Handicap Access...

  • Thread starter Swift
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Pako
Because minority groups felt left out due to no fault of their own.
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...and? That means we should throw people in jail for making them feel "left out"?

If you started a business, and you needed a cashier, would you want the government telling you that you had to buy a special cash register so that if Stephen Hawking wanted to work at your store he could work the machine with his chin?? And that the penalty for NOT doing that is jail (and or steep fines).
 
danoff
...and? That means we should throw people in jail for making them feel "left out"?
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Sounds crazy now that we some balance in our society, but we had extreme issues that caused these laws to be made. Now that the majority of these extreme issues are now non-issues, we are starting to wonder if these laws are really necessary. So if we remove those laws, will we revert back to a time of racial and sexual discrimination in the work force? There are definitely some hard issues that both the victim and the employer must face. Can a reasonable modification be made to the work place to enable handicap people equal opportunity? What's wrong with society helping their own community members by making a job available to them? If it was not a law, private business would NOT make such modifications because of cost issues, all the while not seeing the long term cost effects of the government taking care of handicap people that can't get jobs.
 
Pako
Sounds crazy now that we some balance in our society, but we had extreme issues that caused these laws to be made. Now that the majority of these extreme issues are now non-issues, we are starting to wonder if these laws are really necessary. So if we remove those laws, will we revert back to a time of racial and sexual discrimination in the work force? There are definitely some hard issues that both the victim and the employer must face. Can a reasonable modification be made to the work place to enable handicap people equal opportunity? What's wrong with society helping their own community members by making a job available to them? If it was not a law, private business would NOT make such modifications because of cost issues, all the while not seeing the long term cost effects of the government taking care of handicap people that can't get jobs.
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Pako, I hate this kind of social engineering reasoning. That's not a valid reason for making law. The only thing that matters here is right or wrong. Should a person be free to discriminate with his business or not? I don't like sitting on the slippery slope - it makes you draw arbitrary lines in the sand. Lines like, "we have to have a ramp for access but the cash register can require fingers". I like arguments based on principle. When it comes to private property and private ownership I say "what's the point of owning something if everyone else owns it too"?
 
Don't you think it would be better if we, as a community, could take care of our own without needing Big Brother to step in? If we would have done that to begin with, we wouldn't have these laws.

So to answer your earlier question, "And why should it be illegal for businesses to discriminate?", it has also been recognized to be morally wrong and socially unacceptable by our elected officials.

I think private business owners should be allowed to hire or fire whom ever they choose for what ever reason, and they can. As an employer you have to be creative in your job descriptions and or reasons for firing employees so you don't end up with a lawsuit on your hands. The whole thing has gotten out of control. You can thank our lawyers and judges for letting it get out of control by setting a precedence that anyone can sue anyone for anything, all the while wasting tax payers dollars.

So back to the original topic, why are they forcing Swift's church to build a ramp to code up to the stage? To what purpose does it serve?
 
danoff
So you're agreeing with me? That we should eliminate these laws?
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I'm saying that there are valid reasons for these laws but that these laws have been exploited for personal gain and that judges allow this type of exploitation to continue.
 
Pako
I'm saying that there are valid reasons for these laws but that these laws have been exploited for personal gain and that judges allow this type of exploitation to continue.
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Amen to that!
 
Pako
I'm saying that there are valid reasons for these laws but that these laws have been exploited for personal gain and that judges allow this type of exploitation to continue.
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A "valid reason" to me would be protecting the rights of others, rather than protecting the "feelings" of others.
 
danoff
A "valid reason" to me would be protecting the rights of others, rather than protecting the "feelings" of others.
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Welcome to the wonderful world of "PC". Man I can't stand being PC. I think PC is a nice way to say a mean thing. If you dont' want to say it, then don't say it!

I know people that are scared to death to call me black. I'm Black. Big deal! They have to say "African American". That was at LEAST 4 generations ago! Oh well, it's the world of wussies that we live in. 👎
 
danoff
A "valid reason" to me would be protecting the rights of others, rather than protecting the "feelings" of others.
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Don't people 'feel' they have rights?

A minority group feels they have just as much right to be hired as a majority group. I think we're talking about the same thing.
 
Pako
Don't people 'feel' they have rights?

A minority group feels they have just as much right to be hired as a majority group. I think we're talking about the same thing.
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Nobody has the right to be hired by anyone - regardless of their feelings. People's rights also do not depend on their feelings.
 
danoff
Nobody has the right to be hired by anyone - regardless of their feelings. People's rights also do not depend on their feelings.
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Do woman find you insensitive? ;)

Just kidding..., but seriously, America has promoted the land of opportunity. A right of living in the US. Part of that right is to be treated equally regardless of person attributes such as skin color, accent, appearance, sexual preference, gender, etc....

A fight for someone's right is preceeded by feelings, feelings of injustice, fear, hate, anger, etc. Someone felt a certain way about how things were and saw a need for it to be changed.
 
Pako
Just kidding..., but seriously, America has promoted the land of opportunity. A right of living in the US. Part of that right is to be treated equally regardless of person attributes such as skin color, accent, appearance, sexual preference, gender, etc....
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You have no right to be treated equally by anyone except your elected officials. Otherwise would imply that they do not have the right to treat you as they choose.

A fight for someone's right is preceeded by feelings, feelings of injustice, fear, hate, anger, etc. Someone felt a certain way about how things were and saw a need for it to be changed.
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It should be preceeded by reason.
 
I'm reminded of Big Gay Al's speech, after the courts force the Scouts to take him back.
 
Famine
I'm reminded of Big Gay Al's speech, after the courts force the Scouts to take him back.
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Exactly! That's the height of the hypocracy of political correctness.
 
A customer has a right to sit in a restaurant and order food. The sign on the door says, "OPEN". It is this customers opinion that he should have a right to eat there, after all it is open. The store owner doesn't want to serve "those kind" and feels he should have a right to refuse such service, after all, it's his restaurant so he exercises his right and kicks the customer out.

Opinions, rights, social acceptance, racial ignorance....it's all there.

Some rights are just wrong.
 
Pako
A customer has a right to sit in a restaurant and order food. The sign on the door says, "OPEN". It is this customers opinion that he should have a right to eat there, after all it is open. The store owner doesn't want to serve "those kind" and feels he should have a right to refuse such service, after all, it's his restaurant so he exercises his right and kicks the customer out.

Opinions, rights, social acceptance, racial ignorance....it's all there.

Some rights are just wrong.
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Now the customer is naked, but for a Winchester Pump, and steaming drunk (say a blood alcohol level of 81mg/l).

Why can't the private restaurant owner kick him out?
 
How can a thief sue a home owner when the home owner shoots the thief while the thief was stealing from their house? I have had judges tell me off the record that if I am going to shoot a thief in my house, shoot to kill or he will steal you blind through our court system.

@Famine:
Because he's got a shotgun and the restaurant owner has a spatula. :)
 
Indeed. But assuming the guy isn't breaking any law (he's in a state where he's allowed to carry a shotgun and express his beliefs in naturism. Or something), why would it be reasonable of me to throw him out of my private property, but not reasonable of me to throw out a homosexual, or Jew, or black man?
 
Famine
Indeed. But assuming the guy isn't breaking any law (he's in a state where he's allowed to carry a shotgun and express his beliefs in naturism. Or something), why would it be reasonable of me to throw him out of my private property, but not reasonable of me to throw out a homosexual, or Jew, or black man?
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Until all the naked, gun toting drunks lobby for new law, we will continue to be able to kick them out on the premise of indecent exposure, and or being a danger to society or himself (alcohol and firearms....).
 
I did say "assuming the guy isn't breaking any law (he's in a state where he's allowed to carry a shotgun and express his beliefs in naturism. Or something)".

Nevertheless, it's telling that you'd assume a naked man with a shotgun and an 81mg/l blood alcohol level (that's just over the maximum drink/drive limit in the UK and about 3 pints in an hour - Andy "The Viking" Fordham drinks 7 times that whilst playing darts and manages, somehow, to be world champion. Darts are also potentially deadly weapons) is a "danger to society or himself".


What might lead you to this conclusion? His (legal) nudity? His (legal) firearm-carrying? His (legal) alcohol level? None of these things - on their own or combined - would instantly mark the guy out as being a "danger to society or himself". But you think it'd be reasonable for a private landowner to draw this conclusion and not allow the man on his premises.


People think homosexuality is a danger to society - with similar baseless foundations. Why is it less reasonable for a private landowner to not allow homosexuals on his premises?
 
MrktMkr1986
Since we're running around in circles:

If reason originates from the brain, is it possible for a group of people to have two (or more) different schools of reasoning?
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Sure, there are exactly two schools - right and wrong.

Just kidding. Of couse people are going to come to different conclusions. It's the most logical, carefully reasoned argument that wins.

My only point is that legal rights should be determined not emotionally or by considering feelings, but rather, logically - and out of necessity.
 
Because it isn't socially acceptable any more to refuse service to individuals because of their sexual orientation, there was a time it was acceptable. So it comes down to socially acceptable behavior, don't you think?
 

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