- 1,742
- Olympia, WA
- GTP_BrokenVow, zmikedz
GT5 Physics - Spec 2.0
- Thread starter CodeRedR51
- 479 comments
- 65,377 views
- 3,232
- Wales
Damn near impossible is over the top, they arent typically hard cars to drive, certaintly a lot harder than they are in GT5 though. Driving them fast enough to be competive is whats hard, except in GT5 where it's easy.
- 1,742
- Olympia, WA
- GTP_BrokenVow, zmikedz
- 3,232
- Wales
Richard Hammond is not a great driver! Was a massive debate on this in the F1 2011 thread. Most of the difficulty with driving an F1 car is having the confidence (balls?) to push it hard enough to allow the brakes and tyres to work, and having the strength and fitness to be able to take the beating.
Neither of which is a problem you would ever have to deal with in a simulation.
- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
This is a fascinating point, and a big reason why I dropped GTR 1 back in the day.
The only reason that a race car driver can take a real race car to the edge and be competitive, is because of the way the car and G forces communicate to them, and their experience in deciphering this language. This is a tough field, and why the winner's circle is only visited by a handful of racers who also happen for the most part to be repeat offenders.
A video game takes all that away from you. All we have are some visuals and some tire noise to go by. I know some of you insist that GT5 isn't nearly as good as any number of sims. But then the problem is that there is a lot of disagreement on what those "proper" sims are. The problem is that all games have to fudge something, or only a few thousand gamers will be able to race competitively, and just about everyone will hate them. And thus the arguments over who's "real enough" to be called a proper sim, because every game fudges a little differently. I dropped GTR 1 because the driver views stank, and the car just wouldn't talk to me. iRacing is generally held up as the pinnacle game, but not everyone agrees.
I am with you sim guys on this matter. I'd love for GT5 to be able to feel pretty darn close to iRacing, or a real life car, as much as a game can pull that emotion-driven feat off. But I harken back to my experience in taking a stock Beemer and modding it in the range of GT league race cars, as are found in games like GTR Evo and 2. And darn if it doesn't feel amazingly similar.
Maybe Kaz has a scheme to nudge GT5 - and GT6 - along until the game is pretty much in line with the racing sims when you start toning down the aids. Maybe he intends at some point to add a simulation mode in Gran Turismo complete with all the rules used in the various racing leagues. We can ask for this, and I have been. Care to join me?
- 3,232
- Wales
This is a fascinating point, and a big reason why I dropped GTR 1 back in the day.
The only reason that a race car driver can take a real race car to the edge and be competitive, is because of the way the car and G forces communicate to them, and their experience in deciphering this language. This is a tough field, and why the winner's circle is only visited by a handful of racers who also happen for the most part to be repeat offenders.
A video game takes all that away from you. All we have are some visuals and some tire noise to go by. I know some of you insist that GT5 isn't nearly as good as any number of sims. But then the problem is that there is a lot of disagreement on what those "proper" sims are. The problem is that all games have to fudge something, or only a few thousand gamers will be able to race competitively, and just about everyone will hate them. And thus the arguments over who's "real enough" to be called a proper sim, because every game fudges a little differently. I dropped GTR 1 because the driver views stank, and the car just wouldn't talk to me. iRacing is generally held up as the pinnacle game, but not everyone agrees.
I am with you sim guys on this matter. I'd love for GT5 to be able to feel pretty darn close to iRacing, or a real life car, as much as a game can pull that emotion-driven feat off. But I harken back to my experience in taking a stock Beemer and modding it in the range of GT league race cars, as are found in games like GTR Evo and 2. And darn if it doesn't feel amazingly similar.
Maybe Kaz has a scheme to nudge GT5 - and GT6 - along until the game is pretty much in line with the racing sims when you start toning down the aids. Maybe he intends at some point to add a simulation mode in Gran Turismo complete with all the rules used in the various racing leagues. We can ask for this, and I have been. Care to join me?
Interesting point, slightly off topic but your post reminds me of the LMP2 (acura) post on iRacing. A driver of the real world car came on to complain and explained how he had big issues with the car, he found it very difficult to drive compared to his real car. He even stressed that his real car felt like it had more stability and traction in the rain than the iRacing car had in the dry. There was also talk about how when he talked to his fellow race driver friends they found it strange how when they used iRacing they were 2 seconds slower than the "alien" sim racers on tracks that they had raced and won at in the real world.
However good sims get, it always falls down to them ultimately being games, and the league of pro gamers who practice playing the game to perfection will always beat real life drivers who have adapted and mastered driving in the real world. G forces, the feeling in the car, the fear you experience when driving and any innacuracies in the sims all add up to them ultimately being two completely different things.
That is my take on it anyway. Back on topic, I feel GT5 is a long way behind the top sims (iRacing, NetKar Pro) for racing cars and slick tyres, but even they are far far from perfect or complete. But for road cars I think GT5 physics are fantastic (atleast at making me believe them to feel close enough to a real car) and Kaz has done an amazing job, I just hope that in GT6 he can bring the physics up to that level accros the spectrum.
Some might disagree with me, many probably will. But thats how i feel about it.
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- 775
- England.
This video shows what i'd like to see in the next physics update.
I'm not a huge Forza fan. But it does get some things right.
I'm not a huge Forza fan. But it does get some things right.
- 5,351
- United States
- kudos00
hahaha that's awesome. The rollover.
The damage had the paint literally thrown off the car.
The damage had the paint literally thrown off the car.
Well i think every sim game as of now has a long road before them.
Iracing Netcar etc have more accuarate physics but still there is a place for upgrade so there are shortcomings, physics is not better thanks to better development team but because they focus on single cars.
I'm amazed that GT menages to get good physic model consedering it has almost 1000 cars...
As of GT physic I agree that low speed cars are fantastic to drive, but when you go over 250 physic model have some shortcomings.
I mean litelary it's more of arcade racer than a sim. Pure arcade racer for me is F1 cars. Physic model for them just don't work like real world. I've been playing F1 mod for rFactor and drving F1 is like hardest thing to do.
Not only you has to feel the car but you can't be slow. If you go in high speed turn without enough speed you will fly off straight.
As of whole simulation talk we can agree that word "simulation" is crucial.
No mather how technic will go in future it will always be simulation so there will be shortcomings smaller with every day but there will be at the end.
Grandi
Premium
- 269
- Helsinki
- GTP_Grandi / kakeskin
I'm gonna partially agree and disagree with you on this one. I think the road cars definitely represent the best part of the spectrum, but there are a gem or two in the racing car section as well. Of course, tyre selection needs to be appropriate, but another bigger issue for me is the default setup.
Practically all components of default setups in GT5's racing cars contribute to conservativity, stability and understeer. This is imo most apparent on toe/camber angles, the diff and aerodynamics. Ride height settings (okay, the front/rear order is somehow effed up), springs/dampers and anti-roll all show the same pattern. When setting up a, say 908, R10 TDI or Super GT GT-R, to speed by altering these settings, the car can be transformed into something a lot more like I'd see and feel in e.g. iRacing's C6R, Riley MkXX or ARX01.
The F10 is a chapter of its own (read earlier post), but it too can be made quite a lot better, although it definitely does not cross even near to the quality of the FW31 of iR. Another irritating point to me is the bonkers power output of some of the race cars, especially LMP's. Power limiting FTW then.
Now with the slipstream-altering part of the update, we can actually race these cars without the end-result looking like complete comedy. 👍
- 1,029
- Uruguay
I agree with this. Even with an excellent wheel, I'm simply unable to drive at the limit in any racing sim because I'm very much a "drive by feel" guy. When I'm performance driving (endurance race-karting, autocross and ice-racing), my motorsport cars feel exactly like extensions of my body. I know, before going into a turn, exactly how much lift-off oversteer to initiate; where my hands will need to be on the steering wheel, how far that rear is going to slide; how far to let the wheel self-countersteer (if any) before snatching it. I'm surprisingly good at - much much better than I had any reason to guess I would be when I started it 6 seasons ago or so. In any sim, no matter how good, so much of this is gone. I even have trouble launching properly sometimes. Threshold braking? Forget it, I have to use ABS. In the case of GT5, the situation is even worse than in many sims because of the lack of "lightening" in the steering wheel as the front wheels lose grip. (Note, I'm not sure all drivers drive by feel. I'm frequently surprised by drivers who spin their MR and RR cars over and over and over again at motorsports events. Talking to them, I'm pretty sure that they actually aren't feeling the same things I do when I drive. Maybe this kind of driver has an advantage in sim-land over those of who "feel" the car keenly, whereas we have advantages in real-world events.) I still love playing racing sims, but over the years I've had to come to the conclusion that I'll probably never be anything better than a "middle of the pack" sim racer, regardless of how good I've become in the real world.
But, back to the topic of how real the 2.0 physics feel. For those cars in which I can compare real-life equivalent experience, the road cars feel extremely, even startlingly realistic when on comfort or sports tires. The new feedback is less muted and communicates much better through the wheel what is happening to the car (more like GT4 IMHO). I like that the online and offline physics are closer together. I think the offline physics were convincing but just too "easy" before the update. After the update the offline physics are even more convincing, and they've added just enough more difficulty to make if feel more realistic and more challenging. Online physics also feel a bit better to me than before the update, but I'm not as sure about this one because unfortunately all the cars (specific cars and general type of cars) I know extremely well in real life totally fall-apart under the online physics model (see below).
(Note: However, even after the 2.0 update, this assessment falls apart when driving RR cars online. Something is wrong there, very wrong, and no amount of tuning I've done has enabled me to make it quite right. I've basically given up driving any of my favorite cars online, because universally they don't handle properly in that mode.)
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- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
The physics in GT5 definitely aren't perfect, as you can see if you run your car even at low speed like 25mph into a wall. If you do this in Live For Speed, you'll see some amazing body motion as the force reverberates through all four suspensions individually. This might be closely modeled in iRacing, but so far I haven't seen it in any videos of it.
Enough people like Grandi have commented that setting up your car has a lot to do with how it behaves, and how realistically, so I'm going to have to pour through the Settings boards and glean some wisdom from them. But even with stock cars on Sports or Comforts, as many have said, sports cars feel nicely authentic. Race cars are all over the map, but for now I'm happy with them because they aren't completely out the window wrong. As far as I can tell, anyhow, with my abundant non-experience with real world race cars.
With Kaz's real world experience in racing and ongoing consultation with pro racers, hopefully he and the physics team can cook up an update that will make us all cheer.
I just got done taking the LFA out for a spin in an Arcade Nurburgring race with ABS off and brake balance set low front and back, something that used to give me a challenging but manageable race prior to Spec II. I could not keep that car on the track at first, and braking was a spinfest! If you guys don't notice any difference in the new physics, I have to wonder what the heck you're doing. I have yet to explore online physics, as I'm afraid the differences from offline might still be too great, and I don't want to go ramming people around.
ABS is still a number of assists in one, like one or two ticks of stability management and skid recovery. Even at ABS 1, brakes still refuse to lock up. The LFA was now raceable and could be pushed aggressively, but even on Sports softs, the Nurb was a handful, and I just can't say no to squeezing a bit more speed out of the car in a turn. I left the track in a few turns rather than risk a spin.
I decided to take a test run on an empty Ring and did a time test on Sports softs again, with sunny weather and time of day transition at the default of 30. I turned everything off, set my brake balance the way I used to, and the car was almost as unstable as those in Forza - which I'm questioning how realistic they are, but that's another thread. Taking turns aggressively is a chore. You have to pay attention to what the car and tires are telling you every split second or you'll lose it, which I did several times through even modest turns. Turning on stability management was only slightly better. Racing at night was eerie! I have to applaud you guys who can handle this untamed beast with everything off, because it wants to go wild at any decent speed.
I tell you what, even in race cars, if you can't have any fun in this update, I don't know what to say. Spec II is just amazing, how much it has transformed GT5 in even the most subtle ways.
Enough people like Grandi have commented that setting up your car has a lot to do with how it behaves, and how realistically, so I'm going to have to pour through the Settings boards and glean some wisdom from them. But even with stock cars on Sports or Comforts, as many have said, sports cars feel nicely authentic. Race cars are all over the map, but for now I'm happy with them because they aren't completely out the window wrong. As far as I can tell, anyhow, with my abundant non-experience with real world race cars.
With Kaz's real world experience in racing and ongoing consultation with pro racers, hopefully he and the physics team can cook up an update that will make us all cheer.I just got done taking the LFA out for a spin in an Arcade Nurburgring race with ABS off and brake balance set low front and back, something that used to give me a challenging but manageable race prior to Spec II. I could not keep that car on the track at first, and braking was a spinfest! If you guys don't notice any difference in the new physics, I have to wonder what the heck you're doing. I have yet to explore online physics, as I'm afraid the differences from offline might still be too great, and I don't want to go ramming people around.
ABS is still a number of assists in one, like one or two ticks of stability management and skid recovery. Even at ABS 1, brakes still refuse to lock up. The LFA was now raceable and could be pushed aggressively, but even on Sports softs, the Nurb was a handful, and I just can't say no to squeezing a bit more speed out of the car in a turn. I left the track in a few turns rather than risk a spin.
I decided to take a test run on an empty Ring and did a time test on Sports softs again, with sunny weather and time of day transition at the default of 30. I turned everything off, set my brake balance the way I used to, and the car was almost as unstable as those in Forza - which I'm questioning how realistic they are, but that's another thread. Taking turns aggressively is a chore. You have to pay attention to what the car and tires are telling you every split second or you'll lose it, which I did several times through even modest turns. Turning on stability management was only slightly better. Racing at night was eerie! I have to applaud you guys who can handle this untamed beast with everything off, because it wants to go wild at any decent speed.
I tell you what, even in race cars, if you can't have any fun in this update, I don't know what to say. Spec II is just amazing, how much it has transformed GT5 in even the most subtle ways.
- 1,851
- GTP_karlos
Controller sensitivity has gone from 0 to 7 now...the update seems to give more understeer overall especially the faster cars (especially RWD).
I now spin easily if I push or go incredibly slowly due to caution, like I said in my topic...back to school for me.
I now spin easily if I push or go incredibly slowly due to caution, like I said in my topic...back to school for me.
- 4,455
- São Paulo / Bra
- diegorborges82
Controller sensitivity has gone from 0 to 7 now...the update seems to give more understeer overall especially the faster cars (especially RWD).
I now spin easily if I push or go incredibly slowly due to caution, like I said in my topic...back to school for me.
I think that this sense of understeer specially on RWD cars happens now because of how the suspension and the game itself handles the car weight... now you gotta really plan before you enter a corner, I found myself sometimes today having problems with bad-planned corner entries... Cars that usually had tendency to oversteer, if you make a completelly wrong corner entrance you'll encounter understeer because you handled the corner badly... miss the apex, etc...
Now, weight transfer seems to have gained a lot of importance. The way you brake before a corner is important too, because you can make the car unstable by shaking its center of gravity from side-to-side and front-to-back.
But in the same way that it's painfull when you do a bad corner, its marvelous how natural is to correct some mistakes, because like I said before, specially for those who drive in real life, its natural! And I love how it punishes you because of common mistakes in real life such as missing the braking point of a corner...
Thumbs up for PD team... I'm still amazed by 2.0 physics...
In real life I expect it would be a challenge to lock a road car's tires if they were wearing sticky tires like sports softs. Most road cars have more than enough braking power to lock the street biased tires. GT5 gets this pretty darn close to real. The braking on comfort softs is definitely better, but ABS still lets you get away with things you couldn't in real life. I have noticed that the cars respond much better to lift-throttle and trail braking into corners to help turn-in. Granted I have been mostly doing my hot lap comparison with stock Challenger SRT8 and Camaro SS with comfort softs, but it seems the most realistic.
- 3,232
- Wales
If you want the wheels to lighten when you lose grip, turn "ON" the power assisted steering. I recently did this as of the 2.0 patch and found it gave me way more feeling in the car, including the above sensation.
For most cars its more realistic too (since most cars have it in real life). Though it will make the wheel lighter in general, the weight of the wheel seems to vary greatly from car to car, the Formula GT feels heavy and violent, where as my Ferrari F40 feels light and smooth, on the wheel.
But then, the lighter the FFB the more detailed it seems to be, though when it gets too light you can lose the torque feeling of the tyres when you have grip, making it harder to judge.
For most cars its more realistic too (since most cars have it in real life). Though it will make the wheel lighter in general, the weight of the wheel seems to vary greatly from car to car, the Formula GT feels heavy and violent, where as my Ferrari F40 feels light and smooth, on the wheel.
But then, the lighter the FFB the more detailed it seems to be, though when it gets too light you can lose the torque feeling of the tyres when you have grip, making it harder to judge.
- 5,351
- United States
- kudos00
Definitely agree with all of that. The understeer I noticed to be a lot more obvious when trying to make unreasonable turns and then, correcting it really punishes you because you waste significantly more time than before Spec 2. If you try to rush it, as if entering a corner wrong was enough, wheel spin will catch up with you, loss of grip/spin out, cars behind you bump into your car and it's pointless to even go on. Discipline to stay consistent is needed more now.
It's just great how much more focus and determination you need to put in good laps. Minor adjustments are crucial now is what I'm trying to say. Long story short. You did a great job of explaining that issue.
Great. Didn't the wheel get stiffer when you turned Power Assisted steering ON before Spec 2? It felt like the opposite. If not, then coincidentally, it might have been that I was using the Evo X when I tried it out lol. I'm not positive what car I tested it with.
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- 5,351
- United States
- kudos00
That's what I was expecting so I was shocked when it was stiffer and that's why I must have been using the Evo X. I wonder if that'll ever get fixed, but thanks for the reply, I'll try it tonight.
Drifting should be a new experience, I would hope.
Drifting should be a new experience, I would hope.
- 2,492
- Upstate NY
- BWX232
''And you think that's correct? It isn't. In the real world, with racing slicks and a "real" brake pedal where you can really feel impending lockup, maybe. But perhaps you were just improving your times, lap over lap and assumed it was due to braking?''
I have more feel with my G25 Nixim modded brake pedal.
Correct? Maybe I was just more used to no ABS off line and now on-line is acting a lot more like offline where before 2.0 it didn't. Also mr FF would go light if I locked up the brakes which I didn't notice as much before. Correct or not has nothing to do with it really.
I have more feel with my G25 Nixim modded brake pedal.
Correct? Maybe I was just more used to no ABS off line and now on-line is acting a lot more like offline where before 2.0 it didn't. Also mr FF would go light if I locked up the brakes which I didn't notice as much before. Correct or not has nothing to do with it really.
- 1,851
- GTP_karlos
I'm 7 seconds slower in an FGT now than I was before the update, the understeer and general lack of steerig speed has really stunted me as a driver on here, further more I could only get a 1'37,099 before the update (nurb'ring GPF s2 tyres) now I can't get past 1'44
I don't know if this is relevant to driving physics but the AI drivers seem to spin out after leaving the track or making subtle contact a lot easier now.
Also, I'm really enjoying the enhancements to the physics with the MR2 (AW11) it feels a lot more like the real car. The brake also work without ABS now, no longer locking up under the very slightest of pressure.
Also, I'm really enjoying the enhancements to the physics with the MR2 (AW11) it feels a lot more like the real car. The brake also work without ABS now, no longer locking up under the very slightest of pressure.
- 1,029
- Uruguay
I'm sure it's been mentioned before, but they've changed the Kart braking physics completely with the Spec 2.0 release. Personally I much preferred them they way they were before. Now Karts are absurdly easy to drive, not a challenge at all. For those who haven't driven racing Karts, many of them have brakes only on the rear wheels. If you brake incorrectly without being *very* good, you will spin the cart instantly. I'm not talking about over several seconds, I'm talking an instant uncontrollable spin. You have to really understand Kart braking. This is the way Karts were before the 2.0 update. Now, however, you can brake in Karts anywhere and anyhow you wish and they are completely controllable and steady.
I'm very disappointed with that change, it's removed most of the realism, all of the challenge, and all of the fun from driving Karts in GT5. I'll never touch the Karts again. I think it also shows very clearly how much PD cares about the GT series remaining a "sim". Bad, bad PD!!
I'm very disappointed with that change, it's removed most of the realism, all of the challenge, and all of the fun from driving Karts in GT5. I'll never touch the Karts again. I think it also shows very clearly how much PD cares about the GT series remaining a "sim". Bad, bad PD!!
- 114
- São Paulo
- intro83
If they changed something I believe that they know what they're doing.
I drove the new Karts and they seemed just like they were before. no change whatsoever.
I drove the new Karts and they seemed just like they were before. no change whatsoever.
- 2,492
- Upstate NY
- BWX232
I raced karts for a while last night- I see what you mean, but after a while I got used to it and if you are pushing hard and press brakes too hard or long you'll still spin easily. I was having a lot of fun w/ them actually and won a couple races on-line.
My FF was at 8 (no power steering), and that was too much on my G25.. turned it down to 5 and have yet to try them again.
My FF was at 8 (no power steering), and that was too much on my G25.. turned it down to 5 and have yet to try them again.
- 2,095
- Burke, Fairfax,
- GTP_STRIKER
- Xbox SUCKS
I agree with you Turbo, Im really enjoying the changes. I find the cars are more predicable in some situations. I also like that I dont have to go so extreme on some of my suspension setups and the cars are a lot better stock. No reason to tune out your race cars anymore.
CodeRedR51
Premium
- 55,282
- United States
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