GT7 & PSVR2

[Tidgney]

@Tidgney i think you really need to use VR more.

Yes you are faster in bumper cam after 10 years of practice.

where I am a little annoyed is I’m like .5 behind you so clearly not missing apexes wildly. And racing in VR in A/S (yes the sweatier low ones)

I think personally my driving is better in VR than it’s ever been. I’m top 2/300 in the world across all the races maintain a full SR S



Here is the bumper cam




Edit: it occurred to me, when you said people miss apexes etc running behind yours today I’ve realised that we just have the same apex and arguably some of those curbs are doable at your lines but in VR not so much, because the braking and exit lines are different in the moment.

I will use VR for fun but I won't use it for sport mode until at least there's more information. But I stand by the fact you will miss more apexes in VR and also not drive the perfect line in VR than not in VR. As you go higher in DR that becomes more vital, lower DR it's not so much as there's other improvements that can be made (Braking / accelerating etc.) so apexes and perfect lines become less important. But I never said people will miss apexes wildly even if you miss 1 apex more per lap vs bumper or bonnet cam that's still more than I want to miss if I'm trying to compete (Sport mode).

My lap on Daily Race B was literally done in 5 minutes, I'm quite sure I can go quicker I just couldn't do more at the time due to the plumber and pooping baby (Quite an excuse I know).

As I say if VR was ultimately the quickest way to race on any racing game / simulator every single alien would be doing it (Even more so in iracing with cockpit camera being forced) but it's not. My opinion on that won't change until the data says otherwise but I do enjoy VR offline for fun and also in time trial now I've started doing that. But I only do it in that as I have so many requests for it and some people say the markers don't work in VR so I like to check / make sure and I do enjoy VR when not trying to be competitive. Getting top 10 on bumper (Competitive) vs just getting gold (Fun).

 

[newmedia_dev]

But I stand by the fact you will miss more apexes in VR and also not drive the perfect line in VR than not in VR

Nope mate, practice is practice. You telling me maxpower misses more apexes with chase cam, or that bumper is better than hood cam.

Be rational dude, I absolutely appreciate you can go faster but that’s 2/10ths or 4/10ths

We are are not talking massive stuff. Let’s be really careful I’m not a top split driver or in the “gang” so being top 300 is more representative of most of us than world tour drivers.

As you go higher in DR that becomes more vital, lower DR it's not so much as there's other improvements that can be made (Braking / accelerating etc.) so apexes and perfect lines become less important

I’m in lobbies with Kie, mikal, Kylian with my lap time dude, and then if I drop down a few splits lots of streamers etc.

Hell naïf was going from the back so yes, being good at driving is needed, and im
Holding my own in A and mixed A+ lobbies.

My lap on Daily Race B was literally done in 5 minutes, I'm quite sure I can go quicker

I know but it’s your line in the sand

As I say if VR was ultimately the quickest way to race on any racing game / simulator every single alien would be doing it (Even more so in iracing with cockpit camera being forced) but it's not

If it’s the fastest way round I don’t know, I think it’s easier to cheese the angles in bumpercam. Is there an incentive to go VR? No. But ultimately it’s how virtual racing will go in a few years from now.

The point of of virtual racing is to replicate real racing and driving with a weird camera from the bumper or roof isn’t that. It’s ridge racer pretending you are in a different car.

Edit:

No comment on my clips both VR and Bumper cam. This is part of my problem, that hitting apexes and being aware are completely possible in VR, I checked my turn for those clips.

 

[TheNormsk]

@newmedia_dev @Tidgney

 

[Lord Protector]

@newmedia_dev you have to understand 99% of the people that got - or are trying to get - to one of these events don't do it because of enjoyment... after a while, practicing for hours daily how to cheese the game as much as you can becomes a chore and sort of an investment (I don't think a good one too). It's not important to them if they're getting the most realistic experience, or the best immersion.

It's also a very rational and pragmatic attitude.

 

[Tidgney]

Nope mate, practice is practice. You telling me maxpower misses more apexes with chase cam, or that bumper is better than hood cam.

Be rational dude, I absolutely appreciate you can go faster but that’s 2/10ths or 4/10ths

We are are not talking massive stuff. Let’s be really careful I’m not a top split driver or in the “gang” so being top 300 is more representative of most of us than world tour drivers.

I’m in lobbies with Kie, mikal, Kylian with my lap time dude, and then if I drop down a few splits lots of streamers etc.

Hell naïf was going from the back so yes, being good at driving is needed, and im
Holding my own in A and mixed A+ lobbies.

I know but it’s your line in the sand

If it’s the fastest way round I don’t know, I think it’s easier to cheese the angles in bumpercam. Is there an incentive to go VR? No. But ultimately it’s how virtual racing will go in a few years from now.

The point of of virtual racing is to replicate real racing and driving with a weird camera from the bumper or roof isn’t that. It’s ridge racer pretending you are in a different car.

Edit:

No comment on my clips both VR and Bumper cam. This is part of my problem, that hitting apexes and being aware are completely possible in VR, I checked my turn for those clips.

I'm not arguing around VR. Unless proven otherwise with real data, as in all top split drivers in multiple games using VR then I will stand by my opinion around it. VR is slower in a competitive environment vs other methods. Different camera angles do have an impact (I did a video on that ages ago that I've mentioned).



I'm being very rational, I realise you enjoy VR and that's brilliant, do enjoy it! I enjoy using it when I want to have fun in Gran Turismo! Some people will be faster with it because they don't like other camera angles, and that's good to but it doesn't mean it is the fastest way to drive/play Gran Turismo or any racing game. But it's the same reason most people use bumper / bonnet camera is that it's the easiest / best / quickest way to race. If you miss more apexes in a camera, or don't have as much information in a certain camera (Even bonnet vs bumper has an information issue) then in a competitive environment you are going to lose out on something. Chase cam has it's benefits like all the information about the car (You know every inch of where it is) so it's very similar to bonnet and bumper. But as I have said a few times I have never said somebody can't be fast with it, I'm saying the fastest way to play the game is not in VR. VR has been out for years on PC but we still don't see any jump to it from top split drivers for the same reason so I don't expect any shift in that dynamic due to the advantage of camera angles. If anything iRacing should have everyone in VR if it was the best as you are stuck in the cockpit camera but you don't including the real world racing drivers, and most normally move the camera forward a lot to maximise the viewing angle so they don't miss apexes and can see more of the car. You may think otherwise and you are entitled to that opinion but my opinion on that won't change (Without real world data saying this) and I'm not trying to change your opinion just answering your Tagged posts to me.

@newmedia_dev you have to understand 99% of the people that got - or are trying to get - to one of these events don't do it because of enjoyment... after a while, practicing for hours daily how to cheese the game as much as you can becomes a chore and sort of an investment (I don't think a good one too). It's not important to them if they're getting the most realistic experience, or the best immersion.

It's also very a rational and pragmatic attitude.

It's this plus there is some enjoyment trying to get to the events. Nothing beats getting rank 1 on a leaderboard sometimes after some intense laps but if you are after the ultimate lap I'd rather reduce all risks of missing apexes and nailing the perfect line in the best camera angle for me to do that, whichever camera angle that is in any of the racing games I play.

 

[Chaos Racing]

Yeah the more you use VR the faster you go, takes quite a bit of time and a bit more effort i find but i have beat every single time i put down in 2D

 

[VR-SORN]

A driver using a telescope will never be as fast a driver using a pair of binoculars.

 

[Nebuc72]

I think the skill ceiling is higher on flat but the skill floor is lower in VR.

It's easier to get faster in VR through the extra awareness of the cars behaviour etc. but you'll hit a wall where you're limited by 'reality' wherein flat becomes faster due to the extra vision granted by perspectives you aren't able to replicate in VR (or real life).

I think that wall is really high up though. Like you'd have to be consistently setting top 100 times, if not higher, to need the edge that flat could give you.

 

[Famine]

VR has been out for years on PC but we still don't see any jump to it from top split drivers

As you know, I (have to) watch an awful lot of racing esports and I can only recall one driver in any of them habitually using VR. That said, I can't remember her name for the life of me, but she's an ACC racer.

 

[MetalApe]

I really would like to see the results of a proper expirement to see how well drivers of varying experience and ability can drive in VR vs Flat screen.

Clearly we have quite few seriously fast drivers on Flat Screen. Whereas for me personally, I never got on with flat screen, there was always too much of a disconnect for me to even get into seriously playing any driving game.

My theory is VR has the potential to massively increase the number of players involved in Sim Racing. I certainly wouldn't be here playing GT7 competively without it. The question is how many others are like me? How many are like @Tidgney who can race extremely well on a Flat Screen?

 

[Fezzik]

Yeah the more you use VR the faster you go, takes quite a bit of time and a bit more effort i find but i have beat every single time i put down in 2D

The counter argument would be that putting in time and effort, ie training, would make you better & faster regardless of using VR or not.

 

[BobF]

The counter argument would be that putting in time and effort, ie training, would make you better & faster regardless of using VR or not.

IMO, the finer control offered by wheel/pedals offers greater improvement than VR, however, for ME VR offers improvement in and of itself in awareness of cars around me. It also gives a better sense of terrain.

 

[Fezzik]

IMO, the finer control offered by wheel/pedals offers greater improvement than VR, however, for ME VR offers improvement in and of itself in awareness of cars around me. It also gives a better sense of terrain.

Yeah, when I used the VR my situational awareness in close battles was much better. I’m using the bonnet/roof cam at the moment - as pointed out here I can see the apexes much better but I can’t see what’s right alongside me.

Strengths and weaknesses for everything. I don’t think there’s one superior option, just find what works best for you and most importantly what’s most enjoyable.

 

[05XR8]

IMO, the finer control offered by wheel/pedals offers greater improvement than VR, however, for ME VR offers improvement in and of itself in awareness of cars around me. It also gives a better sense of terrain.

I feel that's the core of VR for GT7. As Tigney says, flat screen is mainly for the fastest in that upper class of fast players. It makes sense to want to see more of the road beneath to get that best view to use all the road.
VR is as the name states, to get the most realistic engagement a game can offer.

 

[newmedia_dev]

I feel that's the core of VR for GT7. As Tigney says, flat screen is mainly for the fastest in that upper class of fast players. It makes sense to want to see more of the road beneath to get that best view to use all the road.
VR is as the name states, to get the most realistic engagement a game can offer.

It’s really interesting when you think about it. I think all these guys would be fast with whatever setup the same way real world racing drivers don’t get to pick their camera they just get to pick the size of the letterbox they look through and go as fast as they can.

So you have this situation where none of the fast peeps would want to change away from what they know which is a very solid point.

Then you have all of these 99.8% that can go faster in VR because the natural camera rationalises the inputs to a more real world experience.

I don’t think I’m right and Tidgney is wrong just that 2 things can be true at the same time, you can be fast with whatever setup and control scheme.

I’m 239th globally for race B this week in VR top 200 for A and haven’t checked C but probably still top 1000 so it’s not like VR is some sort of hindrance when I’ve been playing this game for nearly 30 years in bumper cam.

But I will say as an avid race fan all my life I’d rather watch VR/Cockpit or Tele cam racing than bumper cam especially is made up theoretical cars like the x19 etc.

 

[Revengel]

Let me lead off with this: Everyone should choose what each individual prefers. I fully support @Tidgney going with a Flat Screen for sport mode. I also fully support @newmedia_dev for going full VR . . . same as I do. For the record, I'm a better driver now in VR than I have ever been on a flat screen . . . I think. Hard to compare my best days on Gran Turismo thru Gran Turismo 4 with what I do now but I digress . . .


There is an angle I think is not represented here in the comparison.

Spoiler: Boring and Long frame of reference speak

I started playing driving games - note the terminology - starting with Driver on the Commodore Pet computer. From Iron Man Off-Roader to Pole Position, from Hard Drivin' to Out Run . . . I played as many as I could. Got to Gran Turismo and it was what I was chasing since the days of wishing for a Mach 5 (see avatar.)

One thing I've done since I could play a game with a wheel - Out Run and likely Pole Position (and Sega GT) come to mind - was try to use my automotive knowledge and skills and translate them to the game I was playing at the time. But for all of these things, I was tricking my brain into thinking it was controlling a car/truck/boat/whatever rather than playing a game.

This continued with Gran Turismo on my 13" RCA Color TV.

Just sticking with Gran Turismo up to and including Gran Turismo 7, I've played on a flat screen. I was used to playing a game on a flat screen and - much like Marvel vs. Capcom 2 - I was optimized for it.

But something else was going on concurrently.

Charlotte, named for the character from Samurai Showdown, is my 1986 VF500F Interceptor. I put 40k miles on her in under two years. She's the greatest dance partner I've ever had. I knew what to expect from her and she knew what to expect from me. The fact I could catch and drop GSXr 750s and even 1000cc sport bikes showed just how in tune we were with one another.

I'm going somewhere with this. Trust me.

What was happening is I was able to apply my real-world knowledge and reflexes along with seat time to uphold a phenomenal partnership with the road. By understanding just how to get 95% out of Charlotte on the road/track/etc. vs. most folks who weren't getting 20% was evident.

I could apply my natural ability to control a bike on tarmac.


Enter Gran Turismo 7 in VR.

I spent the first 25 years playing this series on a flat screen. Every driving game was played on a flat(ish) screen. Now was my chance to apply a more natural feel, and I've only had two years of experience in VR. All of that is in Gran Turismo 7.

After acclimating to VR (again, thank you GT Planet) I was finally able to bring my natural talent to bear in a safe environment. While I don't own the 4 wheel equivalent to a 500cc race bike, I can still apply some bits (safely) on the road. In GT7 I can safely bring all of that out. My times and results are definitely better now then they were pre-VR. The current GTWS also backs that up for me as a driver.

Spoiler: My Hot Take

If a person has spent his/her lifetime perfecting how to approach a game, a flat screen will always be superior for that player.

On the other hand, if they have always been attuned to driving/racing a real car, then VR (once acclimated to the experience) will be the best for that driver.

Here's some data for you:

In GT Sport, there was the Lewis Hamilton challenge. There are a few on these forums who beat his time set in Gran Turismo.

Pretty sure none of them are as good at the game as Miyazono. Add Lewis Hamilton and any F-1 champion to that list.

I guarantee none of players who finished ahead of Hamilton's time are as good as Hamilton if put behind the wheel of any F-1, F-2, F-E, etc. on a physical track. Add any Gran Turismo World Champion to that list.

TL;DR: it's not the method (flat screen or VR) it's the player or the driver.

Granted, that's just my opinion.

 

[GBO Possum]

Messing around with VR, I made a couple of experimental videos. Adding organ music would probably be helpful...





Two links above ⬆️

The detail in the Gull Wing 300SL is amazing

 

[BobF]

For view adjustment, I've been leaning in, slouching during the initial sitting play area setup with great success. The position stays where I want it from race to race without need for adjusting at each race start.

YMMV

 

[Revengel]

Just wanted to update folks on this thread about my continued experience with the app GT Race Engineer.

Spoiler: Previously, on X-Men . . .

For those who are unfamiliar/don't recall, it's a free app that's currently in open beta for Android devices that has a person telling you things like lap times, fuel percentage, current place, cold/hot/ideal tire temp status, etc.

As it reads the telemetry data from your PS5, you must have your device and the PS5 on the same network. In order to hear the person from your phone while playing Gran Turismo, you have a couple-few options. The one I've used the most is using my PlayStation Pule Elite headset which can connect via BT to your PS5 and phone simultaneously.

However there are other options, the most common one being inserting an earbud that's connected to your phone in one ear and have your headphones over your ears connected to the PS5.

Now that you're caught up, here's what I've tried this past weekend . . . and it worked like a charm.

Spoiler: Headphone Options

Using the earbuds that come with the PSVR2, I used a set of large over-the-ear headphones that were attached to my phone. I tried this because every now-and-then my Elites would disconnect mid race and I'd have to reach out to unplug/replug the dongle blindly, pretending I'm Matt Murdock (#DareDevil.) The earbuds never disconnect; they're hard-wired to the PSVR2.

An added bonus I have with these (and also the Pulse Elites) is they block out additional light from behind my head. I put these over the PSVR2 since with a good seal, you get great base sound out of the standard headset. With ear buds, your milage may vary. Previously, I put my Elites underneath the PSVR2 to boost the base of the game. That's not an issue for me anymore.

I know that was long, but I hoped to share this option with folks.

Here's what it does, if you're curious:

Spoiler: Current Features of GTRE

The developer has continued to update the app once a week, adding new features and correcting bugs that are reported on his discord. So far here's what we have,:

• Starting Position
• Position in Real Time
• Position on Lap
• Lap Time & Lap Time difference (love this!)
• Current Lap & Laps Remaining
• Cold/Warm/Hot Tires
• Low Fuel, Refuled, Fuel Percentage
• Fuel Duration Estimation (again, LOVE)
• Lap Time Average on Pit
• Encourage on Pit

I have these all activated; you can pick-and-choose which of these you want. There are other things planned as well. I genuinely enjoy having them all working and feeding me information.

In my opinion, this is the best thing for VR if you want to drive without the HUD. While it doesn't give you everything (delta to other drivers, who came in for a pit, radar, incoming weather, etc.) I find it almost as helpful as my Buttkicker run by SimHub when I'm on the track. I can drive without it, but it's far better with it.

Hope it helps those who are interested,

Revengel

 

[RS60NR]

For view adjustment, I've been leaning in, slouching during the initial sitting play area setup with great success. The position stays where I want it from race to race without need for adjusting at each race start.

YMMV

Yes! doh so obvious - lean in during the initial seating area adjustment - aim for the center of the circle and no need to adjust each car each race, as it sets the global postion - thx!!

 

[Abyss1]

Looking to jump in this weekend, its been several months since playing GT7 on the PSVR2...long story short needed a new rig and it took 7 months to make a decision. Sort of excited to see all the new updates since Aug 2024

 

[BWX]

For view adjustment, I've been leaning in, slouching during the initial sitting play area setup with great success. The position stays where I want it from race to race without need for adjusting at each race start.

YMMV

Not sure if I ever mentioned it in here but I've been doing that for a while- if i remember to do it, and it seems to work well. Good tip.

 

[sonnyboychris]

This VR vs flat debate reminds me of FPS games where you have a mixed environment of k/m & controller users and players utilizing different field of views...

If GT7 Sport was a level playing field (VR only), the current top split drivers would still be top split drivers. But that isn't the case, the game offers different views that offer diff advantages. Right now, pancake players have some advantages that make playing the game more efficient and thus faster. That in no way discredits the VR mode.

Personally, I'd love for Sport mode to allow VR players stipulate that they only want to play with other VR users. It'd make for a level playing field and better racing for us VR users.

 

[Abyss1]

This VR vs flat debate reminds me of FPS games where you have a mixed environment of k/m & controller users and players utilizing different field of views...

If GT7 Sport was a level playing field (VR only), the current top split drivers would still be top split drivers. But that isn't the case, the game offers different views that offer diff advantages. Right now, pancake players have some advantages that make playing the game more efficient and thus faster. That in no way discredits the VR mode.

Personally, I'd love for Sport mode to allow VR players stipulate that they only want to play with other VR users. It'd make for a level playing field and better racing for us VR users.

Just went back and saw all the comments on this...and I always thought of the GT series as Simcade games....not so much a real driving simulation...so I was never that keen on my lap times or improving driving lines, etc. Honestly the game series always had the OG Fast and Furious 10 sec car vibe

 

[Revengel]

If GT7 Sport was a level playing field (VR only), the current top split drivers would still be top split drivers.

I have a different view on this. I suspect some of the top split folks would be there, but most would be names that - while we may see them on some of the leaderboards - are generally speaking not top split.

My view is based on optimization. Those who have optimized (over time) for a VR or physical track will have an inherent advantage over those who have (over the same time) optimized for a flat screen.

I'm not, nor have I ever been, a top split driver. But even comparing my time with the TPRA, I'm a faster driver in Gran Turismo 7 than I ever was in this game from GT 5 Prologue through GT Sport.

But that isn't the case, the game offers different views that offer diff advantages. Right now, pancake players have some advantages that make playing the game more efficient and thus faster. That in no way discredits the VR mode.

Solid point. I agree for the most part; there are definitely advantages to flat screen play in GT7 just in the information alone . . .

Personally, I'd love for Sport mode to allow VR players stipulate that they only want to play with other VR users. It'd make for a level playing field and better racing for us VR users.

I'd love for there to be something similar: VR only division (but there isn't a large enough player base for that currently), a flat screen only division and an open division that has the best of both. Have the top 8 from each compete head to head in a series.

I can dream . . .

 

[newmedia_dev]

Just went back and saw all the comments on this...and I always thought of the GT series as Simcade games....not so much a real driving simulation...so I was never that keen on my lap times or improving driving lines, etc. Honestly the game series always had the OG Fast and Furious 10 sec car vibe

I think this is an interesting part of VR for the game, while the actual mechanics remain the same (sim/arcade whatever, that isn’t actually what matters) the way you go about driving completely changes. The dynamic of your inputs now appear in context to the box you are virtually sitting in.

Depth perception is literally how we live our lives etc.

I’d imagine that there are lots of people who think they drive well on bumper cam (for example) who when put in VR would have a very different view of how they actually do drive.

It’s quite interesting that the majority of people are initially (anecdotally) slower in VR but then become quicker than their previous view used.

The offset cockpit cam in 2d messes with your head! It’s like one of the bikes that steers in the opposite direction

 

[sonnyboychris]

I'd love for there to be something similar: VR only division (but there isn't a large enough player base for that currently), a flat screen only division and an open division that has the best of both. Have the top 8 from each compete head to head in a series.

A simple filter would suffice. If enough folks aren't online to fill a lobby, we could always remove the filter and play with pancake users.

 

[newmedia_dev]

A simple filter would suffice. If enough folks aren't online to fill a lobby, we could always remove the filter and play with pancake users.

Personally I don’t care what other players use view or peripheral wise that’s on them, I can only use my own stuff so they do them and I’ll focus on doing me.

I do think universally the HUDs should be customizable.

Why does bumper cam get a rear view but you can’t see the corners of the car? How come you can’t have a rear view in hood/roof cam? Why can’t you see a position list or at least a track map in VR?

Basically not one view is optimum and I genuinely don’t understand why some of the above things aren’t doable.

They have to be very deliberate design and gameplay choices which in and of itself is curious.

 

[Revengel]

A simple filter would suffice. If enough folks aren't online to fill a lobby, we could always remove the filter and play with pancake users.

I was thinking in terms of a championship.

A simple filter would be great for just casual play, but not required. Right now we all play in the same sandbox.

A championship where the finals are the top X of flat screen drivers vs. the top Y of VR drivers would be fun in my opinion.

It would also give folks more reason to go the VR route if for no other reason you have fewer competitors to go against.

Again, it's a dream.

 

[sonnyboychris]

Personally I don’t care what other players use view or peripheral wise that’s on them, I can only use my own stuff so they do them and I’ll focus on doing me.

That's fine that you don't care and will focus on "doing you". But I think you're missing the point.

For example. In a room of VR only users, they all have to check their blind spots and use their mirrors. VR users won't have the luxury of seeing exactly where another car is positioned on their side (depending on the view) on a flatscreen without having to divert their eyes, or even turn their head.

In no way shape or form does that prohibit anyone from "doing them". Having a lobby where all players are utilizing the same tools and playing under the same conditions creates a level playing field that a majority of players prefer.