Guns

  • Thread starter Talentless
  • 5,167 comments
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Which position on firearms is closest to your own?

  • I support complete illegality of civilian ownership

    Votes: 120 15.5%
  • I support strict control.

    Votes: 244 31.5%
  • I support moderate control.

    Votes: 164 21.2%
  • I support loose control.

    Votes: 81 10.5%
  • I oppose control.

    Votes: 139 17.9%
  • I am undecided.

    Votes: 27 3.5%

  • Total voters
    775
As you know, I'm in a gun argument on another forum. Below is a transcript from one of the major recent points in said argument. I just want make sure that I am debating in a correct way (or, more realistically, I'm asking for help on where to go after this). I'm fairly sure I'll know how the person will react, so I'm just looking to make sure I am going the right way with this.



Toronado
Person
Well for one thing, I was alive in 1996... and can remember the Dunblane school shootings very well... and I can remember the pro gun protests very well, mainly because I used to live in the countryside (A small village called Keygnham just outside of Hull near to a charming seaside town called Hornsea) and thats where the majority of the protests occured (in the countryside) since farmers went ape at the fact they would soon see their firearms restricted or removed.

Yet when it was passed... absolutely nobody gave a s---, because everyone knew it was the right thing to do.
And I was right! There are some major flaws with your argument. The first two have already been covered in the debunking of your other comparisons (Time of protest and failure to take into account how different the two countries are), so technically trying to blanket the reactions as a result of this onto reactions is already fallacy. Furthermore, you shot yourself in the foot simply by saying that the only one that were bothered were country folk. That already shows that your country caring about guns and the US caring about guns are two polar opposites. I believe the number of gun owners in the US is close to 1/6th. Far and away more than some farmers in the countryside. The scale would have voided the comparison all by itself. When combined with the other points and the historical precedent, none of that (the protesting, the ban itself or its conversion to indefinite enforcement) applies at all to American beliefs, values or political paths.
So I will bring you back to the 21st Amendment mentioned earlier. It repealed Prohibition. You know, Prohibition? The only piece of legislation ever attempted on such a grand scale as what you are calling for to do with guns, and also both the only one to be completely repealed and the only Amendment that strictly stripped away rights from the people. You do know how that ended up, yes? Mad protests, incredible disrespect for the law, the rise of organized crime in America and the increase in smuggling. It stopped nothing. So maybe now you see what I meant by problems it would introduce while not solving the problems it is supposed to?
And even that example isn't accurate, as even the legendary Volstead Act pales in comparison to taking away one of the freedoms established in the Bill of Rights. If an Amendment was passed that repealed the second, speaking as an American, the backlash would be greater than any ever seen in this country, barring maybe Vietnam. Any politician that even thought of introducing a bill probably won't get reelected again.
And unless you can come up with an example that occured in Britian that would apply to the U.S. (which none of yours do, for reasons already stated), you really can't say that won't be the case. The US is not the UK, so stop acting like it is.





Also @ Danoff, thank you for the links.
 
I honestly need to back out of this argument as I am living in it . I must escort our employee's to their vehicles and expose myself to being shot 12 hours a day .

I dont see how I can be objective right now .
 
It's still fairly rediculous in my opinion that you require no training, no education and that there is no sense of resposibility put upon these people who are supposedly "protecting democracy".

However, if we take a look at Switzerland, where everyone does military (or a civil) service and the personel are even given guns to take home! So why are the gun homicide rates so low in Switzerland? Because these people really do have the ability to protect their nation, because they are trained, and they do know their resposibilities.

People in some parts of our country don't need to be educated on the use of firearms. Owning, using and shooting firearms has been past down through the generations. It's deeply rooted in our history. This is what foreigners and anti-gunners are so ignorant too and no matter how many times we say it, we get ignored.

I could explain it all to you, but I have a feeling you just wont understand. I strongly believe that anti-gunners have such a strong conviction to their belief that they wont stop lying about or understand the true history of firearms.

But, as far as California is concerned, in order to obtain a firearm, you must pass a Hunters Safety Course and for a handgun a Handgun Safety Course. Click below for details.

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/huntered/faq.html#online

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/hscsg.pdf?PHPSESSID=7842ea4749a2c38ba14b0a589b67b704
 
Outlawing handguns in the U.S. will result in the criminals being the only ones who have them, and the rest of us will have nothing with which to defend ourselves.

And yes, it really is as simple as that. These people are CRIMINALS. Do you really think, if they've already set their minds on robbing a convenience store, or killing someone, that they're really going to give a rat's ass about some other law that says they're not supposed to have a gun?

Oddly enough, gun violence is less of a problem in areas where citizens are allowed to carry them. In a heavily-restricted area, a criminal is more apt to use the weapon when he's more confident that he won't be shot himself. Such crimes go down siginficantly when there's a higher chance the cashier is going to pull a shotgun and blow your damn head off when you try to hold him up.

Casio, you asked why the U.S. doesn't outlaw guns? Read up on our history a bit. We were founded via rebellion, where armed citizens revolted and won their independance. And those same people, in the Constitution that governs everything we do, said in plain text that every one of us have the right to bear arms. And they'll have one hell of a time trying to convince people that they suddenly don't have that right anymore.

No one will ever convince me to give up my weapons. Ever.
 
Just wanted to mention that...
I support my second amendment right just as I support my first amendment right. IMO allowing one to be changed because of politics would be just as bad as allowing the other.

Furthermore,
I believe it is prejudicial and inflammatory to imply the owners of legally obtained firearms are the sole reason for the negative sides of this issue.

Finally,
I want to mention that comparisons with other countries are unfair. America has many "issues" that do not exist in european nations. Certain phenomena have taken tolls on the statistics availible as well as the perceptions people form.
 
Just wanted to mention that...
I support my second amendment right just as I support my first amendment right. IMO allowing one to be changed because of politics would be just as bad as allowing the other.

Furthermore,
I believe it is prejudicial and inflammatory to imply the owners of legally obtained firearms are the sole reason for the negative sides of this issue.

Finally,
I want to mention that comparisons with other countries are unfair. America has many "issues" that do not exist in European nations. Certain phenomena have taken tolls on the statistics availible as well as the perceptions people form.

I read that a lot of New Orleans residents are now purchasing firearms like crazy. Why does it take a big tragedy to teach people it's considered being prepared and the right thing to do to purchase a firearm? For the Katrina victims who didn't own a firearm who were victimized twice by violent criminals, most of whom who didn't have a gun either, are now purchasing two main items. Generators and handguns. Any politician who utters a single gun law proposal as been attacked, and rightfully so, threatened to be outcast by voters at the next election for saying such retarded ideas. And a bunch of foreigners want to tell me guns are bad?

Don't believe me? Read this report about it.

NEW ORLEANS (AP) - Sixty-four-year-old Vivian Westerman rode out Hurricane Katrina in her 19th-century house. So terrible was the experience that she wanted two things before the 2006 season arrived: a backup power source and a gun.

"I got a 6,000-watt generator and the cutest little Smith & Wesson, snub-nose .38 you ever saw," she boasted. "I've never been more confident."

People across New Orleans are arming themselves - not only against the possibility of another storm bringing anarchy, but against the violence that has engulfed the metropolitan area in the 19 months since Katrina, making New Orleans the nation's murder capital.

The number of permits issued to carry concealed weapons is running twice as high as it was before Katrina - this, in a city with only about half its pre-storm population of around 450,000. Attendance at firearms classes and hours logged at shooting ranges also are up, according to the gun industry.

Gun dealers who saw sales shoot up during the chaotic few months after Katrina say that sales are still brisk, and that the customers are a cross-section of the population - doctors, lawyers, bankers, artists, laborers, stay-at-home moms.

"People are in fear of their lives. They're looking for ways to feel safe again," said Mike Roniger, manager of Gretna Gunworks in Jefferson Parish.

Citizens, the tourism industry, police and politicians officials have been alarmed by the wave of killings in New Orleans, with 162 in 2006 and 37 so far this year. A Tulane University study put the city's 2006 homicide rate at 96 slayings per 100,000 people, the highest in the nation.

National Guardsmen and state police are patrolling the streets of New Orleans. In neighboring Jefferson Parish, which posted a record 66 homicides in 2006, the sheriff sent armored vehicles to protect high-crime neighborhoods.

In New Orleans, police have accused the district attorney of failing to prosecute many suspects. Prosecutors have accused the police of not bringing them solid cases.

Some people are losing faith in the system to protect them.

Earnest Johnson, a 37-year-old chef who lives in Kenner, bought his first gun recently and visits a shooting range regularly. "Things are way worse than they used to be," he said. "You have to do something to protect yourself."

Kevin Cato, a 41-year-old contractor, bought a .45-caliber handgun for protection when he is working in some of the city's still-deserted areas. "But it's not much safer at home," Cato said. "The police chased a guy through my yard one time with their guns out."

In New Orleans, the number of concealed-carry permits issued jumped from 432 in 2003-04 to 832 in 2005-06. In Jefferson Parish, 522 permits were issued in 2003-04, and 1,362 in 2005-06.

Mike Mayer, owner of Jefferson Indoor Range and Gun Outlet in suburban Metairie, said that despite the drop off in population, sales are up about 38 percent overall since Katrina.

Just how many guns are out there is anybody's guess. Gun buyers in Louisiana are not required to register their weapon or obtain a concealed-carry permit if they keep the gun in their house or car.

In a measure of how dangerous New Orleans is becoming, guns are finding their way into criminal hands at an alarming rate. The federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives'"time-to-crime" analysis of the interval between the legal sale of a gun and the time it is seized in a crime investigation is five years on average around the nation, said ATF spokesman Austin Banks. In New Orleans, time-to-crime is six months, he said.

This sometimes happens because of "straw purchases," in which a buyer obtains a gun for someone not legally eligible to purchase one. Many guns also are stolen from homes and cars.

While many are buying guns for protection, only two defensive killings of criminals by civilians took place in New Orleans in 2006, according to police. No charges were filed against the shooters.

Westerman, an artist who lives in the city's Algiers neighborhood, is prepared to use deadly force.

"I'm a marksman now. I know what I'm doing," she said. "There are a lot of us. The girl next door is a crack shot."

Here's a good reason to own a gun that I think many in other countries don't realize. Guns make people civil. Carrying a gun is a civilized act. In the 1930's, our country went through some tough times. Crime was high because people didn't have a lot of money. But, nearly everybody carried a pocket pistol. They were very popular. People wouldn't mess with you back then because they figured you had one.

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gangbanger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weightlifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.

I'm more than confident I can deal with an attacker with my hands or knife. That, however, doesn't mean I should be left with only that as an option. Why would anybody limit themselves from safety? It makes NO SENSE.

Currently, UK is going through a big problem with knife attacks, stabbings and murders committed with knives. Guess what? More knife laws have been passed. Idiots. When will they 'get it.' Banning guns is not working, banning knives wont work either. Next, sticks and stones? Stale scones?

For those who are amazing ignorant about guns and 'assault weapons' watch this YouTube video to learn something. Notice, in CA, several semi-automatic hunting rifles were banned here during yet another useless 'assault weapons ban.'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjM9fcEzSJ0

A story about two concealed carry weapon holders stopping a mad gunman before anybody got killed. Just think if anybody with a CCW near the Virgina Tech college could have done the same thing.

http://www.wave3.com/Global/story.asp?S=6198907


Here are 40 reasons to ban guns for those of you who just don't seem to get it. Enjoy.


1. Banning guns works, which is why New York, DC, Detroit & Chicago cops need guns.

2. Washington DC's low murder rate of 69 per 100,000 is due to strict gun control, and Indianapolis' high murder rate of 9 per 100,000 is due to the lack of gun control.

3. Statistics showing high murder rates justify gun control but statistics showing increasing murder rates after gun control are "just statistics."

4. The Brady Bill and the Assault Weapons Ban, both of which went into effect in 1994 are responsible for the decrease in violent crime rates,which have been declining since 1991.

5. We must get rid of guns because a deranged lunatic may go on a shooting spree at any time and anyone who would own a gun out of fear of such a lunatic is paranoid.

6. The more helpless you are the safer you are from criminals.

7. An intruder will be incapacitated by tear gas or oven spray, but if shot with a .357 Magnum will get angry and kill you.

8. A woman raped and strangled is morally superior to a woman with a smoking gun and a dead rapist at her feet.

9. When confronted by violent criminals, you should "put up no defense - give them what they want, or run" (Handgun Control Inc. Chairman Pete Shields, Guns Don't Die - People Do, 1981, p. 125).

10. The New England Journal of Medicine is filled with expert advice about guns; just like Guns & Ammo has some excellent treatises on heart surgery.

11. One should consult an automotive engineer for safer seat belts, a civil engineer for a better bridge, a surgeon for internal medicine, a computer programmer for hard drive problems, and Sarah Brady for firearms expertise.

12. The 2nd Amendment, ratified in 1787, refers to the National Guard, which was created 130 years later, in 1917.

13. The National Guard, federally funded, with bases on federal land, using federally-owned weapons, vehicles, buildings and uniforms, punishing trespassers under federal law, is a "state" militia.

14. These phrases: "right of the people peaceably to assemble," "right of the people to be secure in their homes," "enumerations herein of certain rights shall not be construed to disparage others retained by the people," and "The powers not delegated herein are reserved to the states respectively, and to the people" all refer to individuals, but "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" refers to the state.

15. "The Constitution is strong and will never change." But we should ban and seize all guns thereby violating the 2nd, 4th, and 5th Amendments to that Constitution.

16. Rifles and handguns aren't necessary to national defense! Of course, the army has hundreds of thousands of them.

17. Private citizens shouldn't have handguns, because they aren't "military weapons'', but private citizens shouldn't have "assault rifles'', because they are military weapons.

18. In spite of waiting periods, background checks, fingerprinting,government forms, etc., guns today are too readily available, which is responsible for recent school shootings. In the 1940's, 1950's and 1960's,anyone could buy guns at hardware stores, army surplus stores, gas stations,variety stores, Sears mail order, no waiting, no background check, no fingerprints, no government forms and there were no school shootings.

19. The NRA's attempt to run a "don't touch" campaign about kids handling guns is propaganda, but the anti-gun lobby's attempt to run a "don't touch" campaign is responsible social activity.

20. Guns are so complex that special training is necessary to use them properly, and so simple to use that they make murder easy.

21. A handgun, with up to 4 controls, is far too complex for the typical adult to learn to use, as opposed to an automobile that only has 20.

22. Women are just as intelligent and capable as men but a woman with a gun is "an accident waiting to happen" and gun makers' advertisements aimed at women are "preying on their fears."

23. Ordinary people in the presence of guns turn into slaughtering butchers but revert to normal when the weapon is removed.

24. Guns cause violence, which is why there are so many mass killings at gun shows.

25. A majority of the population supports gun control, just like a majority of the population supported owning slaves.

26. Any self-loading small arm can legitimately be considered to be a "weapon of mass destruction" or an "assault weapon."

27. Most people can't be trusted, so we should have laws against guns, which most people will abide by because they can be trusted.

28. The right of Internet pornographers to exist cannot be questioned because it is constitutionally protected by the Bill of Rights, but the use of handguns for self defense is not really protected by the Bill of Rights.

29. Free speech entitles one to own newspapers, transmitters, computers, and typewriters, but self- defense only justifies bare hands.

30. The ACLU is good because it uncompromisingly defends certain parts of the Constitution, and the NRA is bad, because it defends other parts of the Constitution.

31. Charlton Heston, a movie actor as president of the NRA is a cheap lunatic who should be ignored, but Michael Douglas, a movie actor as a representative of Handgun Control, Inc. is an ambassador for peace who is entitled to an audience at the UN arms control summit.

32. Police operate with backup within groups, which is why they need larger capacity pistol magazines than do "civilians" who must face criminals alone and therefore need less ammunition.

33. We should ban "Saturday Night Specials" and other inexpensive guns because it's not fair that poor people have access to guns too.

34. Police officers have some special Jedi-like mastery over handguns that private citizens can never hope to obtain.

35. Private citizens don't need a gun for self- protection because the police are there to protect them even though the Supreme Court says the police are not responsible for their protection.

36. Citizens don't need to carry a gun for personal protection but police chiefs, who are desk-bound administrators who work in a building filled with cops, need a gun.

37. "Assault weapons" have no purpose other than to kill large numbers of people. The police need assault weapons. You do not.

38. When Microsoft pressures its distributors to give Microsoft preferential promotion, that's bad; but when the Federal government pressures cities to buy guns only from Smith & Wesson, that's good.

39. Trigger locks do not interfere with the ability to use a gun for defensive purposes, which is why you see police officers with one on their duty weapon.

40. Handgun Control, Inc., says they want to "keep guns out of the wrong hands." Guess what? You have the wrong hands.
 
...I'm looking forward to the gun-control debate we are likely to have on Friday in my "Political Thought" class here at Aquinas. It may be anyone's guess, but I'm already anticipating a severe lashing from some of my more-Liberal classmates, and yet again the conservative (relative) minority will have to band together and out-reason them, all while they manage to resort to personal attacks on integrity and intelligence. Great.

It should be fun. I should probably print-off that list, or write a few of them down for reference...
 
...I'm looking forward to the gun-control debate we are likely to have on Friday in my "Political Thought" class here at Aquinas. It may be anyone's guess, but I'm already anticipating a severe lashing from some of my more-Liberal classmates, and yet again the conservative (relative) minority will have to band together and out-reason them, all while they manage to resort to personal attacks on integrity and intelligence. Great.

It should be fun. I should probably print-off that list, or write a few of them down for reference...

Frickin' destroy 'um, dude! 👍
 
Think of all the fun I am having escorting people who are FOR gun controll and debating me while I give them an armed escort to their car.
 
Think of all the fun I am having escorting people who are FOR gun controll and debating me while I give them an armed escort to their car.

Now, you really can't blame them. They are 'special' after all.

Or, do you only help physically challenged people?
 
Currently, UK is going through a big problem with knife attacks, stabbings and murders committed with knives. Guess what? More knife laws have been passed. Idiots. When will they 'get it.' Banning guns is not working, banning knives wont work either. Next, sticks and stones? Stale scones?

So our problems could all be solved by letting everyone defend themselves with a gun?

Yeh, okay then.

Also it's hardly a big problem (in terms of being out of control obviously you don't want peopel getting stabbed), most of it's gang related anyway. Not like I would just walk down the street and get stabbed by every passer by. It's also in certain areas of London.
 
Some of you gun control advocates are forgetting an important detail. Even if you make guns illegal, it will not make them less difficult to get.

With some exceptions to medicinal use, marijuana is illegal in the US. Yet, I know anyone on any college campus across the US can very easily (and affordably) obtain it anytime they want. Same with any drug. The US has one of the most extensive drug smuggling infrastructures in the world... mostly because we're one of the biggest drug markets in the world.

If you make guns illegal, all you do is create a thriving black market for it. And existing drug runners, dealers and pushers will have no problems whatsoever adding Glocks to their usual cargo of exstacy, pot, heroin, cocain, etc. Plus, guns are easy to smuggle. Probably easier than drugs.

I guarantee you if that sub-human nutjob wanted to spend his $500 on skag instead of a 9mm, it would have taken him roughly the same amount of time and effort. Maybe less. He should have. Maybe he'd be passed out in a junk haze right now instead of doing what he did Monday.

Just because you make it illegal doesn't mean it goes away, folks.


M
 
So our problems could all be solved by letting everyone defend themselves with a gun?

Yeh, okay then.

Also it's hardly a big problem (in terms of being out of control obviously you don't want peopel getting stabbed), most of it's gang related anyway. Not like I would just walk down the street and get stabbed by every passer by. It's also in certain areas of London.

Um, yeah I would rather let them defend themselves with a gun. More so when your officers don't have a fire arm. A guy is not going to pull a knife on you when he thinks you are carrying a gun. And if he does, you pull your gun and any remotely rational person will realize that a knife vs gun fight does not work out well generally.

And your comment about it not being a big problem and mostly gang related is just... tragic. So it does not immediately affect you, so you do not care about it? Truly a short sighted view on things.
 
I just want some that is pro gun control to show me a situation where CRIMES involving guns and/or violent crime dropped. Just show me one. I'm talking straight numbers here. Not some stuff about accidental kills and the like.

I wish to God I could carry a gun. Not just for me, but for others as well. I hate it that only criminals and cops can carry guns. In Maryland anyway.
 
So our problems could all be solved by letting everyone defend themselves with a gun?

Yeh, okay then.

Also it's hardly a big problem (in terms of being out of control obviously you don't want peopel getting stabbed), most of it's gang related anyway. Not like I would just walk down the street and get stabbed by every passer by. It's also in certain areas of London.

Do you honestly believe that knife attacks in the UK are limited to just certain areas of London? Almost every large town and city in the UK has current issues with both knife and gun crime.

The knee jerk reaction to gun control in the UK (following both Hungerford and Dunblane) did nothing to reduce gun crime in the UK. The only effect it had was to remove perfectly legal guns from almost totally law abiding owners.

I grew up around guns, being taught gun safety and use from a young age by my grandfather and father, ranging from shotguns, rifles and pistols. I have hunted, shot clays and targets over the years, but quite simply now we have a situation in the UK in which just about the only people who can't easily get a gun are those who respect the law.

The current state of affairs is so daft that British Olympic pistol shooters can not legally practice in the UK (they train in Switzerland), would you care to explain exactly how that makes the country a safer place.

Simply put if someone wants to kill people with a gun, they will obtain one and they will use it, legal ownership or not is irrelevant. After all they intend to break the law in one of the most heinous ways possible (the act of murder) so adding ownership of an illegal firearm is hardly going to make a huge difference to them is it now.

Restricting the legal ownership of guns does not stop people obtaining them or using them, how many times will governments fail to realise that all prohibition does is take a market underground.


Regards

Scaff
 
I just want some that is pro gun control to show me a situation where CRIMES involving guns and/or violent crime dropped. Just show me one. I'm talking straight numbers here. Not some stuff about accidental kills and the like.

I wish to God I could carry a gun. Not just for me, but for others as well. I hate it that only criminals and cops can carry guns. In Maryland anyway.
Dude,
Look up the town of Kennesaw. I can't remember if it is in Georgia or Virginia.
It is required to own a gun in this town.
They have virtually no crime.
Why?
As I've said before, "An armed society is a polite society". That is especially true of a discreetly armed society.
I don't own a gun, but many of my neighbors do.
If I didn't have 6 kids in the house, that come and go at weird hours, I would have a Ruger GP-100 or SP-101 chambered in .357, and loaded with a "heavy" slow .38 SWC. (Never handloads, as they will burn you in court.)
If we ever fullfill our dream of moving out to "the country" I will be getting a Winchester or Browning lever action rifle.
The police can not protect you. They nearly always show up after the fact, and take names and evidence.
You are responsible for protecting you.
Choose lethal means, non-lethal, open-hand, etc. But you are your best protector.

You will note, with few exceptions, most psychos that go on a mass murdering binge prefer to do so with edged or bludgeoning weapons. They are efficient and most importantly QUIET.
Home protectors like guns because they are efficient defensive weapons and the noise they make will prompt somebody to come to your aid, or call the cops to come to your aid.
 
Now, you really can't blame them. They are 'special' after all.

Or, do you only help physically challenged people?


These are employee's they demanded MORE security after gang war/ fight.

LOL....the poor mentally ill people are taken by van and leave mid afternoon and are well watched.

Yes the employee's have the luxury on lecturing me on gun controll while requesting an armed escort to their cars.💡



I think they should go lecture the gang members that are hanging around watching enjoying the show.

If I didn't feel so bad about letting down the " clients " we look after ..I'd quit on the spot and tell them to buy their own weapon and walk themselves . Because the only reason they can afford to be so "liberal "minded about gun controll.....is because THEY have someone else doing their job for them .

Swift..... WASHINGTON D.C. has a virtual ban on guns. So you should move there...opps I forgot ...I like you....and D.C. has one of the highest murder rates in the world....

You can move to any of the surrounding states that allow CCP. 41 States plus do as of today ...and if you believe this poll ..

http://men.msn.com/articlepollgc.aspx?cp-documentid=4732850&gt1=9311&wa=wsignin1.0


LOL ....well it speaks for itself.
 
Remember, no one ever killed anybody before guns were invented!
Oh, wait.

Banning guns only results in an increase use of other weapons in crimes. England is a fantastic example of that. They banned guns. The people started getting stabbed. So they banned knives. Now people are still getting killed with knives. Some with swords. Now they've considered banning swords. What weapon could that lead to next? Because lethal implements will always be available. Cars can kill, and kill hundreds of thousands of people a year. Why has no one spoke out against this horrible trend? I mean, if you own a car or live in an area where cars are legal, you stand the risk of being killed by one.

Okay, so not all criminals will have access to guns if you ban them. But enough will. The ones that don't will just use something else that is lethal and still legal. Ban enough items, and we will probably see murders committed with stones and improvised clubs. lets not forget that even where guns are legal, most crimes are committed with illegally obtained guns. Please, would a gun control advocate please explain why that is the case? And while we're at it, please tell me how making guns illegal would change the level of illegally obtained firearms. I'd really like to hear it.

Learn from history. PROHIBITION DOES NOT WORK.
It failed in the 1930s with alcohol. People still drank, even with the risk of poisonous moonshine.
It has yet to eliminate drug usage.
People still get shot in cities that ban guns. In DC, lots of people get shot. In London, people get stabbed.
 
And your comment about it not being a big problem and mostly gang related is just... tragic. So it does not immediately affect you, so you do not care about it? Truly a short sighted view on things.

Impressive way to jump to conclusions.

I meant big problem, in that we have bigger problems, like the wars and the NHS. Also, I do care about it (when did I say I didn't). Knifings have occured in London for many years, it's not as though suddenly it's just come out of no where it's just being reported more by a press that obeys to the publics demands of wanting to know things like that. Note, Like the situation with dogs, a while back for about a week or two, every dog attack was headline news (ahead of big suicide attacks in Iraq, etc) but that's wained now. It still makes the news, but it's very much small section rather than 3 page pull-out.

3-wheel drive where is your proof that banning guns in Britain resulted in crime going up? It can only be attributed to the fact we banned guns?
 
Do you honestly believe that knife attacks in the UK are limited to just certain areas of London? Almost every large town and city in the UK has current issues with both knife and gun crime.


The current state of affairs is so daft that British Olympic pistol shooters can not legally practice in the UK (they train in Switzerland), would you care to explain exactly how that makes the country a safer place.

Simply put if someone wants to kill people with a gun, they will obtain one and they will use it, legal ownership or not is irrelevant. After all they intend to break the law in one of the most heinous ways possible (the act of murder) so adding ownership of an illegal firearm is hardly going to make a huge difference to them is it now.

Restricting the legal ownership of guns does not stop people obtaining them or using them, how many times will governments fail to realise that all prohibition does is take a market underground.


Regards

Scaff

No, I don't believe that knife attack are confined to just parts of London, just using it as it's the most documented example at the moment. That is definitely stupid with those Olympic shooters (though we have some in training on the streets for Londons 2012 games ;)) You're right on those last two parts too. No one trusts this government (or any politicians) enough to put something like say legal ownership of guns without cocking something up. I personally don't think it's a good idea, and the people wouldn't want it (if you did a referendum it'd be quite the minority that would want guns to protect themselves, I'd bet) I've only ever heard a gunshot once in real life. (didn't actually see the gun) but for the rest of the day I was very uncomfortable, I don't like guns, moreso the power the people that have them have over people that don't. I also think it'd be silly to have legal gun ownership if our Police Officers don't have guns on them.

---------

Someones broken into a NASA building, armed apparently.

Good security...
 
I've only ever heard a gunshot once in real life. (didn't actually see the gun) but for the rest of the day I was very uncomfortable, I don't like guns, moreso the power the people that have them have over people that don't. I also think it'd be silly to have legal gun ownership if our Police Officers don't have guns on them.

I have to say that the above part is quite telling, you have no direct experience of guns, nor have you even been in an environment in which guns are treated with respect and good gun safety was the norm.

I have, growing up with them. Respectfully this smacks of a personal fear of something you do not know, guns do not automatically mean danger any more than a car automatically means danger. Yet both can be lethal in the wrong (untrained and uneducated) hands.

In regard to the police not being armed and citizens being able to legally own guns? What do you think currently happens in the UK with shotgun ownership? What about the UK prior to the ban on handguns? Who do you think checked and monitored these (then) legally owned guns? The police did, and when I did legally own guns (mainly shotguns) I never meet a police officer who had a problem with it. The police don't have an issue with legally owned guns, the have a fear of illegally owned guns, and banning legal ownership has done nothing to change that at all.

As for the Police in the UK being unarmed, well that may be the case for beat officers in the UK, but the Police Service of Northern Ireland (part of the UK) are armed as standard, officers on airport duty have been armed for years now (well prior to 9/11 as well) and the motorways of the UK are routinely patrolled by rapid response units that are armed with 9mm pistols and H&K MP5s. Sorry but the UK police are armed, just not in a publicly visible way or on the beat.



Regards

Scaff
 
Cause gun and knife crime is on the rise in London, yeah? Hell, even I thought it was.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6571189.stm

Gun/knife crime down 11% in London.

To all those raised with guns, good for you. You know how to treat guns, fire guns, store guns and maintain guns. But teh same can be said to all those that drove up driving their dad's weekend driver from a young-ish age. You know how to act.

There's alot of people that haven't had those oppurtunities. I haven't had either, and I think it's fair to say most people haven't either. These people do not[/n] know how to treat guns, and when given a gun often think they do.

In regards to "An armed society is a polite society". How many times have you accidentally pissed someone off? You don't mean to do it, technically you haven't been impolite. I mean, all you could've done is gone a date with a girl who's fancied by someone who's a tad obsessive. That person could be a complete runt, who's got no chance of 'getting even', untill you stick a 9mm in his hands. But wait, in an armed society you'd have agun aswell so we'd go all "Old west" and have a shoot-out? No, because you can't and won't be watching your back all the time.


I do not believe that gun control for law abiding citizens is the complete answer. Of course, American needs to deal with the illegal import/trading first, and I realise that is difficult, but things can be done. Gun amnesty's, more undercover work, reduce sales of de-activated guns that could be re-activated.
 
But if the law abiding citizenry is known to be unarmed, how will the behavior of the hooligans and criminals change?
In the same way that a bully will intimidate those that are known to be weaker. The hooligans will "take advantage" of the fact that law abiding citizens are not armed.

By "an armed society is a polite society" I simply meant that if the bad guys know that the good guys can be legally armed, it tends to lessen the incidence of violent crime.
For example, if you are a bad guy, are you gonna perpatrate a crime against someone in their home if there is a chance they'll shoot you?
If you know that all the citizenry is unarmed, you will know that you are in what military people refer to as a "target rich environment".
I, for one, don't want to be considered a target.
 
Gil
But if the law abiding citizenry is known to be unarmed, how will the behavior of the hooligans and criminals change?
In the same way that a bully will intimidate those that are known to be weaker. The hooligans will "take advantage" of the fact that law abiding citizens are not armed.
But how often does the victim's weapon come into play? If a mugger knows everyone has a gun, that sill doesn't prevent the lone man on the street getting mugged. A smash on the back of the head will knock most people down, and a concealed weapon is little use if you have no oppurtunity to get it.

By "an armed society is a polite society" I simply meant that if the bad guys know that the good guys can be legally armed, it tends to lessen the incidence of violent crime.
For example, if you are a bad guy, are you gonna perpatrate a crime against someone in their home if there is a chance they'll shoot you?
If you know that all the citizenry is unarmed, you will know that you are in what military people refer to as a "target rich environment".
I, for one, don't want to be considered a target.
That's a fair point. But, you don't break into a house that looks secure. Double glazing, sturdy doors, fenced off back gardens.

Anotehr point I'd liek to make is that by legalising guns you make more guns available to the black market.

If a mugger knows say, an elderly women has a gun, he doesn't need to even let that gun become part of the equation. He mererely needs to striker her from behind, hell even from the front and she'll have no chance to getting that gun out. Then all he has to do is steel her purse, do a quick pat down and make off with her cash, and a gun.
 
But how often does the victim's weapon come into play? If a mugger knows everyone has a gun, that sill doesn't prevent the lone man on the street getting mugged. A smash on the back of the head will knock most people down, and a concealed weapon is little use if you have no oppurtunity to get it.

Point is that a mugger is less likely to try to hit you on the back of the head if he knows you have a gun. One slip up and he could be dead. Those are high stakes, it will make muggers thing twice. Even if it's a relatively easy thing to do, the stakes are as high as they come. If the mugger knows that the person is unarmed, he doesn't risk nearly as much.


ExigeExcel
If a mugger knows say, an elderly women has a gun, he doesn't need to even let that gun become part of the equation. He mererely needs to striker her from behind, hell even from the front and she'll have no chance to getting that gun out. Then all he has to do is steel her purse, do a quick pat down and make off with her cash, and a gun.

Again, he risks his life to do so. Whereas if he knows that she is unarmed he risks almost nothing.
 
Cause gun and knife crime is on the rise in London, yeah? Hell, even I thought it was.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6571189.stm

Gun/knife crime down 11% in London.

And the Home Office's own figures show a rise in the use of firearms used in robberies in the country as a whole. The UK is more than just London and crime figures for the capitol alone do not always show the true picture.

Press Association Ltd 2007
Labour has been accused of losing control of gun crime as new figures show a sharp rise in armed robberies.

Guns were used in 4,120 robberies last year - a 10% jump - including a 9% rise to 1,439 in the number of street robberies where guns were used.

There was also a rapid and unexplained increase in the number of times householders were confronted in their own homes by armed criminals. Residential firearms robberies show a 46% leap, a record 645 cases in England and Wales - up 204 on the previous year and four times the level recorded in 2000-01.

The figures come a day after two men armed with a replica gun robbed a Home Office worker on his way home after sharing a curry with Home Secretary John Reid. The 29-year-old civil servant was making his way home in Beckenham, Kent, shortly before midnight when he was attacked.

A Met Police spokeswoman said the man's wallet and mobile phone were taken and confirmed that two teenage men remain in custody at a south London police station.

The Home Office report shows that handguns are the most commonly used firearm in robberies, reported in 2,888 cases.

Shadow home secretary David Davis said of the figures: "This shows Labour is losing control of gun crime across the board, whether it be on the street or in innocent people's homes.

"Gun crime is mainly fuelled by gang warfare and drug addiction, which is a consequence of Labour's failing drugs policy. It is exacerbated by our porous borders, which allow illegal weapons to flow into the country."

Home Office minister Tony McNulty said: "Firearm offences have fallen significantly, by 14% in the year up to September 2006, which amounts to 1,642 fewer incidents.

"While there is a small rise in residential firearm robberies, these account for a tiny proportion of recorded offences overall, although we recognise any firearm incident is traumatic for victims." He added: "We have some of the toughest firearm legislation in Europe."
© Copyright Press Association Ltd 2007, All Rights Reserved.
Source - http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=paFiguresThurs18Crimefiguresud2Substitute&show_article=1

Politics also dictate that figures will always be presented in the best light possible, as explained here

Times
The police declared that gun crime has been falling recently.

Up to a point. It is true that the number of murders committed with firearms has dipped from a peak in 2001-02. But the overall level of violence from people using firearms has soared in the past decade (which would be since the handgun ban following Dunblane - Scaff).

In 1998-99 there were 653 “slight injuries” from recorded offences involving firearms; in 2004-05 the figure was 3,369. Over the same period the number of “serious injuries” jumped from 162 to 410.

Other figures reflect how handguns in particular have taken an increasing hold in street culture. While the number of offences involving shotguns has remained broadly level, the use of handguns has almost doubled. The use of “imitation firearms” — typically replica handguns that can be made to fire bullets — has gone up more than fivefold.

Gun crime has become so common it often passes almost unnoticed. Last week, while attention focused on the London killings, a hooded robber burst into a shop called Super Booze in Liverpool armed with a gun. Police believe the suspect has carried out 19 similar raids in the past two months alone.

In Burton, Staffordshire, four men, one brandishing a handgun, robbed a van outside a Tesco supermarket in mid afternoon. In Leeds a man was found guilty of murder after a shooting outside a nightclub last year — the incident had begun when two men simply bumped into each other.

And in London on Friday two men were jailed for dealing in weapons. They had been caught with 18 pistols, 18 silencers and 748 rounds of ammunition in the boot of a car.
Source - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1400685.ece



To all those raised with guns, good for you. You know how to treat guns, fire guns, store guns and maintain guns. But teh same can be said to all those that drove up driving their dad's weekend driver from a young-ish age. You know how to act.

There's alot of people that haven't had those oppurtunities. I haven't had either, and I think it's fair to say most people haven't either. These people do not[/n] know how to treat guns, and when given a gun often think they do..

And just as people require testing and licensing to be able to drive a car I would fully support the same approach to gun ownership. The logic being applied here would suggest that because not all people drive cars legally then cars are the fault and should be banned (as that's the same logic as saying that if anyone could behave irresponsibly with a gun then all guns should be banned). Over the years all the shooters I have meet have been extremely responsible people, yet following Hungerford and Dunblane (and I was 16 and living 8 miles away from Hungerford when it occured) two isolated cases have been used to criminalise a huge number of totally law abiding people.



Anotehr point I'd liek to make is that by legalising guns you make more guns available to the black market.
I would love to see you provide some detailed statistics proving this.

Lets look at the two years after the handgun ban in the UK (following Dunblane), in which the use of guns in crime rose by 40%...

Source - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1440764.stm

...that's after 160,000 legaly held guns were handed in by owners (including people I know) and then destroyed...

Source - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/164402.stm

...what its not difficult to do is find details on an increase in black-market weapons since legal guns were banned...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2007/02/08/sohoey08.xml

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1400685.ece


...so before making such a bold claim I would like to see some proof that legalising guns would lead to an increase in the black-market for firearms. Simply put the figures since the handgun ban do not back up such a claim, nor does simple logic, a criminal will obtain a gun regardless of if guns can be legally held by the public or not.

When I owned rifles and shotguns they were (as required by law) held in locked steel cases, bolted (in my case) to the rafters in the attic of my house. Now while not required by law I also kept all ammunition in a separate lockbox, to steal either would have required a great deal of effort (and risk of a roof collapse), far more than most criminals would bother with when tehy could go and buy an illegal gun far cheaper. Stopping legally owned guns does not stop criminals wanting to own guns, nor does it make them any easier for criminals to obtain them.

Regards

Scaff
 
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