doing something wrong..

SRF for one and not the other?
In any case, if you can run within 5-10 seconds of my times you'll get gold in the challenge no problem. 👍

And I did mine without SRF.

Sorry, but what Skid Recovery Force has to do with "Grip reduction on track edges" set to low or real?

Or even, what does it has to do with a car equipped with special tires? And by that I mean a WRC with dirt tires in a track as Toscana....

I don´t get it.
What are you trying to prove?

 

[BWX]

I raced a couple hours online and raced a created course for an hour or so in arcade mode last night.. second day with GT5 SpecII. Release day I got abot 12 hours on the game, all with no driving aids.

People who can't tell the difference in physics must not have a wheel, or if they do, they must not have a good "feel" for GT5, or something. I think the differences in physics are massive. It's like driving a new and better sim now. Turn-in acts completely different now.. to me it feels closer to what happens in a real car in FR, FF, and especially MR and RR cars.

You can ''throw'' a car into a turn now, without race tires, just like IRL.. and you can ''catch'' a car with a well timed flick of the wheel, just like in RR. I'm doing things with GT5 I have never been able to do before. My inputs on the steering, throttle, and brakes are eerily similar to what they'd be in my own car while driving fast on a country road if I'm in a similar car type in GT5.

It's like a whole new game- or sim., in fact I think it's closer to a sim now, and it's way better and more realistic than before.

 

[Jarmo]

I didn't drive the LF-A a whole lot before the update but I tried it yesterday. It kinda felt like the car was in a small constant slide when I was cornering. The slides were easy to correct thouhg.

Has this always been the nature of the car?

 

[jjaisli]

You can ''throw'' a car into a turn now, without race tires, just like IRL.. and you can ''catch'' a car with a well timed flick of the wheel, just like in RR. I'm doing things with GT5 I have never been able to do before. My inputs on the steering, throttle, and brakes are eerily similar to what they'd be in my own car while driving fast on a country road if I'm in a similar car type in GT5.

It's like a whole new game- or sim., in fact I think it's closer to a sim now, and it's way better and more realistic than before.

I think ^ that statement is very telling. And from it, and a few hours of testing, I'm drawing exactly the opposite conclusion. There's a HUGE difference between driving down an empty country road with a bit of gusto and taking a car on a race track, lap after lap and really pushing and giving maximum effort. Everybody is gushing over the physics tweaks and I really wonder why. I'm certainly not. There have been some improvements in the amount of body roll and initial turn in and grip. But certain key elements haven't changed. GT5 has always had some quirky behavior at the limit of adhesion. Well, it had some quirks at very low speeds too, but I won't get into that now. But for me, it's suddenly become much easier to drive. Certainly easier than it should be. And that's not necessarily a good thing.

You can attack curbs, get the car heaving and weaving on it's suspension and oddly enough, it generally remains composed. And if the car get's out of line, with some quick reflexes and a quick flick of the wheel, you can immediately get it back under control. Real hero stuff. That's not how it works in real life. In real life, there's a period where the tires fight friction and regain rolling momentum as the car regains positive forward motion. And getting it back under control requires much more finesse. During that period the car is on a knife's edge, where coming off the throttle, touching the brake, turning the wheel, all have very clear consequences which affect the balance of the car, while in GT regaining control is just about quick reflexes and a lot of that subtly is simply missing.

And this behavior does NOT make it 'closer to a sim'. If anything, it now makes it more arcade like. If most of us could drive a real car on a real track like we now can in GT5, we'd be vying for a spot on the grid next to Vettel.

The basic problem with any console or PC based driving game, is that many of the key elements of stimuli from driving a real car, especially under extreme conditions of friction, grip, slip angle, etc, are simply missing. When you're in a real car, you can feel the centrifugal forces on your body as you navigate a curve, you can feel the car lunge and slip under braking, you can feel the front tires bite and fight and lose grip as the car understeers, you sense immediately in your inner ear when the rear end starts to rotate, you can tell if you're giving too much throttle or opposite lock through the seat of your pants. And when that happens, you react to it. And this is why some PC based sims can actually seem more difficult to drive than the cars they're emulating in real life. Because sitting in front of TV, you're lacking all of that additional stimuli and you have to react to the car's behavior at a point when it's probably already too late, unless you learn to anticipate it, a unique skill in sim racing, in and of itself.

The updates to GT5 have made it enjoyable, probably more enjoyable than it was. But I haven't seen or felt anything to make me believe it's now any more realistic. Especially not at the limits of grip and adhesion. If you want to play a fun, generally realistic feeling driving game with the best visuals anywhere and arguably the best physics engine in the console world, play GT5. If you want a true simulation experience, you'll have to look elsewhere. The spec 2.0 update hasn't changed that.

 

[BWX]

I think ^ that statement is very telling. And from it, and a few hours of testing, I'm drawing exactly the opposite conclusion. There's a HUGE difference between driving down an empty country road with a bit of gusto and taking a car on a race track, lap after lap and really pushing and giving maximum effort. Everybody is gushing over the physics tweaks and I really wonder why. I'm certainly not. There have been some improvements in the amount of body roll and initial turn in and grip. But certain key elements haven't changed. GT5 has always had some quirky behavior at the limit of adhesion. Well, it had some quirks at very low speeds too, but I won't get into that now. But for me, it's suddenly become much easier to drive. Certainly easier than it should be. And that's not necessarily a good thing.

You can attack curbs, get the car heaving and weaving on it's suspension and oddly enough, it generally remains composed. And if the car get's out of line, with some quick reflexes and a quick flick of the wheel, you can immediately get it back under control. Real hero stuff. That's not how it works in real life. In real life, there's a period where the tires fight friction and regain rolling momentum as the car regains positive forward motion. And getting it back under control requires much more finesse. During that period the car is on a knife's edge, where coming off the throttle, touching the brake, turning the wheel, all have very clear consequences which affect the balance of the car, while in GT regaining control is just about quick reflexes and a lot of that subtly is simply missing.

And this behavior does NOT make it 'closer to a sim'. If anything, it now makes it more arcade like. If most of us could drive a real car on a real track like we now can in GT5, we'd be vying for a spot on the grid next to Vettel.

The basic problem with any console or PC based driving game, is that many of the key elements of stimuli from driving a real car, especially under extreme conditions of friction, grip, slip angle, etc, are simply missing. When you're in a real car, you can feel the centrifugal forces on your body as you navigate a curve, you can feel the car lunge and slip under braking, you can feel the front tires bite and fight and lose grip as the car understeers, you sense immediately in your inner ear when the rear end starts to rotate, you can tell if you're giving too much throttle or opposite lock through the seat of your pants. And when that happens, you react to it. And this is why some PC based sims can actually seem more difficult to drive than the cars they're emulating in real life. Because sitting in front of TV, you're lacking all of that additional stimuli and you have to react to the car's behavior at a point when it's probably already too late, unless you learn to anticipate it, a unique skill in sim racing, in and of itself.

The updates to GT5 have made it enjoyable, probably more enjoyable than it was. But I haven't seen or felt anything to make me believe it's now any more realistic. Especially not at the limits of grip and adhesion. If you want to play a fun, generally realistic feeling driving game with the best visuals anywhere and arguably the best physics engine in the console world, play GT5. If you want a true simulation experience, you'll have to look elsewhere. The spec 2.0 update hasn't changed that.

Well most of that whole spiel is all nothing but your opinion, and that doesn't make you right or correct as you know.

Most of the time driving down a county road, the fear of DEATH keeps you from throwing your car around anyway, but that doesn't mean you never do it. I know that on snow with my traction control turned off I can throw my car into a slide and catch it easily.

You seem to be one of the hold-outs that thinks it's only a "simulation" if it's impossible to drive and only a ''simulation'' if your car is constantly trying to KILL YOU.

Well in real life cars aren't always sliding off the road trying actively to kill their drivers. My favorite sim of all time is Richard Burns Rally. People always say it's so hard to drive, etc. I thought RBR was easy to drive because it felt realistic TO ME.

Unless you have some kind of top secret tire model data saying that GT5's physics are all wrong then you can't say it's less realistic or more realistic.

I don't claim to know either, but I do know that it feels more realistic than it did before, and that most people are in agreement with that. It certainly feels more real to me than LFS, rFactor, GTR, or a whole host of other so-called sims that feel like you're constantly driving on a thin layer of grease even when it's supposedly dry pavement, LFS is the worst when it comes to that.

 

[Astro_BS-AS]

If you want a true simulation experience, you'll have to look elsewhere. The spec 2.0 update hasn't changed that.

I don´t agree. AT ALL.

Are you playing with a wheel? Wich car do you drive in the real world?

I feel a much better driving experience overall, after 2.0 patch. And not particulary "easy" to drive, but with more "feel" at the wheel.

Go and try to drift now... not easy at all, and inmensely more balanced.

The statement "If you play a real sim...etc etc." is getting quite old by now...

I don´t mean to "offend" you in any way by saying that, btw.

 

[shirakawaa]

I can say that in my experience this still isn't simulated in GT5:

In real life, under high transverse loads and body roll angles, tires (especially with high-profile and narrow ones) don't just slide but begin to hop due to the fact that we're use their sidewalls, and start acting as a wedge (progressively more as load and body roll increase, or more in general as camber becomes positive relatively to the road) which can lead to a temporary lift of tires on the opposite side of the car, or worse a roll over.

 

[Jarmo]

I can say that in my experience this still isn't simulated in GT5:

In real life, under high transverse loads and body roll angles, tires (especially with high-profile and narrow ones) don't just slide but begin to hop due to the fact that we're use their sidewalls, and start acting as a wedge (progressively more as load and body roll increase, or more in general as camber becomes positive relatively to the road) which can lead to a temporary lift of tires on the opposite side of the car, or worse a roll over.

I've indeed had cars hop in corners but I think that was more due to hard suspension and bumpy road. Not sure though.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

On a gamepad, I cannot really feel any difference...the cars seem to dive a bit more under braking though.

 

[jjaisli]

I don´t agree. AT ALL.

Are you playing with a wheel? Wich car do you drive in the real world?

I feel a much better driving experience overall, after 2.0 patch. And not particulary "easy" to drive, but with more "feel" at the wheel.

Go and try to drift now... not easy at all, and inmensely more balanced.

The statement "If you play a real sim...etc etc." is getting quite old by now...

I don´t mean to "offend" you in any way by saying that, btw.

I'm not offended. And everybody is entitled to their opinion. I'm using a G27. I've never driven with the pad. Which car do I drive in the real world? I don't see how this matters but right now I'm driving a Mazdaspeed 3. FWD, 265-bhp. It's fun but it understeers like a pig. I'm 40 years old. I've been driving for 23 years. And I've driven many cars. And I'm lucky enough to have driven everything from a 1960s Fiat Cinquecento to a Ferrari 250 GT SWB. But more importantly, I've had the opportunity to drive a few cars on a closed race track. I'm not a professional. And I'm far from the fastest guy out there. But I like to think I have some idea what it means to drive fast and consistently.

The statement, "Play a real sim" is old but true. Look, nobody here really knows with any degree of certainty, precisely how accurate GT5 is or isn't. The PS3 is a closed system and we don't really know what criteria PD has in programed into their physics engine or doesn't. But I can tell you, you can get away with things in GT5 that should be upsetting the balance and momentum of the car and it doesn't. You can push in certain ways in GT5 and it's faster to go through turns by riding, even exceeding the limit of grip that it is to stay just below that threshold. A basic knowledge of physics in the real world tells us this is wrong. So even though we can't see into the inner workings of what PD is doing, we can tell there are certain things that don't add up. You shouldn't take umbrage if somebody claims GT5 isn't a 'real' sim. It isn't. And it was never intended to be. That doesn't mean it isn't a great and fun racing game. Although, many on this site would probably argue with that statement as well.

 

[shirakawaa]

I've indeed had cars hop in corners but I think that was more due to hard suspension and bumpy road. Not sure though.

I'm not referring to suspensions bouncing because of their stiffness.
The shortcoming I described is the main reason why handbrake maneuvers or sudden high speed slides in GT5 are so safe, while in real life they aren't to be taken or performed lightly.

 

[Mikesima]

I play with a controller (my wheel's in another country) and the difference in physics are plainly obvious.

People that don't feel it probably never played the game much in the first place. There is definitely a difference in the way the skids are handled especially.

.....now whether its more "SIM" or not. I'll let the pro's argue it out, but i like it.

 

[chuyler1]

I spent some more time last night...but all in 345pp street cars on comfort medium tires (preparing for the next Lemons racing season). All cars were stock except maybe one or two performance parts added to get them right to 345. All driving was done on Grand Valley East Reverse. It basically has 3 brake zones and is easy to master with these cars.

What I have found is that there seems to be less auditory feedback as to when the limit has been reached. Almost every RWD car I drove would snap out mid corner between turns 1 and 2 and every FWD car would change suddenly understeer mid corner. The problem I see is in the tire model, not the suspension.

If you were on a skid pad IRL and found the limit of your car, you can generally hold it there for an extended period of time. In this game, you can only hold a corner speed for a finite amount of time before the tires change temperature and you have to correct and fix it. To adjust for it, you have to drive under the limit for the beginning of the turn so you don't spend too much time at the limit during a turn.

I am also finding that I can't trail brake as effectively anymore. I race with abs=1 and usually trail into every corner to make sure I get the right speed at the apex. With the new physics it seems like any sort of braking and turning leads to understeer. I have adjusted my line in several places so I brake with 100% force earlier and then just coast around the turn with no brake.

 

[jjaisli]

Most of the time driving down a county road, the fear of DEATH keeps you from throwing your car around anyway, but that doesn't mean you never do it. I know that on snow with my traction control turned off I can throw my car into a slide and catch it easily.

Most of the time, fear of DEATH keeps you from throwing your car around at ANY time in the real world, INCLUDING on a closed track. Driving around on a snowy road in winter at relatively low speeds, it's generally pretty easy to catch a well balanced car with snow tires. Catching a slide on dry pavement with semi-slick tires at 180-kmh around a high speed sweeper is something entirely different.

You seem to be one of the hold-outs that thinks it's only a "simulation" if it's impossible to drive and only a ''simulation'' if your car is constantly trying to KILL YOU.

No, I don't either. But I don't think you completely understood what I was trying to say.

I'm not referring to suspensions bouncing because of their stiffness.
The shortcoming I described is the main reason why handbrake maneuvers or sudden high speed slides in GT5 are so safe, while in real life they aren't to be taken or performed lightly.

Yes.

The problem I see is in the tire model, not the suspension.

And yes.

But the tire model isn't the only problem as I see it.

 

[Astro_BS-AS]

I'm not offended. And everybody is entitled to their opinion. I'm using a G27. I've never driven with the pad. Which car do I drive in the real world? I don't see how this matters but right now I'm driving a Mazdaspeed 3. FWD, 265-bhp. It's fun but it understeers like a pig. I'm 40 years old. I've been driving for 23 years. And I've driven many cars. And I'm lucky enough to have driven everything from a 1960s Fiat Cinquecento to a Ferrari 250 GT SWB. But more importantly, I've had the opportunity to drive a few cars on a closed race track. I'm not a professional. And I'm far from the fastest guy out there. But I like to think I have some idea what it means to drive fast and consistently.

The statement, "Play a real sim" is old but true. Look, nobody here really knows with any degree of certainty, precisely how accurate GT5 is or isn't. The PS3 is a closed system and we don't really know what criteria PD has in programed into their physics engine or doesn't. But I can tell you, you can get away with things in GT5 that should be upsetting the balance and momentum of the car and it doesn't. You can push in certain ways in GT5 and it's faster to go through turns by riding, even exceeding the limit of grip that it is to stay just below that threshold. A basic knowledge of physics in the real world tells us this is wrong. So even though we can't see into the inner workings of what PD is doing, we can tell there are certain things that don't add up. You shouldn't take umbrage if somebody claims GT5 isn't a 'real' sim. It isn't. And it was never intended to be. That doesn't mean it isn't a great and fun racing game. Although, many on this site would probably argue with that statement as well.

Thanks for the answer !

That´s how things should "be" in a forum.

Well, I´ve asked you wich car you drive, because it has a lot to tell about "how you compare things". Saying your age (I´m 32) adds more to the experience.

I drive a VW Jetta 1.8T with 220 hp, and it undesteer too. But the balance that it has is quite similar to the "VR6" wich GT5 has as an Standar car.

That´s why I was asking Again, thanks.

And to what Akira adds, it´s true. He´s saying that since the beggining of the forum, and IRL he´s right. But but the manner in wich cars "flow" in GT5, is quite different to any other "so-called-sim". Does FM4 replicate that suspension behavior, btw?

Among other things, GT5 lacks fluid calculations, because of raw horsepower purely, and that why some things (as aerodinamic drag) are not 100% simulated, but based on "pre defined sheets" (to say it someway).

 

[Jarmo]

I'm not referring to suspensions bouncing because of their stiffness.
The shortcoming I described is the main reason why handbrake maneuvers or sudden high speed slides in GT5 are so safe, while in real life they aren't to be taken or performed lightly.

You are right. In real life when I drive hard into a corner with a Peugeot 206 the wheels will start to bounce with the tires fighting for grip. In gt5 it just results in a clean slide.

 

[diegorborges]

I play with DS3 and the feeling is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT NOW! o.O

I wonder how much its affected for wheel users...

It's a lot more natural now, you have much more feedback from the car... the body roll, suspension travel and how the suspension work in general... tire grip... a LOT have changed...

Last night I tried the TVR Speed Twelve and it was AMAZING... it behave exactly how you can see on videos around... its a riot, a beast... its hard to control, it wants to kill you... the wheelspin is not constant, its varies according with the tire temp or something like that.

It's hard to explain, but the physics are fantastic... much more real, much more natural... that's the word: natural, even using a DS3, the inputs I have to make are similar to what I do in a real car, like said before, its easier to correct a mistake, again... naturally... and please don't come with the thing that you can't feel it right without a wheel... I agree that the feeling is smaller, but its there...

But I have to agree with Shirakawa Akira posts that we should be able to rollover the car easily.

*** maybe I overdid my post... I'm thrilled, sorry... I've had a blast on GT5 last night together with friends. You guys know how it is.

 

[chriz00]

Don't know if this has been discussed but, have they fixed the way ABS performs?

Before Spec 2.0, I would gradually brake (in a straight line, before going into a corner) & you could feel the vehicle losing traction early in the braking process and it would be a tad difficult to bring back some traction, because the car is sliding.

After Spec 2.0, I would do the same (brake in a straight line) & the vehicle loses traction at a later point but I am able to relieve pressure, to bring back some traction, then brake again & make the turn correctly.


...or maybe it's just me. lol

 

[chuyler1]

In the rain with abs=1 at le sarthe, my car acted as though the tires were completely locked up. I could not turn and brake at the same time. I tried pumping the brakes but after several trips to the sand traps I ended up just braking super early and coasting around the turns like I was on a sunday cruise. Dry behavior seems Ok, but I haven't logged enough hours to figure out what is going on yet.

 

[Tenacious D]

The updates to GT5 have made it enjoyable, probably more enjoyable than it was. But I haven't seen or felt anything to make me believe it's now any more realistic. Especially not at the limits of grip and adhesion. If you want to play a fun, generally realistic feeling driving game with the best visuals anywhere and arguably the best physics engine in the console world, play GT5. If you want a true simulation experience, you'll have to look elsewhere. The spec 2.0 update hasn't changed that.

Warning: typically long post coming.

I find this interesting in light of the fact that you enjoyed Ferrari Challenge so much. In that game, it felt, looked and even sounded at times as if Eutechnyx had ported over Forza 2 and tweaked the physics engine. And then that Turn 10 had bought this work and massaged it a bit themselves to use as the basis for Forza 3! And it doesn't help a bit that the livery editor and many vinyls are the exact same as in Forza. Wouldn't that be scandalous if true! Maybe you remember some of my remarks over at the Eutechnyx boards.

I had been racing in Forza 2 for about 11 months, so it wasn't any kind of eye opening experience jumping into FC and taking that F430 around the track. Of course, jumping into such a high performance car meant that it was a handful, and I had to school myself on what the game engine demanded of me specifically, but the feel was remarkably similar to the Forza I'd just left.

At first I was enjoying the heck out of it, until I had to race ever more powerful Ferraris in the rain, and the bots kept bashing me off the track, again very much like Forza's bots behave. I finally got fed up with it and quit.

At this point, hungrier for something more advanced and lifelike than GT4, I bought a handful of PC racing sims, went back to the GTRs, bought rFactor and downloaded the Live For Speed demo again, but this time equipped with a G25. Woah, what nice feel. I have to quibble over rFactor a bit. Not only does the fantasy car feel like it's on a spindle with the world rotating beneath it, but it has the worst user interface of any game I ever saw! GTR and LFS were far better, although LFS's tire model is a work in progress, and when they fix something, they seem to break something else, and the last update I used, the tires literally became butter when wear reached a certain point. The problem though is that PC sims feel... boring. I never seem to like the choices of cars and liveries offered to me, and of course the graphics are like something PS2 in HD. I saved very few replays because they were... boring.

So about that time, Prologue came out. And... you may disagree, but it felt remarkably like my PC sims. The world was in living color! There were cars I wanted to race in! Replays looked amazingly real! NOTHING was boring, and it was even better with Spec II. Then the Time Trial demo came out, and it was amazing, how much more subtle differences felt compared to Prologue. It felt even more like Live For Speed, but to me, better in certain ways. Sure, LFS is a bit closer to real world car physics, but... who cares! Man, was I aching for GT5.

I had to settle for Forza 3. And at first it was fun - and I did have to get dialed in with the slower cars first, but then the file bogging and photo sharing system bit me hard, and after a few weeks, I couldn't stand the ordeal and quit. I went back to my PC sims at first, which felt remarkable, far better than Forza, but they quickly bored me so I went back to Prologue and even GT4, for the wealth of events and cars to race. And Prologue was just too similar to make me want to mess with the sims. When GT5 came out, I had even less desire to peek at rFactor 2, and forget iRacing, a game you have to rent forever.

I think the issue is that everyone drives, and races, differently. You are going to attack a corner differently than I will, which is likely going to be reflected in my T times. But I digress. Because of this, I think this is the root of the problem with most of the differences in our experiences here at GT Planet. It seems that more than half the people here with driving and racing experience really dig the physics, especially after Spec II, but the rest think they're similar, or even worse. Even so, many of those think GT5 is a nice try, simmish enough to have a blast with. Being GT fans, most likely they're tuned into the rhythm of GT's physics and car dynamics. If you're a fan of other games, it seems you're cued into those games' flavor of car behavior.

Still, there are a bunch who find a close similarity to both PC sims and real life racing in GT5. All the picky points everyone brings up are legitimate fodder to discuss shortcomings of GT5's physics engine, but I have to mention that I find most of them lacking in my sims too. And I have to say that I can grab a car and go in Gran Turismo games, much as I can in my PC sims and to an extent in Toca, which I can't in Forza and Ferrari Challenge.

This is a fascinating debate which won't have any real resolution, but the different points of issue fairly discussed make for great reading, and will hopefully inspire Kaz and the team to make GT6 even better.

 

[Catlin]

^^^ That was a nice read

just saying.

 

[NLxAROSA]

I think the issue is that everyone drives, and races, differently. You are going to attack a corner differently than I will, which is likely going to be reflected in my T times. But I digress. Because of this, I think this is the root of the problem with most of the differences in our experiences here at GT Planet. It seems that more than half the people here with driving and racing experience really dig the physics, especially after Spec II, but the rest think they're similar, or even worse.

I for one am of the first half. I was ready to give up on GT before the Spec 2.0 update, because the driving felt boring. And now, I've been playing every evening since Spec 2.0 came out, both offline and online, and in all types of cars. And that says a lot (to me anyway).

To me, the difference between before- and after-Spec 2.0 is like night and day. It's not as apparent on all cars/tyre combinations, but taking a car like the LFA to the Nordschleife or another track with nice bumps and height differences (corkscrew on Laguna Seca) makes me smile, lap after lap after lap. It reminds me a lot of playing PC sims (though granted, it's not quite there yet on all areas). And I know that definitely wasn't the case before Spec 2.0 (I specifically took some time in the week before release to run certain car/track combos so I could compare before/after).

 

[Tenacious D]

I'm amazed that some people didn't like the LFA! Sure, it's a handful, but supercars often are. I love the thing, but have yet to take it for a spin after the update.

I think one of the cool things of Spec II is the fact that every car wasn't improved exactly the same, which you might see in other games. Some sports cars are very different. Most high performance cars are very different, and were before the update. Unfortunately I don't have the time to test every combo of car, track and tire, but I'm impressed by those that do, and document their impressions here. I have to grant the sim guys their purism, but... GT5 is really, really close, more so than any game save perhaps Race Pro, produced by SIMBIN, a sim developer.

Perhaps it's not a night and day difference for everyone, but for most of us, there are amazing gems to discover when we go exploring. And... I have to get out my shovel right soon!

 

[jjaisli]

Warning: typically long post coming.

I want to say off the bat, that I actually agree with much of what you say. But I want to clarify a few things.

I find this interesting in light of the fact that you enjoyed Ferrari Challenge so much. In that game, it felt, looked and even sounded at times as if Eutechnyx had ported over Forza 2 and tweaked the physics engine....At first I was enjoying the heck out of it, until I had to race ever more powerful Ferraris in the rain, and the bots kept bashing me off the track, again very much like Forza's bots behave. I finally got fed up with it and quit.

I seem to remember you jumped ship from Ferrari Challenge because you weren't happy about the field of view, but whatever. I never played Forza II but you're the only one I know who's ever made, and continues to draw analogies between Forza II and FC. But one important distinction I want to make. Ferrari Challenge was a very polarizing game. You either loved it or hated it and few took the middle ground. I was very enamored by FC's amazing and rich FFB. And I think that's the main feature that drew many GTPers to Ferrari Challenge, and it's successor, Supercar Challenge. The incredibly detailed, and arguably over boosted FFB gave you the ability to feel the front wheels fighting for grip in the way no other racing game I ever played, before or since, has been able to do. Especially driving the older cars in the game, there was such an intense feeling of fighting for balance through transitional moves as the weight transferred from side to side or front to back under braking. In that sense, Eutechnyx created a masterpiece. By giving that extra feedback, Ferrari Challenge allowed you to drive by the seat of your pants, something that's missing from nearly every other game. And that's the point I was making in my earlier post about the lack of outside stimuli. But I don't think I ever claimed that FC had a superior physics engine compared to GT5 Prologue. However, one could make the case that it had an arguably better physics engine than any other racing game on the PS3 at the time, and as such, among other reasons, it filled a vaccum.

At this point, hungrier for something more advanced and lifelike than GT4, I bought a handful of PC racing sims...the worst user interface of any game I ever saw! GTR and LFS were far better...The problem though is that PC sims feel... boring. I never seem to like the choices of cars and liveries offered to me, and of course the graphics are like something PS2 in HD. I saved very few replays because they were... boring.

I went a similar route and I spent many months exploring what was out there. PC sims are a double edged sword in so many ways. And yes, RFactor does have a horrible interface. But the problem with Rfactor, is once you start running different mods, you need to constantly tweak and adjust your settings and it was for me, a major hassle. I spent more time downloading patches, reading endless forum posts, making adjustments and testing and retesting than I ever did racing. And for every great mod, there seemed to be 4 that were horrendous.

To be blunt every PC sim I tried WAS serious. If you're playing PC sims, it's because you love actual wheel to wheel racing. And since I found I didn't care for many of the features in GT5, i.e. changing rims, photo mode, driving suits, B-spec, 'earning' credits, 'buying' cars, etc, I thought maybe it made more sense for me to go the PC direction. Although the real motivation was because I was becoming frustrated by GT5's flaws (sub-par tire model, different tire compounds that wore at the same rate, a ridiculously over-boosted slipstream effect, sub-par damage model, etc) And I wanted to explore what else was out there.

So about that time, Prologue came out. And... you may disagree, but it felt remarkably like my PC sims.

Here I do. One of my biggest issues with Prologue was how bland and stale the steering was. If you can honestly tell me, you can't tell the difference between the rich, lively, communicative FFB from GTR Evo and the stale, cold, lifeless FFB from Prologue, we're really speaking from opposite ends of the axis. To be fair, the cars in GTR were racing cars with very direct steering. Prologue was full of road cars with a lot of isolation. But it was more than that.

...and forget iRacing, a game you have to rent forever.

iRacing was the last PC sim I tried. Because, like you, I don't much care for the pay to play method. And if you really go and buy ALL the content, it can become quite pricey. That said, if you'll pardon the pun, iRacing for me was a game changer. I went exploring PC sims with an open mind. I tried to leave any preconceived notions and all the biases I constantly weeded through on Simbin based or RFactor based forums, behind me. I went in expecting it to be similar to GTR. And I found it to be superior in every way imaginable--from the community to the philosophy behind it, iRacing was a world apart from other PC sims. Is it perfect? No, far from it. And you can find flaws and faults with any game out there. But if you want pure wheel to wheel racing action, with other clean racers, in the most realistic, true to life way possible, it's the way to go. I just renewed my membership for a year. I have no regrets and for me, it's worth EVERY penny. I never thought I would say that when I signed up for the 3 month trial. But it didn't take long to become hooked.

It seems that more than half the people here with driving and racing experience really dig the physics, especially after Spec II, but the rest think they're similar, or even worse.

Come on, no need to go and ruin a good discussion with a bunch of phony stats you're pulling out of the air.

 

[another_jakhole]

I've indeed had cars hop in corners but I think that was more due to hard suspension and bumpy road. Not sure though.

And pushing the car to its limits. No one can really do that unless they have a lack of the emotion of fear, which some people really don't (edit - DO , DOOOOO, not don't, pshh idiot) have.

Oh yea, rollovers. That's probably what's doing it the most. The cars in GT5 aren't able to flip realistically at all for obvious reasons.

Come on, no need to go and ruin a good discussion with a bunch of phony stats you're pulling out of the air.

How is it not true? If they've been improved and a real majority say they have and you know they have (if you still play), then how is it not right? Also, it's not necessarily a statistic because it isn't final (boy does that sound douchebaggish of me). There's an unfinished poll which is good enough for a forum with as many people as it has and a whole thread about the specifics of Physics improvement. The stereotyping in this case is true, mostly.

You make good arguments, but extremely cocky . I don't mean to be offensive, I'm just kind of calling you out about that in the most honest way. Remember, arguments you do make good - yoda

:stupid face emoticon for me:

But I also just used a DS3 to race for the first time with a DS3 since Spec 2, and the feeling isn't there nearly as much as I get from the wheel. There should be more DS3 users than wheel, just as there should be negative votes made just for the hell of it from some people. I wouldn't blame them either, it's a sickness. A sickness I tell ya.

the drai-man

 

[Grandi]

Warning: typically long post coming.

That was a very good read, and I think I can relate to many of your feelings regarding sims / racing games. I can also relate to jjaisli's post about iRacing being a game changer on the PC market. I have a bunch of content (too much in comparison to my seat time) and really appreciate the thoroughness of their product. Yet, I feel drawn to GT5, now more so with the 2.0 update. The slipstream fix and replay controls alone make it very worth while, but the changes in the physics model really elevate the update. For the most part, suspension and tyre modeling + FFB have imo taken a decent step forward. Improvement in the sense of adhesion is actually the first thing that comes to mind.

Anyway, I went ahead and gave the F10 a go with spec 2.0:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BorKJ621coY

The point in this wasn't to go fast (hence, comfort medium), but to find some kind of "right" feel for the car. Some fundamental shortcomings still seem to exist... starting with the insane amount of aero that can be set up, and the fact that the influence of aero on drag is rather slim.
Relatively speaking, I think the road cars and even most LMPs of GT5 do a better job at simulation.

However, this didn't stop the car from being a fun and challenging piece of machinery to drive. The setup was kind of stiff, with some oversteer (and rear-biased tyre wear) and sent me to the wall in the first corner, degner and 130R a bunch of times. With a bit of practice though, it became a thrill to drive. At that point I didn't really care that I couldn't adjust the diff on the fly or make fine-tuned adjustments on a pit stop.

The point here - if there is any - is that, for me, GT5 is something I can really enjoy, even if I do have to overlook something and make a few adjustments. The core driving mechanics in addition to the selection of cars and venues are, while being far from perfect, solid. The best part is of course getting a bunch of good, clean racers to share those things with you online.