GTP Cool Wall: 1990-1996 Renault 19 16V

[Liquid]

So why do you guys think it's cool?

- It's Frenchness has appeal (not to be confused with French = automatic cool).

- Looks good.

- Spec or performance option of a 1990s small family car is generally cool, and it's a more avant garde/interesting choice than a Ford Sierra Sapphire or Vauxhall Astra GSi.

- Race winner in the BTCC, driven by Tim Harvey and Alain Menu, also makes it cool to me.

 

[Sage Ages]

I wouldn't think so if you voted cool. So why do you guys think it's cool? All we've been doing is discussing my opinion of it's uncoolness.

I just found it a bit more attractive then a usual sedan. It doesn't really strike me as beige, but I guess that's just me. I'm not too bothered about your opinion except that power seems to be a big deal. I just think that your rating is a bit unusual for your reasons.

 

[Leggy1]

higher horsepower will make you go faster.

You know this is wrong because of your experience of owning an F150.

Power is a smaller factor in top speed than overall drag, acceleration is mainly determined by power to weight (emphasis on the weight part). Yes, you did mention the other factors, but power is a not as important as you think.

And I voted cool because it's a smartly styled family saloon that at a glance seems fairly normal, but it has some parts that gives it a very purposeful look if you stop and look for a little longer. It is a practical family car that has plenty to offer for a keen driver. So for this case, I voted cool.

I vote on a case by case basis, with styling as the most important thing, not sweeping factors to determine coolness.

 

[JMoney]

- It's Frenchness has appeal (not to be confused with French = automatic cool).

- Looks good.

- Spec or performance option of a 1990s small family car is generally cool, and it's a more avant garde/interesting choice than a Ford Sierra Sapphire or Vauxhall Astra GSi.

- Race winner in the BTCC, driven by Tim Harvey and Alain Menu, also makes it cool to me.

I just found it a bit more attractive then a usual sedan. It doesn't really strike me as beige, but I guess that's just me. I'm not too bothered about your opinion except that power seems to be a big deal. I just think that your rating is a bit unusual for your reasons.

Alright, I can respect those reasons. We simply have different tastes, especially when it comes to appearance.

You know this is wrong because of your experience of owning an F150.

No, my truck definitely got faster (meaning acceleration, not top speed as the computer limits it) when I got a K&N Air filter, increasing the power. Sure, the truck is slower than most cars because it's heavy, but giving it more power will make it go faster.

I can't believe I keep having to explain this. More power does equal more speed. It's physics; power is force. More force will equal more velocity. That's a fact, not an opinion.

 

[Liquid]

More power does equal more speed.

But not when that extra power also means extra weight. It simply is not always as simple as more power = more speed.

Q: How much power would the Renault 19 16v need in order for it to be cool and appealing to you? And this question is under the strict assumption that it remains an FF and still looks the same.

 

[Sage Ages]

I can't believe I keep having to explain this. More power does equal more speed. It's physics; power is force. More force will equal more velocity. That's a fact, not an opinion.

We know this. We're just saying that it isn't always the case. You can do x with 200hp and you can do x with 100hp. Obviously there's a limit, but we're just making a point for now.

 

[Dagger311]

But not when that extra power also means extra weight. It simply is not always as simple as more power = more speed.

Q: How much power would the Renault 19 16v need in order for it to be cool and appealing to you? And this question is under the strict assumption that it remains an FF and still looks the same.

420.[color= white]Blaze it[/color]

 

[Liquid]

420.

Why that much?

Consider how much the car weighs with its current 134hp and the general chuckaboutability of European cars.

 

[Dagger311]

Why that much?

Consider how much the car weighs with its current 134hp and the general chuckaboutability of European cars.

You haven't heard of 420 blaze it? . Also, I put white text in that.

I'd be happy with it if it just looked a little better. The power is actually pretty high for a small 4 cylinder engine in a hot hatch.

 

[Sage Ages]

Why that much?

Consider how much the car weighs with its current 134hp and the general chuckaboutability of European cars.

Look up the meaning of 420, and then proceed to call him immature.

 

[huskeR32]

@JMoney689 I'm actually going to agree with you. To a point. You've said several times, and fairly clearly, that you don't think power is the end-all, be-all factor for coolness. And yet some comments have continued to roll in suggesting that you're still just drooling in the corner yelling about horsepower. So yes, there may be a little over-eagerness to jump on your comments here.

However, I've gotta say that you're kinda asking for it. You always start off with the absolute power-is-everything comment (or worse, comments)...

French. Powerless. FWD. Idiotic offset hood intake.

Seriously Uncool. Just another boring 90's sedan.

Yeah, I'll probably catch some flak for that.

If I could get a base Camry with about the same power or a sports V6 Camry with 50 more horsepower, the Renault 19 16V doesn't have lot of power at all.

Well other than the power, which would normally only bring a car down to uncool, the fact that it's FWD brings it down further. And the asymmetric hood. And the part that's it's French and it wasn't sold here.

...that are just begging to be shot down. The underlined parts certainly sound like you're putting power above everything else. You're definitely not making any explicit acknowledgements that the car has other factors (low weight, decent chassis, etc.) that would mitigate the "low" power level.

Then, people predictably (and rightly) call you on it. Only then do you try backpedaling and saying that of course you know power isn't everything, and that everyone is picking on you. You want it to stop? Then stop sounding so narrow-minded in your initial posts, stop pointing (over and over and over and over and over again) to over-generalized reasoning like "less than 200 hp isn't enough" or "FWD always sucks."

 

[Liquid]

You haven't heard of 420 blaze it?

Yes I have:

Look up the meaning of 420, and then proceed to call him immature.

That's why I looked over it.

I'd be happy with it if it just looked a little better. The power is actually pretty high for a small V4 engine in a hot hatch.

Constructive contribution, thank you.

 

[Slash]

Well I mean I've had some fun in cars with less than 200 horsepower and less than that in torque sure...but they are overwhelmingly gutless on whole scale IMO. 145hp? Punch it and I'm like thats it really

So even though they can be fun in corners and hooning and stuff...you gotta have some kind of torque or horsepower for me to think its at least cool; if its not heavy then thats a different story.

 

[Leggy1]

@JMoney689 I have done a little test. Nobody is arguing with you when you say more power = more speed. So, I used a tool for calculating wattage and speed for cyclists. I changed the numbers around to make them car relevant. Here is the first one, 400KW power, 20% drivetrain loss, total weight of 1075kg, cdA of 1 (total aero drag), rolling resistance of 0.015 cd equivalent. Top speed of 286km/h:

And then I entered some different numbers, half the power, half the weight and half the total drag. I left drivetrain loss at 20%. Top speed 287.9km/h:

So, as we can see, power is less important than drag and weight when it comes to determining top speed. It is a small margin but I haven't taken into account drivetrain loss differences (half that and it would be bigger) or gear ratios.

And of course the lighter 'car' would stop, corner and have faster responses.

So yes, power does matter, just not as much as weight and drag.

 

[Sage Ages]

I still don't get why speed is cool. I'm not saying that it means nothing, but we seem to be focusing on it a lot.

 

[Slash]

I still don't get why speed is cool. I'm not saying that it means nothing, but we seem to be focusing on it a lot.

People like to go fast. Cars that go fast are cool to a lot of people

 

[JMoney]

But not when that extra power also means extra weight. It simply is not always as simple as more power = more speed.

Q: How much power would the Renault 19 16v need in order for it to be cool and appealing to you? And this question is under the strict assumption that it remains an FF and still looks the same.

More power wouldn't be enough to make me say cool because of the other factors, but I would have said uncool rather than seriously uncool if it had 200-250. Anything beyond that would be too much for an FF, in my opinion. With more power and better looks, I'd have gone with meh, but the drivetrain would need to change for me to say cool.

 

[Cano]

Model Ts are cool.

 

[Korza]

More power wouldn't be enough to make me say cool because of the other factors, but I would have said uncool rather than seriously uncool if it had 200-250. Anything beyond that would be too much for an FF, in my opinion. With more power and better looks, I'd have gone with meh, but the drivetrain would need to change for me to say cool.

I still don't understand why FWD is perceived to be uncool. The claim that it's slower than RWD or AWd is a joke, my 230hp FWD Maxima has humiliated many RWD cars in the corners, including a TRD tuned GT86. Plus FWD is huge fun on twisty roads and that's coming from someone who's owned FWDs, RWDs and AWDs.

 

[ImaRobot]

People like to go fast. Cars that go fast are cool to a lot of people

whats confusing is how he brings up getting a Camry because it has more power, but what does it matter if its still slower than the car with less power?

 

[JMoney]

whats confusing is how he brings up getting a Camry because it has more power, but what does it matter if its still slower than the car with less power?

It's not confusing at all because, as I have stated before, I only brought up the Camry when someone said 134hp was a lot for a 90's FWD family sedan. The sports version of the Camry made 51hp more.

 

[Liquid]

But that is as irrelevant and skewed as the Chevrolet Lumina (small saloon) making more power than the Ford Escort (compact).

 

[Leggy1]

It's not confusing at all because, as I have stated before, I only brought up the Camry when someone said 134hp was a lot for a 90's FWD family sedan. The sports version of the Camry made 51hp more.

From a much larger engine, it has less hp/litre than the Renault. It is also slower, and no doubt much worse handling than the little 19. There is nothing good about the performance or power of the Camry in comparison to the Renault.

Yeah, I'll probably catch some flak for that.

Now that is something we can all agree on

 

[JMoney]

Yeah...this thread has 143 replies.

 

[Legro]

It's not confusing at all because, as I have stated before, I only brought up the Camry when someone said 134hp was a lot for a 90's FWD family sedan. The sports version of the Camry made 51hp more.

You are comparing two vehicles in totally different size-class. Camry sized Renault made 258hp at its top level.

 

[ImaRobot]

It's not confusing at all because, as I have stated before, I only brought up the Camry when someone said 134hp was a lot for a 90's FWD family sedan. The sports version of the Camry made 51hp more.

But what does it matter, you brought it up being more powerful. Yes it is, but what is that power accomplishing? The car is still slower. Other then being more powerful, why would it even be compared? Even with its "lack of power" its still able to perform better then a car that has more power. So yes, it is confusing why you even mentioned it.

 

[Slash]

whats confusing is how he brings up getting a Camry because it has more power, but what does it matter if its still slower than the car with less power?

That's when you take weight into consideration. Power is a bragging thing. People like to brag.

 

[Legro]

And bragging isn't cool.

 

[Slash]

And bragging isn't cool.

Why does it matter? That makes the person uncool, not the car.

 

[ImaRobot]

That's when you take weight into consideration. Power is a bragging thing. People like to brag.

If they brag about being more powerful, while not taking into consideration the weight of a vehicle, then that's ridiculous. Why brag about it being more powerful, just to be embarrassed?