GT6: Balance between Sim and Game.

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Nikk O'lass
When there is talk about the GT series, there is always as strong focus on the realness of the game, the simulation of handling etc. Some people go as far as to say that things such as livery editors are not needed, as its a driving game or how damage isn't a priority because good drivers don't crash (:indiff:).


But, at the end of the day, its a game...or is it...


Do PD need to try and strike a balance between providing a platform for lounge room Stigs and average car loving gamers who just want a good game that provides them with good entertainment and the freedom to playa round with virtual mods and car collections?

Have NFS got the latter already covered? Could GT do more to improve its "gameness", as in more freedom on modifications?

Do/will games such as iRacing and Project CARS be there to cater for the hard-core simulation freaks?
 
The complete "simulation" aspect is very arbitrary and subjective. While some will praise one game for its physics and nothing else will be important to them, others will highlight overall immersion of some other game making attention to details more important than just physics. That debate can never be solved.

What any driving game in the current state of time need to do is try to find a way to cater all types of public. Gran Turismo, Forza Motorsport, pCARS.. all driving games bring different people from around the world with different views on all imaginable fields of what constitutes a perfect driving game.

That is the first point where game developer faces with the first "prisoner's dilemma": in order to make game accessible - thus making more money from potential sales - game needs to be approachable to as many players possible.

On the other hand, plethora of us here on GTPlanet - and other communities - are vocal in intention to GT series provide us with everything we ever wanted from some driving game. And there we have a problem.

I was writing about this particular issue more than a two years ago here on GTPlanet (regarding then incoming Shift 2) and later on pCARS WMD-development forum. I call this point in time the "Paradox Point".

The overall driving genre has come to the Paradox Point and it currently represents the main problem of the overall genre - as far as development and focusing the potential players/buyers is concerned - and in future it will be even more and more evident. Of course, the Paradox Point exists only for titles that tends to become popular to the wider-demographics and to exist on consoles, it is a non-issue for PC-specific *hard-corest* simulations, so they're excluded from the following breakdown.

Console-specific driving games also have something that PC simulations do not have: unlockable structure of the in-game progress and various collectibles (either prize cars, credits, XP system, whatever) as an prize for that same progress. Both of those are also very important for the second part of the Paradox Point.

On one side, you have something that no other genre has in cumulative: ability to portray the essence of your genre up to almost being "real" experience. Force feedback technology, processor power for graphics/sounds/AI and online racing pretty much gives unprecedented package where adequate implementation of "real" details can produce most immersive and accurate experience of all genres.

On the other side you have market, where people who actually wants to have "real" experience are distant minority when numbers needed to make the title profitable are in context.

As a developer / publisher I have all tools and tech on my disposal to make perfect simulation. But who will actually drive it? How can I make it accessible to majority/casuals? Unfortunately, the answer is not "make a scalable difficulty". Why? Because of the psychology of the man.

That is the exact place of birth of the Driving Game Paradox Point.

If you make game with option of "Normal Physics" and "Real Physics", you have a problem. Average Joe wants to play it on "Real". He doesn't want to play it on "Normal". Because Average Joe knows he's the best driver out there. He's the "Real Deal Joe". Then Average Joe dives into "Real" and in first corner he realise he's not Real Deal Joe. Average Joe turns furious and shovels the game. Because that game can't give him the feel of being the Real Deal. He doesn't want to drive on "Normal" or "Standard" or whatever.

And there is the Paradox - you can make the game real as "Real", but making it so will alienate majority of players. If your game become popular, you will have high expectations form the future buyers. But once the game releases and they realise how they are not able to play that game without someone holding their hand (assists, etc..), you will 100% suffer from the community backslash on various forums - and never forget how vocal minority is the most important factor unfortunately - thus hurting but current sales and potential sales of the next title.

And it even goes complex than pure simulation aspects of the physics, it also goes deep into structure of potential rewarding.

That problem is evident on example of the Gran Turismo 5 Seasonal Events (specific online events made for earning loads of XP/CR/prizes). When Seasonal Events were initially introduced, they came with great HP/weight/tire-type restrictions. However, the casual majority of players were shouting their mouths about Events being "hard", "impossible", "rigged", "bugged", "broken", etc. - usual internet whine. But unfortunately, those casual majority is the main population that plays the game. Also, that same casual majority is the main demographic that will determine the future success of some game on all platforms with exception of PC.

Two weeks later when original Seasonal Events were introduced, the restrictions were gone. Praising of casuals begun big-time (fueled with exploiting the dupe-system to Jupiter) while hard-core population suddenly felt cheated. Than came the proposal "make Events scalable - give less XP/Cr for usage of assists and driving without restrictions, but award those who drive without assists and comply the restrictions". And that is the second place of Paradox Point.

If you reward the hard-core more, you again make casuals to feel incompetent. And again you're making yourself a problem because Average Joe doesn't want to get only 200,000 Cr of his drive to 6th position. He wants full 1.500,000 Cr, Gold Trophy, 1st place everywhere and feeling he's Real Deal Joe. If the game can't provide him with the appropriate feeling of being competent, he will almost certainly not buy the next instalment. Which is a problem, real problem as long as long-term success of some IP is concerned.

You can now argue above with highlighting FM4 system for example, where usage of assists leads to removal of Cr/XP bonuses - but since the actual physics model was catered to favor the controller - and all game modes are united without option to filter anything - actual Paradox Point is removed due to catering all types of players under the same umbrella. However, the more serious players are then somewhat betrayed because they can't be competitive among each-others due to (probably well-planned for the reasons of making the game more approachable) lack of filtering based on assists used, input device used (although game recognises different input devices), etc.

I see no easy way to resolve the Paradox Point as long as game wants to cater all types of players. Introducing a plethora of driving assists is a nice way for start, but in order to have the equal amount of challenge for all types of players you need to introduce a very detailed filtering. However, more filtering would result with splitting of the userbase (depending of the game structure of course) and inevitable "Real Deal Joe" problems (just take a look at the GTPlanet at threads discussing usage of assists for example). And Paradox Point is there.

You can split the physics at the start - GT5: Prologue had that for example, where simplified physics was called "Normal" and full-physics was called "Professional" - but than you have to build the overall driving experience and game-design around that (testing of particular challenges with both physics, building the online options with that in mind, etc.). Again, you're splitting the userbase. FM4 dodged that bullet by unifying both physics type (Standard and Simulation) under the same umbrella (only determination factor in FM4 is the lap-time being "clean"), but that alienated the more serious players, especially those who are using both Simulation physics and the wheel. Again, Paradox Point.

Current state of gaming in total has abandoned any traces of old-school where difficulty and skill were determining the actual accomplishment. In my driving community we have numerous discussions about what we want from driving games but we're aware that times where needs of serious players were important are long gone.

To conclude without going into further explanations, I think GT series finds a good way to solve the Paradox Point with smart implementation of game-design choices. During my "Paradox Point Theory" development I've spent numerous hours in playing all driving games I have in my collection in order to determine differences in approach to "carrot and stick" problem and complexity that arises from Paradox Point - especially how it was done in multi-million selling franchises that somehow managed to break the Paradox barrier.

Path GT series is doing it is smart, strategic and very multi-level. I am very certain it will continue to be that way because of the sheer imagination that reflects in very different ways Polyphony is approaching the meta-development of Gran Turismo existence.
 
The GT series has always tried to keep some level of balance. That's part of the appeal really. Realistic physics with accessibility - though GT5's UI goes against what I've just said!

Like Kaz mentioned, he doesn't really compare Gran Turismo to other games - it's unlikely he'll say 'We won't do livery editor because other games do it already.'

It's probably also unlikely he'll say 'We will do livery editor because everyone else is!' Who knows - PD logic.
 
Anyone who is seriously into sim racing is already playing PC sims.

GT needs to raise the level of it's game-ness. It's already sim enough for a console.
 
Well, it's interesting because a simulator doesn't have to be very realistic at all. There are different levels of abstraction in simulators as well as in games. If you look at the typical hard core simulation, it usually consists of some pieces of paper, a toothpick and a pen.

The difference between a simulation and a game is that the goal of a simulation is to tests your abilities and reactions in certain situations, while the goal of a game is to win (and when it comes to the entertainment industry to also have fun while doing so).

If the simulator or the game is a consumer product, it also needs to be appealing to the consumer - that's where realism comes into play, it is wanted by some consumers because it is appealing to them. It doesn't make the Gran Turismo more or less of a simulator or more or less of a game though.

Instead of talking about simulation versus game, it's probably more accurate talk about realism versus abstraction (or simplification).
 
Interesting discussion; I too like the balance GT has struck in the past. I also like that it's still forging ahead with improving the car simulation aspects (hardcore stuff), and adding other layers of simulation (weather, sound) overall. It's always been a very different beast to anything else, and I'm looking forward to seeing where it's going next.

What's great is that we "hardcore" players can tailor our own experience; i.e. we're pretty much used to writing our own rules, so it'd be nice if PD offers a more open structure both online and offline alongside the "traditional" stuff that is more for the mass market.
 
An interesting philosophical observation there Amar.

As I am one of the guilty ones hoping for a difficulty level option, I now see it from the other side. Your logic makes sense and despite PD having arrived at a balance, it explains quite succinctly the damned if they do, damned if they don't feeling I get from comments around here.

Thank you for taking the time to write all of that and to share your insight.
 
PD's latest FF 430PP online seasonal is a sign that they hear the SRF complaints. Now we finally have SRF OPTIONAL seasonal again :D - PD still finding that balance :lol: Hopefully GT6 will please all of us.
 
A while back in the Pcars thread I posted: "I would like to feel as if a racing game extends from my reality, rather than being a complete removal from it. My question is: how would people feel about a game where the top tiers of racing might be completely out of their league? If I can drive a competitive lap time in an F1, or F1 equivalent car, the "sim" is way off being a sim. I have nowhere near that level of ability, and I am comfortable with that.

Are ALL "sims" just laughably juvenile, compared to what an actual sim would present? If the feel is right I am happy to try and squeeze as much out of myself in low to mid powered cars, making slow but meaningful progress toward higher tiers, but never actually reaching the elite levels. My ego can be boosted elsewhere.
"

It's kind of like when a burger franchise advertises a "chilli" burger. There will be an abundance of flames and devils and such, meanwhile the burger itself proves to be completely lacking in any genuine heat. The point being, that many will like the concept of something much more than the reality. The target demographic just wants to able to view themselves as hardened chilli mongers, just as many will be obsessed with driving simulated megapowered ludicrousmobiles and deluding themselves that they are one step away from reality.

Personally, I think that GT should be sent on divergent paths and make Arcade and GT modes actually different (woah!!). Flesh out Arcade mode to the point where it feels like a game in it's own drifty, fireworksy right, and flex ever more simmy muscles in GT mode.

In any event, the conundrum is finding a way where despite a game not being "clocked", it can still feel un-incomplete. Not an easy feat by any stretch though.
 
Wonderful post by Amar!

I'm just a casual gamer - I don't mind a challenge, but I don't necessarily want a game to remind me how poor of a (race car) driver I am in real life. Regardless of people's expectations of the game, what's really important is that they are able to take a few step backs from their own personal bias and see the bigger picture, instead of being afflicted with single-minded tunnel vision of only what's important to them.
 
In any event, the conundrum is finding a way where despite a game not being "clocked", it can still feel un-incomplete. Not an easy feat by any stretch though.

I think in these days of achievements and trophies everywhere, it's going to be very hard to satisfy people with something they can't finish.
 
There is nothing to balance. A simulator is a game, even the most hardcore one. PD should focus on making the physics as realistic as possible, won't change anything in how the game is played. People can still race, cruise, or wreck each other. Livery editor doesn't even enter the discussion since real cars have liveries.

A while back in the Pcars thread I posted: "I would like to feel as if a racing game extends from my reality, rather than being a complete removal from it. My question is: how would people feel about a game where the top tiers of racing might be completely out of their league? If I can drive a competitive lap time in an F1, or F1 equivalent car, the "sim" is way off being a sim. I have nowhere near that level of ability, and I am comfortable with that.

Are ALL "sims" just laughably juvenile, compared to what an actual sim would present? If the feel is right I am happy to try and squeeze as much out of myself in low to mid powered cars, making slow but meaningful progress toward higher tiers, but never actually reaching the elite levels. My ego can be boosted elsewhere.
"

It's kind of like when a burger franchise advertises a "chilli" burger. There will be an abundance of flames and devils and such, meanwhile the burger itself proves to be completely lacking in any genuine heat. The point being, that many will like the concept of something much more than the reality. The target demographic just wants to able to view themselves as hardened chilli mongers, just as many will be obsessed with driving simulated megapowered ludicrousmobiles and deluding themselves that they are one step away from reality.

Personally, I think that GT should be sent on divergent paths and make Arcade and GT modes actually different (woah!!). Flesh out Arcade mode to the point where it feels like a game in it's own drifty, fireworksy right, and flex ever more simmy muscles in GT mode.

In any event, the conundrum is finding a way where despite a game not being "clocked", it can still feel un-incomplete. Not an easy feat by any stretch though.

Arcade Mode is the better sim mode. GT mode has credits, unlocking, and other trivial things. Arcade should basically become an emulation of a PC sim.
 
For me, I'm not so much obsessed with the idea that GT needs to be crazy "realistic." The important thing (and the thing that I've always felt was great about the GT games) is that the driving model be very dynamic and that the cars behave in a reasonably convincing manner in relation to one another and in relation to their real world counterparts. What I don't want is to ever get the feeling that I've "maxed out" my time on a given track and that there's no more room to get a better lap - a quality of some pure arcade racers where its more about timing button pushes in a very digital way - or to feel like any two laps of a track are identical as though its the same lap over and over again.
 
I'm still waiting to hear any actual reason frome someone as to why having scalable difficulty is such a terrible thing as I seem to hear so often. Yes, people will complain. And they will complain if you don't. People will always complain. Many many games still have variable difficulties and still sell. There is no reason a racing game should be any different. Not having the option simply guarantees that a large chunk of your potential audience finds the game far to easy or far too difficult.

Having difficulty options actually allows you to greatly enhance the "game" for all of your audience while at no sacrifice on the "sim" aspect. PD has clearly always had a "something for everyone" approach just as they've always been trying to strike a balance between the "game" and "sim" aspects, so to not allow faster or slower drivers to race faster or slower opponents makes very little sense.

Yes you can make it harder by racing with a slow car or by playing with your eyes closed, and yes you can make it easier by playing with a faster car(in A-Spec) or having a friend come over and beat the tough races for you. That is however not even remotely as satisfying as simply changing the difficulty so that you can have the challenge you want in a race that appears fair(using roughly equal equipment). Difficulty also can allow you to race on "Super Easy" with a very weak car or "Impossible" with a very fast one depending on how the mood takes you.

Not every Average Joe is also "I Absolutely Must Have Constant Reinforcement of How Great I Am Joe." If he can't win on a higher difficulty level, he can lower it or practice. Betting that there are more people who won't buy the next game if they see an option that makes the game too hard in the current one than there are that won't buy the next game if this one makes them jump through silly hoops to make it winnable or to get any challenge out of it is a valid approach to have, but it's not a very nice way to treat your paying customers. There are already plenty of ways Average Joe can likely make GT5 too difficult for him to handle, so why is it unacceptable to expect him to have to deal with not being able to win on the highest difficulty setting? He'll go online or talk to someone else and discover he's not The Greatest Racer In the World sooner or later anyway.

I realize games(and everything else) are made for those who complain the loudest, but it doesn't always have to be that way. I'm not sure that giving them what they complain about will stop them complaining anyway. It's always difficult for any business as it's tough to get an accurate measure of what all of your customers' opinions actually are. There are lots of complaints, some valid and some not and some just a matter of taste, about GT but somehow the game keeps selling by the ton. So I guess they must be doing some things right. In my opinion the "one-opponent-size-fits-all" method is not one of them. But then we get to the question of how to actually fix that...
 
"Real Deal Joe"! That's great, heh. I like what was said about making Arcade more of a sim-mode. Leave GT Mode for the quicky races and trophies and turn Arcade into as full on a sim as possible. Have it be a true Event maker with customizable fields, tougher AI etc... Everyone is happy.
 
"Real Deal Joe"! That's great, heh. I like what was said about making Arcade more of a sim-mode. Leave GT Mode for the quicky races and trophies and turn Arcade into as full on a sim as possible. Have it be a true Event maker with customizable fields, tougher AI etc... Everyone is happy.

Not everyone, why should Arcade / Sim Mode get cool features like tougher AI and a proper Event Maker? They could improve GT Life too :P.

But seriously I think I do get what you're talking about though, perhaps instead of "Arcade Mode" it should be called "Sandbox Mode" and be a hybrid of the current Arcade / GT Life modes.

Basically a mode where you can choose from all the cars right away then mod them as much / little as you want and save them in a garage list of sorts (like in GT Mode but without the money / availability restrictions), create your own events / tournaments / time trials / etc with whatever opponents and AI difficulty you like, as well as the ability to just hop in a car and run a Quick Race with some simple adjustable settings that's built around your vehicle.

In terms of online play there could be a setting in the Options so the game either looks at GT Life or Sandbox garage list and structures any online features like prize money / cost of upgrades accordingly.
 
...massive wall of text...

Well said, except I don't believe there is any paradox. There is no paradox in having better sounds. Everyone can enjoy them, no one is harmed by them and no one's experience is degraded in any way by having more accurate game sounds, or at least something that sounds like it belongs in this century. If they are too loud, you hit the little "-" volume button and voila, total control of sound level.

As far as physics go, that's another invalid argument too. More accurate, realistic physics will not degrade anyone's experience, it will only enhance the experience of some, while the rest won't even notice. SRF, ASM, TC, ABS, Active Steering, are already in the game and used by the majority of gamers I suspect. Most people use racing tires most of the time if online racing is any indication, which removes much of the physics anyway. Already there is mention of a "hardcore" mode for GT6, which I believe was referring to tire wear or tire temps or something along those lines.
 
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I'm still waiting to hear any actual reason frome someone as to why having scalable difficulty is such a terrible thing as I seem to hear so often. Yes, people will complain. And they will complain if you don't. People will always complain. Many many games still have variable difficulties and still sell. There is no reason a racing game should be any different. Not having the option simply guarantees that a large chunk of your potential audience finds the game far to easy or far too difficult.

Having difficulty options actually allows you to greatly enhance the "game" for all of your audience while at no sacrifice on the "sim" aspect. PD has clearly always had a "something for everyone" approach just as they've always been trying to strike a balance between the "game" and "sim" aspects, so to not allow faster or slower drivers to race faster or slower opponents makes very little sense.


Yes you can make it harder by racing with a slow car or by playing with your eyes closed, and yes you can make it easier by playing with a faster car(in A-Spec) or having a friend come over and beat the tough races for you. That is however not even remotely as satisfying as simply changing the difficulty so that you can have the challenge you want in a race that appears fair(using roughly equal equipment). Difficulty also can allow you to race on "Super Easy" with a very weak car or "Impossible" with a very fast one depending on how the mood takes you.

Not every Average Joe is also "I Absolutely Must Have Constant Reinforcement of How Great I Am Joe." If he can't win on a higher difficulty level, he can lower it or practice. Betting that there are more people who won't buy the next game if they see an option that makes the game too hard in the current one than there are that won't buy the next game if this one makes them jump through silly hoops to make it winnable or to get any challenge out of it is a valid approach to have, but it's not a very nice way to treat your paying customers. There are already plenty of ways Average Joe can likely make GT5 too difficult for him to handle, so why is it unacceptable to expect him to have to deal with not being able to win on the highest difficulty setting? He'll go online or talk to someone else and discover he's not The Greatest Racer In the World sooner or later anyway.

I realize games(and everything else) are made for those who complain the loudest, but it doesn't always have to be that way. I'm not sure that giving them what they complain about will stop them complaining anyway. It's always difficult for any business as it's tough to get an accurate measure of what all of your customers' opinions actually are. There are lots of complaints, some valid and some not and some just a matter of taste, about GT but somehow the game keeps selling by the ton. So I guess they must be doing some things right. In my opinion the "one-opponent-size-fits-all" method is not one of them. But then we get to the question of how to actually fix that.

Your able comment is certainly one part of the Paradox amar discussed at length.

With the advancement of console capability, comes more expectations from a myriad of viewpoints.

I believe this subject, which is one of several, has to be addressed in GT6, or PD will face increasing criticism and aleination from many fans of the series.

The thing I still can't understand about this, is the fact PD already implemented and tested what IMO was the most innovative and imaginative difficulty system in any racing game to date. That being the Aspec points system in GT4. It couldn't have been too much of a blow to Joe's ego, selling 10 million copies.(I think thats right)

Now having praised it, I must confess it was not without some warts that would need addressing. Even though some of the max point races required very skillful car, setup and line up selection, they also required very skillfull car bashing and wall riding, which could hardly qualify as "Sim like".

I must disagree with your statement, "I realize games(and everything else) are made for those who complain the loudest",
In reality, I believe they are made by estimation of the largest possible mass appeal, as in, they think they can successfully sell too. IMO squawking is a secondary issue, among those you have already sold too. The louder, the more a factor, I guess.

The mention of hardcore mode does seem to hint at some form of difficulty leveling.

It will be interesting to see how they decide to "tip toe through the paradox tulips" this time around.
 

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