GTA 5 Controversy in Australia

[Famine]

You one of very few parents that do the right thing.

Not really, I was just being a git because the child was annoying.

I think the chief difference between me and the parents who go into a games shop with their child and buys the game the child wants is that I'm a gamer. There's loads of us though - we've grown up with games - so we've played them and we've played them first. We exercise our own judgement about how suitable a game is for our child, through knowing the game and knowing the child, rather than blithely assuming that games are things for kids and any one of them is suitable.

My eldest is on here though and you can ask her what games I let her play. She's 13 and the most recent age-limited games she's played here are Skyrim, Assassin's Creed (I forget which one) and Fallout 3. That would qualify me as a monster to the exact sort of parent that shouldn't buy games for their kids.

 

[Dotini]

I did not grow up with games like GTA. When I was very young in the early '50's, there wasn't even any television available to us. As a youth, I spent much of my spare time reading, building and listening to crystal radio, car and airplane model making, bicycling, baseball, and later chess. Things changed when cars and girls came available. In middle age I played games like AOE II and GT4, which I thought had some strategy or eye-hand coordination merit.

Culture has changed in many ways in the last 60 years. The games we play, the roles we are expected to play in society, the opportunities available to us; there have been so many changes its impossible to begin or end the discussion of it.

I think these games we play and our ongoing reaction to them are a like a dim mirror reflecting changes in our culture.

 

[Liquid]

I think these games we play and our ongoing reaction to them are a like a dim mirror reflecting changes in our culture.

Funnily enough Grand Theft Auto, especially from GTA IV (2008) onwards, has become exactly a dark and highly exaggerated mirror and social commentary of current attitudes and trends, and not just a crime simulator.

 

[Tornado]

I in fact was lucky enough to play Grand Theft Auto 2 (topdown 2D) at the age of 8 and Grand Theft Auto III at the age of 11 (full 3D) but haven't turned out to be a dangerous psychopath at all. Good parenting paid off; I knew my right from wrong.

On the other hand, I started with GTA in 1998 and then I did grow up to be a dangerous psychopath.

 

[Brend]

I'm sure Anita Sarkeesisnake will be dancing on the rooftops.

 

[Joel]

It sucked when the feminists got rid of all the violence and hot girls from movies.

 

[Famine]

I did not grow up with games like GTA. When I was very young in the early '50's, there wasn't even any television available to us. As a youth, I spent much of my spare time reading, building and listening to crystal radio, car and airplane model making, bicycling, baseball, and later chess. Things changed when cars and girls came available. In middle age I played games like AOE II and GT4, which I thought had some strategy or eye-hand coordination merit.

Culture has changed in many ways in the last 60 years. The games we play, the roles we are expected to play in society, the opportunities available to us; there have been so many changes its impossible to begin or end the discussion of it.

I think these games we play and our ongoing reaction to them are a like a dim mirror reflecting changes in our culture.

In many ways we should be aiming to recapture the culture of the 50s and 60s, particularly the attitudes our societies held towards women and blacks. Such enlightened times.


Wait, what?

 

[Joel]

I also find it interesting to harken back to the times when we didn't have violence and abuse in our entertainment media but it existed in real life at dramatically higher rates. Call me crazy but GTA 5 murder is preferable to actual murder.

 

[Lucas]

In many ways we should be aiming to recapture the culture of the 50s and 60s, particularly the attitudes our societies held towards women and blacks. Such enlightened times.


Wait, what?

I don't think that's what he meant. Just that what we are getting (GTA 5) is according to the times we are living in.

 

[Joel]

I don't think that's what he meant. Just that what we are getting (GTA 5) is according to the times we are living in.

Which is presented as a negative comparison to the good old days, a simpler time before preteens were killing virtual hookers.

It's not that simple, wholesome family entertainment and kids reading and playing outside didn't exist in a cultural vacuum while women existed to bear children and cook and blacks couldn't even drink out of the same water fountains as whites.

 

[Lucas]

Which is presented as a negative comparison to the good old days, a simpler time before preteens were killing virtual hookers.

Once again, I don't think that's what he meant. In the simplest of terms, I took it as a fancy way to say "deal with it, Australia".

 

[prisonermonkeys]

If it is true that is was pulled because of the "depictions of violence against women" then that is a disgusting double standard. Why aren't these people upset about the thousands of men you murder in the game, or the man that you're forced to torture?

Because violence against women - especially domestic violence - is a huge societal issue in Australia right now. One woman is murdered each week by her domestic partner, and it's getting to the point where we need a Royal Commission into domestic violence.

I'm not defending the campaign by any means. It's well-intentioned, but completely misguided. For one, the game has been out for a year. But more importantly, the petition claims that the game contains acts of sexualised violence, which is patently untrue because the Office of Film and Literature Classification will refuse classification to any video game that contains depictions of sexualised violence. Only two women die in scripted events in the game - one because she panicks and runs into a dangerous situation, and the other is shown to be armed and could reasonably be described as being killed in self-defence. If any other women die during the game, it is the direct result of a conscious choice made by the player.

This entire episode amounts to slacktivism - trying to champion a cause with as little effort as possible. If violence against women is an issue we face, then the problem must be popular media. There hasn't been any attempt to address our values, attitudes or beliefs - just a highly-publicised stunt.

 

[Keef]

The government knows Australians have an innate criminal bent and therefore they are trying to cut it off at the pass.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Well recent study said so as well as most if not all of people ive met.

Also this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VideoGameCrueltyPotential

With the best will in the world... I'm not sure what on Earth that page is saying, I didn't see the part that supported what you said? Where should I be looking in there, and how good a source is it if it refers to players "acting like dicks"?

I also find it interesting to harken back to the times when we didn't have violence and abuse in our entertainment media but it existed in real life at dramatically higher rates. Call me crazy but GTA 5 murder is preferable to actual murder.

You'd have to go back a long way (History of Erotic Depictions, Wiki is an interesting read, not linked).

"Abuse" is an interesting definition, especially when you look at Roman history. Cor. Society's definitions change (and differ across contemporary regions). One thing that doesn't change is society's general desire to find an easy scapegoat to make them feel they've sorted another "problem" out.

That goes right through a history of naughty etchings, horror novels, "video nasties" and, now, video games. HiRes 3D VR... think of how that's going to be received.

 

[mistersafeway]

With the best will in the world... I'm not sure what on Earth that page is saying, I didn't see the part that supported what you said? Where should I be looking in there, and how good a source is it if it refers to players "acting like dicks"?

I think it was as an example of how other games have gone much further. I think the first thing on this page is an appropriate example. Oh, and probably the whole page. RPGs are fun.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I think it was as an example of how other games have gone much further. I think the first thing on this page is an appropriate example. Oh, and probably the whole page. RPGs are fun.

Ah okay, I certainly think there are other games (or media titles in general) that go much further. I've certainly seen films that have left me a lot more emotionally-wracked-or-terrified than any GTA ever has (apart from when my first GTA:SA disc scratched).

However, the claim being supported was this;

Lets look at the fact: Games reduce the number of crimes / offences.

 

[mistersafeway]

Ah okay, I certainly think there are other games (or media titles in general) that go much further. I've certainly seen films that have left me a lot more emotionally-wracked-or-terrified than any GTA ever has (apart from when my first GTA:SA disc scratched).

However, the claim being supported was this;

I thought it was a separate claim, maybe not. Still, torture of a woman as the first example on the first page I looked at, very appropriate to the topic.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I thought it was a separate claim, maybe not.

In full the claim was this;

Lets look at the fact:

Games reduce the number of crimes / offences. Previously people release their emotion by actually attacking/harrasing people. With games, which people know it just a virtual/not real world, people will choose to release there instead, making games a relief.

Of course, dont do this with children. They still dont have a educated enough about society. Thus the rating on games.

I found it to be an interesting viewpoint; there's less violence in society because those who want to perpetrate violence can now use GTA/Similar to "act out" rather than having to put their cape on and go out with their Murdering Bag.

While it's an interesting idea I wasn't sure it was a supportable claim. Simply showing that there are worse titles isn't really the same.

EDIT: And I got the GTA:SA disc "buffed" in the shop and it was okay... can't do that with a download!

 

[mistersafeway]

In full the claim was this;



I found it to be an interesting viewpoint; there's less violence in society because those who want to perpetrate violence can now use GTA/Similar to "act out" rather than having to put their cape on and go out with their Murdering Bag.

While it's an interesting idea I wasn't sure it was a supportable claim. Simply showing that there are worse titles isn't really the same.

EDIT: And I got the GTA:SA disc "buffed" in the shop and it was okay... can't do that with a download!

Found http://www.buffalo.edu/news/releases/2014/06/037.html articles about the study, I forgot it was actually an academic study.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Found two articles about the study, I forgot it was actually an academic study.

Thank you

First one appears empty though (University of Buffalo) and the second says;

Abstract Several researchers have demonstrated that the virtual behaviors committed in a video game can elicit feelings of guilt. Researchers have proposed that such guilt could have prosocial consequences. However, this proposition has not been supported with empirical evidence. The current study examined this issue in a 2×2 (video game play vs. real world recollection×guilt vs. control) experiment. Participants were first randomly assigned to either play a video game or complete a memory recall task. Next, participants were randomly assigned to either a guilt-inducing condition (game play as a terrorist/recall of acts that induce guilt) or a control condition (game play as a UN soldier/recall of acts that do not induce guilt). Results of the study indicate several important findings. First, the current results replicate previous research indicating that immoral virtual behaviors are capable of eliciting guilt. Second, and more importantly, the guilt elicited by game play led to intuition-specific increases in the salience of violated moral foundations. These findings indicate that committing "immoral" virtual behaviors in a video game can lead to increased moral sensitivity of the player. The potential prosocial benefits of these findings are discussed.

I'd certainly be interested to read more of it though, going to see if I can sort a copy out tomorrow

 

[mistersafeway]

Thank you

First one appears empty though (University of Buffalo) and the second says;



I'd certainly be interested to read more of it though, going to see if I can sort a copy out tomorrow

Yeah, unfortunately I couldn't find the full study, but at least it's got information about the authors and where it was published. I'd be interested in at least skimming it myself, just because I get annoyed with groups demanding games get pulled, and I'd like another reason to be.

Edit: it was a URL post error (thought you were being figurative about its emptiness ), tried fixing it, but apparently I'm doing it wrong or the site doesn't like that sort of edit. At least the untidy link should work.

Edit 2: apparently it still doesn't work, I'll try again.

 

[LeMansAid]

The government knows Australians have an innate criminal bent and therefore they are trying to cut it off at the pass.

Except for those of us from the only state established purely by non-convicts of course.

Games reduce the number of crimes / offences. Previously people release their emotion by actually attacking/harrasing people. With games, which people know it just a virtual/not real world, people will choose to release there instead, making games a relief.

Just know exactly what you're dealing in here with the rationale though. A mission luring children in to a van, driving them away and raping them ok for a future GTA? A good crime to reduce in real life I'd say. Sure, you could not oppose it's release but make a wallet statement and not buy it, but people doing that en masse may mean that future games will shy away from the inclusion of such crucially therapeutic material.

I'm not sure about exactly where a stand on it, but I'm not going to go thinking that virtually shooting a person in the face with a shotgun is a somehow significantly morally different to a virtual act of paedophilia.

 

[TenEightyOne]

...I'll try again.

That works, thank you

 

[mistersafeway]

Except for those of us from the only state established purely by non-convicts of course.


Just know exactly what you're dealing in here with the rationale though. A mission luring children in to a van, driving them away and raping them ok for a future GTA? A good crime to reduce in real life I'd say. Sure, you could not oppose it's release but make a wallet statement and not buy it, but people doing that en masse may mean that future games will shy away from the inclusion of such crucially therapeutic material.

I'm not sure about exactly where a stand on it, but I'm not going to go thinking that virtually shooting a person in the face with a shotgun is a somehow significantly morally different to a virtual act of paedophilia.

The facts being referred to in that FrzGT quote come from a study that only mentions physical violence and not sexual as far as I know, so you've gone off on an entirely different tangent. I think there'd be a number of problems with adding something like that to GTA, because I can't see simulating sexual violence being a way to do anything but increase it in real life, and raping children is likely to get it banned before it's even released. Also, I'm struggling to see any sort of link between shooting someone and child rape, maybe I'm just weird. Is it because they both happen to be crimes? 💡

 

[Roger the Horse]

Grand Theft Auto is misogynistic. If you disagree then you should ask the absolutely huge number of people who find its depiction of women offensive. This doesn't make it a bad game, in fact it's actually a very good one, but it's certainly a knock against it, and something that it deserves to be criticised for. Perhaps having it removed from shelves will raise awareness of the issues that people have with it, but I fear not. Instead I feel it will just cause a negative backlash. Censorship isn't a good way to get one's point across, as it is an antagonistic, and in this case, pointless (considering the length of time that the game has already been out) action.

What really needs to be addressed is the issue of misogyny in the gaming community. Female game developers and critics have been driven into hiding by death and rape threats from extremely insecure male gamers who can't cope with the notion that people from demographics other than their own might like and create video games.

There is also a need for greater education about and discussion domestic violence and abuse. The fact of the matter is that a terrifying large proportion of women (and a far smaller, but no less significant proportion of men) experience violence at the hands of a partner. Even more may suffer from emotional or verbal abuse. As this is treated (along with other serious issues such as cancer or child abuse) as a taboo subject in society awareness and precautions against it are severely lacking. Many women have little or no way of escaping from abuse. The situation is often even worse for men in such situations who are almost universally not believed at all or dismissed as needing to "man up".

It sucked when the feminists got rid of all the violence and hot girls from movies.

When did that happen? Unless you're being sarcastic, you clearly need to go out and watch some modern films. (And you're also lacking any understanding of what feminism is.)

 

[Joel]

When did that happen? Unless you're being sarcastic, you clearly need to go out and watch some modern films.

I miss the awesome movies like James Bond with cool guys and hot girls, or violent action movies like Die Hard. Sure is a shame that the feminists took those away.

(And you're also lacking any understanding of what feminism is.)

I think I understand it alright, thanks.

 

[Imari]

Grand Theft Auto is misogynistic.

Sure. It's misogynistic AND misandristic.

You have played the game, right? You're aware of all the nasty, messed up 🤬 that happens to males in the game? It sure wasn't a woman tied to a chair with a car battery attached to her nipples.

 

[Brend]

Grand Theft Auto is misogynistic.

No it's not, it 🤬 on everything. It doesn't have a mass prejudice agenda on belittling woman. It has one on belittling everything.

 

[The Bman]

^
The entire point game - minus some parts of the storyline - is supposed to be a satire of United States society.

 

[Roger the Horse]

I miss the awesome movies that they still make. Sure is a shame that the feminists took those away.

Seriously. Go to the cinema some time. They still make a lot of films with cool guys and hot girls. Some of them are terrible. Some of them are great. Nothing has changed in that regard.

Sure. It's misogynistic AND misandristic.

You have played the game, right? You're aware of all the nasty, messed up 🤬 that happens to males in the game? It sure wasn't a woman tied to a chair with a car battery attached to her nipples.

That's not misandry. That's just violence. If that was misandry then suddenly every time a white person has their identity stolen that would become racism. Misandry is saying that boys should be tough and play active rough sports rather than sit around doing knitting and baking even though they find knitting and baking far more enjoyable. Misandry is claiming that a man can't be sexually assaulted by a woman. Misandry is claiming that all men are inherently evil perverted rapists who need to be castrated.

Misandry is inextricably linked with misogyny. If something is misogynistic, it will almost certainly be misandrystic. But that doesn't mean that something can't be one thing more than another. The fact of the matter is that Grand Theft Auto is noted for its depiction of a highly male dominated world where women are little more than hookers to be murdered or WAGs who whinge about everything.

Of course, sadly, this is a reflection of society as a whole, and is intended primarily as satire, but sometimes the series slips over a line where it becomes unclear to some as to whether or not it is intended as satire, and some people take exception to this. Grand Theft Auto is not intentionally, wilfully misogynistic, but in some regards it comes across as that to many people, many of whom still love the game.

The trouble is that the game overly glamourises some of the things it tries to satire. The fact that there are no male prostitutes is both misogynistic and misandrystic, as it simultaneously suggests that women can be treated as sex objects but that men cannot. The fact that there is a benefit (sic) to murdering prostitutes is misogynistic, as there are no male prostitutes to murder, therefore suggesting that there is a benefit (sic) to killing some women that never applies to men.

As I say. I understand that it is intended as satire, but people still have the right to be offended if they find it offensive, and if they can provide reasoning as to why it is offensive, it becomes offensive in that respect, at least to that person.