GTR/GTR2 vs Grand Tourismo

[Jay]

I think GTR vs GT is still a bad comparison.

Race cars vs road cars, of course laws of physics don't change but these cars were built for complete differnce purposes. Race cars are designed to go as fast as possible over a short period of time, comfort, reliability (they dont need to last hundreds of thousands of miles), saftey (ease of driving will out crashing) etc are all comprimised drastically in the search of performance.
Spring rates are very high, roll bars are very stiff, ride height is very low, tyres are very temperature dependant (for the sake of performance with given conditions), small changes make a much larger difference, e.g. fuel weight requires anti roll bar adjustments other wise the car can get twichy etc etc etc

Road cars are designed for general use/consumption for people of all types and ages while lasting a very long time reliably with comfort and ease of driving. They are designed to be overstable not requiring aerodynamics in most cases to keep the car put, tyres fitted are a general tyre that doesn't change a whole deal though a wide range of temps and conditions, fuel weight , passenger weight, load weight, should not upset the car all that much.


In the end if I go for a burn in the hills in my car, then I was to hop into a full blown race car (eg touring car) it is a completely whole different ball game all together, first dip I would probably bounce across the road and hit a tree. I would have to sit and work out a suspension/chassis/tyre setup etc just to suit the road conditions. In a road car I could fly through the nurburgring then straight onto a flat circuit like Fugi with using the same tyres and setup, obviously not optimised for conditions but the car wont suddenly become dangerous to drive.


I have done tons of PC driving simming (LFS, GTR, GTR2, RFactor, Nascar 2003 racing season etc, aswell as many other types of simulation software) and I find as a road car driving game GT5P demo (haven't played full GT5P yet, but will tuesday) does a very good job at it, sure it is not perfect but it is a big improvement over GT4 which was a improvement over GT3. Some PC sim driving/racing games with road cars tend to make the cars very loose, much looser than all the cars I have driven in real life. Though without the feedback of a real car It is hard to tell exactly how close they are.

 

[Tenacious D]

GTR may have flaws but if you think that the driving physics are not good than eighter you dont know what you are talking about or you were just not really good at the game.

Well look, you have to consider what I said.

"The view of the track is bad... I constantly muffed turns and got quite sick of the warnings."

Okay, so when I'm approaching a turn at 175kph, what am I supposed to do if I can't see it very well?? Guess? That's what I ended up doing half the time. And of course half the time I guess wrong, and half of that there's not much I can do but go off track. And that's not conducive to winning any races.

"The cars were unruly and unresponsive, and felt quite floaty and disconnected."

I'm fighting a ton and then some of raging metal and rubber. It's not being a partner, it's being part of what I'm trying to conquer. It's not communicating with me well. It's not telling me clearly how much grip I have to work with. It's not helping much, it's part of the problem.

"And with cars so involved that even the radiator cap is tunable (?!) they needed a crew chief to help with all the million tuning options."

Any question about that one?

You PC racers that love your genre, more power to you. But it's definitely not a universal taste. And you know, no PC racer gives me the ability to collect cars like a racing playboy. I love cars, not just famous racing beasts. I love 240 hatchbacks, BMWs and Ferrari F40s. I love acquiring them and keeping them. And in Forza 2, I love race modding them and giving them unique racing liveries. That's what I was doing tonight in fact while dreaming of Prologue.

I love to drive with authority, not fish my way around a track, hoping I'm doing something right at 220kph. If Gran Turismo to you is a kiddy game for wusses, you know, that's your opinion. Don't get mad if I can't enjoy an overly complicated racer which makes every inch a struggle, and which to me is unnecessarily so.

And by the way, you might note that in my post you quoted, I didn't mention GTR physics once.

Edit: magnificent post by ViperGT above. I agree completely. At 4am it's hard to give a scholarly response.

But seriously, you'd be right to think I'm an idiot if I said that GTR had crap physics. But likewise, insisting that Gran Turismo gets nothing right is just as ridiculous. You really can drive a Supra in GT4, then go hop in a real one and do a pretty darn similar performance.

 

[Paulie Walnuts]

I think GTR vs GT is still a bad comparison.

*cut out the long quote*

Basicly what I was after is that when we know the boundaries of the game's physics, you can do a justified compare no matter what cars the two comparable games has because we are not comparing how the cars in the game performs but comparing how the games perform.

Of course there are obvious differences in a road car vs. race car like you said but in my opinion it's superficial to require that you need to have same car and same model (and even from the same year) to make any kind of compare between games. You did not say this, but this is often said.

Ideally - when the game has good physics engine, it could do pretty much any type of car when you would just supply data to it and the result would be a car that "simply works" as long as things that the car needs are there (e.g. downforce, slick tyres).

 

[McLaren]

Well look, you have to consider what I said.

"The view of the track is bad... I constantly muffed turns and got quite sick of the warnings."

Okay, so when I'm approaching a turn at 175kph, what am I supposed to do if I can't see it very well?? Guess? That's what I ended up doing half the time. And of course half the time I guess wrong, and half of that there's not much I can do but go off track. And that's not conducive to winning any races.

Did you try adjusting the seats?

"And with cars so involved that even the radiator cap is tunable (?!) they needed a crew chief to help with all the million tuning options."

Any question about that one?

I hope you're not considering this a flaw. This only allows for greater realism, & only supports the fact GTR2 is very realistic.

 

[Tenacious D]

@ McLaren

Yes, and there is a very flexible camera placement parameter. But it seemed like no matter where I put it, the view just didn't suit me. The cockpit view as it is with most games is pretty bad, so I stayed in trailcam view, but I felt like I was being towed in a glider. And no, the insane number of parameters wasn't a flaw at all, and I was assuming the defaults, like most serious racing games, were good enough to fit the driving style of the average driver. And I did poke around for a tuning tutorial at the 10tacle/Simbin site, but one didn't pop up right away. Plus I was pretty sure there wasn't a way to give me ultimate roadhugging grip, which was what I needed when I was flying up to a turn too fast or at the wrong angle.

And it wasn't just a struggle to get a handle on things, it was infuriating! I'd think I was getting a handle on things, and then a car would pass me up. It was a different experience in the GT300 Class (?). With lower powered cars, the track wasn't a series of traps just waiting to nail me, and that was getting fun. But then the Starforce began mucking with my PC and I'd had enough. Out it went.

Why Live For Speed wouldn't install right, I haven't a clue. Maybe it was a lingering Starforce issue. But it kind of scared me when it almost seemed to give my DF Pro a virus! For a while it was acting kind of strangely on the PS2. Being a hobby project, I decided I'd leave all the fun to those it wasn't giving any trouble.

But... honestly, both Forza and Gran Turismo get so many things right, and very well right too, it just seems quibbling for the PC guys to sneer at them. Okay, you can't lock up the brakes in GT4 or induce a spin except with lots of work, and understeer is too pronounced. Okay so in Forza the yawing is wrong, the grip envelope is rather mushy and oversteer is too strong. Flaws aside, they do feel a lot like you're driving a car, and they sure are pretty. And the view of the road is just superb in these games, especially Gran Turismo. I don't know why, but it's really a sweet benefit.

 

[Wolfe]

Of course there are obvious differences in a road car vs. race car like you said but in my opinion it's superficial to require that you need to have same car and same model (and even from the same year) to make any kind of compare between games. You did not say this, but this is often said.

Too often. 👍

It's kinda like comparing two different pages from two different children's coloring books -- the illustration may be completely different, but you can still look at how well each child stayed inside the lines.

Ideally - when the game has good physics engine, it could do pretty much any type of car when you would just supply data to it and the result would be a car that "simply works" as long as things that the car needs are there (e.g. downforce, slick tyres).

Exactly.

 

[daan]

Yes, and there is a very flexible camera placement parameter. But it seemed like no matter where I put it, the view just didn't suit me. The cockpit view as it is with most games is pretty bad, so I stayed in trailcam view, but I felt like I was being towed in a glider.

I know what you're saying there. There are some cars in GTR that I can't get a good cockpit view from either. You were either too low or too near the side (looking at a huge A-pillar), or the mirror was too big and obstructing your view.

And the chasecam doesn't really work either.

 

[kikie]

I hate chasecams. I sound like one of the smurfs.

 

[Paulie Walnuts]

Why Live For Speed wouldn't install right, I haven't a clue. Maybe it was a lingering Starforce issue.

Did not install? What was exactly the problem? The installer automatically extracts the files and then you start LFS.exe. It can not be more simple than that is. Or did you mean the game did not start?

And LFS has nothing to do with Starforce. Altough Starforce has caused many many weird problems but I doubt it caused this problem.

 

[Patrik]

Offtopic: Just want you to know that the game is called Gran Turismo, not Grand Tourismo

 

[waterpoloinc]

I just finished GT5 P. and I must say the game is so far very good. First of all it is beautiful to look at and the details are amazing like moving grass and reflections. The AI has improved allot since its predecessors and the physics come much closer to the real deal as well. Only the BMW M3 fell short of power and agility. The game is not that hard to beat but I am looking forward to the online feature. At some parts of the game you can SEE that it is only a "demo" . For example the spectators at Daytona raceway are 2D. But this will probably be fixed. The cockpits are beautiful done and everything now runs smoothly. The only thing were I think the game really needs allot allot of improvement is the sound area. The sound fails with every car to really deliver this feeling that makes the hair in the back of your neck stand up.
But oh well.
Overall amazing and makes me wonder what other amazing things PD may deliver.
P.S. Comes closer to a sim than I expected!

 

[beterhans]

by reading this topic, i think i got the point.
GTR target on Racing.
GT target on Driving.

but i thing GT is a hybird. it's also Racing. and you have to stay on race track,
fight your opponent.

if it's driving. i think PD should stop the race track thinks
and start to build a world.... have city, high way, country road, traffic lights.traffic.full detail in car view, and operable.etc..... just like Microsoft flight simulator does

 

[Fruitcake]

Why is this thread still have the D in the title?

 

[McLaren]

by reading this topic, i think i got the point.
GTR target on Racing.
GT target on Driving.

but i thing GT is a hybird. it's also Racing. and you have to stay on race track,
fight your opponent.

if it's driving. i think PD should stop the race track thinks
and start to build a world.... have city, high way, country road, traffic lights.traffic.full detail in car view, and operable.etc..... just like Microsoft flight simulator does

Why do I strangely support the 2nd idea?

In seriousness, racing is just added to the game to give it a purpose and for you to do something. Of course, PD's answer would be, to see how the car does against others.

 

[juniordee]

Why is this thread still have the D in the title?

Grand Tourismo


And he says he's a big fan...

 

[BreakerOhio]

GTR is more for Race Prepped cars. How I see it is ...GTR has cars that are stripped of any interior parts and designed solely for racing. It does not simulate dealership purchased cars like Gran Turismo. I think if thought of it this way more, it will help you recognize the simulation purpose of each game.

GTR is good for simulating racing prepped cars for racing. It simulates the sound and engine notes of race cars and the experience of driving a race car. Barebones interior, racing grip physics. Tight and punishing handling physics.

Gran Turismo allows you to test drive cars from the dealership on race tracks and city courses. Gran Turismo expands on that by allowing us to race these cars and in a sense that's where it seems to get mixed with other "racing" games. This is a racing game, but unlike GTR, it allows us to start with cars we'd buy from a dealership and custimize and tune them for racing. That is the beauty of Gran Turismo.

I personally enjoy Gran Turismo for this aspect of being able to drive cars the way they handle coming from the manufacture to the dealership floor rather than playing GTR 1 and GTR 2 where it's just straight out race cars.

 

[Tenacious D]

What BreakerO said. Post of the week.

 

[polyphony_fan]

OK, man, let me explain something about Gran Turismo: physics in game is a complete bull****, AI is very weak, cars drive nowhere near how they do it in real life.

It's a very nice racing game for unexpirienced gamers that has nothing to do with words "real" or "simulator" and can't be comparable to LFS, GTR, Forza 2 and other sims.

Huge variety of gameplay, gorgeous replays, bunch of cars - here Gran Turismo ahead of any racing game. But if you are hardcore racing fan - you will be very dissapointed.

 

[unv412]

OK, man, let me explain something about Gran Turismo: physics in game is a complete bull****, AI is very weak, cars drive nowhere near how they do it in real life.

It's a very nice racing game for unexpirienced gamers that has nothing to do with words "real" or "simulator" and can't be comparable to LFS, GTR, Forza 2 and other sims.

Huge variety of gameplay, gorgeous replays, bunch of cars - here Gran Turismo ahead of any racing game. But if you are hardcore racing fan - you will be very dissapointed.

is this an opinion based on playin GT5p or GT4????

 

[skingg]

^ I would think its GT4.

 

[RC45]

But if you are hardcore racing fan - you will be very dissapointed.

Actually - if you are a "hardcore" racing fan you would have a copy of GT1/2/3/4 and 5, Enthusia, Forza11/2, PGR1/2/3/4 on your shelf alongside all the GP Legends. SCGT, Viper Racing, GP1/2/3/4, NFS1/2/3/4/Porsche Unleashed, NASCAR 1/2/3/4, IndyCar1/2/3, GTR, GTR2. GT Legends, rFactor etc.. (note I left out NetKar and LFS as in the end they look crap )

See - just like a "hardcore" car fan can talk about and enjoy a stock Mazda Miata in one breath, then wax lyrical about a Countach LP400 in another and get excited about a Z06 in the next - so also does the true "hardcore" game fan enjoy a number of genres

 

[Stevisiov]

well said 👍

 

[Tenacious D]

👍 Indeed.

OK, man, let me explain something about Gran Turismo: physics in game is a complete bull****, AI is very weak, cars drive nowhere near how they do it in real life....
Huge variety of gameplay, gorgeous replays, bunch of cars - here Gran Turismo ahead of any racing game. But if you are hardcore racing fan - you will be very dissapointed.

Er... you're welcome to your opinion, and I agree that Prologue could use a tweak here and there, but I really think you're heavily overstating things. And I, as many of us here are, am not disappointed. In fact I'm having the time of my life.

There is a year to go before GT5 hits the store shelves, at least, so let's see how things go. Just keep this in mind. If most of those games you mentioned came out with a "demo" a year early, they'd have gokart physics and look like a bunch of gray boxes.

 

[F1GTR]

note I left out NetKar and LFS as in the end they look crap

Whaaa? No hardcore race sim fan would leave out LFS. Accurate physics and a great online community >>>>>>>> graphics, anyday.

 

[Stevisiov]

OK, man, let me explain something about Gran Turismo: physics in game is a complete bull****, AI is very weak, cars drive nowhere near how they do it in real life.

It's a very nice racing game for unexpirienced gamers that has nothing to do with words "real" or "simulator" and can't be comparable to LFS, GTR, Forza 2 and other sims.

Huge variety of gameplay, gorgeous replays, bunch of cars - here Gran Turismo ahead of any racing game. But if you are hardcore racing fan - you will be very dissapointed.

I love the way you chucked forza 2 in there as a token gesture, lets get a few things straight, when it comes to simulation LFS, and GTR are right up there, lfs is a little more versatile than GTR, but GTR does what it is is designed to do. Lumping forza 2 up there as one of the great simulators is a little niave, i am not certain where your predudice comes from agaisnt GT, but the GT, certainly the new prologue has physics on a similar level to forza 2 bertter/worse whos to say I am sure it is going to be subject of discussion when the final GT5 is released. I am not saying forza 2 is bad, but placing it amoung the hardcore PC sims is a little hopefull, its good but its not great, much like Gran Turismo for that matter.

If you really feel the physics in Gran Tursimo are "Bull****", then perhaps you could help us misguided ignorant bunch of Gran Turismo fanboys, where exactly the GT5P physics fall short of such great simulations as Forza2. I of course can only speak of the demo but from that I can see the issues with GT5P physics-wise are fairlym obvious but perhaps you can share what you think the real issues are and how it could be improved as you obviously already know alot about the subject.

 

[RC45]

Whaaa? No hardcore race sim fan would leave out LFS. Accurate physics and a great online community >>>>>>>> graphics, anyday.

Well - after you have so many PC titles on your shelf from literally the last 2 decades and you see something like LFS come along, (but then after what is it 4 years now??) and still the team refuses to get commercial backing to take it to the next level, what's the point?

If I want "rewal" I would go drive "real" (even in the days when all I ahd to play with was a 1973 900cc Mini.) every once in a while the "computer game" needs to be a release - and LFS may have semi-accurate physics, but the same old same old is getting just that - old now

I actually have more fun ripping a few laps in Viper Racing than LFS - at least Viper Racing still sounds awesome after all these years (has it really been 7 years now?)

 

[Wolfe]

You still have fun playing Viper Racing, despite it being "the same old same old," and we still have fun playing Live for Speed, despite it being "the same old same old" (though it really isn't with continuing updates and content added in). I don't see your point.

It's fine if you really don't like the game, RC45, but as F1GTR said, Live for Speed's physics prowess and smooth online play cannot be overlooked.

 

[RC45]

You still have fun playing Viper Racing, despite it being "the same old same old," and we still have fun playing Live for Speed, despite it being "the same old same old" (though it really isn't with continuing updates and content added in). I don't see your point.

I sent moey to the LFS folks very early on - with the hopes that they would have done more than they have.

You don't have to see the point, but the point is after all this time, and all the money contributed LFS still fails in the important arena of user ambience - and user community addons.

That is the biggest let down - physics schmisics - they miss the biggest point of have a PC title - community content.

It's fine if you really don't like the game, RC45, but as F1GTR said, Live for Speed's physics prowess and smooth online play cannot be overlooked.

Actually they can be overlooked - long after the "realness" wears off, you are left with nothing new.

At least with rFactor (rela physics or not) you can let your hair down with a few laps of any one of many more tracks and cars

I mean is so many of you guys want "real" that bad, go rent a Mazda 6 for a weekend

But we are way off topic now - this is of course a Gran Turismo forum - the latest title people love to hate

 

[BigDuke6]

Actually - if you are a "hardcore" racing fan you would have a copy of GT1/2/3/4 and 5, Enthusia, Forza11/2, PGR1/2/3/4 on your shelf alongside all the GP Legends. SCGT, Viper Racing, GP1/2/3/4, NFS1/2/3/4/Porsche Unleashed, NASCAR 1/2/3/4, IndyCar1/2/3, GTR, GTR2. GT Legends, rFactor etc.. (note I left out NetKar and LFS as in the end they look crap )

See - just like a "hardcore" car fan can talk about and enjoy a stock Mazda Miata in one breath, then wax lyrical about a Countach LP400 in another and get excited about a Z06 in the next - so also does the true "hardcore" game fan enjoy a number of genres

You forgot all the waiting we did in the 90's for the continued delays relating to the Geoff Crammond "Grand Prix" series games!!!!

 

[Wolfe]

...physics schmisics...

...after the "realness" wears off...

Are you a racing sim fan or a racing game fan?

LFS still fails in the important arena of...user community addons.

At least with rFactor (rela physics or not) you can let your hair down with a few laps of any one of many more tracks and cars

Funny thing; I played rFactor for maybe a week and got sick of the wild variations in quality in the add-ons. The fact that the game devours system resources like crazy, the difficulty in getting the game set up the way you want, and the spotty physics didn't help, either.

Most other PC sims are the same story, while Live for Speed is refreshingly consistent. I'm looking forward to the rumored day when ScaViEr will open up LFS to modding with both anticipation and trepidation.

To reiterate my point, it's fine if you think Live for Speed gets old. But such a statement is 100% subjective, and doesn't address the possibility that someone might say the same thing of many of the games you've mentioned. The reason why I don't understand your point is because I don't understand why LFS is any different from the rest of them.