GTP Cool Wall: 1977 Ford F250 4X4

[Parker]

Slash, I hope you're not a betting man because you'd owe a lot of people money.

Do you have any experience towing? I can tell you from a lot of first hand experience that a new F-150 (or any new half ton) will tow circles around a '70's Ford F-250 and you'll be a while lot more comfortable too. Of course if you buy the truck for mainly towing you'll never beat a diesel and then you'd have to get a 3/4 ton or bigger truck (as of now) but it seems most people who but 1/2 ton trucks rarely use them for towing.

 

[Slash]

Slash, I hope you're not a betting man because you'd owe a lot of people money.

Do you have any experience towing? I can tell you from a lot of first hand experience that a new F-150 (or any new half ton) will tow circles around a '70's Ford F-250 and you'll be a while lot more comfortable too. Of course if you buy the truck for mainly towing you'll never beat a diesel and then you'd have to get a 3/4 ton or bigger truck (as of now) but it seems most people who but 1/2 ton trucks rarely use them for towing.

Tow circles around it? That's quite the claim. I'd say the older one has a slight edge in the capacity regard, though I can't argue against comfort. But I don't buy a truck to be comfortable, and the new ones look like 🤬.

Won't beat a diesel? That depends what you are pulling. I've seen 460's out-pull diesels like it's nothing. Really all depends. You make good points though.

 

[Parker]

Tow circles around it? That's quite the claim. I'd say the older one has a slight edge in the capacity regard, though I can't argue against comfort. But I don't buy a truck to be comfortable, and the new ones look like 🤬.

Won't beat a diesel? That depends what you are pulling. I've seen 460's out-pull diesels like it's nothing. Really all depends. You make good points though.

I'm not talking about pulling, I'm talking about towing.

Slash, be honest, how much towing experience do you have? Any modern diesel, and by modern I mean the Dodge Cummins trucks ('89-current) the Ford Powerstrokes (The IDI engines were gutless pigs, of course early Powerstrokes kinda were too) and the Duramax engines, they will out tow any of the equivalent gasoline powered trucks. I'd put my truck up against a Ford, Chevy or Dodge of the same year and I guarantee it will out tow the gasoline counterpart.

When you're towing something heavy you want a lot of torque and you want it down low in the RPM range. This is why the Cummins engine tows so much better than the Powerstroke, Duramax or any gasoline engine. When my truck was stock ('91 Cummins D350) it only made 160hp, but it was churning out 400 ft/lbs of torque. It made that torque right off idle too whereas the V-8 diesels and gasoline engines make their power much higher in the RPM band and it isn't nearly as good for towing.

Again, I have thousands upon thousands of miles in all sorts of different combinations of engines and trucks and nothing tows as well as a Cummins Turbo Diesel.

 

[Slash]

I'm not talking about pulling, I'm talking about towing.

I meant towing when I said pulling. Not hooking chains. I should have been more direct, and for that, I'm sorry.

Slash, be honest, how much towing experience do you have?

I'll be honest, I don't have a lot of actual towing experience on a personal level, I'm talking based one what I've personally seen however. Not that it actually helps though.

Any modern diesel, and by modern I mean the Dodge Cummins trucks ('89-current) the Ford Powerstrokes (The IDI engines were gutless pigs, of course early Powerstrokes kinda were too) and the Duramax engines, they will out-tow any of the equivalent gasoline powered trucks. I'd put my truck up against a Ford, Chevy or Dodge of the same year and I guarantee it will out tow the gasoline counterpart.

The new ones will outpull old ones yes. But when running and old one against an old favorite gasser...I invite you to try out towing with a 460 then. Seeing as you made this claim:

When my truck was stock ('91 Cummins D350) it only made 160hp, but it was churning out 400 ft/lbs of torque. It made that torque right off idle too whereas the V-8 diesels and gasoline engines make their power much higher in the RPM band and it isn't nearly as good for towing.

The 460 makes nearly 100 more horsepower and just about as much torque in the later model trucks, rated at 245 horsepower and 390 lb-ft. Early 460s would walk circles around your Cummins, at a rated 360+ horsepower and over 500 lb-ft of torque. I get your point about low rpms though. That is definitely true, though torque was made as low as 2,200 rpm in some years. A fresh 460 will have no problem revving. 460's can make torque as low as idle. It's all in the camshaft. Old school diesels will get walked all over by a 460. New ones not so much. I'll give you that.

When you're towing something heavy you want a lot of torque and you want it down low in the RPM range.

If you want to talk low RPM's, I'll turbo a 300 I6 with a 4 barrel/302 injectors/headers on it before I take a diesel, considering how, in it's best year, and box truck motor, made almost 300 lb-ft @ 1,600 rpm N/A STOCK, and still get 15mpg. That's just me though. I'm not saying diesels are bad, I'm just saying there are gassers that can do just as well. This is why the 300 is hailed. The thing will tear a house down if you let it.

This is why the Cummins engine tows so much better than the Powerstroke, Duramax or any gasoline engine.

Cummins are good I'll give you that. Powerstrokes can be meh depending on the year; I'd rather take a gasser over an IDI. Duramax's are just 🤬. I wouldn't say better than any gas engine though.

Again, I have thousands upon thousands of miles in all sorts of different combinations of engines and trucks and nothing tows as well as a Cummins Turbo Diesel.

If that was really the case, you'd admit a 460 can just about match your '91 Cummins, since it's specs are ultimately better, save for 10 lb-ft at about 400 rpm higher in the late models. As I said earlier, a fresh old 1970 460 would walk circles around a 5.9L Cummins. You might have the better fuel efficiency though...maybe. You have to think...is that diesel really all that great if it has to be one liter bigger than a 300 I6 and turbo'd just to have the advantage in torque by about a 150 lb-ft and still have LESS horsepower than the 300's best year... Wonder what a turbo'd 300 would do to a stock 5.9L Cummin's....I'm reading here that a 6.5L diesel turbo system on a 300 I6 and 302 injectors would spank a turbo 5.9L in horsepower and have 30 more lb-ft in torque at the same RPM as the 5.9L Turbo was rated.

So tell me...are they really the end all?

 

[SlipZtrEm]

So tell me...are they really the end all?

You mean throwing a ton of aftermarket crap on an engine would make it perform better than another otherwise stock motor?

Also of note: the irony of someone who blindly favours giant displacement domestic engines bringing up the poor specific-output of another engine.

 

[Slash]

Who said its aftermarket? Factory parts off other motors.

Besides. Axle gears, trans gears and t case gears are everything. 460, NP435 trans, NP205 t case and 4.56 gears and I doubt much will outpull it. Oh I forgot that exact setup came in these....



By today's standard poor specific output might be true but most people dont need more than that. The 300 is regarded as one of the greatest engines ever built for it reliability, massive torque at a low rpm and ease of maintenance. There was a good reason it was used for so long. I have no respect for anyone that can't see that. This isn't directed you though, more in general.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Who said its aftermarket? Factory parts off other motors.

Okay, so a Frankenstein'd engine. It's still comparing apples to oranges - which is a typical approach when the comparison doesn't go in your favour.

By today's standard poor specific output might be true but most people dont need more than that.

That's missing the point entirely.

The 300 is regarded as one of the greatest engines ever built

...by fans of the 300.

 

[niky]

Who said its aftermarket? Factory parts off other motors.

It's a fair bet 99% of all car owners will never modify their engine or powertrain.

Never.

And for fleet managers, modification is the furthest thing from their mind. They won't be buying a hammer on which you can change the handle out for a longer one or the head out for a heavier one, they're going to be buying a hammer big enough for the job straight from the store. And in bulk.

 

[Slash]

@niky


You make a valid point.

...by fans of the 300.

By anyone who isn't an idiot.

 

[Parker]

@Slashfan you admitted you have no towing experience, I do. Just because something looks similar on paper means absolutely nothing in the real world. The Ford and Chevy trucks (Powerstroke and Duramax, not the IDI and 6.2 or 6.5 Chevy's) generally were rated for more horsepower and torque than the Cummins but stock for stock the CTD would outpull both of them.

Again, I have actual legitimate experience towing, with all sorts of engines, including your precious 460 (which had been rebuilt about 10K miles before we drove it) and it was nothing like a diesel. I'm positive the 460 would walk all over a '70's diesel (like the Mitsubishi diesel Dodge offered) but from personal experience it isn't close to a Cummins. Take your 460 loaded with a gross of around 22-23K and pull it up an 8% grade, so the same thing with a Cummins and you'll see the difference. trust me.

There is a reason all equipment and semis use diesel engines.

Also, if you want to modify vehicles then go ahead. All it takes is a screwdriver and about 10 minutes and my truck will have over 200rwhp and close to 500 ft/lb of torque. The 1st Gen Cummins engine was de-rated to be able to be put in the Dodge trucks otherwise it'd eat up transmissions and rear ends.

As far as economy, a gasoline engine isn't close either. My truck is a dually and still consistently gets 22-23mpg on the highway and 20mpg with mixed driving. As far as durability, there are plenty of Cummins trucks over 1 million miles, Cummins even has a club for it. My truck has right at 400K miles on it and I've done a water pump, voltage regulator, starter and alternator as well as the obvious wear items and it'll still outpull a fresh 460.

So by your own admission you have no experience with towing so you've never experienced the differences. You can argue all day long until you're blue in the face that you think a gasoline engine is better but, to steal from you a bit here, anyone who isn't an idiot knows diesels are superior, it is why they we're built.

 

[AlexandaHonda]

Who cares. The styling, the reliability, the power potential, the sound, the brute strength and load they can carry all make it sub zero worthy.

You cannot simply sit there and tell me if you saw one of those drive down the street all shiny and nice you wouldn't turn you're head and stare. It just doesn't happen.

People stared at Elephant man. He was still pretty ugly; just rare.

 

[XS]

@Slashfan why do you keep posting pictures of cars from Colorado? It's kinda freaky that I know exactly where all the pictures were taken, or I know the vehicle itself lol.

 

[Slash]

@Slashfan why do you keep posting pictures of cars from Colorado? It's kinda freaky that I know exactly where all the pictures were taken, or I know the vehicle itself lol.

Random's off Google

 

[SlipZtrEm]

By anyone who isn't an idiot.

While I appreciate the unsubtle insult, considering the only time I've ever heard that engine even mentioned in any light at all is your near-biblical reverence for them, you can understand why I remain unconvinced. It's understandably hard to find some "best engines of all-time" lists, but this one makes a lot of good calls on engines that have become icons.

 

[Slash]

While I appreciate the unsubtle insult, considering the only time I've ever heard that engine even mentioned in any light at all is your near-biblical reverence for them, you can understand why I remain unconvinced. It's understandably hard to find some "best engines of all-time" lists, but this one makes a lot of good calls on engines that have become icons.

I wasn't directly aiming that at you. As I said it was more of a general statement. C'mon Slip, you know me better than that

I can agree with a lot on the list, but I must say I was disappointed the 300 wasn't on there. The engine was almost too reliable.

I did a quick Google search just to get a an idea how it's hailed. Seems like it's generally regarded by the public as a fantastic engine.

https://www.google.com/#q=ford 300 i6 any good&safe=off


_________________


Also, very few vehicles have a factory crawl ratio as low as these or lower than the 1980s trucks.

@Slashfan you admitted you have no towing experience, I do. Just because something looks similar on paper means absolutely nothing in the real world. The Ford and Chevy trucks (Powerstroke and Duramax, not the IDI and 6.2 or 6.5 Chevy's) generally were rated for more horsepower and torque than the Cummins but stock for stock the CTD would outpull both of them.

Again, I have actual legitimate experience towing, with all sorts of engines, including your precious 460 (which had been rebuilt about 10K miles before we drove it) and it was nothing like a diesel. I'm positive the 460 would walk all over a '70's diesel (like the Mitsubishi diesel Dodge offered) but from personal experience it isn't close to a Cummins. Take your 460 loaded with a gross of around 22-23K and pull it up an 8% grade, so the same thing with a Cummins and you'll see the difference. trust me.

There is a reason all equipment and semis use diesel engines.

Also, if you want to modify vehicles then go ahead. All it takes is a screwdriver and about 10 minutes and my truck will have over 200rwhp and close to 500 ft/lb of torque. The 1st Gen Cummins engine was de-rated to be able to be put in the Dodge trucks otherwise it'd eat up transmissions and rear ends.

As far as economy, a gasoline engine isn't close either. My truck is a dually and still consistently gets 22-23mpg on the highway and 20mpg with mixed driving. As far as durability, there are plenty of Cummins trucks over 1 million miles, Cummins even has a club for it. My truck has right at 400K miles on it and I've done a water pump, voltage regulator, starter and alternator as well as the obvious wear items and it'll still outpull a fresh 460.

So by your own admission you have no experience with towing so you've never experienced the differences. You can argue all day long until you're blue in the face that you think a gasoline engine is better but, to steal from you a bit here, anyone who isn't an idiot knows diesels are superior, it is why they we're built.

You do also realize it comes down to gearing right?

Your 1991 Cummins has nothing on the crawl gears of these trucks or the '80s Fords paired with the factory setup of an NP435 manual transmission and either the NP205 or NP208 T-Case in low range combined with factory 5.13 gears or more, LET ALONE a 4WD dually.

This is especially true since, I don't believe yours is 4WD, meaning you don't have a low range gear set because of the lack of a t-case. If you have an automatic with, if you lucky, a direct trans to axle 4.10-4.56 gear set in your dually (likely), you won't stand a chance against an equipped 460 with the setup I provided, with crawling gears as much as 80:1 by the time you hit 1985. Hell, a 300 6 could probably pull more weight. At best, your total crawling gears is probably about a 24:1, which is pretty standard in the truck industry, and admittedly a bit better than my personal truck which you'd easily out-tow.

You can have that 500 lb-ft of torque, but it ain't going to do anything if you can get it to the ground much like these older ones could. It will be much less effective than that 390 lb-ft at 400rpm higher than the Cummins with a factory crawl ratio 4 times lower than yours at 90:1 with the NP435, 5.13 gears, and an NP208 on 235 tires. 4.56 gears will net around 80:1. The NP435 trans ratios where also MUCH lower in Fords than either GM or Dodge as well, the 435L is rare in anything but Ford. And that's only with the NP stuff. BW 1356 T-case has an even lower ratio than the NP208.

These are pretty cold hard facts as well, so there's nothing you can really argue against.

http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/np435.htm
http://www.ford-trucks.com/article/idx/0/022/article/Ford_Axle_Code_Chart_.html
http://www.4lo.com/calc/gearratio.php

You can even look here. No factory system from Dodge even comes close to touching Ford's crawl gears. The only one that has the advantage is the last one in the second generation trucks with the Getrag 6 speed and that's only because the transmission has 2 more gears than the NP435.

http://www.gearvendors.com/ddrive.html

You do however have the gas mileage advantage and always will however, I will give you that.

 

[Joel]

and admittedly a bit better than my personal truck which you'd easily out-tow.

Sure, given that you drive a van and "your" truck is rusting in a driveway, right?

 

[XS]

@Slashfan you admitted you have no towing experience, I do. Just because something looks similar on paper means absolutely nothing in the real world. The Ford and Chevy trucks (Powerstroke and Duramax, not the IDI and 6.2 or 6.5 Chevy's) generally were rated for more horsepower and torque than the Cummins but stock for stock the CTD would outpull both of them.

Again, I have actual legitimate experience towing, with all sorts of engines, including your precious 460 (which had been rebuilt about 10K miles before we drove it) and it was nothing like a diesel. I'm positive the 460 would walk all over a '70's diesel (like the Mitsubishi diesel Dodge offered) but from personal experience it isn't close to a Cummins. Take your 460 loaded with a gross of around 22-23K and pull it up an 8% grade, so the same thing with a Cummins and you'll see the difference. trust me.

There is a reason all equipment and semis use diesel engines.

Also, if you want to modify vehicles then go ahead. All it takes is a screwdriver and about 10 minutes and my truck will have over 200rwhp and close to 500 ft/lb of torque. The 1st Gen Cummins engine was de-rated to be able to be put in the Dodge trucks otherwise it'd eat up transmissions and rear ends.

As far as economy, a gasoline engine isn't close either. My truck is a dually and still consistently gets 22-23mpg on the highway and 20mpg with mixed driving. As far as durability, there are plenty of Cummins trucks over 1 million miles, Cummins even has a club for it. My truck has right at 400K miles on it and I've done a water pump, voltage regulator, starter and alternator as well as the obvious wear items and it'll still outpull a fresh 460.

So by your own admission you have no experience with towing so you've never experienced the differences. You can argue all day long until you're blue in the face that you think a gasoline engine is better but, to steal from you a bit here, anyone who isn't an idiot knows diesels are superior, it is why they we're built.

Sorry Slash, have to agree from experience. Owned both a Ram 2500 CTD and a Bronco with a 460 dropped in (my little touch of greatness lol) and the Dodge would not only out-tow anything I could throw at the Bronco but from a stop would eat the ol' 460 for lunch in a race. The Dodge was Diablo Sport chipped, but that only added about 30hp and 50lbs-ft of torque. Especially on the highway the Ram 2500 would pull like crazy, have amazing passing ability, and was nearly unaffected by elevation changes. I entered my '88 LX into a renown (for these parts) car show in the Rockies and towed it with the Bronco, she was struggling to get over some of those mountain passes where the next year the 2500 didn't even slow down and had petal to spare. From now on, any truck I buy is going to be diesel.

 

[Slash]

@Noob616

So what? It's not like I don't have replacement body for it. The body is bad, everything else is in good shape. I can't drive the truck right now due to the fact it isn't on the road. It was taken off until I put an e-brake cable on it, then it will be mechanically sound. Right now, it's not the priority in my house. That's taking care of my mother. When she gets better, we will be adding onto my garage so I can actually get the damn thing in there to work on it. When that'll be, I don't know. Just because the body is rusting doesn't mean the damn thing doesn't work the way it was designed to. Starts right up no problem.

Sorry Slash, have to agree from experience. Owned both a Ram 2500 CTD and a Bronco with a 460 dropped in (my little touch of greatness lol) and the Dodge would not only out-tow anything I could throw at the Bronco but from a stop would eat the ol' 460 for lunch in a race. The Dodge was Diablo Sport chipped, but that only added about 30hp and 50lbs-ft of torque. Especially on the highway the Ram 2500 would pull like crazy, have amazing passing ability, and was nearly unaffected by elevation changes. I entered my '88 LX into a renown (for these parts) car show in the Rockies and towed it with the Bronco, she was struggling to get over some of those mountain passes where the next year the 2500 didn't even slow down and had petal to spare. From now on, any truck I buy is going to be diesel.

Did you read what I said about gearing? The Bronco probably didn't heave the greatest gear set under it being a half ton, which wasn't meant to tow heavy loads unlike these. In fact I know it didn't have a good gear set in it. Hardly any of them do.

 

[XS]

The Dodge was at a disadvantage from a standstill, it was geared lower for highway travel. The Bronco was geared the best I could with what I had, turned 3,000 rpm at 65mph, right in the 460s peak powerband and it weighed about 1400 lbs less than the Ram 2500. On paper it should have been a rocket, but the Cummins inline torque-monster power plant just did better. It certainly wasn't just because of gearing. The turbo diesel is far less susceptible to elevation and fuel quality changes. On a level playing field with equal gearing I'd still bet on the diesel, but just by a hair. Also, the 460 is a different beast everyday. Literally everything affects how that plant runs: elevation, fuel quality, air temperature, even air quality. The diesel is more stable more of the time, with a better bottom-end architecture for building torque especially under load. Cummins love to be loaded and don't build peak power until they have a heavy load behind them. Gearing aside, a turbo diesel, especially inline, will build more usable power more reliably. Ford had better gearing, and the only reason I didn't buy a Powerstroke is because the Cummins is easier, and usually cheaper, to work on. Sorry but as great as the 460 is, and I certainly don't deny it isn't great, and as good as the F-series were geared, after owning a Cummins I'll never go back to gas power for a truck. Even if I buy a Ford truck, it'll still be turbo diesel.

 

[Parker]

@Slashfan again, why are you arguing? You've admitted you have zero towing experience and now you're claiming two people who have real world experience are wrong. A diesel will out tow a gasoline engine, simple as that. You can come up with all sorts of different gearing combinations, transmission combinations or anything else, the simple fact of the matter is real world experience beats paper experience.

As I said, I have thousands of towing miles behind me with all sorts of different combinations and I know what works and what doesn't. Until you have the same experience you simply cannot form an educated opinion. You are using your bias to shield you from the truth, I'm using first hand experience to back up my claims.

 

[Slash]

Gearing will always work on paper or not. That's the entire point

 

[Parker]

There is a lot more to it than gearing @Slashfan. Yes it certainly makes a difference, but just because your gasser is geared lower it doesn't mean it'll out tow a diesel.

Why do you think all the hotshotters all use diesels? Why do you think heavy equipment and semi trucks use diesels? They tow better, plain and simple.

 

[niky]

Gearing will always work on paper or not. That's the entire point

Gearing is truly an unappreciated art, but you can only get so far with it. By the time you're up to highway speeds, no amount of clever gearing will make up for a lack of power.

Given the right gear, you can tow any load with just 1 hp. You just won't be going very fast.

 

[Slash]

There is a lot more to it than gearing @Slashfan. Yes it certainly makes a difference, but just because your gasser is geared lower it doesn't mean it'll out tow a diesel.

Why do you think all the hotshotters all use diesels? Why do you think heavy equipment and semi trucks use diesels? They tow better, plain and simple.

Gearing is truly an unappreciated art, but you can only get so far with it. By the time you're up to highway speeds, no amount of clever gearing will make up for a lack of power.

Given the right gear, you can tow any load with just 1 hp. You just won't be going very fast.

But that brings me back to my original point. The specs are in favor of the gasser in this particular circumstance, though I certainly see your point. You are geared nearly 4 times lower (in the lowest range) with 100 more horsepower (certain years) only just less in torque. Once you get going, staying there shouldn't be tough, and getting going in the first place should be miles better than the comparable diesel in torque.

Torque and horsepower are just that, torque and horsepower. How it's made is irrelevant. The fact is, the lower range gears should in fact out tow something with a higher gear set, especially when the horsepower/torque specs are similar at a similar RPM. It should also do it more effectively and efficiently.

I do see where you guys are going with this though.