GTP Cool Wall: 2009 KTM X-Bow Street

[Zenith]

Luckily the automotive industry is not geared around your needs.

You didn't answer whether the Toyota MR-S, Renaultsport Clio V6 or Mazda MX-5/Miata are or are not "street cars".



Or stop pretending that your personal definitions are the correct ones.

MRS, Clio, MX5. All have 2 seats. Nope. Not to me they're not. If I was living alone or didn't have kids, yes. Street legal, but not street-able for my life. Feel free to find as much ridiculousness as you feel in that statement.

Merriam-Webster's only definition for street car...

Main Entry: street·car
Pronunciation: \ˈstrēt-ˌkär\
Function: noun
Date: 1860
: a vehicle on rails used primarily for transporting passengers and typically operating on city streets

So no, the X-Bow is DEFINITELY not a street car

Street car is not defined in the same specificity street-legal is.

 

[homeforsummer]

HFS: Street-car and Street-legal are two different things for me. I agree that something is either street legal, or it isn't, but a "street car" is subjective. (in my opinion). Why would I redefine my definition if it works for me? The word "street car" must define something different to you than it does for me. After all, words are used to represent an idea.

But definitions are not. And the definition of a street car, if there is such a thing, is a car that is designed for the street.

I have an MX5/Miata at the moment. It's my only car. I use it exclusively (for now) on the road. I'm sure it'd be damn good on a track (in fact, I know it would, because I've driven Miatas on track before). But it's still a street car, road car, whatever you want to call it. I used it in heavy snow all winter, and ran rings around people in cars like you probably use to cart your family about. I've also used it to take my belongings to and from uni, done several long (300+ miles) journeys in it, etc etc.

Given that to me it's a perfectly acceptable street car, what does that mean? I'm sorry if it's grating on you, but to me it means you're wrong, not that there are several definitions of what makes a street car. If that were the case, then surely there must be people out there for whom nothing less than a Hummer H1 is a street car, as no other car could fulfil their needs?...

Merriam-Webster's only definition for street car...

Main Entry: street·car
Pronunciation: \ˈstrēt-ˌkär\
Function: noun
Date: 1860
: a vehicle on rails used primarily for transporting passengers and typically operating on city streets

So no, the X-Bow is DEFINITELY not a street car

Street car is not defined in the same specificity street-legal is.

If you're going to get anal about it, then bear in mind that Famine started this little discussion by saying it was a road car. The word "street" only got dragged into it because of the "Street" part of the X-Bow's name, and for all anyone knows "Street" probably means "Street-legal" rather than specifically "Street-car".

In which case, you're still wrong. As the X-Bow is very much street legal. It is also a road car. So I'm pretty sure you can combine the two to make it a street car. Especially since your definition is 150 years old...

 

[vinnyvangough]

But what would Kristen Scott Thomas think?

 

[Zenith]

What the words represent is their definition.

Your definition of a street car: "the definition of a street car, if there is such a thing, is a car that is designed for the street."...

...Has exactly equal amount of weight as MY definition: "A car that will suite the owner's needs by itself" because there is no definition for a STREET CAR that applies to this argument. You can say that I'm wrong all you'd like, but that doesn't change the fact that my opinion has the same amount of concrete evidence as yours does and if I were to attack your definition of "street car" or Famine's or Kristen Scott Thomas', it would all have the same amount of weight.

I'm sure your street car works fine for you and I'm sure there must be somebody who needs a Hummer to fulfill their daily duties. An MX-5 is a street car by your standards, a Mustang is a street car by my standards, and a hummer is a street car by person X's standards. What's wrong with that?

*Part 2*
hmm.. no he didn't?

"The fact it's a street car makes it a street car. Look again at the pictures I posted which clearly show it on the street."

If you don't like the 150 year old definition then you can go find a source that contradicts mine.

TL;DR version

-Since there is no definition for "street car" that applies to this discussion, I can go ahead and use my personal definition for the sake of argument.

 

[homeforsummer]

What the words represent is their definition.

Your definition of a street car: "the definition of a street car, if there is such a thing, is a car that is designed for the street."...

...Has exactly equal amount of weight as MY definition: "A car that will suite the owner's needs by itself" because there is no definition for a STREET CAR that applies to this argument.

It actually has a little more, because it's correct, as opposed to being wrong...

You can say that I'm wrong all you'd like,

Gladly.

but that doesn't change the fact that my opinion has the same amount of concrete evidence as yours

Except it doesn't, because it's fairly obvious that a street car is a car for the street. See what I did there? Whatever personal use you get out of said car for the street is irrelevant, because as long as you can use your car on the street, it's a street car. Or a road car, or whatever you want to call it.

I'm sure your street car works fine for you and I'm sure there must be somebody who needs a Hummer to fulfill their daily duties. An MX-5 is a street car by your standards, a Mustang is a street car by my standards, and a hummer is a street car by person X's standards. What's wrong with that?

If you consider some street cars and some not, then everything. If you accept that they're all street cars because they are all designed to be used on the street, then nothing.

*Part 2*
hmm.. no he didn't?

Yes he did

If you don't like the 150 year old definition then you can go find a source that contradicts mine.

A 150 year old definition for someone who is gay means they're happy and joyful. Try telling that to the modern world...

 

[Zenith]

It actually has a little more, because it's correct, as opposed to being wrong...


Except it doesn't, because it's fairly obvious that a street car is a car for the street. See what I did there? Whatever personal use you get out of said car for the street is irrelevant, because as long as you can use your car on the street, it's a street car.

Prove it. Find me a definition that can be considered stronger than Webster and all the other ones I can find with 5 seconds and google. If you do that then I'm happy to concede this argument and we can all be friends.

He also used "STREET CAR". That's what we're defining.

If you look into a dictionary now...

Main Entry: 1gay
Pronunciation: \ˈgā\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French gai, of Germanic origin; akin to Old High German gāhi quick, sudden
Date: 14th century
1 a : happily excited : merry <in a gay mood> b : keenly alive and exuberant : having or inducing high spirits <a bird's gay spring song>
2 a : bright, lively <gay sunny meadows> b : brilliant in color
3 : given to social pleasures; also : licentious
4 a : homosexual <gay men> b : of, relating to, or used by homosexuals <the gay rights movement> <a gay bar>

And I think that it's possible that "Date" refers to the origin of the word...? Meaning that it is possible that "street car" is a modern definition. Correct me if I'm wrong...

 

[homeforsummer]

And I think that it's possible that "Date" refers to the origin of the word...? Meaning that it is possible that "street car" is a modern definition. Correct me if I'm wrong...

Given that "street car" is a term rather than a word, I suspect the term dates back 150 years. Ask virtually any person alive today what a street car is and they won't say a tram, which is basically what your old definition described.

You've also completely ignored the part where I said that Famine used the term "road car" originally, and that effectively "street car" is simply a transposition of one word for another with similar meaning. The only reason the word "street" crept into this discussion is because of the use of that word in the car's name.

Which I've already said is equally as likely to mean "street legal", the definition of which is more than a little obvious.

You can go on twisting the syntax as much as you like but it doesn't make your definition any less wrong. Nor does it make the 150 year old one any less irrelevant, regardless of whether it's the only one you can find.

 

[Zenith]

And what if I argue that a road car and a street car are two slightly different things? As evident from the fact that the terms use different words

So the basis of your argument is... "A street car is ______ because most people say it is and it makes sense to me. Forget dictionaries. If you say otherwise, you are wrong, I am right"... heh...

Because it's a well known fact that a majority is always correct.

 

[niky]

And what if I argue that a road car and a street car are two slightly different things? As evident from the fact that the terms use different words

Road, street, tomato, tomatoh... whatever.

So the basis of your argument is... "A street car is ______ because most people say it is and it makes sense to me. Forget dictionaries. If you say otherwise, you are wrong, I am right"... heh...

Because it's a well known fact that a majority is always correct.

Actually, I thought the whole argument was over the X-Bow was a real road-legal "car", as in a road-going conveyance of passengers. Because it is obviously a car, and its name says it's "street"... meaning street-legal (whatever that is)... you're one of the few insisting it's not a car for the streets.

Besides... you're the one who started the silly game over the name:

Also, saying the X-Bow is a street car because it has the word "street" in it's name...

When everyone else has been saying:

The X-Bow Street is a road-legal (hence the "street") version of the X-Bow. The X-Bow Race is a track-only version of the X-Bow. See how it works?

If you can get a license plate for it. It's technically a street legal car, then its a road car.

It's a road car.

If there's flaws in the definition, it's because you insisted on using the term street car, when by the dictionary definition, a street car is nothing like your definition. You started using the term, you can't back out now behind a definition that doesn't match your argument.

 

[Radracing]

Bill Clinton comes to mind with this argument. Haha! I did not have sexual intercourse with that woman! Define "Sexual Intercourse! hehe! If she's a woman she may suck ? (her attitude ). She dosen't need a license to make it legal. Oh! sorry thats for another thread.

 

[JB-BMW1989]

Seriously uncool. The Caterham Super Seven kicks butt hard, really hard.

 

[Jondot]

If you look into a dictionary now...

Main Entry: 1gay
Pronunciation: \&#712;g&#257;\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French gai, of Germanic origin; akin to Old High German g&#257;hi quick, sudden
Date: 14th century
1 a : happily excited : merry <in a gay mood> b : keenly alive and exuberant : having or inducing high spirits <a bird's gay spring song>
2 a : bright, lively <gay sunny meadows> b : brilliant in color
3 : given to social pleasures; also : licentious
4 a : homosexual <gay men> b : of, relating to, or used by homosexuals <the gay rights movement> <a gay bar>

And I think that it's possible that "Date" refers to the origin of the word...? Meaning that it is possible that "street car" is a modern definition. Correct me if I'm wrong...

I pop out of the thread for 10 minutes and people are looking up 'gay' in the dictionary?

Did nobody even think to call me?

So the basis of your argument is... "A street car is ______ because most people say it is and it makes sense to me. Forget dictionaries. If you say otherwise, you are wrong, I am right"... heh...

No no, let's not do that. Let's flip this over.

Tell me: what's the basis of your argument? Because I'm so lost with all the dancing around you've done that I'm finding it impossible to actually tell.

But I'm sure you'll just disregard this like you did my perfectly good MR2 example. *Sigh*, to be unloved...

 

[Zenith]

I already said that the MR-2 is not a street car by my definition.

My argument is that the X-Bow doesn't qualify as a "street car" in my eyes because it couldn't adequately support my day to day needs. When it comes to the definition of "street car" itself, I'm saying that since there is no concrete definition that matches this discussion, there's nothing wrong with me using my own definition to make my vote.

 

[Northstar]

I already said that the MR-2 is not a street car by my definition.

My argument is that the X-Bow doesn't qualify as a "street car" in my eyes because it couldn't adequately support my day to day needs. When it comes to the definition of "street car" itself, I'm saying that since there is no concrete definition that matches this discussion, there's nothing wrong with me using my own definition to make my vote.

You mean other than any street legal car?

 

[homeforsummer]

And what if I argue that a road car and a street car are two slightly different things? As evident from the fact that the terms use different words

Different words that mean essentially the same thing. Like floor and ground, or ignorant and oblivious. Or incorrect and wrong.

So the basis of your argument is... "A street car is ______ because most people say it is and it makes sense to me. Forget dictionaries. If you say otherwise, you are wrong, I am right"... heh...

The basis of my arguement is that a car designed to be used on the street and a car designed to be used on the road mean the same thing. I'm not sure I can make it any simpler than that for you.

Because it's a well known fact that a majority is always correct.

No, because it's a well known fact that what you're saying is incorrect. I can spin that line a number of ways too and it'll mean the same thing...

I already said that the MR-2 is not a street car by my definition.

My argument is that the X-Bow doesn't qualify as a "street car" in my eyes because it couldn't adequately support my day to day needs. When it comes to the definition of "street car" itself, I'm saying that since there is no concrete definition that matches this discussion, there's nothing wrong with me using my own definition to make my vote.

Using the fact it's impractical as a basis for your vote is... interesting, in the first place. I'd love to see a cool wall run by yourself, all minvans and wagons at the top and classics, supercars, sports cars and the like languishing at the bottom... simply because they don't "meet your needs".

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

My argument is that the X-Bow doesn't qualify as a "street car" in my eyes because it couldn't adequately support my day to day needs. When it comes to the definition of "street car" itself, I'm saying that since there is no concrete definition that matches this discussion, there's nothing wrong with me using my own definition to make my vote.

You know how there are sand cars and race cars and off-road cars? Well you can also have a street car, which is made so it can be used on the streets. There is nothing in those two words that refers to anything about needs or family.

 

[Zenith]

Justin and Road Dogg: I understand what you're saying. If you can find me a definition that supports the claim that a "street car" is "any street legal car", then I'll be happy to concede. My entire point is that there is NO CONCRETE DEFINITION FOR STREET CAR. Until then, I will use my definition for my own cool wall votes. I'm sure that putting "street" and "car" together produces an unquestionable result for most people, but it doesn't for me. Until you can find me a higher authority that argues against my idea, then in what way is my opinion incorrect?

HFS: I like how you angry you get over a simple internet discussion. You're very quick to badmouth me (again, over the internet) while a true counterpoint would include facts rather than petty insults....

And when did I say that a car must be considered a practical street car to be cool in my book? Didn't think so... Stop assuming and find some facts.

-For example let's take the X-Bow. It doesn't fall into the street car category in my eyes, so I judge it by comparing it to similar cars (Ariel Atom, Caparo T1, etc.) Since I don't have any special loves or grudges against the lightweight driver's cars, yet the X-Bow is outdone in several aspects, it gets an uncool. I would however, give an Ariel Atom a Sub Zero because I think that it defines the category of those cars perfectly.


"The basis of my arguement is that a car designed to be used on the street and a car designed to be used on the road mean the same thing. I'm not sure I can make it any simpler than that for you."

I understand your side completely, it has a valid point. I choose to to interpret the term "street car" differently than you, and since you are yet to find me a concrete definition that supports yours, your point is as irrational as mine. If your highness allows it, I would like the permission to define things which do not have a concrete definition for myself freely. You have no authority besides your own opinion to challenge mine. You can throw your logic at me all day and I'll remain where I am, when you find some facts, I'll listen.

 

[Sharky.]

Street car refers to a customized enthusiast&#8217;s automobile outfitted to be legal for usage on public streets, as opposed to a race car or other vehicle with modifications that are only legal on a private track

/Wikipedia

Why would a street car not be any road-legal vehicle? It can be driven on the street, therefore it can be called a "street car" if so desired.

 

[astrosdude91]

And out of NO WHERE! Taylor Swift comes and ends it!

 

[Zenith]

Street car refers to a customized enthusiast’s automobile outfitted to be legal for usage on public streets, as opposed to a race car or other vehicle with modifications that are only legal on a private track

/Wikipedia

Why would a street car not be any road-legal vehicle? It can be driven on the street, therefore it can be called a "street car" if so desired.

Take note HFS, this the kind of point I listen to.

A very good example for your point of view, but (without sounding unsatisfiable) Wikipedia is not the most trusted source, certainly not compared to Webster. Any other links?

 

[Famine]

Merriam-Webster's only definition for street car...

Main Entry: street·car

That's Merriam-Webster's only definition for "streetcar". The same term appears in the OED and Cambridge. Why does it not return any results for "street car"? Keep scrolling through the dictionary - hell, even pick one up and flick through it - and find how many definitions it gives for single words and how many it gives for two words.

With that in mind, look up "street" (or, in Britain, "road"). Then look up "car". Nowhere in either of those definitions are the number of seats, the amount of load space, practicality or the ability to meet the needs of Zenith013.

"Street car" (or "road car") merely means a car for the street (or road). In fact the term doesn't even make the distinction between public roads and non-public roads, but we use the term to distinguish between cars which may be used on public roads from those which are not (non-street car, non-road car, race car - though we also have the term "street-legal race car" which defines a race car which is legal to use on public roads).

A dictionary is not a good place to look for definitions of combinations of words. What you need for that is some sort of encyclopaedia. An online one would be great.

A very good example for your point of view, but (without sounding unsatisfiable) Wikipedia is not the most trusted source, certainly not compared to Webster. Any other links?

It's just a pity you rejected it out of hand in favour of a tool which is not suitable for the task.


Incidentally, I'd like to applaud Sharky for the most subtle joke I've ever seen on GTPlanet. Unless he didn't mean it, in which case he ought to pretend he did.

 

[astrosdude91]

Famine, I just noticed Sharky's joke. That was clever! I'll applaud him too!

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Justin and Road Dogg: I understand what you're saying. If you can find me a definition that supports the claim that a "street car" is "any street legal car", then I'll be happy to concede. My entire point is that there is NO CONCRETE DEFINITION FOR STREET CAR.

Yes because it is made up of two words: street and car. Street in this case is being used as an adjective.

 

[Jondot]

My argument is that the X-Bow doesn't qualify as a "street car" in my eyes because it couldn't adequately support my day to day needs. When it comes to the definition of "street car" itself, I'm saying that since there is no concrete definition that matches this discussion, there's nothing wrong with me using my own definition to make my vote.

I don't think anyone has a problem with you voting uncool because the car is unpractical for you (although that does miss the point of the cool wall somewhat). The issue is where you've refused to acknowledge that it (and pretty much any other car you see fit) is not a 'street car' simply because it can't carry 4 people and luggage. You can jump around all day stating that it's your opinion and we're bound by the Geneva convention of arguing that we're not allowed to contest it, but it's not your opinion: it's you redefining existing terminology so that it's based on your own opinion. Which is very different.

And again, going back to where you say "your definition has exactly the amount of weight as my definition", I think you've forgotten how arguments generally work. By that logic I can hop in and say my 'definition' of a street/road car is that it has to be shaped like an ironing board and hand-built by Liberace. Would you say my 'definition' has the same weight as yours? Because who are you to contest my opinion, right? After all, it is based on it.

But of course this isn't really a serious argument, is it. You seemingly just decided that Sharky suddenly is the only one who actually bothered to toss the words 'street' 'car' and 'legal' into a sentence, and immediately commended him on*. Which I find a little strange, considering that yesterday you contested homeforsummer saying basically the same thing:

HFS: Street-car and Street-legal are two different things for me.

So either you've got the point of being so annoyed with hfs disagreeing with you that you wanted to rub his face in it, or you're very forgetful. Thoughts?


*this isn't to say you don't need commending, Sharky. Stella! performance old boy.

 

[Jim Prower]

Just to play with things a bit more...This could be defined as a street car...

it's a car (a railway car) that runs on the street.

((I'm not saying in any way that it's comparable to the X-Bow, or even really pertinent to this argument. Just that the definition of a street car can be twisted an any number of ways. Like the definition of the Constitution, the interpretation of the Bible, etc...))

 

[homeforsummer]

HFS: I like how you angry you get over a simple internet discussion. You're very quick to badmouth me (again, over the internet) while a true counterpoint would include facts rather than petty insults....

I've made my point enough so I'm not going to make it again.

If you think I've been getting angry though I'm sorry to disappoint you. You'll have to be a lot more ignorant than you're already being before it starts to rile me.

You though I suspect are getting a little angry. In the paragraph above the one I quoted you used caps lock. Caps lock is for anger. Bold or italics are for emphasis...

And when did I say that a car must be considered a practical street car to be cool in my book? Didn't think so... Stop assuming and find some facts.

You haven't used a single fact thus far. You've used an opinion (which you've tried to claim is sufficient for a definition, when it is not), and a 150 year old definition.

Take note HFS, this the kind of point I listen to.

So essentially, you'll believe what I've been saying the whole time as long as I find a source? If you're prepared to believe exactly what I've been saying with a source, then I find it hard to understand why you're being stubborn about it without a source.

it's a car (a railway car) that runs on the street.

Or a tram in other words. Just like the 150 year old definition Zenith thinks is a better definition than simply being correct.

 

[Sharky.]

Incidentally, I'd like to applaud Sharky for the most subtle joke I've ever seen on GTPlanet. Unless he didn't mean it, in which case he ought to pretend he did.

Famine, I just noticed Sharky's joke. That was clever! I'll applaud him too!

*this isn't to say you don't need commending, Sharky. Stella! performance old boy.

Yeah, I hid a joke in there on purpose

 

[Zenith]

I have doubt for Wikipedia because of it's reputation and (in this case) lack of sources, not because I value a dictionary over an encyclopedia. I've already looked through a few online encyclopedias and found nothing that supports your definition.

This discussion is getting redundant. If you care enough to show me a credible source, PM me and I'll be happy to renounce myself. Feel free to announce your correctness as much as it pleases you, but it's all meaningless without a source. I'll be at the new GTP Cool Wall thread

 

[Murcie_LP640]

You don't have a true source either, just a 150-year-old definition about trams which you're somehow relating to an object that, at the time, didn't even exist yet.

 

[Famine]

I have doubt for Wikipedia because of it's reputation and (in this case) lack of sources, not because I value a dictionary over an encyclopedia. I've already looked through a few online encyclopedias and found nothing that supports your definition.

And your own variant?

No, thought not.

This discussion is getting redundant.

It has been since the start. You invented your own definition for a two word phrase that neither word can support on its own nor in combination, cited "opinion" then moved on to "well, yours isn't in the dictionary, because the dictionary says it means 'tram'." (paraphrase), without noting that this further devalued your own version.

If you care enough to show me a credible source

You've had one - from not only a credible, but a suitable source.

Feel free to announce your correctness as much as it pleases you, but it's all meaningless without a source.

Alright, then to me a street car must be capable of supporting a family. That's my definition and I stick with it.

Physician, heal thyself.