GT5 tires vs. real life?

[calan_svc]

So if the CSL had the same weight, and weight distribution as the F430, theye would have different tyres in game.. But as they don't have the same weight distribution they run the same tyres in game to simulate reality as close as possible..

Ahhh... I see our disconnect now.

GT5 is doing some weird stuff with the tire and suspension models. You can't use logic like yours (as good as it is) to decide which tires should go on each car.

The tire "type" in GT5 means nothing; they are simply grip multipliers with some easy to manage names attached to them (apparently). If you want to match reality as closely as possible, you need to match the game car to IRL performance numbers, regardless of which tire it takes to get there.

If weight and tire size mattered, there is no way that a Mini Cooper could corner as well as a ZR-1 on the same tires...but they do in the game.

 

[Denilson]

"The tire "type" in GT5 means nothing; they are simply grip multipliers with some easy to manage names attached to them (apparently). If you want to match reality as closely as possible, you need to match the game car to IRL performance numbers, regardless of which tire it takes to get there."

Yes, exactly

 

[Denilson]

I would like to add one more thing..

Many performance cars uses about the same tyre size.. between 265-295's I'd say.. For those cars the system works pretty well.. But as you stated about the Cooper and ZR-1 (not carrying a tyre size between 265-295's) the system does not work..

And then you (general term ) have to calculate with cars that uses different tyre size in front and rear to make it even more complicated..

 

[calan_svc]

Yes, exactly

Ehhh... ok. LOL

So F430 = SH, CSL = SM (or maybe SS). 👍

I would like to add one more thing..

Many performance cars uses about the same tyre size.. between 265-295's I'd say.. For those cars the system works pretty well.. But as you stated about the Cooper and ZR-1 (not carrying a tyre size between 265-295's) the system does not work..

And then you (general term ) have to calculate with cars that uses different tyre size in front and rear to make it even more complicated..

That's why I attempted to simplify it down to an objective chart based on real-world lateral grip...GT5's physics model is not nearly that complicated when it comes to calculating grip. They've obviously made a lot of compromises to make things work as well as they do.

It ain't perfect but it seems to work.

 

[Denilson]

"So F430 = SH, CSL = SM (or maybe SS)."

What I'm trying to say is that I use SH for both cars, since the F430 rolls on wider tyres IRL than the CSL.. If theye had the same tyre size IRL I'd go for the SM for the CSL.. SS is waaay to grippy in my book..

Man, this is a great discussion 👍

 

[calan_svc]

What I'm trying to say is that I use SH for both cars, since the F430 rolls on wider tyres IRL than the CSL.. If theye had the same tyre size IRL I'd go for the SM..

Ok man... whatever works for ya.

 

[Denilson]

It does'nt matter if I use RS's or CH's as long as it simulates reality in a good way..

 

[Denilson]

Sorry.. i edited my post.. after you read it I guess

What I'm trying to say is that I use SH for both cars, since the F430 rolls on wider tyres IRL than the CSL.. If theye had the same tyre size IRL I'd go for the SM for the CSL..

 

[Denilson]

"That's why I attempted to simplify it down to an objective chart based on real-world lateral grip...GT5's physics model is not nearly that complicated when it comes to calculating grip. They've obviously made a lot of compromises to make things work as well as they do.

It ain't perfect but it seems to work."

👍

 

[Denilson]

Well, I'm not saying that your conclusion is bad, it's great if you ask me.. 👍

I'm just trying to look at it (In this thread) thru a less complicated wiev. Cause it feels kind of complicated to compare to real tests to shoose a tyre in GT5 for the average gamer..

 

[calan_svc]

It does'nt matter if I use RS's or CH's as long as it simulates reality in a good way..

What you consider "reality" is your subjective opinion. What I'm offering is the only objective way (that I know of) to measure true grip in the game.

IMO, GT5 does not consider tire width in calculating grip (based on the evidence I've seen with repeated testing; see the first paragraph of post #19 and post #48). Therefore, your "since the F430 rolls on wider tyres IRL than the CSL" logic doesn't hold.

Based on GT5's built-in lateral grip meter and datalogger, if you put the same tires on the CSL as the F430, they will both have the same amount grip, or damn close to it. Since the cars don't have the same grip in real life (as far as I can tell), you CAN'T put the same tires on them in GT5 and expect to get IRL grip.

BTW -

They'll still handle differently regardless of the tires, because they have different suspension models in the game. The suspension obviously affects handling to a large degree due to the dynamic weight transfer that takes place when changing directions. But on the skidpad, tire grip is king and the suspension isn't nearly as much of a factor once the car reaches equilibrium (at least in the game). So if a car doesn't feel right on a track, it could be (and probably is) due to inconsistencies in the car's suspension model assuming you have the right amount of grip; and you're probably masking it with putting on what you feel to be a more "realistic" tire.

Just my .02 of course... it's still just a game.

 

[Denilson]

I guess my english needs to be improved

Ok...

IRL the F430 and the CSL pull similar laptimes around Nurburgring (F430 - 7:55, CSL - 7:50). The CSL rolls on Michelin Pilot Sport Cup (a semi slick road legal tyre) and the F430 uses Pirelli PZero (a high end comfort tyre similar to Michelin Pilot Sport II).

When I drive at the Nurburgring in-game, I need to use SH on both cars to keep the laptimes around the real life laptimes, and also keep the difference between the cars around 5 seconds.

BMW - Michelin Pilot Sport Cup: 235/35-19 in front and 265/30-19 rear.
Ferrari - Pirelli PZero: 225/35-19 in front and 285/35-19 rear.

The Ferrari has more rubber on the ground and a better weight distribution in relation to where the rubber is placed (in the rear for the Ferrari).. CSL is 50/50, but has smaller tyres in the front compared to the rear (many CSL owners that use their car for track-days runs 265's in the front, making the car handle much better). The F430 on the other hand has a weight distribution of 43/57, making 57% of the weight resting on the 285 wide tyres. Compared to the CSL's 50% on the thin 235's..

The CSL's weight is 1385kg, and the F430 is 1450kg. Keep in mind that the Ferrari can take 35 litres more fuel.. So the weight difference is pretty small.. But the HP is not.. Howcome I do similar laptimes?

Ferrari: 0,33 hp/kg
BMW: 0,26 hp/kg

Howcome the CSL is faster with much less HP/kg, worse weightdistribution (latteral g-force wise ) and the same tyres (SH)

Therefore the latteral IRL grip would be similar (0.94?). Therefore they need to use the same tyre in-game even tough the reality is different.. If I used SS on the CSL, it would be waaaaaaay to quick..

Hope you get my point

I'm not saying that your thread is bad, it's a great piece of work 👍
But as long as you can't find the latteral g-force for the CSL it's really hard to make a good guess.. What I said above is how my thoughts goes.. I don't know the latteral force for the CSL either, therefore I use my own tests as a platform... Cause I have nothing else to go by..

But to end this wall of post, I must say that I think that we are down to small details which will never be modeled in a videogame.

And once again, your thread on this subject is the best I've read so far on GTplanet.. So I'm not arguing about that, I'm simply trying to test for my own, since the physics in GT5 is no way near as complicated as this subject actually is 👍

 

[calan_svc]

Good post. 👍

In that case, my guess is that the skidpad numbers that I've heard for the CSL are exaggerated, which is highly possible and likely given ^ that. If the CSL actually pulls something between a .94 and 1.0 IRL, SH tires would make perfect sense for it also, according to the numbers I see in the game. The F430 @ .94 is at the bottom of the SH range; the CSL could easily be in the upper end of it.

Maybe someone will pop in with a reputable test report on the M3 CSL.

 

[Illopp00]

In general Comfort Soft or Sport Hard will yield the most realistic laptimes compared to real life. Comfort Soft seems to be high-performance summer rubber, while Sport Hard will get you into some dedicated dry-weather track tires (what the Porsche GT3 wears).

 

[Denilson]

In general Comfort Soft or Sport Hard will yield the most realistic laptimes compared to real life. Comfort Soft seems to be high-performance summer rubber, while Sport Hard will get you into some dedicated dry-weather track tires (what the Porsche GT3 wears).

I understand what you are saying.. problem is that (have just recently had a big discusion about it ) IRL a tyre with of 255's with Michelin Pilot Sport Cup can generate as much latteral g-forca as 295's with Michelin Pilot Sport II. So in the game, the cars still needs to use the same tyres, cause the physics model does not calculate different with of tyres.

Sorry for poor grammar, but I hope you see what I meen. 👍