Guns

  • Thread starter Talentless
  • 5,167 comments
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Which position on firearms is closest to your own?

  • I support complete illegality of civilian ownership

    Votes: 120 15.5%
  • I support strict control.

    Votes: 244 31.5%
  • I support moderate control.

    Votes: 164 21.2%
  • I support loose control.

    Votes: 81 10.5%
  • I oppose control.

    Votes: 139 17.9%
  • I am undecided.

    Votes: 27 3.5%

  • Total voters
    775
You are comparing a colony to a well established first world nation of 300 million.
And you are using modern terms to define something written over 200 years ago. You are applying the definition you like best and saying it applies to something that did not exist when the law was created.

They had to do it that way under those circumstances, they needed men to fight. Of course they didn't have specialized military training for the American militia during the Revolt.
Is this you admitting that what was meant at the time of the writing is not what you are applying to it today?

I'm talking in terms of today, where there are no more rag tag militias like you've just described for me. The amendment calls for a right to bear arms for an well regulated militia which we would call the national guard today.
Yet the dictionary still has the "all able-bodied citizens" definition. You are choosing to define militia in the way you want it to be. To make the law mean what you claim requires an amendment, not a difference in terminology over time.

Civilians with guns is a bad idea,
Completely unrelated to the definition of militia.
 
Why study a specific community, when you can look at a whole country? Here's one we prepared earlier http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/20...hooting_could_australia_s_laws_provide_a.html

Nice strawman - now answer why Chicago is violent cesspool drowning in gun violence when none of the surrounding cities or states show similar behaviour?

BTW, having friends and relatives that emigrated from South Africa to Australia, all have commented over the years just how violent and angry Australian communities really are.

The 'friendly Aussie' dispensation belies a tendency to be very angry drivers prone to road rage and many hair trigger brawlers and angry thugs muggings and attacks are rampant. Violent petty crime is rampant.

And remember, these are people that emigrated from some cities that have long been known as 'murder capitals of the world'

But nice try never the less.
 
Nice strawman - now answer why Chicago is violent cesspool drowning in gun violence when none of the surrounding cities or states show similar behaviour?

BTW, having friends and relatives that emigrated from South Africa to Australia, all have commented over the years just how violent and angry Australian communities really are.

The 'friendly Aussie' dispensation belies a tendency to be very angry drivers prone to road rage and many hair trigger brawlers and angry thugs muggings and attacks are rampant. Violent petty crime is rampant.

And remember, these are people that emigrated from some cities that have long been known as 'murder capitals of the world'

But nice try never the less.

You are delusional and clearly have no intention of reading any evidence when it's presented to you.

I don't think there are any crime statistics where Australia is considered worse than the US or SA. If there is, please present it. Heresay from 'friends' that are bad drivers is not evidence.
 
So how as Australia's murder rate affected by the gun ban? Surely it experienced a significant drop if one believes that removing guns from a society helps it's murder rate.

From the article posted "homicides by firearm plunged 59 percent between 1995 and 2006, with no corresponding increase in non-firearm-related homicides. The drop in suicides by gun was even steeper: 65 percent. Studies found a close correlation between the sharp declines and the gun buybacks. Robberies involving a firearm also dropped significantly. Meanwhile, home invasions did not increase, contrary to fears that firearm ownership is needed to deter such crimes. But here’s the most stunning statistic. In the decade before the Port Arthur massacre, there had been 11 mass shootings in the country. There hasn’t been a single one in Australia since. "
 
So what's an assault rifle again?

IMO, it's really an amorphous term.

But, in general, it's a smaller or medium caliber shorter-barreled rifle or carbine, like the AR-15 and AK-47. It needn't be fully automatic.

Many versions of the widely used varmint rifle, the Ruger Mini-14, could be considered an assault rifle.

7.62 x 39, .223 Remington, and 5.56 x 45 are generally the right cartridges for this type of weapon.
 
I'm aware of that page. I'm asking you, since you're talking about ignoring evidence when it doesn't suit your view. On just the last page you misused the term to ask a meaningless hypothetical, and ignored multiple explanations why your point didn't mean anything.


You want to give lectures about intellectual dishonesty then you might want to start practicing it yourself first.

You lecture about intellectual dishonesty, yet ask pointless questions about assault rifles?

Your link goes to a payware site.

Homicide rate in Australia has been in decline for decades https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_l...ing_the_effects_of_firearms_laws_in_Australia
 
You lecture about intellectual dishonesty,
Only when people put on airs of actually practicing it.


yet ask pointless questions about assault rifles?
It's not pointless just because you don't want to acknowledge the point. You used the term. You defended the term after multiple people pointed out the problem with your point (instead of actually responding to what they said, unsurprisingly). Is your second attempt at not answering the question supposed to be taken as an indication that you don't know what the term means, or even what the term you meant to use means (since you didn't answer the question about that part earlier either)?
 
Only when people put on airs of actually practicing it.



It's not pointless just because you don't want to acknowledge the point. You used the term. You defended the term after multiple people pointed out the problem with your point (instead of actually responding to what they said, unsurprisingly). Is your second attempt at not answering the question supposed to be taken as an indication that you don't know what the term means, or even what the term you meant to use means (since you didn't answer the question about that part earlier either)?

I'm not as keen to discuss the semantics as you are. My guess is you try and sidestep the real point of discussion by waving your arms and dancing around perceived misnomers - when it suits you.
 
You are delusional and clearly have no intention of reading any evidence when it's presented to you.

I don't think there are any crime statistics where Australia is considered worse than the US or SA. If there is, please present it. Heresay from 'friends' that are bad drivers is not evidence.

No, I am telling you people who immigrate to Australia (and some that immigrated before 1996) notice how angry and violent the Aussies really are - very quick to bring fists to bear over the tiniest perceived injustice.

Australians are not as jovial and carefree as they like to portray themselves (yourselves).

I notice how you assumed the friends where 'bad drivers' and deserved to be berated and road raged at - that is the EXACT trait that male Australians seem to bring to bear to most social interactions - lots of chest beating and manly bravado and testosterone.

Just WTF is it you all have to prove and be so angry about?

The point is that all banning guns did was big headline shootings - it did nothing temper an already violent culture.

And losing ability to defend oneself in a generally violent culture just to prevent mass shootings is asinine.

The statistical probability of being involved in a mass shooting in the USA is very slim.

If there are 300 million + guns in civilian hands in the USA and 5,000 where used in mass shootings every year that's 0.0016% of all civilian owned firearms being used in mass shooting.

I am ok with those numbers and I live here thanks - why are you so worried about gun violence in USA anyway?
 
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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

One could argue the militias of today are the state guardsmen and national guard. If the amendment was read how it should have always been only people who have served in the national guard should be allowed to have guns. Not the populous. Giving everyone a gun protects no one.

One would be incorrect in that argument. There is no point in rehashing the "well regulated millitia" language here. The US supreme court already did a fantastic job of it, putting in hundreds (or thousands) of man hours pouring over all of the relevant text and determining the period-correct interpretation and reading the surrounding writings to understand the context that the amendment was written under. It is their job to properly construe the language and they did a phenomenal job of it in the DC vs Heller majority opinion.

Everyone who is interested in understanding the 2nd Amendment should at least peruse this important opinion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller
The Supreme Court held:[43]

(1) The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. Pp. 2–53.
(a) The Amendment’s prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause. The operative clause’s text and history demonstrate that it connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms. Pp. 2–22.
(b) The prefatory clause comports with the Court’s interpretation of the operative clause. The “militia” comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. The Antifederalists feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in order to disable this citizens’ militia, enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule. The response was to deny Congress power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear arms, so that the ideal of a citizens’ militia would be preserved. Pp. 22–28.
(c) The Court’s interpretation is confirmed by analogous arms-bearing rights in state constitutions that preceded and immediately followed the Second Amendment. Pp. 28–30.
(d) The Second Amendment’s drafting history, while of dubious interpretive worth, reveals three state Second Amendment proposals that unequivocally referred to an individual right to bear arms. Pp. 30–32.
(e) Interpretation of the Second Amendment by scholars, courts and legislators, from immediately after its ratification through the late 19th century also supports the Court’s conclusion. Pp. 32–47.
(f) None of the Court’s precedents forecloses the Court’s interpretation. Neither United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542 , nor Presser v. Illinois, 116 U. S. 252 , refutes the individual-rights interpretation. United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174 , does not limit the right to keep and bear arms to militia purposes, but rather limits the type of weapon to which the right applies to those used by the militia, i.e., those in common use for lawful purposes.
(2) Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. Pp. 54–56.
(3) The handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement (as applied to self-defense) violate the Second Amendment. The District’s total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense. Under any of the standards of scrutiny the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this prohibition – in the place where the importance of the lawful defense of self, family, and property is most acute – would fail constitutional muster. Similarly, the requirement that any lawful firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock makes it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional. Because Heller conceded at oral argument that the D. C. licensing law is permissible if it is not enforced arbitrarily and capriciously, the Court assumes that a license will satisfy his prayer for relief and does not address the licensing requirement. Assuming he is not disqualified from exercising Second Amendment rights, the District must permit Heller to register his handgun and must issue him a license to carry it in the home. Pp. 56–64.
The Opinion of the Court, delivered by Justice Scalia, was joined by Chief Justice John G. Roberts, Jr. and by Justices Anthony M. Kennedy, Clarence Thomas and Samuel A. Alito Jr.[44]

From the article posted "homicides by firearm plunged 59 percent between 1995 and 2006, with no corresponding increase in non-firearm-related homicides. The drop in suicides by gun was even steeper: 65 percent. Studies found a close correlation between the sharp declines and the gun buybacks. Robberies involving a firearm also dropped significantly. Meanwhile, home invasions did not increase, contrary to fears that firearm ownership is needed to deter such crimes. But here’s the most stunning statistic. In the decade before the Port Arthur massacre, there had been 11 mass shootings in the country. There hasn’t been a single one in Australia since. "

So weird, the US has a huge plunge in violent crime during that time period too!

Violent_Crime_in_the_United_States.png
 
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@jimipitbull Save your breath. In the eyes of RC45, the only valid example of a place with tight gun laws is Chicago. All other states and countries with tight guns laws have low gun crime for reasons unrelated to the gun laws.
 
I'm not as keen to discuss the semantics as you are.
That's three times. Perhaps don't bring up a point if you don't know what the words you are using mean.

My guess is you try and sidestep the real point of discussion by waving your arms and dancing around perceived misnomers

You mean like when multiple people respond to a point you tried to make, and your rebuttal is to object to throwaway lines about your word use instead of anything said. Those four guns I posted that you also ignored. What's the difference between them that makes them more or less dangerous than any other one in that post?
 
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That's three times. Perhaps don't bring up a point if you don't know what the words you are using mean.



You mean like when multiple people respond to a point you tried to make, and your rebuttal is to object to throwaway lines about your word use instead of anything said. Those four guns I posted that you also ignored. What's the difference between them that makes them more or less dangerous than any other one in that post?

The difference between those guns has no impact on my argument. As said, you are dancing around perceived misnomers.
 
From the article posted "homicides by firearm plunged 59 percent between 1995 and 2006, with no corresponding increase in non-firearm-related homicides. The drop in suicides by gun was even steeper: 65 percent. Studies found a close correlation between the sharp declines and the gun buybacks. Robberies involving a firearm also dropped significantly. Meanwhile, home invasions did not increase, contrary to fears that firearm ownership is needed to deter such crimes. But here’s the most stunning statistic. In the decade before the Port Arthur massacre, there had been 11 mass shootings in the country. There hasn’t been a single one in Australia since. "

Ok, since I got a thumbs-up earlier I figure I should elaborate - not that you can't like my post, but I want to make sure I'm being clear. Correlation is not causation. The US experienced a massive decline across the board in crime during the same time period without banning anything. So if you're attributing these things to a lack of gun ownership, you're effectively rebutted by US statistics.
 
Ok, since I got a thumbs-up earlier I figure I should elaborate - not that you can't like my post, but I want to make sure I'm being clear. Correlation is not causation. The US experienced a massive decline across the board in crime during the same time period without banning anything. So if you're attributing these things to a lack of gun ownership, you're effectively rebutted by US statistics.

Not really, as the murder/manslaughter rate didn't fall all that much compared to Australia. And the fact Australia hasn't had a mass shooting incident since the gun law reforms. I wonder what else happened over that period though, to trigger a drop everywhere.
 
And you are using modern terms to define something written over 200 years ago. You are applying the definition you like best and saying it applies to something that did not exist when the law was created.


Is this you admitting that what was meant at the time of the writing is not what you are applying to it today?


Yet the dictionary still has the "all able-bodied citizens" definition. You are choosing to define militia in the way you want it to be. To make the law mean what you claim requires an amendment, not a difference in terminology over time.


Completely unrelated to the definition of militia.

That's just terrible then. There is no hope for this country after all, because according to your definition everyone is part of the milita(not really) and everyone has a right to a gun unless they are bat**** crazy(to fail a psych test you must be bat****) or outright violent.
 
Not really, as the murder/manslaughter rate didn't fall all that much compared to Australia. And the fact Australia hasn't had a mass shooting incident since the gun law reforms. I wonder what else happened over that period though, to trigger a drop everywhere.

It's actually a quite sizeable drop, you're getting thrown off by the scaling of the other numbers. The reason it looks small is because there are fewer of them. The fact that Australia hasn't had a mass shooting incident since then is irrelevant to me. I don't care as much about how many people died at once as I do the number of people killed. And I don't care as much about the number of people killed as I do about human rights.
 
It's actually a quite sizeable drop, you're getting thrown off by the scaling of the other numbers. The reason it looks small is because there are fewer of them. The fact that Australia hasn't had a mass shooting incident since then is irrelevant to me. I don't care as much about how many people died at once as I do the number of people killed. And I don't care as much about the number of people killed as I do about human rights.

Universal human rights are somewhat different to whats written in the American constitution. The right to life is on the UN declaration of human rights though.
 
The difference between those guns has no impact on my argument.
Except it does. Those words have distinct meanings. Those distinct meanings do not cease to exist just because you've got so little interest in actually making a point that you don't care what the difference is. The first two guns posted are legally just rifles. The New York ones in particular generally can't even be converted to a form that would classify them as assault weapons, nevermind assault rifles. The third one is what would be classified as an assault weapon under typical United States gun control legislation, because an assault weapon generally just means "scary looking things to ban" and that one has many of them. This is also important, because assault weapons are what the link you posted here:
Was actually talking about, and even that link uses the two words (assault weapon and assault rifle) interchangeably when they still aren't the same thing.



The last one (the assault rifle) is the only one that is notably different in function from the other three. This is even more important, since the last one is the one you actually brought up. Here, let me help you:
How about a criminal with assault rifles
An assault rifle would be something that dramatically outclasses the power of a handgun to the point that a confrontation could be a no win scenario. An assault rifle has the combination of powerful ammunition, large magazine size and controllable firing rate that can make pulling a handgun on someone with one merely highlight you as a target to be shot first. This is somewhat moot, though, because:
that were purchased legally.
An assault rifle is not something that you can purchase legally. They have been effectively outlawed since 1986, and they had already been extremely strictly controlled since 1934. Anyone with the resources (meaning money, knowledge of someone who already has one and lots of political connections to push it through) to buy one legally could already have bought quite a few black market AK47s to use instead if he wanted to shoot up some place. Put another way:
What if assault rifles were restricted for military use only
They are. So your point, assuming that you meant to say the term you used, has no meaning, because the handful of people who actually legally own guns that are dramatically more powerful than anything a handgun owner (be it assault rifles, or automatic rifles, or submachine guns, or machine guns) could feasibly defend herself against never actually commit crimes with them. And if you didn't mean to say the term you used incorrectly, there were already several posts made in response to your initial one that you've already ignored in favor of making a limp-wristed attempt to defend your word use/change the subject.





On that topic:
As said, you are dancing around perceived misnomers.
Like this, then:
It's quite amusing that courts of law can use what some here call 'made up terms'




And, once again, learn what words mean.
 
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Just in case any the anti-gunners wants to have another go at this one:

like Chicago right? I want you to google something for me, a map of the continental United States. All you have to is look at the states directly next to Chicago. Wisconsin to the north and Indiana to the east. Dosent take a genius to see why Chicagos ban on guns dosent work

*hooked*....

**reeling in**

Yeah - like Chicago.

So.... the reason the by now famously successful Chicago gun ban doesn't work is because the states around Chicago don't have gun bans???

Really?

So by your logic ALL Illinois cities should be similar bloodbaths to Chicago - right?

In fact, by your logic all the surrounding states should also be bloodbaths like Chicago - right?

So, again, let's for argument sake assume your last bolded statement had ay merit...

Would we be permitted to use the real world results of strict gun laws on a specific community and the level of crime in said community committed with guns as a yardstick for the success of legally disarming people in that community?

What I would like to establish is, when we have a specific community with very strict and restrictive gun laws in place, do we see a correlation between the lower gun crime stats and the severe gun restrictions in this community when compared to a community with less restrictive gun laws?
 
Just in case any the anti-gunners wants to have another go at this one:



*hooked*....

**reeling in**

Yeah - like Chicago.

So.... the reason the by now famously successful Chicago gun ban doesn't work is because the states around Chicago don't have gun bans???

Really?

So by your logic ALL Illinois cities should be similar bloodbaths to Chicago - right?

In fact, by your logic all the surrounding states should also be bloodbaths like Chicago - right?

So, again, let's for argument sake assume your last bolded statement had ay merit...

Would we be permitted to use the real world results of strict gun laws on a specific community and the level of crime in said community committed with guns as a yardstick for the success of legally disarming people in that community?

What I would like to establish is, when we have a specific community with very strict and restrictive gun laws in place, do we see a correlation between the lower gun crime stats and the severe gun restrictions in this community when compared to a community with less restrictive gun laws?

There is no city in Illinois that even compares to Chicago. Not in population, size, economics, nothing. The Capitol is tiny compared to Chicago. Chicago might as well be the Capitol. Now add a population of over 3 million, add the gang problem that has always been here(in present day take away all the gang leaders, they cut the head off the snake in the 90s and all the order in the gangs) I find it funny you are using Chicago as a reason not to have a gun ban when there is whole countries to look at for better results. I guess you need your talking points though.
 
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