GTP Cool Wall: 2007-2008 Acura TL Type-S

2007-2008 Acura TL


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Someone who knows how to deal with it might be able to get a fast time

Put an absolute idiot at the helm of a MINI Cooper S and have them drive against an absolute idiot at the helm of a Toyota 86, and have them race down a mountain of your choice for a million dollars, and I can guarantee you it's not the MINI driver you will be pulling out of the weeds first.

n00by. Everything I've ever read.

These are the words of someone who has never driven more than 6/10ths in his entire life.

But... thank you. That was a fairly entertaining interlude.
 
EDIT: Coming to think of it, I'm in the mood for kicking someone when he's down, specially when it serves as an excuse to post MOARRR FWD PORN GOODNESS!!! Behold Jean Ragnotti and his Clio Maxi!!!




+2 - One for the well-made point, and another for introducing me to that fantastic Clio Maxi/Ragnotti clip.

@White & Nerdy, so what you're trying to say is that only Lotus have ever made a good handling FWD car? How about Renault, Peugeot, Honda, Ford, Mini, Fiat, Lancia, VW etc etc?

Just because the front wheels are driven doesn't mean that the car has to understeer, what it does mean is that a car can potentially be set up to be incredibly pointy (i.e agile) whilst having the the added inherent stability of FWD. Case in point - that Ragnotti VT.

Now don't for a second mistake this as me stating that FWD is the best and any other way is crap, just that it certainly has its place in performance driving as much as any other solution.
 
it's good for nothing except endless understeer (right up until it flips out and sends you straight over the nearest cliff). I'm actually inclined to doubt those test results, unless the test driver who obtained them was someone like me, with fists of ham, feet of lead, and a generally n00by driving style. Everything I've ever read on the subject indicates that RWD has an innate advantage simply because of how physics work.

>Stocks soy milk at grocery store.
>Drives low powered, bad handling J Body.
>Talks like he is the end all to manliness despite being the epitome of all that is not.
>Talks about how all cars need to be fast and good handling, yet he can not drive himself.
>Fails to understand anything.


You're the inspiration for Idiocracy.
 
Apart from when you want a compact design, (Which is what 99% of road cars need.) then yes.

Because there is a pressing need for every econo car to have a 300hp V8 with RWD and be made of the lightest materials so that hen it crashes it just crumples up into a little ball.
What about a 300HP V8 with FWD that is so heavy it is seemingly carved from lead?
 
I'm actually inclined to doubt those test results

Here you are stocking shelves, when really, your true calling as an engineer for Lotus (you know, only the company with arguably one of the best track records of understanding the hard-to-pin-down idea of good handling) is being ignored. You figured it out; they lied.

And just because I can't not mention it: DC2 Integra, and Audi's FWD TT-RS.
 
(except when the back finally does let go, then you're dead)

...

it's good for nothing except endless understeer (right up until it flips out and sends you straight over the nearest cliff).

Have you ever gone sideways in a FWD car?

Because I have, and I'm still alive (and it was a lot of fun to boot).
 
Have you ever gone sideways in a FWD car?

Because I have, and I'm still alive (and it was a lot of fun to boot).

So much fun.:D

Rev match down a gear, trail brake to get some apex oversteer, and then roll on the gas the straighten it out to exit.
Plus dirt drops.

Oh, and you can pull back from nearly every snow slide with FWD, fun times last year.:dopey:

Obviously four-wheel drive. It's Mermaids that are FWD, which is why they're superior on wet roads.



Of course.
 
Have you ever gone sideways in a FWD car?

Because I have, and I'm still alive (and it was a lot of fun to boot).

Sort of. Not intentionally though. Turns out, what looks like a light dusting of dirt/gravel at a quick glance can actually be quite thick and viciously slippery. I tried to take a slightly-more-than-90-degree corner onto a freeway onramp at about 35 MPH and it went fine right up until I hit the dirt that'd gotten tracked onto a portion of the corner. Instinctively, not having time to remember what trailing-throttler oversteer is, I hit the brakes to try and bring rein things in, only for the car to whip sideways as you'd expect. Then the back end hit pavement and the car straightened out pretty easily due the low speed - not a moment too soon either.

Getting that car to go sideways normally would probably require rippping the parking brake from 50-60 MPH and I don't trust my skills or my car enough to pull that. My skills because I would most likely over- or undercorrect and my car because I don't know yet quite how it would react to such a maneuver - spin completely out of control? Just plow straight on like it does when you try it at lower speeds? Press X or Z twice? Given that I have a head full of racing theory but no practice and questionable reactions, I might cause any one of those outcomes unintentionally.

My source on FWD is Winning: A Race Driver's Handbook, specifically page 67 and its discussion of understeer vs. oversteer. Although there is an interesting point by Carroll Smith: for a car to accelerate while still turning, there must be excess tractive capacity to the drive wheels, so some anount of corner entry understeer must be present. Of course, that might also be the biggest weakness of FWD - between steeing and acceleration, the front tires tend to get overloaded.

But all that is really beside the point if you're not going to be actually racing. Lap times only matter if they pay the bills and all that. And that leads to the less-quantifiable advantage of RWD, is just plain fun. I love my car, but I'll never try to convince anyone that it handles well. I have no doubt it'd be better with a bit of power oversteer.

Speaking of, if you're ever in southcentral Alaska and want to see why FWD sucks, try taking Fishhook-Willow Road up the east side of Hatcher Pass. On the way down, pay attention at that really sharp hairpin corner with the 10MPH adivory speed sign. A FWD car will start to plow wide if you even look at the gas pedal on the exit from that corner.

Here you are stocking shelves, when really, your true calling as an engineer for Lotus (you know, only the company with arguably one of the best track records of understanding the hard-to-pin-down idea of good handling) is being ignored. You figured it out; they lied.

And just because I can't not mention it: DC2 Integra, and Audi's FWD TT-RS.

Well seriously, what possible way is there to bypass the physical limits of a car's tires and make a FWD car not understeer? 'Cause that's the major problem with FWD - the front tires just plain can't handle steering and acceleration at the same time unless the car is well below its cornering limits.
 
Well seriously, what possible way is there to bypass the physical limits of a car's tires and make a FWD car not understeer? 'Cause that's the major problem with FWD - the front tires just plain can't handle steering and acceleration at the same time unless the car is well below its cornering limits.
It's called a clever front differential. Cars have come a long way since your Sunbird....
 
My source on FWD is Winning: A Race Driver's Handbook

Which of coruse makes absolute sense when discussing a big, pillowy, 4-door sedan. Pure race car indeed.

You somehow manage to amaze me, even after all the crap I've seen you post in the last year or so.
 
Sort of. Not intentionally though. Turns out, what looks like a light dusting of dirt/gravel at a quick glance can actually be quite thick and viciously slippery. I tried to take a slightly-more-than-90-degree corner onto a freeway onramp at about 35 MPH and it went fine right up until I hit the dirt that'd gotten tracked onto a portion of the corner. Instinctively, not having time to remember what trailing-throttler oversteer is, I hit the brakes to try and bring rein things in, only for the car to whip sideways as you'd expect. Then the back end hit pavement and the car straightened out pretty easily due the low speed - not a moment too soon either.

How in the hell did you manage to lose control at 60KM/H?

Getting that car to go sideways normally would probably require rippping the parking brake from 50-60 MPH

At 60mph you don't even need to touch the gas or brakes and you can send a car sideways.
My car got a bit floaty coming off the highway at 70-ish.
 
How in the hell did you manage to lose control at 60KM/H?

Unexpected road conditions.

"Ah, shouldn't be too bad, there's not much dirt there. Cars take this corner every day, after all."

*suddenly heading straight for guardrail*

Then I reacted out of panic and it almost spun me around, though a momentary oversteer scare is preferable to ramming a guardrail head-on in my book. Lesson learned: always pay top attention to what's on the road, and don't take stupid chances when you don't have to. If you can't see pavement through the dirt, there's enough to crash you no matter how thin the coating looks. And yes I was an idiot, no sense pretending I wasn't.

At 60mph you don't even need to touch the gas or brakes and you can send a car sideways.
My car got a bit floaty coming off the highway at 70-ish.

Interesting choice of words there. Usually, if my car gets "floaty" I assume it's about to go up on two wheels and back off.

It has the sport suspention option, but all the suspension bits are literally original and are well past their best-by date. If I replaced those, and got it off the taller-than-stock snow tires (don't worry, they're studless), that might help, but I'd be just as likely to overdo the second part with epic extreme performance summer tires from Tire Rack and end up with truly scary snap oversteer or an actual rollover. Even with the worn suspension and snow tires that car corners well enough to treat most of those black-on-yellow speed advisory signs as dares. Makes me wonder if it got caught in GM's once-upon-a-time obsession with teh epic skidpad nawmberz at the expense of actual handling.

Other than that, just low-speed parking brake slides on snow & ice. Didn't usually work very well but once I managed to nail a perfect opposite lock entering the parking lot at work.
 
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Interesting choice of words there. Usually, if my car gets "floaty" I assume it's about to go up on two wheels and back off.

It gets "floaty" when it's just at the point of oversteer and I have to make many small adjustments to keep it in check.
Only happened because I was just coasting into the corner instead of braking or accelerating.

You will never flip a car like that unless you hit something, and a large deal of throttle will fix the oversteer unless you hold the counter too long.
 
Who knows. The previous owner said she almost flipped it once, but who knows. Apparently what happened was, she was driving along, window down and papers on the front seat, when some of the papers suddenly got caught by the air and flew into her face. By the time she could see again the car was aimed for the ditch. One panicked jerk of the wheel later, the car had temporarly motorcycle status. Repeated overcorrections got a very nice see-saw action going. Point is, I don't trust myself to not do the same thing, minus the papers, plus a corner entered way too fast and not smoothly enough. Either that thing has a much higher center of gravity than it looks like, or it was over-tired at the time (not likely).

But then there was that guy who used a Mexican Cavalier (same car different badge) as a track day car with no incedent. Who knows. But when I got to modding that thing, a lower c.g. is going to be priorty number one, just in case.
 
Protip: (given you apparently live in a place with some fantastic mountain roads)

1. Sell the big iron-block V6 with terrible weight distribution and shot suspension.

2. Buy a sissified Civic hatchback. It doesn't even have to be pink. Just needs good tires.

3. Go find a good instructor and get instructified in the ways of trail-braking and scandinavian booger picking and flicking. Attend a few snow races.

4. THEN complain about front-wheel drive.
 
3. Go find a good instructor and get instructified in the ways of trail-braking and scandinavian booger picking and flicking.

While I am not a race driver, in 15+ years as a sim racer (yes, I count GT, but I do plan to do iRacing in the future, and of course, project CARS), I have learned enough that I was able to take it to the track (OK, it was just one day at VIR.) and drive competently enough to not crash the car and make everyone scared when they were around me.

However, I can't really help in rally, tarmac is my thing.
 
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Why would you even want to mod it.....grenade waiting to happen

Apparently that cast-iron V6 is actually a pretty strong engine, and probably bottlenecked badly enough from the factory (cruddy intake, exhaust pipe full of crush bends, anything else that would exaggerate the engine's low-revving nature) that more power could probably be unlocked fairly cheaply without overstressing the engine. Revs I'm not so sure about - the tach goes yellow at 5500 RPM and red at 6000, and knowing GM's tendency to cheap out in random, critical areas the valvetrain probably can't take much more than 5000.

lolnope

The paperperson just though she was on two wheels, to generate enough cornering to tip it up you'd have to have slicks on it.

Apparently what happened was, she overcorrected multiple times and got the car tilting back and forth. It might not have gone up on two wheels immediately, but by the time it was all over it probably had almost tipped over.

Of course, I don't know. I wasn't there. I know panic and adrenaline can make situations seem larger than life. But I also know that I panic easy, and would probably get the car seesawing through repeated overcorrections and general failure to keep a cool head.
 
@Kent You just wait for the Kia to come up for polling, I will put him to shame. :dopey:
 
Apparently what happened was, she overcorrected multiple times and got the car tilting back and forth. It might not have gone up on two wheels immediately, but by the time it was all over it probably had almost tipped over.

If she did that then the car would be going slower and slower.
A car won't flip like that unless you hit something or go offroad and dig into the grass.

Of course, I don't know. I wasn't there. I know panic and adrenaline can make situations seem larger than life.

Like when soldiers report hundreds of tanks when in reality there are only about a dozen.

and would probably get the car seesawing through repeated overcorrections and general failure to keep a cool head.
Protip: (given you apparently live in a place with some fantastic mountain roads)
1. Sell the big iron-block V6 with terrible weight distribution and shot suspension.

2. Buy a sissified Civic hatchback. It doesn't even have to be pink. Just needs good tires.

3. Go find a good instructor and get instructified in the ways of trail-braking and scandinavian booger picking and flicking. Attend a few snow races.

4. THEN complain about front-wheel drive.

^That.

Not fair that yo have all the good roads when it seems that you'd rather be drag racing.
 
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