Has PD gone overboard with graphics?

[Dave A]

I'm sorry but "I'll love GT no matter what the next one is like" is a stupid comment. The next one could turn out to be the biggest turd of a racer ever. It could be by far the most disspointing GT game yet. By contrast it could turn out to be the GT game that GT fans like me have been waiting for and be astonishingly good. but to say you'll love GT no matter what it's like is basically saying you'll love it even if it's crap. I really liked GT1, GT2 and GT3, I didn't like GT4 that much, and I'd never love GT4 just because I liked GT1, 2 and 3, where GT is at now is what counts, not where they were. Your totally right about how good a game is being personal opinion and that will change depending on who you ask, but that's not what I was bringing up. You say you'll buy GT5 and GT5rologue without hesitation, what if theres 4 other PS3 games out by then, all more realisitc than GT5 with more content and with better playbility by your standards, with GT5's severely lacking. Would you still buy it without hesitation, or would you be sensible and think about it, and buy the game you think is the best.

 

[Eric.]

I voted for the last option. Formula One has great visual effects with 22 cars on screen and runs buttery smooth at 720p. The replays don't look very good for some reason, but that is definitely one of PD's strong points. I hate watching replays from anything but GT, its the only one that looks believable somehow.

 

[David Brooks]

some fast foward and rewind controls on the replaly would be a handy feature, and i'm sure the PS3 can handle that without comprimising car graphics detail.

 

[G.T]

I hate watching replays from anything but GT, its the only one that looks believable somehow.

I get the exact same feeling. The camera angles and the overall "feel" just isn't the same as from GT games. PRG3 wasn't too bad, but that still didn't hit the spot. 👍 to the rewind feature suggested above.

On topic with the graphics, I also voted for the bottom option. PD should be able to make the graphics as good as possible at this time, but still leave enough time to improve the sound. That's my main niggle at the moment. A few racing games on the next-gen consoles have managed realistic enough sounds already, so there shouldn't really be any excuses...

 

[matherto]

The PS3 isn't going to struggle, it has a huge amount of memory, wich has to be able to run all extra's.

It doesn't have a huge amount of memory at all

 

[EJRocky]

I'm sorry but "I'll love GT no matter what the next one is like" is a stupid comment. The next one could turn out to be the biggest turd of a racer ever. It could be by far the most disspointing GT game yet. By contrast it could turn out to be the GT game that GT fans like me have been waiting for and be astonishingly good. but to say you'll love GT no matter what it's like is basically saying you'll love it even if it's crap.

Well, mate, it's up to me what I like and do not like, thank you very much.

 

[Stevisiov]

I have always looked at the GT series as having the best graphics in it genre perhaps even on the console. In that respect I am always impressed when I watch the new intro and think Wow the graphics cant be this good in the actuall game but they are amazing in game. For me getting the new eagerly anticipated GT game I would be thourghly dissapointed if the graphics don't blow me away as ussual. Now this fundamentally isn't really that important to making it the greatest driving sim however it would be like loosing a valuable trademark of the game

 

[EJRocky]

You know what, I don't mind if GT5 won't have these graphics you have in GTHD. I'll be happy if they were exactly like the ones in the GT4 opening movie, then PD has only got to do up the graphics a tiny bit and save the rest of thier resources for AI, cars, stuff like that. 👍

 

[Tenacious D]

I'm sorry but "I'll love GT no matter what the next one is like" is a stupid comment.

The reason it's not a stupid comment is because I'm not an anal PC sim freak who insists that if you can't do a spanking fun donut, the game sucks. I take every game for what it is, but it has to deliver a decent driving experience.

Just check out my sig. Right now I'm trying to get past World Tour level 18 in Toca 3 because the bots are turning into those beasts JohnBM01 talked about. Toca has many many things wrong with it. The physics is decent but it feels scripted in many ways, such as certain sections of certain tracks with certain cars, they skid and smoke and squeal unless you're doing 20mph or so. I took the Lancia Stratos on a rally run, and the thing even in low speed acts like it's in freaking snow instead of on a dry gravel road! The bot cars in later levels are in many cases just demolition derby drivers. The engine sounds in many cars are atrocious, and in replays, the only engine sound comes from my car! In fact, it's often a very BAD engine sound that sounds missampled. The steering with a DF Pro is completely weird.

But you know what? It counters that with a lot of good things. The sense of being involved with a car is very good. Steering with the DF Pro is quite controllable if you fuss with the settings. The view of the road is excellent with a realistic 3D perspective. It has an insane selection of racing and several separate career modes. So I'm happy with my purchase and I'm going to tough it out until I can't progress anymore because the bots just wreck me out to the point of frustration.

So how do Gran Turismo and Toca compare to your beloved PC games like GTR and LFS (which I couldn't get to work properly yet).

GTR

• The graphics are decidedly last gen.
• No crew chief to help you with the staggering car adjustments.
• The view of the road could be better, even with chase cam, so approaching turns is a trial and error pain. Constant warning flags from running off the track from badly taken turns
• My connection to the car is bad, so driving is a chore. It feels floaty so control and immersion are lame. This is the biggest fail of the racing games I dislike.
• Since both driving and taking turns is a chore, racing is a frustrating mess. Wrecks are too common.
• Since wrecks are too common, damage is such a headache, I turn it off.
• Since wrecks are still too common, taking turns is questionable, driving the car is frustrating, winning a race is all but doomed.
• To top it off, StarForce copy protection virus sucks.

And Live For Speed wouldn't even work right. And you know my views on Enthusia. Forza was good though, if even sim-cadier than GT or Toca.

One game series has consistently delivered an excellent racing experience for me. It puts me in the car like no other game. It has an excellent view of the road, so I can drive the car like it's a car, not a collection of polygons. The physics are more than good enough to enable me to drive the car, and the car communicates with me so I know what I'm doing better than any other game out. The graphics rival those of just about any game out. Am I going to buy the next game in the series?

Without question.

 

[Earth]

Great post Tenacious D +rep

I agree with alot that you said. So called 'realistic' in car views in PC driving 'sims' are a joke. It's so lame that most of the time you can only see out of only HALF of your own windshield!!

How is anyone expected to race at 150mph when you basicly have tunnel vision? Thanks but no thanks. I'll stick to bumper view or roof view/3rd person until someone gets the cockpit view right.

One of the Great things about the GT series is as you mention your connection with the car to the road..I have always griped about not being able to 'feel' the car, not knowing if I was beginning to lose traction, if it was tight, loose..but with FF and the DFP all that changed

I'm buying GT5...if they gave out preorders now I would preorder it. I've played what essentially is the demo in GTHD and it looks fine. Also KY has talked about the online features etc etc and things are looking up. By now we know pretty much what we're getting with GT5, anything more is icing on the cake

 

[Dave A]

The reason it's not a stupid comment is because I'm not an anal PC sim freak who insists that if you can't do a spanking fun donut, the game sucks. I take every game for what it is, but it has to deliver a decent driving experience.

and there you have it, if GT5 doesn't deliver a great driving experience, you're basically saying you will love it anyway by saying "I'll love GT no matter what". What if, by you're standards, GT5 is crap, complete and utter carp and you can't enjoy it at all. Will you still love it and buy it withut hesitation. Because EJRocky apparently will. I'll love GT5 if it's a good game, I loved GT1, GT2 and GT3, I didn't think GT4 was that great. I take each game as it comes, I don't love a GT game because it's a GT game. I think you're totally missing my point here.

 

[dunkee]

I think PD is gonna stick to their same formula..if it ain't broke don't fix it type of mentality. The reason why it sells is cause its damn near visually perfect and beautiful. Its never gonna be a better sim bc it has no reason to. It will prob drive very similar to GTHD. And that's great but so sorry very boring.

And yes doing 360s is fun...having fun is good. Looking at pretty things only entertains for so long..then the wow factor will go away and your left wanting more. Playing online will add to it though so thank god for that. I see GT similar to PGR but more "simcadey". I hardly play PGR anymore though.

I think they got the graphics down so please focus on making more of an entertaining game and give all the cars more personality when driving.

 

[Tenacious D]

and there you have it, if GT5 doesn't deliver a great driving experience

lfs, you are one of the most perplexing posters here. You've said that GT4 offers a great driving experience. You've said the opposite. So from now on, I'll assume you do indeed think the worst of GT4.

However.

If you don't like the game, you really are in the wrong place, and are doing the equivalent of trolling. What would the people and the mods say if I decided to invade the LFS and Enthusia sections to try and school people about how atrocious their games are? "Why should I spend $45 on a hobby build of a so-called game that only has a handful of cars and tracks, almost all fake, which won't even run right?" Do you think maybe my time is better spent on boards with games I actually enjoy?

Another thing is, as I posted previously, every game has issues. If you ignore problems for your favorite games while dogging relentlessly on another, you're being nothing but a fanboy. The issues I and others have with GTR and other PC sims aren't just matters of taste or vague unfounded opinions. In my case, they are dealbreakers. I mean seriously. If you can't see the road well, if you can't feel the car much at all, if you can't satisfactorily navigate the track, what is the freaking point of it all?

Live For Speed is another matter. Not being able to get the thing to run right is a big disappointment to me, because it does seem like some very effective work went into the game. I played with the physics, torture testing it with the few cars I had available, and it seems very well built if unfinished. But there are issues with it, such as the fantasy cars, and getting it to work to my satisfaction. The graphics wouldn't work properly with my GeForce 6800 GTS, they look decidedly 16 bit, like they were running on an old Riva card. I couldn't get the camera to function properly, and I have to be able to see the way I want. The cars and tracks are almost all fantasy combobulations. Is that bad? Well, I prefer real cars. I love collecting real cars. I do think it's odd and disappointing, but what the heck. The main thing that makes me cringe is asking the amount of money they want for a hobby build of a game that seems to only be happy on European PCs, and only with the limited content, almost all fake.

Do I grouch about that? No, I was smart enough to not listen to the fanatical ranting of the fans and got the demo. I'm just not into all the headaches of PC gaming anymore anyway. Outside of Half Life, Battlefield, Rainbow Six and my MMORPG, Anarchy Online, I'm pretty much done with PC gaming. Will I try and flame PC gamers ito thinking like me? What's the point? If they like their games, great, that's what freedom of choice is all about.

I think certain people could heed that lesson.

In any case, there's going to be a GT5 Prologue coming this fall. Since that idiot MS tool Immersion came to terms with Sony, it looks like force feedback patches will be forthcoming for all racing games, and future games will joyfully be twitching DF Pros and G25s. Having not gotten my much lusted after PS3 yet, I have no experience with the GT HD demo, but the graphics have me hot and bothered to get hold of it, and every taste of GT5 I can get my high definition hands on. I have a feeling that Prologue is going to have me glued to my seat, forgetting my other games for quite some time, and have us all deciding that near-photoreal graphics are an essential ingredient in racing games from here on out.

Now if Kaz and the lads can deliver 12-20 cars on asphalt, I'll be in heaven. If not, I'll have to settle for paradise.

 

[Dave A]

You've gone way off track here. My point has nothing to do with other games that currently exist and your or my preference to them, nor am I saying GT5 will be crap. I have high hoes for GT5 and anyone that reads my posts regular would know how much I want GT5 to be fantastic game. My point is simply to do wiith the statement that no matter what the next GT game is like, you'll love it and you'll buy it without hesitation. What if the next GT game is a big steaming pile of turd by your standards, not mind, yours. You've basically said, you will love it and buy it anyway, I'm sorry but where is the logic in that? Every game has faults, I don't think any game doesn't, but that doesn't mean you will love every game. There is a point where a games faults turn a good game into a poor one, or a poor game into a very poor one ect. I like aspects of GT4, I'd have really loved it to have been a game that captured me more than it did, it just doesn't. But again, the point has nothing at all to do with what I thought of GT4. Will I buy GT5? Probably because the probability of it being a good game is higher than it being a bad game. Will I buy it no matter what? No, if it's crap by my standards then I won't waste my money on it.

 

[Tenacious D]

I suppose I'll quote myself here:

Between Toca 3, GT4 and Forza 1, Forza was the least believable. There were very few times I felt like I was watching racing video in Forza, but every replay in GT4 and Toca had an uncanny realism about it, even with the subpar PS2 graphic capability.

Car behavior in all three games is very good, but Forza lacks in a few areas, such as its, dare I say it, tenacious grip of the road. It's apparent when you leave the track, as the cars stick to the ground and jiggle in sometimes amusing ways as those tires stick to every little undulation. In Toca and GT however, they bounce around dramatically and even flip in Toca. Also, in Forza, the cars refuse to lean around turns except in the most extreme maneuvers, even unmodified civilian cars which should wobble like a spring bed.

Just from watching replays, the physics in GT HD look even more refined. I'm sure that lacking FFB for now will hurt the immersion and connection to the road, as I felt in Forza, but with subsequent updates this should be fixed. But taking cars around the Eiger in HD is a breathtaking experience, just watching them, and it's the closest to being fooled in a game as I've seen yet. People have already posted of their family asking what race they were watching on the Speed Channel. This is what I'm talking about.

Why do you love GTR and LFS? Because you like PC racers? Did you ever post reservations about GTR2? Or as I recall, were you an enthusiastic supporter of the sequel without so much as a demo to give you a clue as to how it performs?

How is that any different from my position? I've found Gran Turimo in each incarnation to be a progressively more wonderful experience. The fact that you praise GT2 but dog on the superior GT4 only serves to leave me wondering about you. In any case, the flavor of each Gran Turismo is refined and sweetened in each game, just like you feel about GTR and whatever PC game you like. I know what to expect from Polyphony Digital, and they deliver. These games have to please me and meet my expectations, and this is the only opinion and experience that counts.

 

[Dave A]

But this has nothing to do with other games nor is it really tied to GT, it's purely to do with the statment that no matter what the next GT game is (or you can put any other game there) like you will love it, and buy it without hesitation. For the record I do not own GTR2, because I didn't see it as big enough improvment over GTR to warrant spending my money on. I like GTR, and I like GTR2, I just don't think GTR2 was worth my money at this time. Like I siad, I take each game as it comes along, do I have reservations about sequels, yes, all the time. Do I hope that they turn out to be great games, yes all the time. But if they arn't great games will I buy them anyway. No, I won't. You continue to bring in things that have nothing at all to do with the point I'm making, it has nothing to do with what you think of games past or present, it has nothing to do with being an enthusiastic supporter of a not yet released game. And you continue to ignore the one question that answers it. If by your standards the next GT game is crap, will you buy it and love it? I'm not saying the next GT game will be crap, I'm merely pointing out the stupidity in such blanket statments as "I'll love GT no matter what".

 

[Hun200kmh]

However.

If you don't like the game, you really are in the wrong place, and are doing the equivalent of trolling. What would the people and the mods say if I decided to invade the LFS and Enthusia sections to try and school people about how atrocious their games are? "Why should I spend $45 on a hobby build of a so-called game that only has a handful of cars and tracks, almost all fake, which won't even run right?" Do you think maybe my time is better spent on boards with games I actually enjoy?

"If you don't like the game" - What game are you talking about? This is the GT5 forum, right? Well, GT5 isn't out yet, and one can only guess how it will be. All the people here are just saying what their hopes are ... and it makes no sense to me that anyone can say:

a) I'll buy it even if it's crap;
b) I won't buy it even if it's great.

I think everyone knows where GT4 delivered, and where it failed, or at least was less impressive. So, naturally, and considering - at least - the evolution from GT3 to GT4, everyone is assuming that:
a) GT5 will be graphically amazing;
b) races will be much more interesting, because it is certain that they will have many more cars on track;
c) physics will be better;
d) sound will be better;
e) AI will be better;
f) online will be available.

All other features (photomode, race mods, B-Spec, etcwill be add-ons, more or less interesting depending on each gamer's preferences (mine go definitely to day/night and changeable weather during endurance races) but the above listed are the critical ones.

So, here's to hoping.

"What would the people and the mods say if I decided to invade the LFS and Enthusia sections to try and school people about how atrocious their games are?" - They would say, and I would say also, that such a behaviour is unacceptable. Did L4S do that here? There's a thin line between criticizing a game because of it's flaws, and just bashing it for no matter what. I don't know the LFS game (not a PC gamer), but I know the Enthusia one, because I play EPR, more than I do GT4 (a game I got to 100%, btw), and I can assure you that EPR deserves a lot of praise, but also a lot of criticism. Just as GT4. And I don't think I'm bashing either of them, just because I say this. Or do I?

In short, there's nothing wrong in being a fan of a certain game, or series of games. Even if, as such, he/she just won't consider that the next release could not fulfill his/her own's expectations (that's where a fan says "I´ll buy it, no matter what", something I don't understand, but I surely can respect).

But there's also nothing wrong in being a gamer that want's the next game to be what he/she expects, and that expresses some concern about it. And ultimately says "I'll buy it if, by my standards, it'll be the game I want to buy".

just my two cents

 

[Tenacious D]

You continue to bring in things that have nothing at all to do with the point I'm making, it has nothing to do with what you think of games past or present, it has nothing to do with being an enthusiastic supporter of a not yet released game. And you continue to ignore the one question that answers it. If by your standards the next GT game is crap, will you buy it and love it?

I guess I am kind of arguing with you again. But look. I have poked around in your post history a bit which isn't easy because you are a rather prolific poster. But I haven't seen anything like your disdain for Gran Turismo 4 or worry about the sequel in regard to other games. There's no "Oh, I know GTR2 is coming, but we really have no clue what that game will be like." Or "I know you guys are asking for an Enthusia 2 but you have no idea what Konami will do with a sequel."

I have been trying in very lengthy ways to explain why I'm such an enthusiastic fanboy, and unashamedly so, of whatever comes from Polyphony Digital. Let me try some more.

When I finally got around to getting my PS2, I saw Devil May Cry in action and went crazy over it. It's still one of my favorite games. When I saw DMC2, I got it without hesitation. It wasn't the same game for a few significant reasons.

• The development team was different
• The music was handled by someone who did only additional tracks for DMC1
• The control scheme was entirely different, was awkward, and you couldn't configure the buttons! That was bad.

So okay, it wasn't going to have the same flavor as DMC1, and quite a few fans ended up really hating the sequel with a passion. I didn't, I actually enjoyed it a lot, as it was still decidedly Devil May Cry, and the storyline was very good.

So along comes DMC3. Capcom says they're going to give us the sequel to beat all sequels. The game is ambitious. It's long. It's HARD. It's still Devil May Cry. However, the story is like something written by 14 yr olds. The dialog is dreadful. The voice actor doing Dante is painful to listen to. He's an utter tard, not the suave, skillful, cool headed benefactor who gave a damn in the previous games. He surfs a rocket for pete's sake, how much more C Grade can you get?? But... it's still Devil May Cry, it's a fascinating if annoying look into Dante's past, so I got it and kept it. Still have forever to go to beating it because it's damn hard and I love racing a lot more.

Devil May Cry 4 is coming on a far more powerful PS3. Will I buy it, even though it won't feature Dante? Even though I don't know how it will play? You bet.

Take Resident Evil. I know there are about 30 versions of RE1. Okay, in that case I do think Capcom went way too far into milking a game, and a complete collection is only for the die hard fan. But see, there are these other games. Code Veronica. Resident Evil 4. Those games are pretty big deviations from the original formula, but I bought them with only the scantest knowledge of them, and because they were clearly serious games by a good team, I wasn't disappointed.

So let's revisit the Gran Turismo franchise.

• The team is consistent. Sony doesn't wholesale fire PD every incarnation, they only hire new blood.
• The flavor is consistent in every sequel
• With ever more powerful hardware, the game expands in wonderful yet predictable ways.
• The PS3 is a quantum leap over anything but the most bleeding edge computer.
• Kaz-sama has always been wanting to have a platform capable enough to allow him to create a living racing world, and it shows with what he's been able to accomplish with Gran Turismo so far.
• Ne c'est pas?

Okay, so you couldn't do donuts in GT4 so you're pouting. Fair enough. I didn't. I did my best to explain why I didn't. You don't gripe over other games or sequels to the extent you do GT4, so whatever. I'm buying GT5 no matter what. If that makes me stupid, wii.

And Hun200, fair enough.

Oh, and I do have to reiterate the original thread question. Can a racing game go too far in having the best graphics? Only if it keeps the car count low, as in Forza 2. Except in the case of Forza, I think it's a combination of pushing graphics too far along with pushing the physics engine too far - running at 360hz, and the 360 not being as powerful as Turn 10 thought it was. Formula 1 has 22 cars on track, and 11 player online, so I'm expecting some superb things from Gran Turismo 5.

 

[Tenacious D]

I see GT similar to PGR but more "simcadey". I hardly play PGR anymore though.

I think they got the graphics down so please focus on making more of an entertaining game and give all the cars more personality when driving.

I just noticed this. You have to remember that you're pushing some polygons around a screen, not driving a car. If you put a camera into a car and drive it by remote control, you're going to be missing all the tactile feel that makes every car different. In most cases, cars drive and handle rather similarly. It's being in the car which emphasizes those differences to make driving and racing each car a unique experience.

So what is a video game designer supposed to do? If they exaggerate the way a car performs, you have people screaming about how inaccurate certain cars handle. If they make them accurate, people complain that there are no differences between the cars. You have to keep this in mind when you want every car to be different. Either it's not going to be authentic, or it's going to be arcadey.

And as for GT being more simcade than PGR... what the hell?! Sure...

 

[Dave A]

I guess I am kind of arguing with you again. But look. I have poked around in your post history a bit which isn't easy because you are a rather prolific poster. But I haven't seen anything like your disdain for Gran Turismo 4 or worry about the sequel in regard to other games. There's no "Oh, I know GTR2 is coming, but we really have no clue what that game will be like." Or "I know you guys are asking for an Enthusia 2 but you have no idea what Konami will do with a sequel."

That's because I hardly ever posted about GTR2, nor do I post very often about EPR. There's no, "great GTR2 is coming I can't wait either". Infact, the only game I'm like that about is Metal Gear Solid 4, but even then I wouldn't go so far as to say that I'll buy it and love it no matter what. If I play it first and don't like it I won't. Based on past MGS games the chances that I won't like it are very small, but they arn't impossible.

You don't gripe over other games or sequels to the extent you do GT4,

That's becaus eI don't talk about other games as much period. Am I Gran Turismo fan, definitely. I didn't love GT4 though, for all it's pretty graphis and incredible content, it didn't grip me or keep me intereted. I like GT4 and I do defend it when it's attacked by forza fanboys and I do see why other people love it but the flaws GT4 had stood out to me and had a negative effect on my enjoyment of the game. Am I looking forwards to GT5, absolutely, I have high hopes for it, and I hope that it grips me like I wanted GT4 to Do i worry that it won't, after GT4 you bet. Like MGS4, the chances are it will be good enough for me to buy it. I don't post any worries about MGS4 beacause that seires has a 100% track record as far as I've played it, but that isn't a definite I will love it no matter what. I won't buy it if I don't like it. You still havent answered that question though. you've explained how you can overlook certain flaws in a game, but that doesn't exclude the "what if". What if YOU think the game is crap, not if everyone else does and you can overlook thoes flaws, what if it's YOU that can't get any enjoyment from the game.

 

[URBsmkr]

Possibly they have gone overboard with graphics, while the graphics on gthd are truely sick!! After playing NFSC I can't help but notice how boring GTHD is. The graphics are sweet as hell ,but the game is boring.Lets hope the gameplay/is as sick as the graphics when GT5 comes out!!

 

[Tenacious D]

Hrm... lfs, I'll put it this way.

Games have the flavor they do because of the people who build and paint them. Consistent teams deliver consistent games. Occasionally teams will go a radically different direction with their games and alienate their fans, although I'm thinking this is more like a rarity.

Gran Turismo has for me delivered a consistent but progressively more refined driving experience. The team doesn't change much, other than adding to them, so the flavor is fairly consistent from game to game.

Take competing games like Toca and Forza... sorry, but not Need For Speed. Even though the teams designing those games are entirely different and the games are almost entirely different, the driving experience is rather similar. The differences are enough that I enjoy them for what they are and don't grouch over them or minutia of performance. The CRX in Forza however, that is something to gripe about. But I digress.

Another thing is that Polyphony released a truly mouthwatering GT HD demo, which has some much refined graphics and physics. The replays look even more like racing video, indicating to me at least a game which has a more refined driving experience. And for the cockpit cam fiends, it looks like their lust will be fulfilled. I have yet to get a PS3 or the demo obviously, but I expect I won't be disappointed. In fact I think the only disappointment will be if a force feedback patch is slow to come, but I got used to it in Forza so I don't think this will be an issue, especially with such detailed graphics.

To be honest, I don't think it's possible for Polyphony to mess up Gran Turismo. I don't feel the disappointment you do over GT4. I'm still in awe of the game. It delivers things I wish every racer did. Just like GTR2, SimBin can only improve the game in my opinion. The only thing that might be a radical departure for the GT series is for Gran Turismo 5 to go hard core realism, and I think everyone would agree that would be a good thing.

Short answer, I think it's metaphysically impossible for Kaz and the lads to screw up GT5. But we'll be seeing a Prologue this fall, so you can get your reviewer hat on and tell us the straight poop, liveforspeed style.

 

[dunkee]

And as for GT being more simcade than PGR... what the hell?! Sure...

Came out wrong..meant GT is tougher to drive than PGR so more of a sim than cade, PGR is more cade than sim (thats prob more confusing but w/e) I am partial...I want PD to make the best damn racing game ever dreamt but if they do Ima have to shell out $$$ to experience that so I'd rather them not and be content w/ Forza

 

[Raitziger]

I think GTHD graphics are what we expected after much hype around the console,a true HD game.
Race between forza 2 and gthd when it comes to "driving feel" will be a race between g25 and the MS wheel. I hope PD pays enough attention maximase performance of g25 and other logitech wheels.

 

[Greycap]

After playing NFSC I can't help but notice how boring GTHD is. The graphics are sweet as hell ,but the game is boring.

Oh yes, of course you expected a free "drive a car around a single track" demo to have lots more content and things happening in it than a payware "rice a car and race it" game? Sure...

- R -

 

[Tenacious D]

Came out wrong..meant GT is tougher to drive than PGR so more of a sim than cade, PGR is more cade than sim (thats prob more confusing but w/e) I am partial...I want PD to make the best damn racing game ever dreamt but if they do Ima have to shell out $$$ to experience that so I'd rather them not and be content w/ Forza

Okay, that makes more sense.

However, you don't have to worry about a huge GT5 being too expensive. I have been thinking that if GT5 is a big game, perhaps even bigger than GT4, that it could possibly be $70. If it was, I'd buy it anyway, and be uproariously happy. But since GT5 is practically guaranteed to sell multiple millions of copies and sell PS3s along with it, I think Sony is going to stick with a $59 price like all the other games. GT games have always made money for Sony. It's one of their premier franchises, and to date have sold about 45 MILLION copies in all versions, including 8 million of GT4 and climbing. In the list of all-time million seller games of all formats, Gran Turismo 3 A-Spec and Gran Turismo 4 are at the #1 and #5 spots. I'm sure that GT5 will make Sony plenty of money so they won't have to charge a premium price.

 

[fasj6418]

this discussion is almost the same as i had at neogaf...

here´s what i posted:

"i know. they have a very good track record of having the best visuals for a racing game in each generation. i remember the wow factor after seeing GT1 and GT3.

those car models are absolutely gorgeous, even tough it´s running in a beefed up engine of GT3 (GT3 engine = GT4 engine = GTHD = GT4 high res). so i start to wonder...

every switch of generation we ask how far can they go, and sometimes a lot of features miss the cut.

GT5 will have:

new graphics engine
1080p
60fps
damage
22 cars on screen at once
effects like heat and fog coming out of the cars
modeled backgrounds

so i question: can they do that with those car models? it seems like a long shot, even for the ninjas of PD. i can´t wait for them to show something of GT5. and i hope they only release it when its ready...

that means 2009 or christmas 2008"

so what do you guys think? PS3 can handle all that?

 

[Tenacious D]

It depends. The GT HD demo uses a lot of effects and close to real graphics, but it's a single car game. The car seems to use "per vertex" lighting and shading which I believe means that light and shadow is calculated by the polygon facet. This is faster and not as CPU hungry, but it gives you jaggie artifacts sometimes. The most realistic way is what's called "per pixel" lighting, where light is calculated for each pixel, which is also a lot more processor intensive. Another thing is the matter of how many polygons each car is going to have. You can manage to have a very good looking car model with 15-20,000 polygons, but many people think Polyphony is shooting for more like 100,000. More polygons rendering a photoreal car can be taking. Yet another factor is the color depth. The more realistic the color, say 20 bit, and the more work the processor has to do to paint all those gradations. Another factor is artificial intelligence, building and managing as much as 20 artificial personalities and having them drive those cars in a believable way can give the CPU fatigue syndrome if it isn't coded efficiently. Taxing the console too much means either physics and framerate suffers, or cars have to be cut back. Speaking of physics, the more properties you embed into each model, the more work the engine has to do hauling around piston dynamics, intake fluid physics, tire modelling, crash modelling, inertia modelling, etc... it's a lot of work for a console to crunch.

However, look at Formula 1. It has amazing almost photoreal graphics which are very close to GT HD in quality running at 720p@60fps, and it features damage modelling, time of day, weather and astounding rain effects, great physics, and up to 11 players online. And it's a near launch first generation game.

Polyphony is probably being lavished with all the technical support of SONY and IBM engineers both, and who knows how long they've been working on the game? I'm not sure how many cars will finally be on the track when the finished game launches. Fewer will undoubtedly be on the rally stages.

I will say that after playing Toca 3 for a couple of weeks, it's nice to see a track filled with 20 cars or more, though on those races where it's as few as 8, it's not so bad. If Kaz and the lads can manage 12-16 cars on asphalt and 4-8 on rally courses, all with at least the quality of GT HD, I'll be more than happy. And I think they can do it.