GTP Cool Wall: 2015 Dodge Charger SRT Hellcat

[mustafur]

What's the point with the Nurburgring time with the Charger Hellcat anyway? If you want a saloon to drive on the Nurburgring, it probably wouldn't be the Charger.

Its not just a race track play toy, it's basically used as an test ground to compare any performance orientated road car ever made.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

A Technical track is real world performance?

Depending on the roads you're on, yes. Narrow roads require a lot of handling precision, as do tight and blind corners, as well as significant elevation changes mid corner. All of which is found in the real world.

last I heard the Nurburgring is the most viisited track in the world by the average motorist, one that any could simply pay a few euros and drive around.

So what?

M3/M4 are essentially the same car. I always forget that they have different names now.

Its not just a race track play toy, it's basically used as an test ground to compare any performance orientated road car ever made.

Yes, it is. And it's used this way by a few certain types of people. 1: Marketing divisions. 2: People obsessed by facts and figures, rather than the actual driving experience. 3: People too young to drive.

 

[SVX]

tl;dr this argument:

The only thing the Hellcat is apparently good at is really a bit rubbish/underwhelming/overrated at it.

Also how many people actually track their cars, Last time I went to a track day every car was significantly modified from stock and no one apart from Supercar owners were running stock or close to stock.

>uses pointless lap times as a basis of an argument
>when real information is found, and argument is picked apart, back peddles and questions the logic of using lap times as a basis of an argument

 

[Wiegert]

It was around about the point where Nurburgring lap times entered the fray where I came to realise just how much I regret not waiting to see what direction this thread would go in before voting.

Shame, because I am quite fond of the aesthetic tweaks this has over any other Charger. That had been the only thing stopping me from voting lower than Uncool.

 

[mustafur]

tl;dr this argument:

The only thing the Hellcat is apparently good at is really a bit rubbish/underwhelming/overrated at it.



>uses pointless lap times as a basis of an argument
>when real information is found, and argument is picked apart, back peddles and questions the logic of using lap times as a basis of an argument

1.I never used a lap time as a basis of argument I replied to many who did though.
2. What real information? I have yet to see anything apart from quarter mile claim which I didn't claim myself being disproven.

Also I was the one in the first place saying how useless a laptime is in real world sceniaro because it is, but I was simply replying to those that made generalisations that there is a track in the world that people use for this stuff.

According to your logic you don't reply to people who present an argument to what you say because then you'll be talking about what your arguing about.

nice.

Depending on the roads you're on, yes. Narrow roads require a lot of handling precision, as do tight and blind corners, as well as significant elevation changes mid corner. All of which is found in the real world.

See it doesn't a track allows you to use all the road, a real road doesn't.

and thats forgetting:
-Rubbered Racing lines
-No speed limits
-Helmets and safety gear
etc
I think you need to understand your comparing a European Real world where as I am benchmarking the real world place its actually sold where there is basically none of that.

In Europe this car for basically any B road would be completely rediculious.

So what?

M3/M4 are essentially the same car. I always forget that they have different names now.

Im trying to educate you on the meaning of comprimise that's all.

Yes, it is. And it's used this way by a few certain types of people. 1: Marketing divisions. 2: People obsessed by facts and figures, rather than the actual driving experience. 3: People too young to drive.

So you make a Claim about a car you have no proof on and hasn't been tested against said car on the track basically all car testing gets done and then spit this out when I mention it?


Talk about irony.

 

[SVX]

1.I never used a lap time as a basis of argument I replied to many who did though.

Oh, did you not now?

Well now that I Look at the specs in detail, ill bet my left nut this will eat an M3/4 new C63 and ATS around nurburgring(cars that are around the same price).

...

2. What real information? I have yet to see anything apart from quarter mile claim which I didn't claim myself being disproven.

Well, considering you were given lap times of the Hellcat and it's competitors around Big Willow, and then stated it wasn't fair because 'that track didn't suit the Hellcat' and complaining of the use of AWD cars when the majority of competitors of the Hellcat are AWD...

Also I was the one in the first place saying how useless a laptime is in real world sceniaro because it is, but I was simply replying to those that made generalisations that there is a track in the world that people use for this stuff.

Let me just show you what you wrote again...

Well now that I Look at the specs in detail, ill bet my left nut this will eat an M3/4 new C63 and ATS around nurburgring(cars that are around the same price).

...

According to your logic you don't reply to people who present an argument to what you say because then you'll be talking about what your arguing about.

nice.

What?

 

[mustafur]

You seem to think me making a statement is me making an argument.

Well it's not the same thing just so you know.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

See it doesn't a track allows you to use all the road, a real road doesn't.

and thats forgetting:
-Rubbered Racing lines
-No speed limits
-Helmets and safety gear
etc

Yeah, but:

how many people actually track their cars, Last time I went to a track day every car was significantly modified from stock and no one apart from Supercar owners were running stock or close to stock.

Also, a real road allows you to take a racing line just like a racetrack, except the track you're working with is usually one lane wide, though you can cut across the centre line if you can see all the way through the corner.

I think you need to understand your comparing a European Real world where as I am benchmarking the real world place its actually sold where there is basically none of that.

No, I'm benchmarking the Pennsylvanian back roads I was driving on two weeks ago and the New York roads I was on a month ago. I've driven American roads, and I've driven them hard. I know what they can be like.

In Europe this car for basically any B road would be completely rediculious.

Yes.

Im trying to educate you on the meaning of comprimise that's all.

I'm still not sure what "comprimise" is.

So you make a Claim about a car you have no proof on and hasn't been tested against said car on the track basically all car testing gets done and then spit this out when I mention it?

What? I can't even understand what you're saying here. Use some grammar and punctuation, please! I'll respond to what I think you said:

I never made a claim about how fast the Hellcat would be on the Nurburgring. Also, to say that "basically all car testing" is done on the 'ring is totally absurd. I cannot explain what a ridiculous statement that is. Automakers test their prototypes for millions of miles in all sorts of conditions. There are test tracks all over the world that are used, as well as testing locations for cold and hot weather, testing laboratories, rolling roads, and of course the public roads.

You seem to think me making a statement is me making an argument.

Well it's not the same thing just so you know.

If you make a statement, then you MUST be prepared to stand by it and back it up with an argument if challenged. That's how a discussion/debate/argument works. An argument is just a collection of statements.

 

[Bc4]

Looks awesome, 4doors, and lots of power..

Cool.

 

[SVX]

You seem to think me making a statement is me making an argument.

Well it's not the same thing just so you know.

I was going to respond to this, but...

If you make a statement, then you MUST be prepared to stand by it and back it up with an argument if challenged. That's how a discussion/debate/argument works. An argument is just a collection of statements.

Jake took the words right out of my mouth.

 

[Tornado]

Well, considering you were given lap times of the Hellcat and it's competitors around Big Willow,

This is false. The actual laptimes were never given, nor was the source of that information actually divulged. All that was said was that the Hellcat was slower than its contemporaries, and the whole context was purposefully left out.




This is because if one actually pulled up the laptime leaderboard it would have been obvious just how deliberately misleading the laptime argument actually was as presented; especially when McLaren compared the Hellcat unfavorably to the 2010 GT500.

 

[mustafur]

Yeah, but:


Also, a real road allows you to take a racing line just like a racetrack, except the track you're working with is usually one lane wide, though you can cut across the centre line if you can see all the way through the corner.

But you see how many people actually do this, you may do it sure but you can not come to me and say this stuff is what the majority of performance car owners would do, not to mention american roads are wider.

No, I'm benchmarking the Pennsylvanian back roads I was driving on two weeks ago and the New York roads I was on a month ago. I've driven American roads, and I've driven them hard. I know what they can be like.

I guess that constitutes itself as the road of america then right?

I never made a claim about how fast the Hellcat would be on the Nurburgring. Also, to say that "basically all car testing" is done on the 'ring is totally absurd. I cannot explain what a ridiculous statement that is. Automakers test their prototypes for millions of miles in all sorts of conditions. There are test tracks all over the world that are used, as well as testing locations for cold and hot weather, testing laboratories, rolling roads, and of course the public roads.

Obviously im not talking about Average cars like say a base model Golf but performance orientated versions of cars most defintely.

And im also not saying the majority of testing to the car is track related, it more or less is at the final tweak stage, but fact remains that track is used in Most performance cars Test cycle.

Is it Real world performance no, but its used to tweak the handling for the Road on which most road cars are based.

fact remains you still made a claim about two different cars that you have no proof on and have changed the subject numerously in the process.

If you make a statement, then you MUST be prepared to stand by it and back it up with an argument if challenged. That's how a discussion/debate/argument works. An argument is just a collection of statements.

So answer this, I Say this car will most likely beat similarly priced cars around X track which going by your logic means I Must be contradicting a statement I said about how useless a track time is for a real world sceniaro.
I know a track time is useless in real world sceniaro ill say this countless times(applying to nearly any 4 door sedan).

If you go back a page you will see I was replying to your unproven claim with a track that can prove or disprove it, it is still a useless statistic but was just me trying to tell you, you cant make assumptions with no proof what so ever.


and at the end of the day im just replying to countless people here that can make assumptions then bring no proof what so ever to the table, then when all else fails they attack grammar because they got nothing else to argue about.

This is false. The actual laptimes were never given, nor was the source of that information actually divulged. All that was said was that the Hellcat was slower than its contemporaries, and the whole context was purposefully left out.




This is because if one actually pulled up the laptime leaderboard it would have been obvious just how deliberately misleading the laptime argument actually was as presented; especially when McLaren compared the Hellcat unfavorably to the 2010 GT500.

Like I was saying, if these guys even saw what the track they are talking about actually looks like, it's like comparing a RWD car to an AWD car in 0 to 60 times.

I mention any track that would be more suitable to a RWD car and its thrown as backpeddling.

 

[SVX]

This is false. The actual laptimes were never given, nor was the source of that information actually divulged. All that was said was that the Hellcat was slower than its contemporaries, and the whole context was purposefully left out.




This is because if one actually pulled up the laptime leaderboard it would have been obvious just how deliberately misleading the laptime argument actually was as presented; especially when McLaren compared the Hellcat unfavorably to the 2010 GT500.

My bad, then. I thought I saw lap times of the Panamera, but that must of been the 1/4 mile time. I retract the statement where he was given information.

Though, saying that, why would anyone even bring lap times up? It's a four door sedan with 700hp, I think it's pretty obvious that being fast around a track was not what it was designed for, nor was it advertised as such. These lap times show that, with it being embarrassed by it's European competitors (XFR-S, Panamera, RS7, etc.).

So, that begs the question... who would bring up something as silly as 'I bet my left nut this will be faster around the 'Ring than an M4', when it's been proven to be slower? Better yet, who would make that statement when it's been stated as a moot point (did I use that word right?) to use lap times for a vehicle which never prided itself on being the fastest around a track anyway?

@peobryant summed it up perfectly:

I've never understood people complaining that a car like this can't go around a track fast and then compare it to something like a Lotus. Well, that was never the point of the car, it was meant to go fast in a straight line. It is like saying a shark isn't as good as a bear because it can't climb a tree. Well, sharks aren't meant to climb trees.

Shall we compare it with it's competitors around a rally course? No. Why? Because rallying around a rally course something they were never designed to do, making it a pointless argument. So why are people doing the exact same to the Hellcat, comparing lap times, where it was never designed to be fast at?

Like I was saying, if these guys even saw what the track they are talking about actually looks like, it's like comparing a RWD car to an AWD car in 0 to 60 times.

I mention any track that would be more suitable to a RWD car and its thrown as backpeddling.

Well, it is. In a nutshell, what you're doing is saying 'this car is not fast here, let's change the course until it is.'

And if it's so terrible for a RWD, how come the M4 is three seconds quicker than it, which also has RWD? Which you said would be slower than the Hellcat around Nurburgring...

 

[mustafur]

@SVX does streets of willow springs look like Nurburgring to you?

Its like saying lets test two cars around kart space and then who ever wins is the best car around any track.

Yes I understand a RWD car with this much power is never going to have a shot at a track it will barely get out a wheel spin territory, but I could also bet a Koeiniggsegg Agera R would be just as much out of its comfort zone in a track like Willow Springs.

="SVX, post:Shall we compare it with it's competitors around a rally course? No. Why? Because rallying around a rally course something they were never designed to do, making it a pointless argument. So why are people doing the exact same to the Hellcat, comparing lap times, where it was never designed to be fast at?

This is what I have been saying since the start, but when you reply to people the subjects change and all I was doing was asking for proof.

Well, it is. In a nutshell, what you're doing is saying 'this car is not fast here, let's change the course until it is.'

And if it's so terrible for a RWD, how come the M4 is three seconds quicker than it, which also has RWD?

Not all tracks are the same is what im saying, you can compare quarter miles because they are pretty much very similar on every strip only the Grip of the tarmac is going to differ, but basically every track in the world is different in many ways, Willow springs favours a Grip biased setup over anything else, where as Nurburgring is balanced between Grip, Handling and Power.

Now lets not get ideas here, I never brought track times into the equation I was the one replying to them they are still useless as hell on a car like this.

 

[SVX]

@SVX does streets of willow springs look like Nurburgring to you?

Nope. Is it still a full sized circuit with corners and straights? Yes.

Its like saying lets test two cars around kart space and then who ever wins is the best car around any track.

Yes I understand a RWD car with this much power is never going to have a shot at a track it will barely get out a wheel spin territory, but I could also bet a Koeiniggsegg Agera R would be just as much out of its comfort zone in a track like Willow Springs.

No, it isn't. Not when it's been proved to not be a problem for RWD in the first place. If it was such a big deal for RWDs, how is a Corvette on the toes of the GT-Rs lap time?

Not all tracks are the same is what im saying, you can compare quarter miles because they are pretty much very similar on every strip only the Grip of the tarmac is going to differ, but basically every track in the world is different in many ways, Willow springs favours a Grip biased setup over anything else, where as Nurburgring is balanced between Grip, Handling and Power.

Yes, I get that, but it doesn't matter in this case. I don't know why you feel that the Nurburgring is the holy grail of automotive testing, when it really isn't. It's another track with straights and corners, it's just longer and more bumpy.

Now lets not get ideas here, I never brought track times into the equation I was the one replying to them they are still useless as hell on a car like this.

Really? For what I could see, is that you stated the Hellcat would be faster around the Nurburgring than an M3/M4, not in response to anyone.

 

[niky]

Seeing as how the past few pages have been about the definition of and the benchmark measurements for speed, should be seriously uncool.

From the one or two reviews I've read, it's got lots of power, but isn't very good around a track... doesn't have the brakes or suspension to match the prodigious power or the well-sorted chassis. Which leaves you with a gigantic car that will hit over 200 mph provided you can find a road long, wide and smooth enough to safely do it.

I do like the looks of the car, and the allure of a big sedan that hits 200 mph is undeniable... but... meh... can't be bothered.

 

[mustafur]

A Corvette Z06 with Track Pack is faster then the ZR1, wouldn't that answer it self?

Look I can't be bothered with this argument it's gone way too long to mean anything anymore and you constantly keep bring up out of context quotes to use as points.

 

[SVX]

A Corvette Z06 with Track Pack is faster then the ZR1, wouldn't that answer it self?

What does that have to do with anything? It's an apparently disadvantaged RWD which is keeping up with a fast AWD.

Look I can't be bothered with this argument it's gone way too long to mean anything anymore and you constantly keep bring up out of context quotes to use as points.

I've only been quoting things that you've said...

 

[mustafur]

What does that have to do with anything? It's an apparently disadvantaged RWD which is keeping up with a fast AWD.

It's a lighter, less powerful version of a corvette which has stickier tyres yes its more grip based.

I've only been quoting things that you've said...

and basically none of which was aimed at what your saying or to you.

 

[SVX]

It's a lighter, less powerful version of a corvette which has stickier tyres yes its more grip based.

It's also five years older.

and basically none of which was aimed at what your saying or to you.

Really? The only thing that I've quoted that wasn't directed at me was a statement to... nobody.

 

[Aesthetics]

This is the problem with Dodge: they're stuck in the past, with big, heavy, muscle cars. Those just aren't as accepted today (maybe if they did it right and didn't bring back the Charger as a sedan, it would.) and are slowly dying out to lighter ponycars. It kinda needs all the power, to be honest. But if Fiat's plan is to turn Dodge into a premier sports brand, they need to get their sportyness right or else they're in deep trouble. Hopefully the Dart SRT4 is more than just about straight-line performance. This Charger is a prime example of that problem. That monster 707 hp is offset by all that weight, just so it can accelerate like, well, a cat out of hell. Same with the Challenger too. Nurburgring laps are the new cliche benchmark for Auto manufacturers now, and I just want to see a proper, gutted out Charger/Challenger track edition so Dodge can catch up to those ZL1's and GT350's. /rant

Otherwise, Cool.

 

[Tunerguy21]

I just want to see a proper, gutted out Charger/Challenger track edition so Dodge can catch up to those ZL1's and GT350's.

This. So much this, although more for the Challenger than the Charger. The Charger being how it is now I don't think could pull off stripped out.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I hope your definition of what its German competitors are is a bit more specific than McLaren's "It's a sedan, so it competes with the Hellcat" was.


I see an awful lot more people blowing it off for selective reasoning than I do worshipping it for the same. Even early in this thread Camaro of all things was being put on a pedestal for how much better it is than the poor dumb Challenger and what Chrysler should have done.

I see an even keel but then again I'm the guys that can understand both sides of the argument here. '

Which is why I voted meh.

 

[McLaren]

And yet, it'll still roast pretty much anything on the street.

Why does it even matter?

So does a 10 year old Viper.

If you only care about roasting the general traffic population, then Hellcat makes you look like even more of dick swinger b/c you don't need anywhere near 700Hp to achieve such goals.

I don't see why changing a format is such a big deal. Look at the Z06...keeping up with $400,000 cars with what is apparently ancient technology.

Ever heard the phrase if it works don't fix it?

That phrase would work if GM had actually done that.

Supercharged V8 of the LS9 runs strong all day. Supercharged V8 of the LT4 & now the car can't run 3 laps without the ECU throwing the car into limp mode.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

So does a 10 year old Viper.

If you only care about roasting the general traffic population, then Hellcat makes you look like even more of dick swinger b/c you don't need anywhere near 700Hp to achieve such goals.


That phrase would work if GM had actually done that.

Supercharged V8 of the LS9 runs strong all day. Supercharged V8 of the LT4 & now the car can't run 3 laps without the ECU throwing the car into limp mode.

As much as I love the Vette it's so true it's funny. That or blowing up your brand new engine on the worst case scenario.

 

[McLaren]

As much as I love the Vette it's so true it's funny. That or blowing up your brand new engine on the worst case scenario.

Disappoints me as well because it's really grown on me. I just hope it gets fixed or people forget about it so they don't go running back to their C6s. I needs some Z in my life.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

But you see how many people actually do this, you may do it sure but you can not come to me and say this stuff is what the majority of performance car owners would do, not to mention american roads are wider.

Are you suggesting that people who will buy this car will never break the speed limit or drive for enjoyment? Because that's what I just described. Most car enthusiasts will, at some point, take their car(s) for a drive for the sake of driving. That's driving for enjoyment. And usually when enthusiasts do this, they want to experience the full potential of the car.

And as I have already stated, I already know what American roads are like.

I guess that constitutes itself as the road of america then right?

Unless Pennsylvania and New York have recently seceded from the United States, they are unquestionably American roads.

Obviously im not talking about Average cars like say a base model Golf but performance orientated versions of cars most defintely.

And im also not saying the majority of testing to the car is track related, it more or less is at the final tweak stage, but fact remains that track is used in Most performance cars Test cycle.

Is it Real world performance no, but its used to tweak the handling for the Road on which most road cars are based.

If you're so certain of this, then prove it. You seem to regard the Nurburgring as the final say in how a car drives, which tells me that you don't know very much about driving cars near the limit.

fact remains you still made a claim about two different cars that you have no proof on and have changed the subject numerously in the process.

And I'm still not sure what you're on about. Quote the post(s) and I'll take a look at what I said and either clarify what I said for you or retract my statement.

So answer this, I Say this car will most likely beat similarly priced cars around X track which going by your logic means I Must be contradicting a statement I said about how useless a track time is for a real world sceniaro.
I know a track time is useless in real world sceniaro ill say this countless times(applying to nearly any 4 door sedan).

If a track time is useless, then why did you use it as part of your argument?

If you go back a page you will see I was replying to your unproven claim with a track that can prove or disprove it, it is still a useless statistic but was just me trying to tell you, you cant make assumptions with no proof what so ever.

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/gingerman_raceway.html

The Challenger (same chassis) Hellcat lapped Gingerman (a relatively tight, short circuit) at 1:45.8. The BMW Z4 M did it in 1:41.4. The Porsche Cayman S in 1:39.7. These are cars with less than half the power of the Challenger and yet managed to be, on average, 5 seconds faster.

and at the end of the day im just replying to countless people here that can make assumptions then bring no proof what so ever to the table, then when all else fails they attack grammar because they got nothing else to argue about.

I was not attacking your grammar. I was pointing out that your poorly laid out sentences and lack of punctuation impede my comprehension of your posts.

 

[Stotty]

Saw this on another forum last night.

The 'Hellcat' is the coupe version, and obviously the driver gets it wrong off the start, but this does go to show how difficult it is to actually use 700bhp off the line with only RWD...



There are a couple of other vids on youtube of Tesla vs 458 and Aventador... it nails them both off the line, but the Aventador comes past very quickly, the 458 has to get in to 4th gear before passing.

 

[Slash]

Saw this on another forum last night.

The 'Hellcat' is the coupe version, and obviously the driver gets it wrong off the start, but this does go to show how difficult it is to actually use 700bhp off the line with only RWD...



There are a couple of other vids on youtube of Tesla vs 458 and Aventador... it nails them both off the line, but the Aventador comes past very quickly, the 458 has to get in to 4th gear before passing.

You have to remember this is a stock car with IRS that's not built just for straight line anymore. It might be best there but it's more of an all-around package these days. I've seen cars with 350hp rip the wheels off the ground and launch harder than that. With a good driver and a proper straight line setup that car could be fast as hell.

 

[MOPARbarrett5]

Saw this on another forum last night.

The 'Hellcat' is the coupe version, and obviously the driver gets it wrong off the start, but this does go to show how difficult it is to actually use 700bhp off the line with only RWD...



There are a couple of other vids on youtube of Tesla vs 458 and Aventador... it nails them both off the line, but the Aventador comes past very quickly, the 458 has to get in to 4th gear before passing.

Yes @ERAUfan97 posted that video on the XFEL forum yesterday. He is on team Tesla, so he felt good seeing that.
I felt kind of sorry... for the driver of the Hellcat. I'm sure if it was the same caliber driver in both cars, team Tesla wouldn't be too happy.