Has Forza 3 suppressed you appetite for GT5?

[Dave A]

In GT4 you could only adjust downforce on cars with aerodynamic parts equipped. The ones that you could change came pre-installed with aero parts, visible or not. For others, you had to buy a rear wing (although for some reason, a rear wing give you downforce for the front, which i don't think is entirely accurate - So just assumed buying a wing is like buying an aerodynamic package). Some cars could have both, like the Tommykaira ZZII, which has some aero adjustment options initially, and you can buy a wing which just adds to it.

They really need to improve the aerodynamic adjustments for GT5. A lot of high end race cars rely on Aerodynamic grip more than mechanical grip so GT needs to take this into account rather than just putting a half arsed wing setup in the game.

The upgrade description when you purchase the wing in GT4 actually tells you that you are purchasing a rear wing and a front splitter package. The front splitter wasn't visually represented in the game, but that's why you could adjust the front downforce as well as the rear.

 

[myke6699]

On the subject of tuning and upgrade: I came across this reality show called Team Schrick (German with english subtitles) on Youtube. It's about turning a second hand Aston Martin DB7 into a full-fledged racing car, good enough to compete in the Nurburgring 24 hr race and to do it in span of just 9 months. A great premise.

It's in several episode:
[YOUTUBEHD]CY1GqekUIKY[/YOUTUBEHD]

 

[Chronos]

Give GT5 public custom lobbies, realistic and balanced classing and a more direct commitment to making the racing the prime focus of the game and you can expect a huge influx of former Forza fanatics like myself showing up here in the coming months.

I wouldn't bank on GT5 delivering all that but who knows. The language barrier and PD's lack of experience could mean we have something similar. People have been moaning to have private rooms for the GT5P but its just a short intro to the early progress, its not even a demo of GT5 as this this will be quite different in many areas. GT5P has these small set of events that are changed each month which suit the low number of tracks and cars and group everyone together. Really its just a test for PD. I'm sure they'll have these limited events for casual players and private rooms. Not seen much mention of public rooms where you can tailor the laps and assists, cars etc. Can PD hit the ground running for their first time with a wealth of online options and customization, mics that work?

I think everything can co-exist and GT has a broad fanbase of G25/DFP wheel users who play PC/PS2/PS3 games and pad players. It would be great if PD include what many here are used to with PC sims and of course everyone here wants public rooms too but no private rooms to pass the time in prologue has been the main problem.

I'm sure GT5 will have better distinction and leaderboards for each car. I'm really surprised how T10 have handled online in FM3. I can't play the nurburgring until they let me lol and even then it won't be the cars I want. I could find some like minded players with public rooms but T10 want to focus on a more substantial quick match, very similar to GT5P.

Even if T10 add public rooms, it seems the faithful wouldn't be happy with that as there's much more to fix.

One thing I think GT5 will have is a game of such great presentation, variety of single player and content. The sheer excellence and attention to detail of the offline will do me. Working air brakes etc etc. Faithful recreation. PD are in a league of their own in game code. Fm3 tried to do a bit of this GT thing but really its turned into a bit of everything. As a console game GT has nothing to worry about. Kaz can't stop smiling. But I'm skeptical on day one the online will be what some western gamers want.

I can't but think the moaning of some here and on fm.net should go and play iracing instead of hoping shift, supercar challenge, GT5 and Forza will satisfy. Get's a bit boring people decrying GT5 for what it never was about. Maybe GT5 will be a racer too but really its a car lifestyle game. It's like people have never played GT and have some unrealistic demands and moan how poor GT5p is and moan GT5 might not do it.

 

[happycorey]

I still don't get it. English is not my 1st language, so please understand that I don't get phrases like that. Could you explain it yourself in the appropriate context?

Basically "looking back" is what hindsight means.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

Yes Forza 3 has suppressed my appetite for GT5. My gf asked me if I wanted a PS3 for christmas and I told her to just wait until GT5 comes out. Forza 3 will easily hold me over for a long time, which is how long it will be before GT5 comes out anyway.

 

[speedy_2]

Meanwhile, over at the Forza forums, the horrible decisions they've made in taking the game away from being a racer and towards being a paint your car and show off your pictures and videos on YouTube game has many people, like myself, finding ourselves now with a huge appetite for GT5. Ironic.

PD has a opportunity here, and I do hope they've been paying attention to the uproar over at FM.net over the many issues that in alot of the long time Forza hardcore's eyes are killing the game.

I won't go into them all, but here's the 3 main things that have me looking forward to the release of GT5, where just a mere month ago, all I wanted was Forza.

1. There are no more real racing classes. In FM2 you had 4 real racing classes where real world race cars were grouped. These cars were replica's of many of the greats from LeMans and the ALMS. These cars could not be upgraded, painted or tuned. They were as close to sim racing as you could get on the game, and I, along with many others loved them. They still have what they are calling R classes. But now they've allowed upgrades/downgrades to all of them and have allowed max upgraded production class cars into mix as well. Predictably, this has left the real world racing cars in the dust, they have no chance.

2. The PI system is more flawed than it's ever been. AWD dominates everything on the game. The PI system has been designed so that it's a performance advantage to swap drivetrains of RWD cars to AWD. Take a look around, and you'll see nothing but AWD Dodge Vipers, Ford GT's and even AWD 60's American Muscle classics dominating every single leaderboard. And by extension, dominating every single online race. RWD cars have no chance.

3. Matchmaking multiplayer. The great thing about FM2 was the ability to set up a lobby how you wanted it and people could then search that out and join. That ability is gone, replaced with the matchmaking system that limits choice to a handful of classes, random tracks and a predetermined number of laps. They also withheld this information till release, and made deceiving public statements that they were just going to add things for FM3 without taking away any of the functionality that the core users had come to expect. Needless to say, this has caused a huge uproar among the Forza faithful and has sold more PS3's and copies of GT5 than any long term Forza fan could have of ever imagined.

There's a long laundry list of other complaints I won't get into. I just hope that the folks at PD are paying attention to this. They have a opportunity here to crush T10. And given Dan Greenwalt's arrogant and disrespectful attitude and underhanded tactics in regard to PD, I would think they're looking to put T10 out of business.

Give GT5 public custom lobbies, realistic and balanced classing and a more direct commitment to making the racing the prime focus of the game and you can expect a huge influx of former Forza fanatics like myself showing up here in the coming months.

Boom. These are the points I have realized form reading about Forza. Pages and pages about "My paint job on my Mustang." Or "My AWD 700HP Civic." Sorry, but this is a little retarded. I really do hope Polyphony is taking note of this. Sometimes less is more. And in this case, more can really screw the game up, especially the online experience like you said with the crazy modded cars dominating the charts.

They should limit or at least classify cars better. Let there be a section for those crazy modded cars. I myself would not make 1 crazy car and use it through the whole game. A true sim fan would want to drive every car. 1HP-1000HP. Tricking out your car seems to be a "must-have" yet it's only one very small aspect of the game.

 

[happycorey]

Tricking out your car seems to be a "must-have" yet it's only one very small aspect of the game.

If I couldn't modify my car I would not be into GT. 90% of the reason I refused GT PSP

 

[speedy_2]

If I couldn't modify my car I would not be into GT. 90% of the reason I refused GT PSP

I think you misinterpreted my use of "tricked out." I meant cosmetic modifications only.

 

[happycorey]

Ahh I see. Still, it adds a lot of FM3 by allowing you to create your own cars, rather than the same car a couple different colors on the track.

 

[Dave A]

The problem with Forza 3 isn't that it lets you swap engines and drive trains, it's how these modifactions affect the car. Making a Viper 4wd would not magically make it better at taking corners. If anything, a 4wd Viper should be a dog to steer. It's too long, it's already failry heavy and a conversion would no doubt affect the cars balance. Giving your car a 4wd mod in Forza 3 seems to be the ultimate performance upgrade, it shouldn't be. I love the idea of going that deep into the customisation, but I want it to be realistic.

 

[happycorey]

That's the problem I've always thought PD would have when implementing all of said mods. Areo parts would effect the car at certain times, and the weight, and the in depth engine mods should improve the characteristics of the performance that they are improving.

I would LOVE engine swaps on GT, but the way it would make the car handle and where it is placed is what PD would take into account, and I think they don't want to take it that far yet

 

[McLaren]

Boom. These are the points I have realized form reading about Forza. Pages and pages about "My paint job on my Mustang." Or "My AWD 700HP Civic." Sorry, but this is a little retarded. I really do hope Polyphony is taking note of this. Sometimes less is more. And in this case, more can really screw the game up, especially the online experience like you said with the crazy modded cars dominating the charts.

More retarded than fully modifying the cars in GT letting them hit 300mph? At least some of the mods in Forza 3 are semi-realistic.

 

[speedy_2]

Agreed. 300MPH is possible with a few cars. But, repeatedly doing it no. And of course the fuel consumption. If realistic fuel consumption was added 300mph wouldn't last long. lol.

 

[Seismica]

The problem with Forza 3 isn't that it lets you swap engines and drive trains, it's how these modifactions affect the car. Making a Viper 4wd would not magically make it better at taking corners. If anything, a 4wd Viper should be a dog to steer. It's too long, it's already failry heavy and a conversion would no doubt affect the cars balance. Giving your car a 4wd mod in Forza 3 seems to be the ultimate performance upgrade, it shouldn't be. I love the idea of going that deep into the customisation, but I want it to be realistic.

Its taken them so long to refine the tuning from GT1 to make the tunes more realistic. If they added loads of extra tuning options i also want it to be realistic. I'd rather they perfect what is already there than add things that arn't realistic.

More retarded than fully modifying the cars in GT letting them hit 300mph? At least some of the mods in Forza 3 are semi-realistic.

That was only possible using NOS i believe. You could maybe hit 250-260 without.

I think it may be possible that a Veyron stripped out of all its unnecessary weight and with NOS could hit 300. But its one expensive, difficult and dangerous task.

 

[McLaren]

Agreed. 300MPH is possible with a few cars. But, repeatedly doing it no. And of course the fuel consumption. If realistic fuel consumption was added 300mph wouldn't last long. lol.

Agreed as well. FM3 has actually cut back so some cars aren't going as fast as they used to in FM2, but like GT, it's still going too far.

Hopefully, KY is going all out for GT5, in this particular area (i.e. tuning).

That was only possible using NOS i believe. You could maybe hit 250-260 without, which is very possible, just expensive.

Sorry, it's still unrealistic. The shape of the some the cars in GT, & lack of the actual, required downforce, should have kept many cars from even hitting 220....

 

[sejtur]

Basically "looking back" is what hindsight means.

Yes I know, I searched it up, but I don't what purpose that word has in context with his argument. It's probably sarcastic, but I still don't know what he means with it. Somebody please enlighten me.

 

[Dave A]

Then why not PM him?

McLaren is right, reaching silly speeds is hard to achieve. The Veyron could hit slightly higher speeds without it's electronic limiter in place but the problem with them trying to go faster is the tyre's. Having tyre's that are designed to cope with regular use in varying conditions and with high speeds is a mammoth task in itself. The Veyron's tyre's are pushed as far as they safely can be at 252mph. most cars built to go faster than that run specially designed high speed tyre's, not only that but a lot of cars that run at such speeds only run in short bursts and regularly have thier engines stripped and re-built.

You have to remember that increasing power to go faster isn't a case of 100bhp = an extra 10mph. The faster you go the stronger the friction and other forces are against your car, as speed increases the power required to achieve that speed is multiplied. For example and this is in no way an accurate sum because a lot is involved, butthe idea is there for illustrative purposes, you can have a 600bhp car with a top speed of 210mph. Say you add 50bhp and your top speed increases to 215mph, you can add a nother 50bhp but that will not get you to 220mph, it could require another 200bhp to get to 220mph meaning your car now has 850bhp.

The power required to reach certain speeds varies from car to car, the cars drag plays a huge role and equally importantly the car must not produce lift or the car wil literally take off. And that's bad.

I remember watching a 5th Gear episode where Tiff was tring to get a Lotus Esprit upto 220mph or something like that. He bolted on turbo's, nitrous injection and other parts to cope with the increased power and you know what, he failed.

 

[happycorey]

How hard can it be? Hahah.

However though, having a car reach a high speed, while being light enough to move the car, but heavy enough to keep from lifting, or having enough downforce to keep it on the ground and having enough lift to get it up to the speed without lifting/floating away

 

[chepu]

The problem with Forza 3 isn't that it lets you swap engines and drive trains, it's how these modifactions affect the car. Making a Viper 4wd would not magically make it better at taking corners. If anything, a 4wd Viper should be a dog to steer. It's too long, it's already failry heavy and a conversion would no doubt affect the cars balance. Giving your car a 4wd mod in Forza 3 seems to be the ultimate performance upgrade, it shouldn't be. I love the idea of going that deep into the customisation, but I want it to be realistic.

THAT!, i love how deep and how much posibilities does the FM3 customization system gives, but some things are Just plain Stupid, i just cant imagine an AWD Viper being faster than a viper ACR, because the problem is that the forza system only calculates the Grip and traction in all wheels, but doesnt calculate weight distribution, torque distribution and how does that AWD system behave in that chassis.

Same with engine Internals, and in this part Gran turismo have done it better, because the FM3 system lets you use High Compression Pistons\Rods\Camshafts with Huge turbo setups, instead the GT system is more real because if you happen to tune your engine for a N/A purpose it just wont accept Forced induction due to its high Compression, or else itll just blow away.

Instead of powertrain Swaps i Would prefer something like a Racing Modification, for example if your car is FF, it will always stay like that, but you will be able to swap compatible FF engines, and if you want to take it a step forward, why not something like a racing modification where itll change the car to a tubular chassis, moving the engine towards to the middle and getting all the suspension stuff distributed in a better way.

So instead of an AWD 4000 Hp Civic, why not a real 450 Hp FF full blown race civic with racing chassis that because of its fine chassis/engine tuning can be capable of racing 800 Hp vipers...

Long Story Short: instead of crazy, whacky or simply stupid All you can Name Conversions, why not specific fine tuning for each Kind of car?

 

[TRC GeorgiaDawg]

The problem with Forza 3 isn't that it lets you swap engines and drive trains, it's how these modifactions affect the car. Making a Viper 4wd would not magically make it better at taking corners. If anything, a 4wd Viper should be a dog to steer. It's too long, it's already failry heavy and a conversion would no doubt affect the cars balance. Giving your car a 4wd mod in Forza 3 seems to be the ultimate performance upgrade, it shouldn't be. I love the idea of going that deep into the customisation, but I want it to be realistic.

Exactly, a 900hp AWD car with a long wheelbase like a Viper, Ford GT or 69 Cuda (AWD in classic 60's American Muscle is just shocking) should be near impossible to get around a corner. Except it's not.

One of the first things I noticed when I started hotlapping was just how much turn in these cars had with a bare minimum of tuning. It's almost as if they corner like a RWD car, but have the grip of AWD. They're so easy to drive it's laughable.

 

[Tenacious D]

Wow... a few posts appeared above mine this afternoon.

Besides being schooled on the aero tuning - which I did make it sound like all cars had aero tuning options and not just modifieds, TRC's posts really caught me off guard. I'd been staying away from drivetrain swapping just because it seemed to take away what was different about the true 4WD cars, like the 3000GTs, WRXs and Skylines. But now it flat out sounds like cheating. I was unaware that you could pretty much do this with the whole car list, wow. Plus, now supercars are outperforming race cars?? Good grief... I know in GT4, you could soup up a car like mad, but they were still slippery monsters compared to a true race car for the most part.

And now I'm finding out that you can't save hundreds of decals, photos or liveries without a consequence. Just a few dozen will make your 360 roll over and play dead when you try to search through them. With all these flaws in such an otherwise nifty game, I can see why the Forza community is a little cranky.

This is all making me hungry for GT5 again...

 

[Lain]

Wow... a few posts appeared above mine this afternoon.

Besides being schooled on the aero tuning - which I did make it sound like all cars had aero tuning options and not just modifieds, TRC's posts really caught me off guard. I'd been staying away from drivetrain swapping just because it seemed to take away what was different about the true 4WD cars, like the 3000GTs, WRXs and Skylines. But now it flat out sounds like cheating. I was unaware that you could pretty much do this with the whole car list, wow. Plus, now supercars are outperforming race cars?? Good grief... I know in GT4, you could soup up a car like mad, but they were still slippery monsters compared to a true race car for the most part.

And now I'm finding out that you can't save hundreds of decals, photos or liveries without a consequence. Just a few dozen will make your 360 roll over and play dead when you try to search through them. With all these flaws in such an otherwise nifty game, I can see why the Forza community is a little cranky.

This is all making me hungry for GT5 again...

I think people are exaggerating the amount of cars that can have their drivetrain swapped. And of all the cars that you can swap drivetrains with, not all of them can be made into 4WD. I personally have encountered more cars that cannot be converted to 4WD than can.

 

[Pierced Lead]

In GT4 you could only adjust downforce on cars with aerodynamic parts equipped. The ones that you could change came pre-installed with aero parts, visible or not. For others, you had to buy a rear wing (although for some reason, a rear wing give you downforce for the front, which i don't think is entirely accurate - So just assumed buying a wing is like buying an aerodynamic package). Some cars could have both, like the Tommykaira ZZII, which has some aero adjustment options initially, and you can buy a wing which just adds to it.

They really need to improve the aerodynamic adjustments for GT5. A lot of high end race cars rely on Aerodynamic grip more than mechanical grip so GT needs to take this into account rather than just putting a half arsed wing setup in the game.

Since there was a wind tunnel in that GT5 trailer they better...

 

[Seismica]

By the sounds of the above posts i will like Forza 3. I find there is a great lack of 4WD cars in GT and i think they're brilliant, the understeer can always be reduced with a good suspension. But i would've though Lamborghinis not Vipers/GTs would top the boards? Given that they start as 4WD and are mid-engined :/

Leaderboards should be like GT5P, stock cars only.

Since there was a wind tunnel in that GT5 trailer they better...

Another reason why aerodynamic adjustments are pretty much confirmed.

 

[TRC GeorgiaDawg]

I think people are exaggerating the amount of cars that can have their drivetrain swapped. And of all the cars that you can swap drivetrains with, not all of them can be made into 4WD. I personally have encountered more cars that cannot be converted to 4WD than can.

Depends all on the manufacturer. Some have them, some don't. Ford, Dodge, Nissan, Toyota and VW have them, while Chevrolet, Honda and Mazda don't. Don't believe me, go to A class and look at a top Ford GT replay, or one of my S class Dodge Viper CC's, or the replays of other top hardcore guys like EMW Mayhem or Daveyskills in S class, turn on the telemetry and look at the friction on the front tires. Same with all the Dodge Vipers. Same with the old school Cuda's and Chargers. Go into the lower classes (E and F) and look at all the Golf's dominating everything. They are all AWD swapped.

I am not exaggerating anything here. I've played this game on a hardcore level since FM2. I hate that I'm having to post these facts, but they are indeed facts.

 

[Lain]

Depends all on the manufacturer. Some have them, some don't. Ford, Dodge, Nissan, Toyota and VW have them, while Chevrolet, Honda and Mazda don't. Don't believe me, go to A class and look at a top Ford GT replay, or one of my S class Dodge Viper CC's, or the replays of other top hardcore guys like EMW Mayhem or Daveyskills in S class, turn on the telemetry and look at the friction on the front tires. Same with all the Dodge Vipers. Same with the old school Cuda's and Chargers. Go into the lower classes (E and F) and look at all the Golf's dominating everything. They are all AWD swapped.

I am not exaggerating anything here. I've played this game on a hardcore level since FM2. I hate that I'm having to post these facts, but they are indeed facts.

Oh, I'm sure that all the cars that can have their drivetrain swapped to 4WD are being swapped.

 

[Jay]

I remember watching a 5th Gear episode where Tiff was tring to get a Lotus Esprit upto 220mph or something like that. He bolted on turbo's, nitrous injection and other parts to cope with the increased power and you know what, he failed.

The engine gave in before he made it IIRC, but he got close.

Anyway these high speeds (~300mph) in GT are possible (IRL) with enough power, but you have to take aerodynamics into careful consideration especially the underbody which in GT so far we haven't been able to modify.

 

[Seismica]

I remember watching a 5th Gear episode where Tiff was tring to get a Lotus Esprit upto 220mph or something like that. He bolted on turbo's, nitrous injection and other parts to cope with the increased power and you know what, he failed.

I watched that on youtube earlier. They were doing it on a very small budget. They spent around £32,000 including the £23,000 for the car itself. The Engine was stock with a few turbos and a cooling system added, the driveshaft and gearbox were stock, the tyres were simply replaced, but they wern't designed for top speed. They used NOS, but the car had <700bhp even when applied.

With more time and a lot more money it would have been achievable. In GT you spend near double the cost of the original purchase on tuning alone. And even then, only cars with 900bhp+ with powerful NOS which probably takes it up above 1100 could hit 300mph in GT4. Still unrealistic i agree now. It was the NOS in GT4 that allowed those crazy speeds, you couldn't get above 270ish without it no matter how much bhp you had.

 

[happycorey]

Since there was a wind tunnel in that GT5 trailer they better...

I wouldn't take that seriously though, to be in the game. It would be really cool, but it's probably much the same as the commercial for FM2 where the 350Z was on a dyno and a wind tunnel thing at the same time.

And even then, only cars with 900bhp+ with powerful NOS which probably takes it up above 1100 could hit 300mph in GT4. Still unrealistic i agree now. It was the NOS in GT4 that allowed those crazy speeds, you couldn't get above 270ish without it no matter how much bhp you had.

I rememeber my Lotus Espirit in GT4 would hit around 310mph, although I don't really remember how much hp it had the sheer amount of NOS dumped into the engine over a 20-30 second sprint probably would have destroyed the motor before I even got close.

 

[Jay]

In GT you spend near double the cost of the original purchase on tuning alone.

Depends on the car but it wasn't unusual to spent 5-10 times the purchase price with many of the cars (Supras, GTR's, Viper etc)

And even then, only cars with 900bhp+ with powerful NOS which probably takes it up above 1100 could hit 300mph in GT4. Still unrealistic i agree now. It was the NOS in GT4 that allowed those crazy speeds, you couldn't get above 270ish without it no matter how much bhp you had.

I estimated at the time Nitrous must be bumping the power in some (Super, Skyline GTR, Viper etc) cars upto around 1500-1800hp, for example get a fully tuned R34 Skyline GTR (without using Nitrous) and it has around 950hp but then press the nitrous button and it makes a HUGE difference, much more that 100-150hp (for 1100 total) and to get a car from 260-270mph to 300 would take a crap load extra power.

The unrealistic parts are there is no engine/drivetrain damage and the cars mostly can handle the high speeds with too much stability (among other things) unless you really tune them strangely (Toyota TS020 GT One for example).