- 4,763
- Houston, TX
Has a lot of potential, but its uncool as it sits currently. The super high trap speeds has me hopeful for next season.
GTP Cool Wall: 2015+ Nissan GT-R LM NISMO
- Thread starter GranTurismo916
- 54 comments
- 4,001 views
- 4,487
- YorkshireLand
- SVTlover
Silly idea even if it is different and it failed miserably. Uncool.
- 12,122
- Liverpool
- CARBOYXJR
Sub Zero, because anti-FWD hate.
Seriously, the reaction this car got makes my blood boil. FWD is not some kind of automatic horror. Did it destroy everything else? Far from it. Would it have done so if it was RWD? No. It would've performed in exactly the same way. Nothing changes the fact that it was the lowest powered car on the grid, and it did astonishingly well for how broken it was.
Long live FWD, long live FWD racing cars.
Seriously, the reaction this car got makes my blood boil. FWD is not some kind of automatic horror. Did it destroy everything else? Far from it. Would it have done so if it was RWD? No. It would've performed in exactly the same way. Nothing changes the fact that it was the lowest powered car on the grid, and it did astonishingly well for how broken it was.
Long live FWD, long live FWD racing cars.
Would you like to contact Chris Rado to tell him that his 1200hp FWD Scion that blitzed the GTAC field that his car was all wrong? Or the APR Cupra which will be pushing out 800/900hp in ETAC trim?
- 27,387
- Toronto
- NewAesthetic
- SlipZtrEm
Oh hey, it's a race car. Not just that, but an unsuccessful one that's been severely, severely beaten by the ugly stick.
Five gold stars to whomever guesses my vote first.*
* - Gold stars may or may not be just as real as this car's podium results.
Five gold stars to whomever guesses my vote first.*
* - Gold stars may or may not be just as real as this car's podium results.
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
So because it doesn't drift it isn't cool...well that's about the silliest thing I've seen on these threads since a former user once said a car was uncool due to being a direct descended of Nazi Germany. I will clarify about as silly but not as silly, not sure how a drifting platform would make this cool, since the subject matter ( a race car) really has no reason nor serves a purpose to be drifting...
- 12,122
- Liverpool
- CARBOYXJR
Since you stated that as a reason for your SU rating, then going on to state that it doesn't affect its coolness at all must invalidate one of your contradictory arguments, no?
High-powered RWD cars can slide if driven hard. Many 4WD cars don't showboat when pushed, does that make them uncool too? FWD cars snap-oversteer like RR layout cars can, why isn't that "cool"?
Let's remember what cool means here - it's how you would be perceived in one by a member of the public. The Civic Type R is always my example - I absolutely love them to bits, but they're in no way cool. If you stretch it to racing cars, then people like to vote on how revolutionary/important it is (if they decide to go against SUBRC).
If you think that driving like a gaudy track-focused supercar (practically the definition of uncool) like a yobbo is something to be considered cool, then you may have the wrong end of the stick.
- 9,295
- Duisburg
Might need to clarify: It never having raced in an un-broken state doesn't help its coolness. That's what I meant.
Yup, and I think of that sort of behaviour as more involving and exciting than understeer - which a lot of modern cars are laid out to do for safety reasons. Plus, I don't associate a lot of cool things (or people) with sporty FWD cars. Actually, just a bunch of VDubbers and Honda guys.
I'll admit that that video wasn't a thorough "explanation" as to why I don't think of FWD cars as very cool, though.
There's an objective, quantifiable definition of "cool" these days? Nice. Should be put in the OP for the Cool Wall threats, then 👍
That said, going only by that, my vote wouldn't change. You'd be viewed as the guy who's driving the LMP1H car that got overtaken by GTEs. Don't think a member of "the public" knows, or cares, about the GT-R LM participating at Le Mans in an unfinished state. Or what sort of drive train layout it sports. That's assuming that a member of "the public" even knows what that thing is. Which kinda makes me wonder what the results should be for cars like the Miura P400, going by that logic.
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- 12,122
- Liverpool
- CARBOYXJR
It was the original deciding scenario for the Top Gear Cool Wall, why should it be any different here? "Cool" means many things to different people, but the only way you can objectively class something as "cool" is by looking at how others would perceive you with it. It's not black and white, there are many exceptions and other rules to go by, and everyone will see it differently, but it's the only way you can stop it from turning into a "like wall".
- 23,800
- Philippines
It must be said: As much fun as sliding is, you do not want a race car to slide. You want it to stick. And all-wheel drive is a very good way of getting it to stick.
What Nissan was attempting here was not just FWD. It was an attempt at making an AWD LeMans racer without a lot of heavy drivetrain bits getting in the way of some gnarly aero.
What Nissan was attempting here was not just FWD. It was an attempt at making an AWD LeMans racer without a lot of heavy drivetrain bits getting in the way of some gnarly aero.
- 12,122
- Liverpool
- CARBOYXJR
...If set up to do so.
I never get the "FWD sux because understeer" argument. It's like saying RWD cars are constantly trying to spin out no matter what. How many times do you hear in F1/GP2/GP3 that drivers are struggling with understeer? Quite often. A car will only handle depending on how it is set up geometry wise - RWD and FWD cars can understeer and oversteer in equal measure - the biggest problem with any FWD racing car is stopping it from spinning out every time you turn the wheel.
The last time I checked, grip was completely dependent on suspension setup and the limitations of the chassis. What wheels are driven doesn't gift the tyres with any more or less lateral grip.
Now, traction, yes - you can never overcome the natural fact that weight is shifted to the rear of the car under acceleration and a FWD layout won't have the same bite as a RWD one. That doesn't mean it's a lost cause. TC1 cars have such advanced mapping software, the traction loss is barely noticeable - a tenth or two lost there can be made up elsewhere.
Balance? So a RWD car with a constantly slidey tail is "balanced"? Again, a car will only handle as you set it up to do so. No car will ever be perfectly neutral, it will always either have a hint of understeer or oversteer.
It may not be easy to make a car handle the way you want it to, but I really am perplexed by how FWD is viewed. Yes, it has an inherent traction problem. Can that be physically overcome? No, that's a simple fact. Can it be nullified to a point where it's barely noticeable? Yes, of course it can. Anything can with the right engineering. It's not like RWD cars have been beautifully handling since day 1 - they were simply easiest to work with, because people didn't have any engineering techniques that could help overcome the issues it poses.
I don't see why an engineering problem isn't exciting. I don't see why people will try and think of ways to make RWD cars handle better, yet when FWD is uttered everyone covers their ears in horror. Why don't people want to be creative? Why don't people like to solve engineering tasks? It's not a mindset I like. I wish some people would keep an open mind and constantly strive to do new and exciting things rather than looking to the past and going down the "safe" route - successful or not this year, I support Nissan because they did just that.
- 7,601
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
Sure, but FWD is more prone to understeer by its nature. It's not that RWD is flawless, just that it's better. With FF, you're trying to get the same performance out of less tire (fronts only instead of all four when accelerating through a turn for example). It's a matter of personal preference, but I do like the dynamics of RWD over than of FWD. With everything else the same I'd rather have the power oversteer of RWD. While I do like performance cars, I don't want them to be completely docile, it takes away some of the fun. Of course, FWD can spin like a top with lift off oversteer, but that to me feels more like a performance issue than fun.
There is more than lateral grip at play. However, aero plays a rather large part in lateral grip. Your aero needs to balanced with your mechanical grip or you have problems. You'll make more total downforce if you can maximize the suction over the entire area of the car. FWD concentrating all the weight at the front means you end up sacrificing rear downforce, so in a way FWD could be considered a detriment to lateral grip. It's not so much at play in this car because of rule limitations. Though on that end, one could say the rules are creating less interesting cars.
Balance as in weight balance and moment of inertia. FF tends to pull all the weight forward, and if you're steering with the front wheels, they've got less of a moment arm to turn the car. It also contributes to the slidey nature of FWD when letting off throttle.
There are physical limits that engineering can't overcome, that's part of what defines the entire process. If any drivetrain could perform as well as any other, they would probably all be equally common. FWD is where it is today because it has traditionally been inferior at high level racing. Nissan seems to think that has changed (sort of since the car isn't really FF).
Where are you seeing a closed mind? I'm sure there is something to this as Nissan engineers know what they're doing. That doesn't mean they're bound to be successful. Novelty for the sake of it doesn't interest me. If this car does well then I think it's deserving of praise.
On the creativity front, it's not just about coming up with new ideas. Anyone can do that. Creativity is only worth while if have good ideas. It's pretty reasonable to be against FWD in general given its limitations. That doesn't mean you pretend that the status quo can't change, it just means that you've taken due caution against being pulled into something that will end up being fruitless.
- 23,800
- Philippines
I'd agree to the latter (more on the balance part... I assume you mean traction, though, rather than grip). But the former... well... depends on whether you need power-over to have fun, or whether you accept lift-off oversteer as a valid expression of automotive joy.
Personally, while I do like rear-wheel drive cars, I also see power-oversteer as just as much a detriment to performance as understeer. It makes you feel more heroic, yes, but it's definitely slower than actually having a car that simply sticks.
- 12,122
- Liverpool
- CARBOYXJR
Lift off oversteer isn't the only time they oversteer - you can be on full throttle in a FWD car and still have the back trying to swap round. Again, you can set a car up to do whatever you want. If the rear end of a FWD car coming round feels like a disadvantage but feels like "fun" in a RWD, that's simply double standards.
Longitudinal grip encompasses traction and braking performance. A FWD car can be twitchier under braes because of the lack of weight over the rear end, but it's not the biggest problem ever.
Only in very extreme cases, as you pointed out yourself:
The thing is, LMP1 regulations are about as open as you can find in motorsport... at all. We live in the real world - of course a completely unlimited formula would show exactly what the best solutions are, but that's not going to happen.
Thank you for repeating what I said.
The tradition argument is as empty as they come. If we kept looking at what worked in the past, we would have no innovation. We would be stuck. In reg sets where FWD cars are given a shot to perform equally against other platforms (there aren't many - let's remember that not having an advantage doesn't mean they're permanently disadvantaged - most rule sets disallow FWD by their nature, and possible advantages can't be exploited because of it), they don't do horribly.
In a good set of regulations, a FWD car will perform like a RWD car. Their advantages and disadvantages will balance out for the most part. If you look at series where they do compete equally, FWD cars often have better track records and more success than RWD cars. The numbers game can help, but it's not like every FWD racing car is a disaster - it's very much the opposite.
No, they simply have a sound grasp of motorsport engineering, and are confident that they have the expertise to overcome the challenges FWD poses.
In anyone who thinks that FWD is a joke - I mean, just look through this thread alone. You can't pretend that many "car enthusiasts" don't scoff at anything FWD. Anyone who just dismisses rather than trying, or wanting to try something new, has a closed mind.
At least they're actually trying - @GTP_Ingram's post covers everything succinctly.
A prime example of a closed mind. Simply dismissing an interesting engineering task as a "gimmick" or "novelty" because it's new is a tad pathetic, and it shows a lack of interest and understanding regarding the car as a whole.
Limitations are inherent in every platform. Limitations aren't FWD exclusive. Every platform also has advantages - anyone with an interest in engineering would understand what Nissan are attempting to exploit. Your whole post smacks of "I don't really know much about the car's design but it has some element of FWD so must be gimmicky and crap".
I agree - a concept based off blind guesses is a waste of money. But no manufacturer will do that, because they aren't stupid - I'd say that hasn't happened in professional motorsport at all since the first days of computers and wind tunnels. If a manufacturer does something, they do it because they've hired the right people, and they've done all the calculations, and everything appears to make sense.
- 12,122
- Liverpool
- CARBOYXJR
You can't power out and keep the slide going, so I get that not being able to powerslide might not be for some people, but the only way you can save a FWD car that starts to loop round is by dropping it a gear or two, counter steering and going full throttle.
I'll take NGTC cars as an example:
The car will naturally want to do that on you. That's why FWD racing cars on high speed tracks dance on the edge all he time. You could up the rear camber to always try and get more grip on the edge (at least these cars have more suspension travel than S2000 cars, the STCC C30 always looked like the rear wheels were on at a 45 degree angle
), but that's not going to be possible, because it would either a) cause too many punctures on a track like Thruxton, or b) negatively affect the car's handling at lower speeds. It looks like it would negatively affect your laptimes, but that is just how physics acts upon them and how the car is naturally fastest.
