- 4,487
- YorkshireLand
- SVTlover
Classic Italian design, great sounding engines, pop up headlights and a nice alternative to the other Italian cars of the era. SZ.
GTP Cool Wall: 1971-1992 De Tomaso Pantera
- Thread starter GranTurismo916
- 55 comments
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- 4,543
- Bay Area, CA
- Zenith113
Wrong.
There was a Luxury model with 250hp introduced in 1972. We are not polling that car. The standard Pantera that coexisted at the same time had at least 330hp (some say underrated, but let's go with the lowest reported number and give you the best shot) which is the same as what Ferrari and Lamborghini were putting out.
The 1971 (first) model with was clocked 0-60 in 5.5 seconds by Car and Driver. That’s was fast in ’71. That’s still pretty fast today.
Can you please explain your obvious bias against American cars and engines? At this point it's not even cherry picking data, you're straight up trying to deceive people.
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- 14,656
- The UK
- JASON_ROCKS1998
- JR98 GAMING
For it's time I really don't think the Pantera was slow for a car made in 1972.
1972 DeTomaso Pantera: 330HP
1971 Chevrolet Corvette LT1: 350HP
1970 Ferrari 365 GTB/4 Daytona: 350HP
1974 Lamborghini Countach LP400: 375HP
1973 Porsche 911 Carrera RS: 210HP
So, compared to other high end cars of the time the Pantera really isn't that slow, at least when comparing power from the engine.
1972 DeTomaso Pantera: 330HP
1971 Chevrolet Corvette LT1: 350HP
1970 Ferrari 365 GTB/4 Daytona: 350HP
1974 Lamborghini Countach LP400: 375HP
1973 Porsche 911 Carrera RS: 210HP
So, compared to other high end cars of the time the Pantera really isn't that slow, at least when comparing power from the engine.
Wiegert
Premium
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The simple supercar design of the earlier models almost subverts the sheer awesomeness of the name it was given. Understated and anonymous, until you fired it up.
The GTS seemed to be ahead of the game when it came to having a more brazen, almost 1980s edge. While the GT5/GT5-S just did the natural thing at the time and filled out in a not-entirely-tasteful-but-kind-of-acceptable fashion. Then the SI came along and basically mixed the two Vs to give us a rather nice-looking "Vector Atlantique".
On balance though, it's Sub Zero.
The GTS seemed to be ahead of the game when it came to having a more brazen, almost 1980s edge. While the GT5/GT5-S just did the natural thing at the time and filled out in a not-entirely-tasteful-but-kind-of-acceptable fashion. Then the SI came along and basically mixed the two Vs to give us a rather nice-looking "Vector Atlantique".
On balance though, it's Sub Zero.
Sage Ages
(Banned)
- 12,817
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That statement couldn't be any more broad.
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Sub-zero
- 4,543
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- Zenith113
- 29,612
- Bratvegas
- GTP_Liquid
@Zenith Corvette is an interesting analogy but I'd class the Pantera as a supercar. It is an extremely rare kind of supercar because as you and others have pointed out, this supercar actually, y'know... did stuff. It won the British GT championship as late as 1995 and probably raced for a few more years afterwards still. Which makes it all the more likeable for us nerds who like cars with racing pedigree.
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- SomePlayaDude
- 34,949
- Indian Falls, NY
- slashfan7964
The motor in this car originally was the "R" code 351 Cleveland. Now I know what you're all thinking; engine codes, that's not cool at all...and you'd be right, except there's a reason why this particular code is important. This is important for the fact that there were 4 different variations of the engine and 8 different factory tunes for it (yes, I'm not making that up); in short not all Cleveland engines were the same. This is why, to Ford guys, engines codes no one cares about are important to the value and performance of a car when the factory offeres 9 different engine options with 6 different tunes per engine. Most cars nowadays have one engine, with one, maybe two tunes offered.
The R code motor is the same one that was put in the Mustang Boss 351, the highest factory rated 351C at 330hp though given those specs is debatable how much power it actually have given the performance of both cars and their weight (both right around te same 0-60 even though the Pantera has the aerodynamic advantage). The R code was a seriously high compression, high revving screamer (6,500rpm redline that was capable of spinning 9,500 with a couple minor changes without really indulging into it; in fact this was the engine Ford chose to run in NASCAR after the Boss 429 was banned for that reason) that would give it to the fastest cars of it's day with less displacement. This was Fords way of testing the boundries of getting power per liter back then. 330 horsepower 5 horsepower shy of the factory rating for the legendary 428 Cobra Jet engine, and yet the engine displaced over a liter less. It was a step forward in the right direction, until inevitably the smog era occured. That's exactly why, at least in America, the engine lasted only 4 years. In fact the head design was so good that even in it's smog ridden forms, still made actually 20-25 horsepower more than their own 7.0L 429 and 7.5L 460.
What I'm getting at is this thing was stupid fast back then, when you consider that big block cars of the time were laying down the same, if not slower 0-60s with a advertised 100hp or more at the time. 5.5 and 5.8 seconds to 60, you sure as hell know you're moving. Sure we have cars today laying it down in sub 3 seconds, but even 0-60 in 7, you definitely can feel the acceleration. 5.5 to 60 is not slow. 5.5 to 60 will scare the hell out of most people on a backroad. The engine used here was special back then, and the internal specs prove it. If you've ever put an engine together, the C was used in basis, at least in head design, for a lot of later aftermarket and factory producion units. I've been told the original LS1 had roots back to the head design used on the Cleveland after GM guys worked for Ford and vice versa, and I can believe it.
What am I getting at here overall?
It's fast. It's fun. It's loud. It sounds good. It's pretty. It's a car for car people and those fortunate to have driven or owned one know that. This was the, for lack of a better word, "cheap" Lamborghini with a touch of American muscle for those who wanted the smooth looks and corner carving ability but the back breaking torque and sound of a muscle car.
It's sub zero because of this. It's everything a car guy could want stuffed into one package. A high horsepower engine, capable of high RPMs while still being smooth and reliable, but also having smooth European classic looks and handling. What's not to love?
The R code motor is the same one that was put in the Mustang Boss 351, the highest factory rated 351C at 330hp though given those specs is debatable how much power it actually have given the performance of both cars and their weight (both right around te same 0-60 even though the Pantera has the aerodynamic advantage). The R code was a seriously high compression, high revving screamer (6,500rpm redline that was capable of spinning 9,500 with a couple minor changes without really indulging into it; in fact this was the engine Ford chose to run in NASCAR after the Boss 429 was banned for that reason) that would give it to the fastest cars of it's day with less displacement. This was Fords way of testing the boundries of getting power per liter back then. 330 horsepower 5 horsepower shy of the factory rating for the legendary 428 Cobra Jet engine, and yet the engine displaced over a liter less. It was a step forward in the right direction, until inevitably the smog era occured. That's exactly why, at least in America, the engine lasted only 4 years. In fact the head design was so good that even in it's smog ridden forms, still made actually 20-25 horsepower more than their own 7.0L 429 and 7.5L 460.
What I'm getting at is this thing was stupid fast back then, when you consider that big block cars of the time were laying down the same, if not slower 0-60s with a advertised 100hp or more at the time. 5.5 and 5.8 seconds to 60, you sure as hell know you're moving. Sure we have cars today laying it down in sub 3 seconds, but even 0-60 in 7, you definitely can feel the acceleration. 5.5 to 60 is not slow. 5.5 to 60 will scare the hell out of most people on a backroad. The engine used here was special back then, and the internal specs prove it. If you've ever put an engine together, the C was used in basis, at least in head design, for a lot of later aftermarket and factory producion units. I've been told the original LS1 had roots back to the head design used on the Cleveland after GM guys worked for Ford and vice versa, and I can believe it.
What am I getting at here overall?
It's fast. It's fun. It's loud. It sounds good. It's pretty. It's a car for car people and those fortunate to have driven or owned one know that. This was the, for lack of a better word, "cheap" Lamborghini with a touch of American muscle for those who wanted the smooth looks and corner carving ability but the back breaking torque and sound of a muscle car.
It's sub zero because of this. It's everything a car guy could want stuffed into one package. A high horsepower engine, capable of high RPMs while still being smooth and reliable, but also having smooth European classic looks and handling. What's not to love?
- 34,949
- Indian Falls, NY
- slashfan7964
7,500rpm my bad. Typo (although a big one)
The bottom end is more than strong enough to hold it (I read somewhere it can take something like 180,000 psi per cylinder) and the heads can breathe it. The only thing it really needs is a better cam (lets face it the factory specs are laughable even on the R code motor) and a better oiling system; the stock system was inadequate even for a stock engine at 6,000rpm.
- 4,543
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- Zenith113
7,500rpm my bad. Typo (although a big one)
The bottom end is more than strong enough to hold it (I read somewhere it can take something like 180,000 psi per cylinder) and the heads can breathe it. The only thing it really needs is a better cam (lets face it the factory specs are laughable even on the R code motor) and a better oiling system; the stock system was inadequate even for a stock engine at 6,000rpm.
Although a better cam is an "easy" modification, it is not a minor modification.
It changes the idle quality, power band, fuel economy, heat output, and entire personality of the motor.
You get caught up on "oh it's so easy/simple to make more power out of these old V8 engines" and you are correct, it is easy and simple. This is partially due to the simplicity of the design and partially due to the huge aftermarket and knowledge base for OHV V8's. However, these easy mods are almost always trade-offs, so they need to be matched to the purpose.
Sure it's easy to throw in a new bumpstick and get 150hp with one simple mod, dood but those cases are usually extreme examples. For instance, A drag race engine where the fact that it makes no power under 5000RPM, gets 3 gallons per mile, needs the lifters need to be changed with the brake pads, and has an idle sound like a .50 caliber machine gun doesn't matter.
For 90% of drivers, an actual usable, reasonable cam swap will yield like 30% of that and there will still be noticeable drawbacks. So saying that "Oh give it a few simple mods and it will rev to oblivion and outrun a modern Ferrari in a straight line" is true, but it leaves out really, really big caveats and creates a car that can basically do nothing but outrun a modern Ferrari in a straight line.
I just did a cam and valve spring swap. It was easy. It's great, I love it, but this isn't like my friends BMW where the factory intake is junk and swapping it increases 30hp with no noticeable drawbacks. I'm happy that my V8's design is mastered to the point where there are no stupid errors like a bad intake or terrible head design. The modding is not about fixing the factory's dumb mistakes, it's about deciding what I want and what I'm willing to sacrifice. It's proper engineering. However phrasing this certain ways can be misleading or create an unfair comparison.
- 1,817
- Weirs Beach, NH
- RS73private
Elvis shot his when it wouldn't start, however, one of the coolest cars ever made.
- 23,880
- It/It
- GTP_TheCracker
Named after a naff 90's metal band. Seriously Uncool.
