Halal Food

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Halal. Pertaining to an action or object which is permissible under Islamic law. Most frequently, the term is used in conjunction with food when talking about the dietary laws of Muslims. Critically, the topic of animal slaughter (Dhabīḥah) generates most controversy due to the way it is conducted;

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This method of slaughtering animals consists of a swift, deep incision with a sharp knife on the throat, cutting the jugular veins and carotid arteries of both sides but leaving the spinal cord intact.

This aggravates both animal rights activists, who claim that halal preparation and slaughter is unethical, and Islamaphobes, outraged that food they consume might be prepared in this way.

The topic rumbles on in the UK and surfaces every so often a red top decides it wants to stir the pot. In the space of a week, two 'scandals' have broken out;

1) Subway has announced that in 200 of its 1400 UK outlets it is withdrawing ham and bacon out of respect for Muslim dietary laws.

2) This very morning, 7th April, a few red tops ran a story about the 'outrage' that all Pizza Express chicken is halal approved causing outrage amongst those of a UKIP disposition.


Freedom of religion is an important principle as a sub-entry of freedom of expression. People can believe what they want, but can they do what they want? The uproar arises from people who do not conform to halal standards in their everyday life eating food which does conform. They didn't want their animal stabbed in the throat and hung upside down in order for the blood to drain. But if you are slaughtering animals to prepare for consumption, does it matter how it is killed?

To cushion this devastating blow to Western tradition, and in order to comply with our own standards, halal prepared animals are stunned before slaughter. Whether this is better for the animal or whether it at all gives us peace of mind is open to debate.

Equally, captive bolt stunning is argued by Halal supporters to be inhumane and that the halal method is better.

Specifically regarding public opinion, much of any outcry is dependent on whether the consumer knows ahead of purchase. Pizza Express claim to have always noted the fact that their chicken dishes are 100% halal on their website, but not all consumers will take the time to check these things out.

A common argument against the Subway UK precedence is that you couldn't set up a butchers in Tehran or Dubai and be allowed to sell ham and bacon over there. "It doesn't work both ways." But this argument is a strawman argument because even if you could set up such an establishment, the market for anybody who actually wanted those products is slim to zero. Such countries in the Middle East (wrongfully) have religion dictate their judiciaries and executives, further hampering the likelihood of a successful pork shop.

I suspect the alteration to the 200 Subway outlets will be exclusively in areas of significant Islamic majorities. Lastly, as anyone from the US and Canada could tell you, regional differences to menus and availabilities of certain products are very common elsewhere.

So where are the lines drawn? Is this an unethical import which is part and parcel of multiculturalism which should be phased out, or is this a matter of perspective and is simply another method to reach the same goal?

Discuss.
 
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You dont need to remove pig products to respect muslims.

Muslims can ignore them, and if they are offered they can easily say no.
Just as vegans can say no when they are offered cheese on their veggie sub.
It's a big issue for them. In some Islamic countries they completely prohibit freedom of speech and expression yet they want other countries to give liberties that some of them wouldn't give to others if the situation were reversed. I guess some companies in the face of controversy wilt and let small groups do whatever.
 
It's a big issue for them. In some Islamic countries they completely prohibit freedom of speech and expression yet they want other countries to give liberties that some of them wouldn't give to others if the situation were reversed. I guess some companies in the face of controversy wilt and let small groups do whatever.

So they make the non Muslims have to do without.

I can kinda understand if it was like muslim town(think china town) and they didn't offer it in that area.
 
I don't really have a problem with it. I'd like to hear more about why the Halal method of slaughter is unethical, as animal slaughter and animal rights are not things I know much about. That said, how many of those animal rights people are opposed to killing of animals in any way, rather than specifically Halal?

Anyway, I won't begrudge people their religion. But I'm still going to eat bacon. And if I walk into a Subway expecting bacon and get none, I'll find somewhere that does serve it. It's a strategic move by Subway, they want more Muslim customers but don't want to drive away existing pork-eating customers. They must think that this will increase revenue despite the publicity.

It's a big issue for them. In some Islamic countries they completely prohibit freedom of speech and expression yet they want other countries to give liberties that some of them wouldn't give to others if the situation were reversed. I guess some companies in the face of controversy wilt and let small groups do whatever.
That's not just an Islamic thing, though. All countries and religions are full of hipocrisy. And you have to remember that this stems from what's happening in the UK, which is certainly not a Muslim nation (just ask David Cameron, he'll tell you...) nor is it one that generally oppresses people. The fact that companies can choose to do this is a reflection of freedom of religion. In a country with an extremist Islamic government they likely wouldn't be allowed to serve pork in the first place.
 
Limitation: Not being able to stock both
Exclusion: Stocking one but refusing to stock the other
Inclusion: Stocking both

Since Subway have now made a rod for their own backs, I'd like to see militant vegetarian and vegan groups picketing and protesting that they remove all meat and animal products because meat is murder and they find it offensive to have to see the tasty, tasty murder when ordering their sandwiches.
 
Even if you don't have a separate Church and State, you can still be fair with your laws and people even if, deliciously, it goes against the state religion.

The UK is an example of this. The head of state is also the Supreme Leader of the Church of England, so it's fair to say that yes, Britain legally is a Christian country.

But you can eat pretty much whatever you want on whatever day you want around here.
 
Britain has had a deep history, the last 1000+ years fervently steeped in Christianity.

But in recent decades Christianity has lost its charm for Britons, who now seek meaning in pasta, paganism and woo.

Perhaps the only folks left on the island with any firmly held beliefs are recently arrived procreational Muslims? So let your Subways cater to them. Perhaps they are your future?
 
Since Subway have now made a rod for their own backs, I'd like to see militant vegetarian and vegan groups picketing and protesting that they remove all meat and animal products because meat is murder and they find it offensive to have to see the tasty, tasty murder when ordering their sandwiches.

When they start firebombing the Subways at the Arndale centre, it's going to be The Troubles all over again...
 
I eat only halal food, so hearing this news both pleases/confuses me.
Now I like the idea of halal subways etc, but I do fail to understand why they've done it. Yes, I would like to eat at a subway, but no I don't want to make other people complain just so that I am happy. It doesn't make sense to me. I am more than happy to go searching for a halal shop, even if it's not as easy to find as a local KFC etc.

I don't feel at all upset that KFCs are halal, despite loving KFC when I had it on holiday. This is Britain and I understand that there is not an overwhelming demand for it. Like @Famine said, if they want to make a halal subway, then I think that they should have a veggie subway too, because that is only fair!

So my opinion? It's good in a way, and bad in a way. Only time will tell what happens.
 
I find it strange that people would protest against halal slaughtering of animals because it's unethical, considering the alternative(s). In the Netherlands they had a similar discussion, with activists raving over 20,000 halal slaughterings of home-grown animals annually, but completely ignoring the bio-industry (which is the only alternative), where pigs are clipped of tails/ears and hooves and kept in cages that barely allow movement for their entire life, by the dozes of millions per year.

As for removing ham/bacon from 200 of their 1400 outlets: I'm pretty sure Subway made a calculation for those outlets and they anticipate that the loss of people wanting pork products is less than the gain of people wanting halal products only.
 
@ECGadget May I enquire as to your opinion on the actual concept of halal food?

Sure, so halal food is food that is permitted according to Islamic law (basically not pork or anything injected with pork enzymes unless you are starving and there is no other food) and is slaughtered in the Islamic Fashion (as far as I know that is by severing the throat in such a manner that the animal feel hardly any pain and is killed almost instantly. This allows the blood to drain out quickly as well, removing most impurities.)

As for stunning an animal before killing it, it is technically allowed, but the reason Islamic law frowns upon it is because a good 30% (don't quote on number) of the animals that are stunned die before they are slaughtered. If there was a certainty that a stunned animal would not be killed, I am sure that stunning before slaughter would be permitted, since it means that the animal would suffer for an even shorter period of time. For me, I am completely okay with it(though I could never do a slaughter myself, I get too attached to the animals), and any debate about it is for people who are more knowledgeable of the subject to discuss. Does that answer your question? :)
 
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What I don't get is, why can't subway sell bacon and ham as well as halal food? Then everyones happy and your customers can buy what they want.


Actually the only reason they don't do that is the risk of cross contamination (though I know subway are well known for keeping everything split very well). If that was possible (and at some point I hope it really is) it'll be super awesome and everyone will be happy, like you said!
 
What I don't get is, why can't subway sell bacon and ham as well as halal food? Then everyones happy and your customers can buy what they want.

Because pork products aren't halal and it can't really be a halal restaurant if they sell non-halal foodstuffs. As well as the potential for cross-contamination as ECG pointed out.

@ECGadet But what I mean is, do you agree with it all and why?
 
Because pork products aren't halal and it can't really be a halal restaurant if they sell non-halal foodstuffs. As well as the potential for cross-contamination as ECG pointed out.

@ECGadet But what I mean is, do you agree with it all and why?

Sorry, I edited my post just now with the answer. I agree with it, because I am not knowledgeable enough to debate it. And because I have been taught that it is the most humane manner, but of course there is always debate about this. Like I said, my preference would be to stun the creature first and not kill it, then perform a slaughter. Because that would be even less painful for the animal, and that is what I care about most of all. If I am going to eat meat, I want it to be halal AND I want the animal to not feel pain (in an ideal world)
 
Because pork products aren't halal and it can't really be a halal restaurant if they sell non-halal foodstuffs. As well as the potential for cross-contamination as ECG pointed out.

@ECGadet But what I mean is, do you agree with it all and why?

You misunderstood my point, which was why does it have to be a halal restaurant, why can't it just be a normal restaurant that sells some halal food, and some non-halal food. But that is addressed by the other point you and Gadget made about cross-contamination, would that really be so much of a problem though? As long as you keep stuff separated, which Gadget said Subway do well, surely there would be very few cases of cross-contamination.
 
But the possibility of cross-contamination would still be possible. Careless employees or suppliers could inadvertently tamper with the foods, nullifying the halal properties of the halal prepared food.

Subway just want to be safe than sorry in offering halal friendly restaurants, I guess.
 
I agree with it, because I am not knowledgeable enough to debate it. And because I have been taught that it is the most humane manner, but of course there is always debate about this.
Yeah, it's not. Proponents claim that, by severing all of the blood vessels in the neck, the brain is starved of oxygen and doesn't have time to feel pain. It'd have to be some cut to do that, given that a disembodied head can survive for fifteen seconds.

In the meantime, the animal takes a couple of minutes to bleed out. It's a wonder they don't suggest throat slashing as a humane execution method for criminals...
 
You misunderstood my point, which was why does it have to be a halal restaurant, why can't it just be a normal restaurant that sells some halal food, and some non-halal food. But that is addressed by the other point you and Gadget made about cross-contamination, would that really be so much of a problem though? As long as you keep stuff separated, which Gadget said Subway do well, surely there would be very few cases of cross-contamination.


Problem is in a restaurant the food is not really prepped in front of you so you really don't know. And it is said in Islamic law that if you are in doubt about if food is halal or not, it is better that you refrain from it. In subway they use gloves which they change and it's all with a glass front. That is why over here many Muslims are happy to eat the non meat subs that they make.

Yeah, it's not. Proponents claim that, by severing all of the blood vessels in the neck, the brain is starved of oxygen and doesn't have time to feel pain. It'd have to be some cut to do that, given that a disembodied head can survive for fifteen seconds.

In the meantime, the animal takes a couple of minutes to bleed out. It's a wonder they don't suggest throat slashing as a humane execution method for criminals...

Well yeah, I mean there is also a rule on how sharp the blade is. The blade must be able to sever in one swift cut. But like I said, I couldn't do it...
 
As I said, even if they could make the blade so sharp and cut so swift it could take the head off, the animal will feel pain and will not die instantly.
 
As I said, even if they could make the blade so sharp and cut so swift it could take the head off, the animal will feel pain and will not die instantly.

Fair point there. Again, I am not knowledgeable in this subject, so I leave it to the scholars to debate, which they are actually doing, just to point out. 👍
 
As I said, even if they could make the blade so sharp and cut so swift it could take the head off, the animal will feel pain and will not die instantly.

To counter this, they typically stun the animal if they want to conform to most Western/EU standards. But I've read, and I'm not sure of the theory in this, that because they slash the throat without severing the spinal cord, the animal will still feel pain in its stunned state when the throat is slashed.
 
Can't say I'm that bothered to be honest.

I'd have puppy-eyed golden retriever on my foot long if they sold it...

The thing I've noticed talking to people about the Subway situation is that most use it as an excuse to jump on the anti muslim bandwagon. Sub's are run as franchises as far as I know, if 180+ of their outlets think they will do better as Halal restaurants, it's down to them. It wouldn't surprise me if a large number of the stores making the change were run by muslims too.

FWIW, a friend of mine worked in IT for a large slaughterhouse that supplies some meat to UK super markets, and the bolt method doesn't work all the time - you don't want to be near a Cow after the first attempt has failed.

edit: also...

http://[domain blocked due to malware]/instances/500x/49525406.jpg

We really need an English version of that.
 
Limitation: Not being able to stock both
Exclusion: Stocking one but refusing to stock the other
Inclusion: Stocking both

Since Subway have now made a rod for their own backs, I'd like to see militant vegetarian and vegan groups picketing and protesting that they remove all meat and animal products because meat is murder and they find it offensive to have to see the tasty, tasty murder when ordering their sandwiches.
I'm personally waiting for an extreme Catholic group to demand that Subway refrain from selling meat on Fridays.
 
We really need an English version of that.

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