GT6 graphics downgrade over GT5*comparison inside!*

[andryush]

You are looking at two different lighting models with a definite bias towards GT5, since you are completely blind to what is being depicted in the GT6 example.

In the GT5 pic, you see all cars have a uniform light cast in front of them. In the GT6 photo, you can see how the light overlaps and the road is lit by all cars in the range, which is more authentic. You can all see the road is lit in the distance by two more cars in GT6 pic, but in GT5 only the first two cars cast light.

What are you trying to describe by saying that GT6 is "toned down"?

Well, actually both games have increased number of cars which cast light at the road on this track. In GT6 it's 4 cars, in GT5 it is 3 or also 4 cars, but on this particular shot 2 nearest cars to the camera didn't fit in the frame (they are just too close to the camera which is pointed at the player's car.) Also this shot shows, that in GT6 only 1 car out of 4, lights the environment around the track (this would be the player's car), while in GT5 you see that car behind my Ferrari also lights barriers and objects behind them, i don't remember what about third and possibly fourth one.

(3 cars casting light at the road in GT5)

@GregOr1971

What i'm trying to say is that new features are not worth doing such trade-offs. It hurts user experience.

@Azure Flare

16 premium cars on track at the same time still works.

Apparently not for offline racing in GT6.

 

[lTwiSparkle]

Apparently not for offline racing in GT6.

Ehm, you have made it past the lower leagues in career mode, right? :s

For the rest though I do agree, the GT5 lighting has been toned down in favour of more "authentic" and "next gen" lighting effects. PS4 tech demo, anyone? ;p

 

[Shirrako]

Probably not entirely at its place here, but @Shirrako:

D: it doesn't appear for me, last time i tried was with the 1.03 Update though..

 

[eran0004]

Do I need to have GT6 in order to see these comparison shots. I'm looking at them just like everybody else here can, probably with more experienced eyes than yours.

I'm giving an opinion based on what I see in these pictures, I don't know what I'm talking about? how is that even possible when I didn't actually elaborate on anything?

You my friend make no sense at all. If you like GT6's graphics that's fine but you can't refute what DF tests show nor what the pictures above show.

If you had the game you would know that photomode graphics are different from driving and replay graphics. And how is that "sunlight burning earth" less realistic than GT5?

 

[TenEightyOne]

@GregOr1971

What i'm trying to say is that new features are not worth doing such trade-offs. It hurts user experience.

But only in your opinion. It seems that there are many whose opinion differs from yours, no?

 

[PepeMickey]

If you had the game you would know that photomode graphics are different from driving and replay graphics. And how is that "sunlight burning earth" less realistic than GT5?

Umm, almost every game out there uses different "graphics" on different parts of the game, that's called LOD and in features similar to Photo Mode the game is actually supposed to look at its best. Not sure what you're trying to tell me here, does driving and replays look even worse?

Also, do those big yellow squares look fine to you. Do you understand that no camera in the world will produce that effect? and most certainly, nobody's eyes can see something like it in real life.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Also, do those big yellow squares look fine to you. Do you understand that no camera in the world will produce that effect?

How very odd, most digital TV looks a lot worse than that... fine gradients aren't represented well at the normal transmission bandwidth. That's not the camera of course, it's the sum of the process.

I'm not making an excuse for GT6 but you should be realistic about exactly what level of realism you expect from the PS3 (or XB1/PS4 for that matter). GT6 has (in my opinion) added a number of gfx improvements at the expense of some finer details. That seems a fair trade-off to me.

 

[eran0004]

Umm, almost every game out there uses different "graphics" on different parts of the game, that's called LOD and in features similar to Photo Mode the game is actually supposed to look at its best. Not sure what you're trying to tell me here, does driving and replays look even worse?

Also, do those big yellow squares look fine to you. Do you understand that no camera in the world will produce that effect? and most certainly, nobody's eyes can see something like it in real life.

See, you don't even know what I'm talking about... In photomode, the graphics changes when you view it through the camera, to mimic the effects you'd see in photography. And for your information, lens flare do exist in real life.

Perhaps you should try the photomode yourself to see what the graphics are actually like. Oh right, you don't have the game...

 

[Voodoovaj]

What i'm trying to say is that new features are not worth doing such trade-offs. It hurts user experience.

If the user experience is all about debating the lighting model. For me, it's the driving.

If you are going to try and convince us of your point of view, you should not contradict your own evidence. You should also show consistent photos. In GT5 picture, there are 5 cars, and from what I see, the draw distance on the lighting effects from the cars stops at the third car in line. In the GT6 picture, you have one car shining light onto a lit track.

From your evidence, I see an additive light system (I didn't go look to see if this is the case, just going by your photos). That would be a MUCH better system since you can have light from all the cars in the region lighting an area, as opposed to the GT5 system where only your car lights the scene. If it is indeed additive, the reason you do not see light cast is because it is at it's set maximum.

So, again I ask, what is "toned down" or a "downgrade" when the new system is obviously more technically advanced and more useful to the player? Are you saying it worse because your photo mode pictures don't look as pretty?

Also, do those big yellow squares look fine to you. Do you understand that no camera in the world will produce that effect? and most certainly, nobody's eyes can see something like it in real life.

This one is confusing to me, because I have never seen these odd squares in the game. Aside from the pictures in this thread, has anyone actually seen these in game?

 

[Voodoovaj]

So here are my photomode photos from the same spot (emphasis on PHOTOMODE)

Hmmm...no squares.

Now, I will admit that in process of taking these pics, there were a few angles where the effect from the light definitely looked squarish .... some angles .... the angles that @andryush went out of his way to accentuate.

They were also ONLY viewable through the camera lens in photomode. No matter what direction I looked at the light with the in game camera, both paused to position the camera for photos or from in the car on track, there were no square lights to be seen at all.

However, the headlights from my car, which I now paid very close attention to, looking incredibly realistic. It was just like I was driving around in real life. When I was in darkness, the surroundings were lit. When I was in lit areas, I could barely see the lights...just like real life.

So, just so I understand and since you started this thread to prove how much of a step back GT6 is, please explain to me again how this far more realistic lighting method is a step backwards.

Setting for those who would like to see for themselves are Ferrari F40 (although I don't believe the car matters), High beam headlights, LeSarthe 2013, Midnight, no rain.

 

[PepeMickey]

lens flare do exist in real life.

I've never seen squared lense flare in my life, I don't have the game because I can't be bothered to pick it up but having played GT5, reading DF's tests and many experiences from users who do have the game plus my reasonable background on 3D modeling and rendering and physical proof through pictures and videos and looking at the game first-hand (demo and at a friend's house). Is more than enough information for me to judge the game and GT5 is better graphically.

You're here showing me a picture not sure what are you trying to say, you still haven't explained why GT6 is better than GT5 other than provide emotions and subjective opinions. It doesn't matter how pretty you think it looks, the evidence is there and you can't refute it.

 

[andryush]

The matter here isn't about square lens flare. It is definitely graphical bug. The problem is that GT6 can't produce equally beautiful dawn at Nordschleife. GT6 can't produce beautifully glowing lights in the dark. Reduced count of dynamic lights of the cars was already confirmed by Digital Foundry... That's all and this is what my comparison shots show.

 

[eran0004]

This one is confusing to me, because I have never seen these odd squares in the game. Aside from the pictures in this thread, has anyone actually seen these in game?

While other think they're everywhere because they see it in one picture...

I did see them in game though. They occur when there's a strong lens flare. Usually it takes the sun or the reflection of the sun to create them. Or if you zoom in on the headlights. And as been stated previously, they are only there when you take a photo or look through the camera viewfinder. The amount of zoom as well as EV settings has an effect on how clearly they appear.

 

[JohnScoonsBeard]

I've just done some comparitive laps and compared driving and also taken a couple of photos.

Car lights in GT5 don't work correctly. They are very inefficient. They only light up the track immediately in front of the car and to the sides, not in the area ahead of that where you need to be looking when racing. There's a dead (or diminished) area of lighting right where you need it the most. In GT6 it's pretty much spot on. Both pictures are taken with full beam headlights from the GTR Black '12.

In the GT5 pic the car in front is a little further away but lighting is clearly straight ahead in GT6.

GT5

GT6

When driving in the dark GT5 has some nasty graining/cross hatching in the areas of reduced light. This is very obvious in moving footage, obviously when driving and in replays. It is generally improved in a rendered photo though.

The instruments still glow a bit in Gt6 but not quite as much as in Gt5. That is an improvement for me from a useability point of view.

GT6 does render 16 cars on track at once. See Route X (GT5 shown too). I see little difference in photomode between the 2 here although the cross hatching in the night sky is present again in GT5 when playing/watching the replay..

GT6 first

Plenty of car detail there even at the back

Gt5 photo looks good too

Dynamic range -

GT6 CAPTURES a higher dynamic range than GT5 (at the very least in cockpit mode and possibly in more views). This is the way our eyes capture light. That is why it appears slightly flatter than GT5 which is showing larger areas of blown highlights (which technically from a photographers angle we normally try and avoid as all detail is lost). A camera wouldn't be able to capture an image with as much dynamic range as there is in GT6 and that is why HDR (High Dynamic Range) photography is so popular with some. Often it is a software process effect that people push too far ending up with exceedingly flat fake looking images. The HDR "effect" that GT6 uses is fairly light. However maybe it could benefit from a slight tweak but it does a pretty good job.

If some people want to see brighter highlights and darker shadows then turn up the contrast on your TV which you may possibly have set on a lower contrast for GT5's under and overexposure. GT6 tries to display highlights and shadows so we don't get such blownout clouds and dark shadows that you regularly see when playing GT5. PD have done this for GT6 to try and replicate what our eyes see. It does produce a slightly flatter final result as the screen doesn't display the full range of our eyes either but as I said earlier you could try setting your TV contrast a bit higher to try and boost the extremes (highlights and shadows). As a photographer I would prefer to have a flatter raw image that can be tweaked than one with blown highlights and lost shadows with no detail that can be subsequently recovered at either end of the spectrum.


One other subject is the look of the glare when looking at car and track lights. You would normally see that sparkle effect get greater at an aperture of F8 or F11 or god forbid when using a starlight filter (yuck - all the rage in the 70's). Neither GT5 nor GT6 model that change. Try it yourself by focussing on a headlight and changing aperture from f45 down to 1.0. I will admit that GT5's sparkle is slightly cleaner than GT6's though.

The sun square block bug can be recreated at Brands Hatch GP at sun down by pointing the camera at the sun. It's a bug. Hopefully it will be fixed.

 

[Voodoovaj]

The matter here isn't about square lens flare. It is definitely graphical bug. The problem is that GT6 can't produce equally beautiful dawn at Nordschleife. GT6 can't produce beautifully glowing lights in the dark. Reduced count of dynamic lights of the cars was already confirmed by Digital Foundry... That's all and this is what my comparison shots show.

I guess it's just going to come down to opinion on this one. I don't agree with your opinion, and even on the digital foundry opinions, because my experience contradicts the statements. "Reduced count of dynamic lights" is simply not a true statement. I don't know how this conclusion was reached. Maybe my experience allows me to appreciate how the headlights on multiple cars work together to light the scene. Having more lights that do not work together is kind of useless to me (although, I have yet to see fewer lights in GT6).

In my opinion, based on what my eyes see, I see better lighting effects as a whole. The scenes and the cars are lit in a way that is more authentic and more aesthetically pleasing to me. @PepeMickey, your comments can't even be approached because you are basing your experience on second hand knowledge. Go get the game, play it, then form an opinion.

What would you say if I ranted on about how ugly Mexico is based on my experience with the media, although I have never actually visited your country? I would expect you'd find that statement unfair and unsubstantiated.

I'll leave it at this. I like to use the game to race other people and the improvement made overall to the game makes that part of the game far more enjoyable to me.

If the occasional squarish lens flare or the way they shade the sky ruins the game for you, then I guess you should stick to GT5.

 

[andryush]

@JohnScoonsBeard

I found out that GT6 performance varies from track to track. Same for GT5. For example on Nordschleife in GT5 you can see less cars than on La Sarthe. So car count on track varies. For GT6 i car count was generally lower than in GT5. (Offline racing!)

@Voodoovaj

Of course you can have your own opinion. If you find GT6 looking better for you, that's fine. I think there is still few people, who think GT5 looks better.

Also i think it's little foolish to reject conclusions of people who certainly are more into technical aspects of 3D graphics. (DF)

 

[eran0004]

I've never seen squared lense flare in my life, I don't have the game because I can't be bothered to pick it up but having played GT5, reading DF's tests and many experiences from users who do have the game plus my reasonable background on 3D modeling and rendering and physical proof through pictures and videos and looking at the game first-hand (demo and at a friend's house). Is more than enough information for me to judge the game and GT5 is better graphically.

You're here showing me a picture not sure what are you trying to say, you still haven't explained why GT6 is better than GT5 other than provide emotions and subjective opinions. It doesn't matter how pretty you think it looks, the evidence is there and you can't refute it.

"Evidence", don't make me laugh.

1. The sky. Sure, in GT6 there are some gradient issues. In GT5 there aren't, because there is no gradient. The entire sky is the same shade in every direction. In GT5 there's only a minimum amount of clouds. The only tracks that has decent clouds are those that doesn't have time change. In GT6, there are clouds even on time-change tracks (at least on Nürburgring, which is the only track I've compared). 1-0 to GT6.
2. The sun. In GT5 it's a big ball of blur. Apart from that there's absolutely nothing exciting going on. Especially not if you're looking for reflections in the bodywork of your car. Sure, in GT6 photomode there are some lens flare issues, but at least there is lense flare. And the reflections off the bodywork looks great. The lens flare issue can be managed by playing around the with the zoom, the EV and the direction of the camera. GT5 also has an issue where there's an "ink ghost" following the sun when it's low above the horizon. Doesn't happen in GT6. 2-0 to GT6.
3. The shadows. In GT5 they are jagged. In GT6 they are smooth. 3-0 to GT6.
4. The mirrors. In GT5 it's a minimal representation of what's going on behind you. In GT6 they're a lot more detailed. And what's more, if you have the sun behind you, it will reflect in the mirrors and on the dashboard. 4-0 to GT6.
5. The screen. In GT5, it looks like there's a film of grain on top of everything. In GT6, it doesn't. That's 5-0 to GT6.

 

[emula]

GT5

GT6

GT5

GT6

GT5

GT6

GT5

GT6

GT5

GT6

GT6 looks better
.

 

[ChipChaserJ]

there is a lot less pop up in GT6, that made night racing terrible for me in 5.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Also i think it's little foolish to reject conclusions of people who certainly are more into technical aspects of 3D graphics. (DF)

You're making an erroneous assumption there

Also, after reading the Digital Foundry article on eurogamer, I didn't seen any mention of the reduced dynamic lighting you mentioned (maybe I just missed it), but I did find this quote...

" the advanced lighting solution, and the beautiful post-processing utilised in replays, it's fair to say that a boost to image quality and performance alone could make for a convincingly high-end PS4 title."

I agree that it's foolish to reject conclusions of people who certainly more into technical aspects of 3d graphics

 

[andryush]

@eran0004

The sky. Sure, in GT6 there are some gradient issues. In GT5 there aren't, because there is no gradient. The entire sky is the same shade in every direction.

The sun. In GT5 it's a big ball of blur. Apart from that there's absolutely nothing exciting going on.

Are you serious? Gues which is from GT5.

If you don't see beautiful, smooth color transition from the sun to the sky, you're blind.

I know you like GT6 more, but please stop writing such nonsenses.

Although this effect in GT6 could look also very plastically if PD would have made it higher res and with higher colour depth!! I hope to see it fixed in future updates!

Now you understand the difference between this 2 games and their skies?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Although this effect in GT6 could look also very plastically if PD would have made it higher res and with higher colour depth!! I hope to see it fixed in future updates!

You've already said that only a few people agree with you yet you continue to hammer the point based on two pictures taken with different settings... I suspect deliberately so.

Plenty of other people in the thread have tried to subjectively argue what they see as the facts and to objectively argue their own opinion.

My personal opinion is that your facts are flawed and that you're flogging a dead horse.

 

[andryush]

Serously guys, i'm tired of explaining to you why we see this differences. You don't want to listen, every one of you knows everything the best. I made detailed comparisons which pinpoint the differences in the lighting effects during night racing. I provided you with logical explanations.

If you think you can discredit my comparisons, then please make your own, GT5 vs GT6, and SHOW me that i was wrong. For the most time, there is only talking by you, no actions.

Thanks for your time

 

[eran0004]

@eran0004





Are you serious? Gues which is from GT5.

If you don't see beautiful, smooth color transition from the sun to the sky, you're blind.

I know you like GT6 more, but please stop writing such nonsenses.

Although this effect in GT6 could look also very plastically if PD would have made it higher res and with higher colour depth!! I hope to see it fixed in future updates!

Now you understand the difference between this 2 games and their skies?

Yes I'm serious. GT6 has a gradient changing the tone of the sky. Look at the complete sky, not only the zoomed in neighbourhood of the sun. GT6 has a gradient, GT5 doesn't. In GT5 the sky is blue in every direciton, even at sunrise. Once you get very close to the sun in GT5 there's a change in colour, but it looks more like it's a screen effect of the sun rather than a gradient applied to the sky.

GT6 has the same smooth, beautiful transition from the sun to the sky as GT5 has, but in addition to that, it also got a gradient changing the tone of the sky.

It's easy to not have gradient issues when you don't have any gradients. It doesn't look very good though. The only time the sky should have the same tone from one end to the other is when there's an overcast.

And just for the record: In the GT6 shots the trees are lit up by the high beams of the car, while in the GT5 shot they're black. I parked the car at the same place for both shots.

Edit: And sorry if I sound annoyed. It's just that GT5 is so slow to load...

 

[JohnScoonsBeard]

@JohnScoonsBeard

I found out that GT6 performance varies from track to track. Same for GT5. For example on Nordschleife in GT5 you can see less cars than on La Sarthe. So car count on track varies. For GT6 i car count was generally lower than in GT5. (Offline racing!)

Fair enough. It is good sense they do that at the Nordschleife as the track is so big and the field tends to spread out very quickly. All 16 would not be seen from the same viewpoint for long.

I should point out as I didn't earlier that the 16 cars at Route X were in an offline career race.

 

[Shirrako]

Yes I'm serious. GT6 has a gradient changing the tone of the sky. Look at the complete sky, not only the zoomed in neighbourhood of the sun. GT6 has a gradient, GT5 doesn't. In GT5 the sky is blue in every direciton, even at sunrise. Once you get very close to the sun in GT5 there's a change in colour, but it looks more like it's a screen effect of the sun rather than a gradient applied to the sky.

GT6 has the same smooth, beautiful transition from the sun to the sky as GT5 has, but in addition to that, it also got a gradient changing the tone of the sky. GT5 doesn't. So I know you prefer GT5 over GT6, but please stop writing such nonsense.

View attachment 117733
View attachment 117759

It's easy to not have gradient issues when you don't have any gradients. It doesn't look very good though. The only time the sky should have the same tone from one end to the other is when there's an overcast.

Now you understand the differences between these two games and their skies?

And just for the record: In the GT6 shots the trees are lit up by the high beams of the car, while in the GT5 shot they're black. I parked the car at the same place for both shots.

Edit: And sorry if I sound annoyed. It's just that GT5 is so slow to load...

The size of the sun and the lightning is unrealistic, these images show that, when you see the sunet in real life the sky is not that dark and the size of the sun is much larger than the sun in GT5.

GT6 gets the size of the sun right and the colour of the sky.

 

[eran0004]

The size of the sun and the lightning is unrealistic, these images show that, when you see the sunet in real life the sky is not that dark and the size of the sun is much larger than the sun in GT5.

GT6 gets the size of the sun right and the colour of the sky.

The darkness of the sky depends on the exposure of the shot. I've taken sunset pictures (IRL) where the sky is almost black. For the two shots above I have a negative EV of around 1 - 1.5. The camera in game also automatically adjusts the exposure depending on where you aim the camera. If you aim at something bright, exposure automatically drops.

Both games are still far way from sceneries like this, though:

 

[andryush]

@eran0004 Good comparison! Light on the trees in GT6 shot comes from sun or from car? Can you make comparison with car visible on the shot? Also i think you mentioned exposure value somewhere...why you used negative exposure?

Both games have different lighting conditions at the same hour, in case of my shots i had to set different time of the day, to get similar lighting conditions, but still, as my first shots on Nordschleife and shots from La Sarthe show, GT6 is little darker.

 

[eran0004]

@eran0004 Good comparison! Light on the trees in GT6 shot comes from sun or from car?

Thank you The light comes from the car. It's facing the wrong way just under the Bilstein bridge, maybe there's some additional light source there as well?

Edit: Nope, it's only from the car.

 

[Shirrako]

The darkness of the sky depends on the exposure of the shot. I've taken sunset pictures (IRL) where the sky is almost black. For the two shots above I have a negative EV of around 1 - 1.5. The camera in game also automatically adjusts the exposure depending on where you aim the camera. If you aim at something bright, exposure automatically drops.

Both games are still far way from sceneries like this, though:

Imagine if GT7 has a sky like this... i would probably lose every race due to staring at the sky.