GT5's Game-Breaking Online Flaw (OP Updated: 11 Feb)

[CJSpencer77]

This is what I think would be the best way forward as I think there is a small chance we can figure it out what causes this and how to avoid it.

GTPlanet must be one of the bigger sites for GT5 users. There is a big online racing forum here. Of all the GT5 issues being discussed at GTPlanet, this is by far the biggest one, at least for people who are participating in organized online racing.

Is there a way where we can collectively from GTPlanet as a large number of people approach PD (or Kaz) and ask him the following:

- Is PD aware of this issue
- If yes, do they plan to fix it
- If yes but no plans to fix it, what causes the issue and how can it best be avoided

^ This sounds like our best bet ^, and if they already know what is happening maybe we will get some feedback

 

[jon-]

During free run/qualifying the ps3 sends much less network traffic. I know this to be fact as it has been evidenced as I have been monitoring gt5 network traffic looking at this bug.

Very interesting, how much difference are we talking?

Have you tried making yourself a fixed host and seeing how much data your console needs to push? I've 2mb up and couldn't host a lag free fixed host room. I might take my ps3 into the office (10/10) to see if I can run one off there.

How much difference in data between 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 etc people on track.

 

[esh]

Very interesting, how much difference are we talking?

Have you tried making yourself a fixed host and seeing how much data your console needs to push? I've 2mb up and couldn't host a lag free fixed host room. I might take my ps3 into the office (10/10) to see if I can run one off there.

How much difference in data between 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 etc people on track.

I have a 15/5 connection and hosted a fixed room Friday night with only one issue which was tire sounds disappearing for a few races though I think it was unrelated. Aside from that, with 10 people in the room the most bandwidth required was a spike around 160KB/sec, with the average being 80-90KB/sec. The spike was from being spun from behind with the whole pack coming up behind me and passing. There were no issues reported from those connected as to grip changing or being misrepresented or any lag. I had disabled visible damage, turned mics off and a race quality of very high.

I would say per client you would need 10-20KB/sec upstream to maintain a lag-free environment. Not sure how it would scale after 10 clients connected.

 

[griffinz]

Very interesting, how much difference are we talking?

Have you tried making yourself a fixed host and seeing how much data your console needs to push? I've 2mb up and couldn't host a lag free fixed host room. I might take my ps3 into the office (10/10) to see if I can run one off there.

How much difference in data between 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 etc people on track.

In free run vs actual race the data difference is huge, I haven't recorded numbers yet to compare, but I did have the bandwidth logging up and remember something in the neighborhood of 1/5th the traffic level. I plan to get some more hard numbers tonight. The only numbers I have kept so far I posted earlier in the thread, both p2p races at autumn ring.

 

[jon-]

1/5th!!! That's mental!

 

[CJSpencer77]

that doesnt surprise me knowing the difference between 12 people on track racing and 12 people on track in practice/quali, what i dont get though is why??? all the car location data etc. is being handled in both practice and race modes, the huge amounts of lag in race mode doesnt add up to the few extra things being handled over practice/quali mode, personally i think PD simply messed somthing up in one of the patches, and im keeping my fingers crossed itll be rectified in the next patch !!

 

[jon-]

that doesnt surprise me knowing the difference between 12 people on track racing and 12 people on track in practice/quali, what i dont get though is why??? all the car location data etc. is being handled in both practice and race modes, the huge amounts of lag in race mode doesnt add up to the few extra things being handled in race mode

Unless, as there's no replay being saved during practice the PS3 only sends sporadic updates for cars out of your field of view, say one every second (for arguments sake) just so your mini map shows rough positions of the cars.

On entering the race as everyone is recording detailed replays, updates have to be far more frequent no matter where the cars are on track and traffic increases 5 fold...

 

[dudeondacouch]

Or something in the draft model is creating a massive amount of data to be produced.

(It's inactive during free run.)

 

[brettcee]

Im not sure, I have PM'd Jordan and asked him to read the thread and post something in the news, as we know kaz and/or PD watch this forum.

I doubt he'll put anything negative about PD on the front/news page, we will see though.

 

[nealcropper]

It dont have to be negative, just a way of letting them know, if they dont already.

 

[OwensRacing]

I doubt he'll put anything negative about PD on the front/news page, we will see though.

If that's the case then maybe the racers shouldn't put threads on his website.

I'd like to think site admins would be sensitive to the problem and help solve it. Otherwise they just here to fluff and make cash.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Or something in the draft model is creating a massive amount of data to be produced.

(It's inactive during free run.)

Good points though. I did notice that, yesterday in our RX-7 TC race we had 14 people on track practicing with no issues, but when the race started it all went to hell. So, it has to be something that's used during the race that is not used in practice mode that is messing it up. Whether it's replay data, drafting, etc. 👍

 

[nasanu]

Good points though. I did notice that, yesterday in our RX-7 TC race we had 14 people on track practicing with no issues, but when the race started it all went to hell. So, it has to be something that's used during the race that is not used in practice mode that is messing it up. Whether it's replay data, drafting, etc. 👍

So in practice mode you all drive around the track in a tight pack like you do in the race? No.

When a car is on the other side of the track there is no need for accurate tracking of it. Only minimal updates are needed to the car position. A difference of 50M is nothing when the car is only a dot on a map.

When the car is next to you the data rate is ramped up because the tracking needs to be as accurate as possible (hence the spike that was noticed in the supplied data earlier). Try running in a tight pack just like a race in free run, I bet the data rates will almost match a real race. I say almost because there is data that is specific to a races which does not need tracking, things like lap numbers of other cars, order etc.

Stuff like draft is calculated on your local console and has nothing at all to do with the network.

 

[OwensRacing]

So in practice mode you all drive around the track in a tight pack like you do in the race? No.

When a car is on the other side of the track there is no need for accurate tracking of it. Only minimal updates are needed to the car position. A difference of 50M is nothing when the car is only a dot on a map.

When the car is next to you the data rate is ramped up because the tracking needs to be as accurate as possible (hence the spike that was noticed in the supplied data earlier). Try running in a tight pack just like a race in free run, I bet the data rates will almost match a real race. I say almost because there is data that is specific to a races which does not need tracking, things like lap numbers of other cars, order etc.

Stuff like draft is calculated on your local console and has nothing at all to do with the network.

Do you have any sources you can cite cause what I am curious of is what exactly gives you any credibility?

I mean this respectfully. Others I race with and have known online for a year or more so I got any idea who they are, what they know, and what they do for work.

Just wanna be sure what you are posting has some intellectual backing and not some smart but kid that thinks he knows and presents his case as fact. Very common online and highly likely on a gaming board. Surely you see my angle and can respect my requests.

 

[Speedy6543]

I'd like to think site admins would be sensitive to the problem and help solve it. Otherwise they just here to fluff and make cash.

Don't worry, we're on it.
I was in here earlier already and still keeping my eye on it.

BTW, all mods and admins are here voluntary.

 

[CodeRedR51]

So in practice mode you all drive around the track in a tight pack like you do in the race? No.

This issue was a problem even when the pack had spread out. It didn't fix itself until about half way through the race when two people lagged out, effectively fixing the problem. Pack racing has nothing to do with it.

 

[jon-]

So in practice mode you all drive around the track in a tight pack like you do in the race? No.

When a car is on the other side of the track there is no need for accurate tracking of it. Only minimal updates are needed to the car position. A difference of 50M is nothing when the car is only a dot on a map.

When the car is next to you the data rate is ramped up because the tracking needs to be as accurate as possible (hence the spike that was noticed in the supplied data earlier). Try running in a tight pack just like a race in free run, I bet the data rates will almost match a real race. I say almost because there is data that is specific to a races which does not need tracking, things like lap numbers of other cars, order etc.

Stuff like draft is calculated on your local console and has nothing at all to do with the network.

You can drive around in a pack in practice and not replicate the bug, would be interesting to see the data stacks.

The race will need much more accurate location data for the whole track due to the replay.

 

[Tidgney]

It's something to do with connections, I've had a similar issue as did a few people in a race we had. When somebody left the problem fixed itself we were all suddenly going 3 seconds faster per lap on shot tyres!? It definitely needs sorting though so PD another one of your very quick fixes is appreciated !

 

[OwensRacing]

Don't worry, we're on it.
I was in here earlier already and still keeping my eye on it.

BTW, all mods and admins are here voluntary.

Well I was more so referencing one person without naming names. . As well a slight bit of Mental kick start in that post.

But very refreshing to see your guys are on it. thank you

 

[carracerptp]

So in practice mode you all drive around the track in a tight pack like you do in the race? No.

When a car is on the other side of the track there is no need for accurate tracking of it. Only minimal updates are needed to the car position. A difference of 50M is nothing when the car is only a dot on a map.

When the car is next to you the data rate is ramped up because the tracking needs to be as accurate as possible (hence the spike that was noticed in the supplied data earlier). Try running in a tight pack just like a race in free run, I bet the data rates will almost match a real race. I say almost because there is data that is specific to a races which does not need tracking, things like lap numbers of other cars, order etc.

Stuff like draft is calculated on your local console and has nothing at all to do with the network.

I have actual been in a pack during a practice run, no lag/glitch at all.
I will still be trying this out. One more thing to had to the list of thing to test for.

 

[Gedi69]

The bugs struck again in my series.
PD sort it out your driving ppl away !

 

[nasanu]

Do you have any sources you can cite cause what I am curious of is what exactly gives you any credibility?

I mean this respectfully. Others I race with and have known online for a year or more so I got any idea who they are, what they know, and what they do for work.

Just wanna be sure what you are posting has some intellectual backing and not some smart but kid that thinks he knows and presents his case as fact. Very common online and highly likely on a gaming board. Surely you see my angle and can respect my requests.

Well credibility should not really need to come into it. Just think logically about what I say if and there is a logical flaw then take it up with me.

But if you want to know my background, not that I think it matters..

As far as career goes I am a web programer and an IT student (doing my degree slowly because of work and general lazyness) at the moment. As part of my degree I've had to do things like construct my own ram out of logic gates, write machine code assembly code to handle memory access and competing requests etc.. I might forget most of it after I pass my tests but my understanding of computing is far above average. Been programming for... No idea, maybe 13 years now. Nothing as serious as game physics though (I really hate math so I avoid building things like that), mostly database web driven stuff and mostly just for fun, I've never taken my career seriously, I'd rather program for fun than money.

As for the GT side of things I very highly doubt there is anyone here with the experience I do. I was racing GT 'online' back in 96 or 97. I was one of the people who made the rules now known as GTP rules (which are really GTOLR/GTF rules), two wheels on track etc. back before GTP even existed (GTP only exists as it does today because the GTF fell over under the weight of this own ego).

I base my opinions here on my knowledge of programming, logic, my extensive knowledge of online racing and I've also been in contact with people who make games for a living just to verify a few things (which I am NOT linking to, too many idiots on here). Take or leave what I say, but judge it on its merits.

 

[griffinz]

So in practice mode you all drive around the track in a tight pack like you do in the race? No.

When a car is on the other side of the track there is no need for accurate tracking of it. Only minimal updates are needed to the car position. A difference of 50M is nothing when the car is only a dot on a map.

When the car is next to you the data rate is ramped up because the tracking needs to be as accurate as possible (hence the spike that was noticed in the supplied data earlier). Try running in a tight pack just like a race in free run, I bet the data rates will almost match a real race. I say almost because there is data that is specific to a races which does not need tracking, things like lap numbers of other cars, order etc.

Stuff like draft is calculated on your local console and has nothing at all to do with the network.

This is just not true. When I have recently been monitoring the network traffic during a race it stays relatively constant regardless of how close the racing is.

 

[esh]

This is just not true. When I have recently been monitoring the network traffic during a race it stays relatively constant regardless of how close the racing is.

That's not what I witnessed at all. The total bandwidth (upstream) used would increase as players joined, as expected, but whenever there was a point in which 2 or more cars on the track came together and influenced the path of the other(s) there was more bandwidth consumed. As I mentioned previously, I got spun after contact in front of the whole pack (9 other cars) and during that whole interaction I saw a spike in upwards of 100% what was being used throughout regular racing situations.

I didn't take a screencap which would provide a timeline but the next time I run a room I will do so.

 

[griffinz]

That's not what I witnessed at all. The total bandwidth used would increase as players joined, as expected, but whenever there was a point in which 2 or more cars on the track came together and influenced the path of the other(s) there was more bandwidth consumed. As I mentioned previously, I got spun after contact in front of the whole pack (9 other cars) and during that whole interaction I saw a spike in upwards of 100% what was being used throughout regular racing situations.

I didn't take a screen shot which would provide a timeline but the next time a run a room I will do so.

All my references are for P2P rooms (non fixed host). In fixed host mode I see a data model like you specify.

 

[esh]

Ah, gotcha.

 

[jon-]

Stuff

Ah, so you remember Kenji? We must have been posting on the same sites for a long long time...

 

[Custer85]

During the last week and the last weekend i was able to do some racing online. I had about 10 races a day in one or 2 different lobbys each day wich summs up to roughly 50 races in 10 different lobbys and i never experienced anything like this. Neither did i hear other people complaining about the loss of performence or anything like it. I experienced 2 races with really terrible lag, making cars jump forward and backwards, but thats nothing out of the ordinary.

While GT5s online multiplayer is not perfect, its far from being broken. I think the performence problems experienced by some people in this thread might be related to internet connection problems, since i have had no issues at all.

 

[griffinz]

During the last week and the last weekend i was able to do some racing online. I had about 10 races a day in one or 2 different lobbys each day wich summs up to roughly 50 races in 10 different lobbys and i never experienced anything like this. Neither did i hear other people complaining about the loss of performence or anything like it. I experienced 2 races with really terrible lag, making cars jump forward and backwards, but thats nothing out of the ordinary.

While GT5s online multiplayer is not perfect, its far from being broken. I think the performence problems experienced by some people in this thread might be related to internet connection problems, since i have had no issues at all.

You just realize you said you didn't experience any issue in the first sentence, but then just one sentence later you did?

There is definitely an issue, but it may very well be in large non fixed host lobbies (12+ players) people with low upload bandwidth hurt the performance for everyone.

 

[cicua]

During the last week and the last weekend i was able to do some racing online. I had about 10 races a day in one or 2 different lobbys each day wich summs up to roughly 50 races in 10 different lobbys and i never experienced anything like this. Neither did i hear other people complaining about the loss of performence or anything like it. I experienced 2 races with really terrible lag, making cars jump forward and backwards, but thats nothing out of the ordinary.

How many were in those rooms?

I have not had the problem either... until yesterday in above mentioned RX-7 TC race. 14 identical cars on Grand Valley. Got 1.54 for what felt like a 1.47, the game alternated quickly between slow motion and normal motion, it was like the whole thing was wobbling back and forth. To boot I also got the speed bug; passed the line at 285 km/h where normal was 270. Just horrible.

This was in a room with the usual settings, I wonder if changing any of them could lessen the bug, such as:
Grip reduction = Low
Slipstream = Strong
Tyre/fuel = Off

Anyone tried this?