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GTP Cool Wall: 2014+ BMW i8
- Thread starter GranTurismo916
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You can only sell oil for as much as people can afford. If people can't afford it, you can't raise the price any further.
The meteoric rise of oil prices in 07-08 was caused by market speculators, gambling on oil. Yes... the price was being set by the stock market. (More precisely, the commodities market)
There were oil producers expressing concern that prices were too high, but what would you have them do? Sell low so the middlemen could make a killing on the commodities market reselling at market prices?
And now... Prices are too low. Over five hundred US rigs have shut down. The Russian economy is in free fall. Iran is in trouble. Venezuela is in trouble. Everyone is suffering. Saudi Arabia is also taking a hosing, but they ain't cutting production so everyone else can sell oil at higher prices. Because then they'll lose market share. And money. There's also the uncomfortable fact that investors are dropping oil futures, scared of putting money in oil. Some pundits are expecting a general stock market crash to follow later this year. Unless enough US rigs have already folded to ease the supply glut. (Current price upswing is speculators taking wild bets on oil now that the Saudi King has died)
Long story short: yeah. Stock market.
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- 8,642
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- GTP_Stotty
By far the most interesting and exciting £100k car on the market.
As fast as it needs to be. c.40mpg vs <20mpg for most of it's competitors. Looks fabulous.
The technology will filter down to lesser models over the coming years.
SZ
Edit; for some of the misinformed posts on this thread...
Fuel economy:
I don't think this is particularly important on a £100k car, but CAR magazine just got 37mpg over 650 miles on a test in Nevada/California. The test included a Hurracan, the SRT and a new Mustang, which were all well below 20mpg over the same route.
Don't blame BMW for the headline figure - it's the ridiculousness of the European test cycle, and that's all manufacturers are allowed to claim (in the EU at least).
Driving:
The i8 has had almost universal praise in the European motoring press. It was in both EVO and CAR magazines 2014 'car of the year' tests and did very well in both, up against some of the best drivers cars on the market.
As fast as it needs to be. c.40mpg vs <20mpg for most of it's competitors. Looks fabulous.
The technology will filter down to lesser models over the coming years.
SZ
Edit; for some of the misinformed posts on this thread...
Fuel economy:
I don't think this is particularly important on a £100k car, but CAR magazine just got 37mpg over 650 miles on a test in Nevada/California. The test included a Hurracan, the SRT and a new Mustang, which were all well below 20mpg over the same route.
Don't blame BMW for the headline figure - it's the ridiculousness of the European test cycle, and that's all manufacturers are allowed to claim (in the EU at least).
Driving:
The i8 has had almost universal praise in the European motoring press. It was in both EVO and CAR magazines 2014 'car of the year' tests and did very well in both, up against some of the best drivers cars on the market.
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- 87,319
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- GTP_Famine
Now, let's discuss that performance.
Just like the fuel economy, it's heavily dependent on the 130hp and 184lbfft that the electric motors provide and, once the battery is depleted (which we know happens quite a great deal more rapidly than 22 miles, particularly if you're using the performance), performance will suffer markedly.
Oddly, I can't find any performance figures for driving using only the 230hp 1.5 litre petrol engine (wonder why), but with 1,485kg to tug about I'd guess it was around 8s to 60mph.
So, now we're looking at a car that can keep up with the Huracan, SRT (Challenger? Charger?) and Mustang while sporting the same fuel economy, or it can get a more warm hatch like fuel economy while showing warm hatch performance.
On the bright side, if you let the petrol engine charge up the batteries while coasting along, you'll be able to do the former slightly more often.
At the moment I'm driving an Infiniti Q50S Hybrid. It sports a 300hp V6 in the front and 60hp motors driving the rear. It supposedly dispatches 0-60mph in 5.4s and returns 41.5mpg. Little secret - it'll only do the former with all of the power and the latter only if the battery is fully charged. Which it isn't very often, because it's quite a lot of fun to do the former
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I might be entirely wrong but I seem to recall Harrismonkey saying that the computer pretty much wouldn't let that situation happen, it will always steal enough from Peter, prior to Paul coming round and taking all his furniture. It would be like trying to get 1/4 mile drag times for a normal car, when you've intentionally only put 1/8th of a mile of fuel in it, and then judge it's performance on limp-home mode.
.... I love the fact the i8 is not a normal car.
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Yeah... except for the part that this is something you'd encounter in completely normal driving. Having used the battery you're relying only on the petrol engine.
At this point you're looking at one of three situations, and the one I gave is the best case scenario for performance.
Petrol engine drives the wheels only, unobstructed - 230hp
Petrol engine drives the wheels only, limited - <230hp
Petrol engine drives the wheels and generator to charge the battery - <230hp
BMW give fuel economy ratings for that situation - and they're pretty much as we've said in this thread already - so there should be performance ratings too. I suspect they're pretty warm hatch in nature.
It's pretty normal - as I said, I'm driving an Infiniti this week with the same setup, only with a larger petrol engine (300hp) and smaller motors (60hp). It will drive the wheels and the battery from the petrol engine, it'll drive the wheels from the petrol engine and battery and it will scavenge kinetic energy to charge the battery. Despite weighing 1.9 tonnes it'll do 0-60mph in 5.4s and it ought to do 41mpg combined - but actually does about 30mpg*.
And that "only" cost £47k
*Given that on petrol only it's 300hp and 1.9 tonnes and the i8 is 220hp and 1.5 tonnes, 40mpg seems pretty much what I'd expect from the i8
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Well, I never said it was perfect
Nor, the circumstances in which the numbers were generated, but I do sense that you are acting as the antipode for the optimistic test and quoted values. As I said earlier, it's really down to people to evaluate what they're likely to get out of the car...... I mean nobody researches 100k purchases anymore?It's pretty normal - as I said, I'm driving an Infiniti this week with the same setup, only with a larger petrol engine (300hp) and smaller motors (60hp). It will drive the wheels and the battery from the petrol engine, it'll drive the wheels from the petrol engine and battery and it will scavenge kinetic energy to charge the battery. Despite weighing 1.9 tonnes it'll do 0-60mph in 5.4s and it ought to do 41mpg combined - but actually does about 30mpg*.
And that "only" cost £47k
The BMW is a concept car made from Carbon Fibre, made in a water powered factory, built to look like an awesome looking concept car. Its got Laser headlights and and iPad key thingumy... assuming you pony up the extra money for them... and you are pretty much guaranteed to get a reaction from anybody with it... good or bad. Infiniti? Infiniti who? You mention that name to people in this country and they'll tell you about the Infinity window sticker they they got with their 1kW amp for their sub in their Nova GTE. The i8 is greater than the sum of its parts, it's not normal.
editted: for typos and font issues
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Yes and no. BMW themselves quote fuel economy ratings in normal driving - they add a disclaimer on the websiteWell, I never said it was perfect
Six of one. Some will, some won't. If we were buying one, we would. If Justin Bieber was, he wouldn't.
I saw one at GWFOS and I was struck by just how boring it was. It looks like an 8 series updated to look like a 4 Series, only smaller. I just can't get excited by it. But you know, to each etc. etc. etc.
Uhhh... wut? I suspect you missed the point there - I'm not saying anything about how good the Infiniti is, simply that it's a 3 Series sized four door saloon with exactly the same sort of powertrain that gets the sort of fuel economy scale I'd expect from the i8 day in day out. I've now been told that CAR managed 37mpg, which is pretty much bang on what I said (and what BMW claim in their disclaimer).
The i8 is... boring. Less so than the i3, but still. It's a hundred grand of BMW with a 1.5 litre 3 pot and electric motors that either gets supercar performance and economy or hatchback performance and economy - not a mix.
And you know who will buy it? Not you or me. Justin Bieber and Sean Penn.
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As you say, each to their own, but really... 8 series? 4 series? I see nothing of either, and I would be interested for you to point out any specific similarities. But, either way... you were "struck" and like I said, the reaction may be good or bad.
... and I didn't say anything about how good the infiniti is, you bought it in to the conversation, it appears in response to my comment about normality. It "struck" me that the infiniti is nothing more than a different drivetrain in a VERY normal car... (I could be wrong... I've not noticed infinitis UK penetration at all, so apologies if I've missed some obvious facts about this car). Even ignoring the drivetrain, the concept behind the i8 seems very different to what a BMW normally is... even at 100 GRAND. A £100,000 BMW vs. a £47,000 subwoofer sticker.... if you can't make sense of the former, the latter must be brain-melting.
It's even worse than that. I'm attempting to abandon the BMW forums because I can't tolerate the real people either (much like (unsuccessful) me with GTP and PhotonPensoGate).
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That's a reach and a half!
Okay... You're missing the purpose of mentioning the Infiniti...
It's exactly the same concept as the i8, only it's wrapped in a normal car. It does things the same way - only with the balance tipped more towards the petrol engine than the motors - which allows one to extrapolate relative power and performance potential upon draining of the battery. Now it turns out that my extrapolation of the fuel economy was accurate to within less than ten percent...
It's not that the Infiniti is good, bad or in any way more sensible than the BMW (though you know... four doors, five seats, boot, half the price, nearly as fast - if you want my review, look at carwow next Wednesday!) just that it's directly comparable technology.
Which leads me back to seriously uncool. Not only is the i8 dull and Emperor's New Clothes, but the Bieber effect applies to significant levels.
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No more so than any 4-seriezed8-er shrunk down abit.... which I still don't see. I spend a lot of time looking at pictures of BMW's.
No, the concept is not the same... soon BMW will be releasing eDrive models, and that will be your comparison... the concept of the i8, infact the i-Brand overall, is not about electrifying existing technology, it was about starting from a much lower level and working up, seeing what new stuff that bought to the table, and going from there. If as a concept that doesn't work for some, then fine... but it's a benchmark for BMW, and for their competition... whichever way you slice the numbers... what ever the style, whatever the drivetrain... people will be aiming for the i8, like they aim to be a 3 series competitor.
.. ah what the hell you're right.
Cheers.
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Not at the back, where it looks like that scene from Ace Ventura 2 only with a Porsche 911, but at the front.
Eh?
The i8 is a parallel hybrid with a petrol engine that drives one set of wheels and the generator and motors that drive the other set of wheels, with regenerative braking. The Q50 Hybrid is a parallel hybrid with a petrol engine that drives one set of wheels and the generator and motors that drive the other set of wheels, with regenerative braking. The only key difference is that you can plug the i8 in to charge the battery up before you go anywhere - other than that it's just balance differences, with the i8 deriving more power from the batteries and less from the engine than the Q50 and having a greater EV range.
It's the same tech, with an additional plug socket.
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I've literally been talking about nothing but the powertrain since I mentioned the Infiniti which has the same kind of powertrain...
And I mentioned it because it has the same sort of powertrain because I was explaining why the car has supercar performance and fuel economy or hatchback performance and fuel economy.
- 1,817
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- RS73private
If this is the supercar of the future,. I'm okay with that. Sub zero, though I still will always would go for the one with the V12.
- 27,219
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I'm a car person and I think it's cool...
That bit is a problem and a large part of why the NEDC tests are balls, though all other things being equal the cost of doing a certain distance on electricity is so low compared to doing the same on combustible fuel for it to be a non-issue finance-wise.
The last ~11 months and 14k miles in my Honda have cost me about a grand in petrol, and that's at 75mpg. 14k miles in an electric car would have cost me about a fifth of that, if I charged at night (which... well, I would). And that's compared to probably the least-thirsty car on the road.
Of course, the journeys I've done in the past year in the Honda would have been essentially impossible in any current electric car (Model S included) but that's a different argument for a different day. On a monetary basis, every mile in the Insight has cost the same as five miles in an EV (or indeed PHEV - if you buy one with enough range to cover your commute).
Going back to the i8, I'd theoretically be able to do my commute both ways (14 miles) without firing up the engine once. I'd not need to particularly - there are plugs at home and at work - but it rather illustrates the appeal of the i8 for me. More than sufficient levels of performance when I'm feeling silly, and negligible running costs when I'm hacking to work and back.
Combine that with the fact it's the best-looking BMW since the 1980s and it makes pretty much every other car on the road look a decade older, it's a fairly comfortable cool for me. Fun to drive, too.
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- GTP_Stotty
I've looked back through multiple tests of the i8 (EVO 'car of the year', CAR 'car of the year', CAR 3 day test in Nevada/California), and no mention of the car losing it's battery power and becoming just a 3cyl petrol... the 2 car of the year articles will have involved drivers jumping in and out of the i8 across the day(s), thrashing it mercilessly and then handing it over to someone else to do the same - just about as hard a life as it will ever get. The regeneration mechanics on it must be very good 
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Just not good enough to survive the 7 mile NEDC test...I've looked back through multiple tests of the i8 (EVO 'car of the year', CAR 'car of the year', CAR 3 day test in Nevada/California), and no mention of the car losing it's battery power and becoming just a 3cyl petrol... the 2 car of the year articles will have involved drivers jumping in and out of the i8 across the day(s), thrashing it mercilessly and then handing it over to someone else to do the same - just about as hard a life as it will ever get. The regeneration mechanics on it must be very good
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I posted it in this very thread.
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Indeed - but if the battery doesn't survive even the gentlest of very short drives in "laboratory" conditions one has to wonder why road testers poking one down public roads haven't brought it up.As I said, an irrelevant joke
But then I write for a publication that BMW won't actually deal with. At all...
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My guess is that the NEDC test is so gentle that while the car never accelerates at great pace, it never decelerates particularly quickly either. In other words, the car gets virtually no assistance from the engine in the test (therefore leading to the high fuel economy figure), but at the same time, never really undergoes any period of strong braking, the kind that in a cross-country blast would help to top-up the battery.
My Insight is largely the same. On my commute, I'm rarely cruising long enough to suitably charge the batteries, and because most of my commute is ~30mph, I'm never braking for long enough to give it a boost either. The result is that unless the battery is fully charged to start with, it spends most of each tank of fuel at around half capacity, drawing as much power from the engine to charge itself as it spends assisting the engine.
Of course, it's still doing 60+ mpg during all of this, so it's hardly a disaster. But it's one idea why the BMW's battery might not last a full NEDC cycle even though in real-world driving with a mix of engine and battery power it never fully depletes.
Incidentally, the last PHEV I drove before moving to evo, the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, did around 90-100mpg over a ~50 mile journey to Leeds and back, with a full charge to start it off and no charge in Leeds. That's a good 25-35mpg better than the Honda does over the same journey despite being two tonnes of petrol 4x4, and goes some way to suggesting the i8 would do similar figures over a similar journey. Not quite 130+ mpg, but probably using a good quarter of the fuel most performance-equivalent competitors would do over a similar trip.
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I suspect that's probably not far off the truth - there's also a period of idle between each test. There should, though, be some numbers somewhere for petrol-only economy and performance, since it's a situation that can occur - and I imagine many people who don't drive like... well, us will encounter it.
I ended up getting 26mpg from the Infiniti. It gave me a 61% economy rating. Both figures were the highest in its memory
